loss of life

[SoheilsX]

im not sure whether this has been discussed already or not but how is this rts going to hand loss of life, if they were going to stay true to WH40k then they would hafta force a game over onto you after your 1000th loss of life if you are space marines. That is unless you are able to control more than one chapter, even still though , some people will eventually find ways to kill over 1000 and thats where things go wrong. There are only 1000 marines in each chapter. Also, building units? Impossible, wouldnt fit, what i can understand though is something where you request backup squads, or they are periodically given to you through drop ships or what not.


Any comments? Feel free.

[madmerchant]

If this game is based on an RTS, then you're probably right about insta-space marines. Sadly, I'd forgo the 'unrealistic' building units quickly if it enhanced the game.

I mean, come on! If you play 40k, you'll probably lose 20-30 marines per game, and if you've been playing for a few years, thats a whole chapter....

[Civik]

Well, you have to remember, because a model is slain in the 40k board game doecen't necessarily mean they were killed. It just means they were incapacitated beyond the ability to continue in the battle.

from what I've heard, a turn in 40k comes out to about 2 seconds of realtime combat. So in all, 2 whole hours is spent going over a total of 12 seconds of combat.

Which seems kinda strange that you'd lose so many marines in such a short period of time... I've done it easily with bad dice rolls though.

[EnderWiggin]

Well what are them um.....the people int eh white armor do I can't remember there name he is in the command squad box for SM. Aren't they suppose to collect the geneseed if a SM dead and then implant it into someone else?

[DarthFelth]

yep, he is, anyways, very chaptors have been wiped out, some yes, most of them recover because they can always find people to recruit, i mean how many planets does the imperium control, please, you are going into way to much detail for a game

[Maximus Decimus]

well i think such a cap would be stupid as the ENTIRE mission of the games would be then kill 1000 space marines etc etc etc. If they ever included different chapters in the game this cap would have to be changed accordingly cause for example the Space Wolves have 12 Great Companies and each has a wolf lord and 1000 soldiers, the fang also mass produces weapons, armor, etc so for each chapter ud have to change the cap. this is a dumb idea but i would like it so casualties r felt in the game so it doesnt become one big cannon fodder fest. Say having rienforcements come slowly and not so quickly would help to resolve this.

[DarthFelth]

great companies dont have a 1000 space marines, i think its nearer a 100 well someone told me they were like 120 marines in each but hey, i dont believe him, he worked in games workshop colchester and his name was phil, if anyone has ever meet him, they know why, according to him he had the entire chaptor at his house then "his girlfriend" smashed them all up hope yay read this phil

[Maximus Decimus]

i think u are mistaken as each company has its host of infantry, heavy support, artillery, elites, HQ etc. while each vanilla chapter company is usually specialized such as the 1st being all elites and priests and stuff, then another being reserve, another being tanks, etc etc etc. It takes one great company to siege an entire planet and in the SoB book i believe at the invasion of the fang a great company returned to slaughter the entire fleet and might of whoever was trying to carve his own empire. the great company did not use gorilla tactics(that was used by the skeleton crew of the fang). i also read somewhere that a great company is the equivilent of a chapter. i will try to find the reference source at a later date.

[dewolfe]

Also remeber that the Space Wolves have only ever (in current fluff at least) had one successor (sp) chapter, the Wolf Brothers, and it was disbanded. Considering the fairly small amount of fighting they did during the Heresy (compared to Legions like the Blood Angels, Salamanders, etc.) I'd say that they would have a much bigger chapter than most others (the only notable exception being the Black Templars, who are believed to be near legion strength, but spread all over the galaxy on crusades acting indipendently from each other).

[Zigguratei]

*Cracks Knuckles* Okay first..

