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Relic did this with Homeworld and I think it would be pretty cool in Dawn of War...
Allow players to customize their Space Marines colors (or other factions) and apply insignias to the shoulder pads.
Want Ultramarines? Got em. Blood Angels? No problem....
yeah that would be good, wev discussed this in the wishlist thread i believe. yeah at least u could get the marines to resemble ur fav chapter even though ur missing the special units, assets on a marine, etc. yeah it would be good and i think there could be a chance they do it but how would they apply the colors to tanks?.
also if you choose a chapter like space wolfs, have there special units like long fangs
And if you choose Dark Angels you have the Deathwing, if you choose Black Templars you have the Chamion if you choose Ultramarines you have tyranid hunters...
Don't overstretch it. There can be no special unit for every special chapter.
#5
Look, if the SM get chapter specific stuff, I want the Imperial Guard to get Special units for every regiment there is. I also want the Eldar to have units unique to every CraftWorld. See what I'm getting at? Either just have generic Chapters or don't have SMs at all.
well to tell ya space marines are gonna be in there and they are games workshops goldmine after all. i highly doubt that there will be any chapter specific stuff becuase then ud have to do what u suggest to every other race featured and its too much work for a game with a development cap of 2 yrs. so u probebly wont see that dark angle, space wolf, blood angle stuff. the original idea was to have customizable colors for all races like in homeworld which would be great but may cause problems translating to tanks and dreads.
No surrender, you just dont like marines, just deal with it
Originally posted by badass
also if you choose a chapter like space wolfs, have there special units like long fangs
Thats probably asking for a bit too much. Lets at least hope for a skinning tool where were can dress our marines in our fav chapter colors. They may all be the same power wise but at least they will look like Space Wolves, Ultras, Dark Angels ,etc.
yes that is true and i tried to pt out that its unreasonable to include such things at initial release in my other posts.
i was more hoping on modders, i hope its like in hw2 were you can add new races, then atleast you can still use the default one
#11
Darth, I do not hate the Space Marines. I hate Space Marine players who think "The Space Marines are so great because they're genetically engineered and superior to normal humans, Relic should spend time creating SM chapters rather than working on other races"
i definetly said that was totally unreasonable(SWs for me) but fluffwise space marines are awesume u gotta give us that at least, fun stories to read, not that im saying that other races arnt cool too...except mybe those orks lol jk. now lets get back to topic and stop stereo typing everybody cause if we did that we can say eldar players complain cause of tau, tau complain they need snipers even though its not even fluffy(they cannot focus well), blah blah blah etc etc etc so stop stereo typing ppl.
Well, in Relic's defense, it would be easier to alter the standard marine model than, say, create a tyranid army. If you have a great story that fits, a publisher that has a set deadline for you and limited creative flexibility due to contractual agreements, then you go with what will work, get as much content in that you can, then hope it sells well so you can have add-ons at