Space Wolves are pretty much the same as they were when they were back in the days of legion. Meaning that they most likely have 1000 SM per company. The practically gave the finger to being a "codex" chapter because, well they are space wolves. (Don't ask)

Second.. I will quote Peregrinus from the "Anyone else hate marines thread"

Originally posted by Peregrinus
Remember that your typical 40K game represents a small chucnk of one localised skirmish line. Optimally, in war, you want to keep direct close-range combat with the enemy to a minimum, except where necessary. Infantry are used to take and hold objectives long enough to allow the artillery to move up and continue laying waste to the enemy. Historically, that's what Marines have been used for -- taking beachheads and storming enemy strongholds. They charge in and then it's up to the army to hold onto what they take. It's the army that has to worry about supply lines and rearguard and building battlefield structures and so on. So in a 40K game, you're looking at either a strategic objective being fought over or a place where two armies have accidentally met and are now trying to deny each other the same piece of real estate. Also, a typical 40K game represents at most about a minute or so of "real time". There's a lot that led up to the tabletop situation you have in a game, and a lot more yet that happens after you pack up.

Another thing that's usually forgotten is, casualties aren't usually straight out dead (not counting insta-kills). The number of wounds a model has only represents the amount of pain they can stand before they're no longer capable of fighting. A Marine with one wound gets shot in the leg and spends the next few seconds not shooting and looking down at where he just got shot to see if it's anything serious or some such. Heroes with three wounds know what it feels like to get shot or hacked a bit and keep going despite injury until it piles up enough that they have to stop and call for an Apothecary, since they can't raise their right arm any more. Actually, that reminds me... One of the things I liked about 1st Edition was the wound chart for Imperial medics. You rolled d100 on it for each of your casualties to determine the location, severity, and consequences of the damage once the medics got to them (if possible). F'r instance, 36-40 indicates a severe wound to the left arm. Down time is 2/4 turns the model must remain stationary while being treated -- but they can still fire weapons. The first number indicates the down time of Marines, the second that of other Imperial troops. Game penalty (for the remainder of the game) is -3 shooting to hit with weapons held in that or both hands and -2 WS. And wound effects were cumulative. Made things quite interesting.

Point is, the fluff tends to take a much broader view of things than what you see on the tabletop. Those of you familiar with Epic will know that a 40K game represents one turn of one three-inch by two-inch chunk of the battle line. That really limits the scope, but not necessarily the importance, of what you accomplish in a game.

--Jonah

If I remeber correctly from 1st Ed.. about 90% of your space marines get back up after being "incapacitated". The white guy in the command squad is called an Apothocary btw. And not only retreives the geneseed from your fallen marines, but functions as a medic, this all added onto the AMAZING regenative powers of a space marine.. They spit acid and don't need sleep for pete sake!

[Maximus Decimus]

bravo, pt proven. The high lords as stated in fluff cant rlly do much to rlly "command" the space wolves and the space wolves have never excepted the codex astartes. they do what they want and as quoted from GW "if u want them to do something command them not to do it" lol.

[Riker717]

id like to see the marine take a impact hit and fly a few feet and then smash into the ground where he would stay.

That gave me a thought. If a marine would indeed stay where he fell a nice gameplay element could be introduced with an apothocary. There could be a 1000 unit cap for the entire single player campain(SM only), and a cap(points or not) for each individual battle or mission. If u lost a marine in battle u would lose a marine out of the total, but with an apothocary u could heal a wounded marine or recover the geensead of a dead marine(and not lose anything from the total). The caps of the individual missions would have to be worked out well to avoid the player losing to many troops earlier in the game and not having enough for the last batle. The impact would be felt on the unit classes ie "iv lost too many assult marines over the course of the campain, im going to have to change my tactics to include more tactical marines". Of course this would lead to players trying to do every mission perfectly but i think u could get around this by using a devilish autosave system(i always thought u could make it autosave when ever the player pressed ctrl alt del or ctrl esc) or simply by making the game too hard to do perfectly in every mission.

[Maximus Decimus]

wow thats a great idea, i like the geneseed recover aspect to regain ur cap cause healing marines wouldnt be right so they walk right back up and fight again. this in multiplayer could offer alot of strategy like after winning a major battle u can hold ur ground and set up camp to rob the enemy player of his precious geneseed. this combined with controlling supply locations to generate rienforcements would make it rlly strategic especially if u can fortify those locations.

[DarthFelth]

yeah geneseed wouldnt really effect it, you would have to find someone to inplanet it, and wait for all the organs to grow, then send him out to be a scout (bloodclaw for spae wolves) the rest is a damn good idea.

as on Space Wolves, i have no idea how big they are, they wernt that big in the heresy from what i remeber, i do remeber in epic that the companies were 120men, unlike marines, but yeah, man thats why i love space wolves, i mean the space wolves are way to inportant to try bring into control, i mean, they would just give the imperium the finger and leave.

As for the Wolf brothers, didnt they have a geneseed problem, like all the new marines rejected it or something

[Riker717]

well i just thought it was a nice way to incorprate some of the fluff into game mechanics, as alot of the time it is very contradictory. I wonder if the dev team are listening

[DarthFelth]

hehe, i hope so, was saying it was a bad idea, dont get me wrong

[Maximus Decimus]

in epic(never tried it but am meaning to after the new release) the marine companies may be 120 men CUASE it would totally unbalance the game if they were 1000 right? and as i stated a company of marines is specialized cause u have ur reserve company, ur scout company, HQ, etc. that number is used probebly to balance things. while a space wolf great company is a entire military force that has a little bit of everything. lol space wolves would give em the finger and leave. if uv read the index astartes on the 13th company the imperium fears if the space wolves take back their lost brothers that another great civil war could occur. all non vanilla marine 1st founders or 1st founders period would probebly see the high lords as corrupt and join their brothers of old(space wolves) to reclaim the imperium from the high lords who wish to destroy them. High lords are currently tolerate of death company and all other non codex chapters cause they would not want to start a war but if they branded the wolves heretics then there would be a great civil war.

representing the geneseed idea in game is reasonable cause they could wave the brith of space marines to make the game more fun cause u dont wanna wait there for a hour while new recruits r being trained, otherwise a unit cap would be retarded where when u lose ur forces u lose. games have tried that approach and alot of ppl got pissed cause no rienforcements etc.
wonder how they r gonna balance say marine vs ork in game, they may do what starcraft did and have 2 orks cost as much as one(or whatever if using my approach suggested in the wishlist[rienforcements]) like get 2 times as many each time u get forces but 1 marine can take 2 orks.

[z-beam]

maxi... your words of speculation might be omens of what we will see very soon...

considering that the defence of the cadian gate command was givin to the space wolves and the lost founding turned up (the wulfen) i think it was the dark angels who refused to fight beside the wolves forces and where off doing there own thing.

some have speculated the return of the primarchs, which would indeed allow far greater number of marines due to direct samples of genetic information rather than the seed stock that is slow to reproduce.

[Maximus Decimus]

dark angels didnt refuse to fight along side wolves infact at the end i believe they came and fought for a while together but the dark angels ignored commands from the imperium and went to go defend the ruins of Caliban from chaos. they never stated what happened to Logan Grimnars Great Company, last time i checked they said they preformed planetfall with their drop pods and landed on Cadia before the battle was lost. some red shirts(never trust em) said that if chaos totally won then the primarchs(alive wons) well some of them would of came back to defend the imperium but only fluff wise. i dont know why they made the C'tan actual models in the game cause i think that was a stupid idea and is almost as bad as putting primarchs in the game cause it would unbalance things. i guess they toned the nightbringer down for the game.

[Anthonace]

from what i've read the primarches are all dead from falling in battle (exept for a few chaos ones)
are c'tans the embodiment of a Necron god on the battlfeild?

[SoheilsX]

You guys are forgetting that there are thousands of world, and if they take just 5 recruits from each planet, thats enough people to start up another 5 chapters. They NEVER stop recruiting.
I would actually like to see something at the end of each mission where it would tally up how many marines were recovered based upon the damage inflicted and number of Apocs. on the field, so building them would be important.

[SoheilsX]

Originally posted by Anthonace
from what i've read the primarches are all dead from falling in battle (exept for a few chaos ones)
are c'tans the embodiment of a Necron god on the battlfeild?

Nope sorry, I know that some of the primarchs are actually is a "Frozen" status being slowly healed until one day when the emperor needs them again.
I know Lion El' Johnson is buried under the rock and i think the primarch of the ultramarines is is a special type of crystal which freezes time inside of it, but the neat thing is that they say his scars are healing in there. There are a few more primarchs, mainly the most famous ones hidden around the galaxy awaiting a call from the god and leader of humanity so that one day they can once again destroy the cancer that is chaos.

[SoheilsX]

Originally posted by Maximus Decimus
dark angels didnt refuse to fight along side wolves infact at the end i believe they came and fought for a while together but the dark angels ignored commands from the imperium and went to go defend the ruins of Caliban from chaos. they never stated what happened to Logan Grimnars Great Company, last time i checked they said they preformed planetfall with their drop pods and landed on Cadia before the battle was lost. some red shirts(never trust em) said that if chaos totally won then the primarchs(alive wons) well some of them would of came back to defend the imperium but only fluff wise. i dont know why they made the C'tan actual models in the game cause i think that was a stupid idea and is almost as bad as putting primarchs in the game cause it would unbalance things. i guess they toned the nightbringer down for the game.

Dark angels were headed on their way home from the battle when they were attacked by the planetary defenses of their homeplanet. It would seem that the remaining force of DA's left to defend their world were turned against their brothers by the man left in charge of the operation, a good friend of the primarch.
Yadda yadda yadda, primarch fought hard, some shit happened, world blew up, only the rock was left. Ya, i love the dark angels . Also, ppl think that that is their dark secret, its not, their secret is that The Lion is under the rock /

[z-beam]

the primarchs are alive and well. just frozen. couldn't say the same for the emperor tho. if you have read ian watsons' inquisitor sereis there is some grousome details of thousands of blinded and bound psychic children that are sacrificed each day so there essence can feed the emperor and astronomicon beacon. so he is essentially undead, a vampire.

so i dont know how the primarchs would awnser his call, let alone be as prepared for battle as the chaos primarchs which are all mighty demon princes now. as an old ultrasmurf player i think it would be very interesting to go to battle with an allmighty primarch on the feild, especially if the were nice big and really inspirational pieces.

thanx all for your quick reply, it is good to be able to talk with those who have some good knowledge of the subject.

[No Surrender]

SoheilsX, don't tripple post. There is an "Edit" button. Use it.

SoheilsX, 1st post: The reason the Space Marines never stop recruiting is that they always take losses and those losses need to be replaced. New Chapters are rarely, if ever, created these days because only the Emperor can give the order for the creation of a new chapter and the Emperor can't/communicates very little. Also. The geneseed of a Space Marine cannot be created. It is grown in existing marines and harvested when they die.

The Primarch Leman Russ disappeared and the Primarch of the White Scars was sucked into the realm of the dark eldar.

so he is essentially undead, a vampire.

How dare you refer to the Emperor in this way?! Without the most benificiant emperor of Terra the Imperium would fall.

[z-beam]

this concept of gene seed as a resource and unit cap is a nice idea, but it only works for the marines. this is a good thing because each army needs to have separate goals/needs to make them play differently.

lets look at orks fo instance. the are a type of sentient fungus and can create energy just by being in the sun because of photosynthesis (yes i know fungus really doesnt use this process but orks do) so all the greenskins need is salvaged metal for weapons air to breathe (i think) sunlight and other vegitation for there underling food beasts e.g. squigs and grots(lesser goblins) and snotlings. this would mean the orks must farm there food and go kroozin to find junk for there mekboys to work with.
as far as a life total i would think that the orks wouldnt need a campaign life total as they breed so fast. but i definatly think that certain life/resource concepts are necissary to acheive a good game.

tyranids on the other hand send out genestealers aboard hulks (giant chunks of dead space vessels) that eventually make land fall and use local populations to reproduce, which eventuates into firstly mutant crossbreeds, then purestrains and finally a big psychic 'stealer that sends impulses that the hive fleet pick up. thats when all the other gribly's arive and after a month or two the whole planet is picked dry of all organic matter.

if tyranids are one of the playable races it will be realistic to be limited by what "food" has been devoured, for information and for pure material building suplies. this "food" would be your life, so a unit cap would have to be very different for each race.

one final note, all cratures adapt strategies in order to be more succesful, orks create huge mobs because they farm and get too numerouse in one spot so they instictivly go start a waaaagh! to find and take over new territory... so an ork player might be defensive untill reaching a point where they feel comfortable to crush the enemy with theyre superior numbers . because of being able to farm all the resorces they need then there is no harvester involved (except for the occasional humourouse grot munching) and so a true defensive style can be adapted (untill the time is right!!!).

the imperial armies (codex ) do what they are told by the terran lords, or just wish to rid the galaxy of heretical and alien scum.

and as stated before the tyranids are verrryy hungry, all the small creatures are basically the teeth of the hive mind who chew up anything and everything.

[z-beam]

i say the emperor is a vampire because all of his children (the primarchs) have special abilities and the whole inquisition is deluded because of its hunger for power. sanguinius legion is the most important symbol of this hipocrosy. the blood is the life, and the emperor is adicted to the spirits of children mentally corrupted by the powers of the warp.

[Maximus Decimus]

Dark angels were headed on their way home from the battle when they were attacked by the planetary defenses of their homeplanet. It would seem that the remaining force of DA's left to defend their world were turned against their brothers by the man left in charge of the operation, a good friend of the primarch....

lol we know that but thanks for the little bit of history anyway. the guy and i were refering to EOT not the heresy. yeah there r 3 version of where RUSS went. they all suggest he is alive though

lol growing orks on farms would be awesume for orks lol id love to see that. nids in game idea work as well, all these ways of doing things would make the game very strategic and u wouldnt see players using marines for cannon fodder. for starcraft in example there is no sense of value, u send everything if they die they die if they dont they dont, there is almost no reason to try and retreat in the game cause value is not a issue. relic should deal with this as they have in homeworld.

[dewolfe]

the blood is the life, and the emperor is addicted to the spirits of children mentally corrupted by the powers of the warp.

The Black Ships of the Inquisition scourge the galaxy for psykers. Ones who are resistant and can control themselves either become Astropaths/Santioned Psykers or are recruited by the Inquisition. Those who are weak and vulnerable to daemonic possession, causing untold harm to themselves and those around them are sacrificed to the Emperor. He's doing them a favour

Now, on to the Primarches. Going by memory, the current status of them are as follows:

Lion El'Jonson - currently in a secret chamber deep within the Rock. Was taken there by the Watchers after his battle with Luthor/Luther (spelling changes over different sources), and once the Lion Sword (believed to be carried by Cypher) is repaired, he will awaken.

Fulgrim - Daemon Prince.

Perturabo - Daemon Prince.

Jaghatai Khan - Returned to the White Scars' homeworld to find that the Dark Eldar had enslaved most of his people. Started kicin' ass and takin' names. Chased the Eldar back into the webway with his first company - webway portal then closed. His whereabouts are currently unknown.

Leman Russ - One gathering, he got up and left with his Wolfguard, leaving the then young (and now a Dreadnought) Bjorn the Fellhanded in command of the chapter. Promised to return at "the Wolftime". His armour has been found, but his body wasn't in it. His whereabouts are currently unknown.

Rogal Dorn - Old fluff=his skeleton is on display in the Emperor's Palace. New fluff=he led a strike cruiser on a suicide run against a chaos fleet. They won the day, but most (all?) of the marines were dead by the time reinforcements arrived. Only Dorn's skeletal hand was ever found. Probably dead.

Konrad Curze - Let himself be assassinated. Dead.

Sanguinius - Killed by Horus. Dead.

Ferrus Manus - Killed on Istvaan IV. Some sources say his body was taken to Mars, and the Iron Hands believe that one day he'll return. Probably dead.

Angron - Daemon Prince.

Roboute Guilliman - Was injured and badly poisoned by Fulgrim in a post Heresy bout. Poison would kill him, but he was placed in stasis. Pilgrims claim he's slowly healing, but that's highly improbable (nothing's impossible in Wh40k). If they ever drop the stasis field, he's dead.

Mortarion - Daemon Prince.

Magnus the Red - Daemon Prince.

Horus - Killed by Emperor.

Lorgar - Daemon Prince.

Vulkan - No record of his death. Possibly still alive, but if so no longer fights.

Corax - After creating monstrosities to save his legion, he locked himself in his room. When they finally broke down his door, they found that he'd moseyed on over to the Eye of Terror, leaving only the words 'Nevermore'. Probably dead.

Alpharius - Let himself be killed by Roboute Guilliman during the Heresy to promote individual leadership in his Legion. Dead, although knowing Alpharius (we're old drinking buddies ) it could have been a trick.

Anyway, hope that helped the discussion!

[DarthFelth]

i think sanguinius will be reborn, and thats what the black rage us really about just look at mephiston (or however its spelt

[z-beam]

as for dorn, his hand would not stop a full recovery. bionics....

feth: sanguinius could definatly be reborn i reckon.

thankyou dewolf for the info. some very interesting facts.

once again i would i would love to have a figure of purtabo to lead my iron warriors to victory....

[Zigguratei]

Almost right.. I feel the need to insert three small works. [EDIT] thats.. WORDS..

Konrad Curze - Let himself be assassinated. Assumed to be Dead.

( The Assassins vid log did not show his body nor was one found at the scene.. AND it was to show that he had been right all the time.. AND he knew it was coming..)

[No Surrender]

The Primarch of the World Eaters (Angron?) was killed by a the Grey Knights of the Ordo Malleus during the First War for Armageddon.

[Riker717]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by z-beam
[B]this concept of gene seed as a resource and unit cap is a nice idea, but it only works for the marines. this is a good thing because each army needs to have separate goals/needs to make them play differently.


I would say that in an eldar campain you would have a total cap depending on the population of the craftworld(you could harvest there soul when they die) and in an ork campain you would have an unlimited total cap making there campain very different from the others. I thought a cool ork campain could be that the tyranid hive mind has targeted the huge population of orks through out the galaxy for consumption. WAAAAGH kill dem bugs.

I am thinking there will only be three playable races in single player campains(SM, eldar+ orks?) but i hope it isnt just a war between these three. I want each campain to have a main "evil" protagonist(sp?) who u could play as in skirmish or multiplayer(chaos, dark eldar+tyranids.).

[z-beam]

the eldar idea is good, the other option in adition for the eldar are the soulstones. they could be used to increase the skill of current warrior or be made into a wraithgaurd or wraithlord.

the other important rescource for eldar is wraithbone, which grows very slowly and is promoted and shaped by bonesingers.these characters could also repair damadged vehicles.

im not sure however if the eldar are capable of recycling this substance.

[dewolfe]

Almost right.. I feel the need to insert three small works. [EDIT] thats.. WORDS..
Konrad Curze - Let himself be assassinated. Assumed to be Dead.
( The Assassins vid log did not show his body nor was one found at the scene.. AND it was to show that he had been right all the time.. AND he knew it was coming..)

Of any of the Primarches, I thought Curze was one of the coolest (a lot like the original Batman, before he got all hollywood). But it just seems to me that if he's still alive, he wouldn't have been moving around in secret for 10 000 years (give or take - I don't recall his date of dispatch). Surely any plan that he would have had has come to fruition.

Now Alpharius, there's a bloke who would still be stalking the shadows - pity he hasn't called me since the end of the Heresy (I'm blaming the astropaths for the delays)

The Primarch of the World Eaters (Angron?) was killed by a the Grey Knights of the Ordo Malleus during the First War for Armageddon.

If I'm not mistaken, he was banished to the warp for 100 (1000?) years and a day (I remember that 'one day'). His waiting is up though, and boy, is he back!...but umm...hasn't really done anything, so...yeah...

LOOK! An obvious distraction!


...



...



...



BOO

[z-beam]

so theres another potential daemon primarch to add to the list of possible totally cool models.

back to the gameplay tho...

do you reckon units will have life bars or colour coded numbers to represent hit points?

and also if hit points are going to be used then they might use simple equations like toughness multiplied by wounds to create the HP total?

[Anthonace]

Originally posted by z-beam
and also if hit points are going to be used then they might use simple equations like toughness multiplied by wounds to create the HP total?

That would end up in having most units using a Hp of 4 or sometimes 3

Edit : why don't the Space marines embark on a new primarch project?

[DarthFelth]

the World eaters Primach is a Daemon prince, he was just banished back to the warp

[Maximus Decimus]

please read all the posts concerning that as dewolfe has already stated and resolved the matter. he has been banished for 1000 yrs.

[DarthFelth]

yeah, so he isnt dead, banished, thankyou and good night

[SoheilsX]

Originally posted by Anthonace

That would end up in having most units using a Hp of 4 or sometimes 3

Edit : why don't the Space marines embark on a new primarch project?

New primarch project?
Simple, noone has a body powerful enough to hand the power of a primarch, it cannot be recreated.
ALSO! They say that the emperor will fight again once he a body strong enough has been found. Currently i believe that there is a child that has been found that is unbelievably strong in faith. Only time my friends, and then the savior and god of mankind will stand once again and with his fist smite the daemonic.
Seriously though, if you read the fluff, just saying his true name is enough to make most daemons wince in pain. The inquisitors actually have an "attack" called Words of the Emperor where their faith alone is enough to make daemons flee in terror. Not to mention the fact that if the emperor was to fight again just seeing him on the battlefield would be enough to kill thousands of daemons. When he comes back theres gonna be hell to pay, and some serious ass whooping. Expect to see Greater daemons fall before him like nothing.

[DarthFelth]

hmm, well all i say is Horus wasnt even a daemon prince and he mortlay woundered the emperor, what would a daemon prince Primach do...

[z-beam]

darth, nice call. a normal daemon prince is made up of material manifested from the warp but a daemon primarch is as much physical as it is warp material. i think the next edition and even this new rts (if it is a part of the new editions story e.t.c.) could do with some serious new power players on the battlefield.

[Maximus Decimus]

hmm, well all i say is Horus wasnt even a daemon prince and he mortlay woundered the emperor, what would a daemon prince Primach do...

srry to say but a deamon prince would fail utterly. if u read the original discriptive battle u will note that the emperor was holding back the entire time until he saw the terminator perish by the hand of horus. u will also note that all 4 gods were fueling all their power into horus while the battle was going on, if horus wasnt like a son to the emperor then the emperor would walk amongst mortals today but that tragic day he held back believing that horus could turn around. once the emperor saw horus for what he was he took the power he had left from the battle and kill horus. a regular deamon prince would dissolve by the hands of the emperor like blowing sand out of ur hand.

[DarthFelth]

depends which version you read, i mean the battle changes as much as the rules do

[Maximus Decimus]

well its changed twice or thrice but todays version(scaled down for the little kids) is that there was this big epic battle between the two using all realms blah blah blah and horus lost. for us older guys we all know what rlly went on in the room, what they did is just leave out the specific details of what happened.

note a deamon primarch has ONLY the favour of his god while horus had all 4 gods fueling him with power but all was lost for chaos that day. horus can easily take on any deamon primarch while having the gods behind him otherwise then his just a regular primarch.

Horus was a fool,
Horus was weak,
He had the entire galaxy within has grasp
and let it all slip away

[DarthFelth]

horus cant on any daemon primach, he dead, also note, its different being a daemon prince than favoured, just look in the codex for daemonic statue as an example, all yay need is a nice khorne one, and your away

[Maximus Decimus]

lol i was saying if he was. its alot easier for the emperor to destableize and banish a deamon to the warp(in this case wipe him from existence) then it is a corporial being. note horus could of been a deamon but then he could not be favoured and fueled by all 4 chaos gods energies therefore dieing and he probebly knew the imperium wouldnt accept him then but yeah he would of been lamb chops if he was. a favoured primarch like horus is much more powerful then a dprimarch who is fueld by one god alone. khorne lol khornes cool hes my fav chaos god...i mean what! die heretic! die!

[DarthFelth]

Abaddon is, he ant that special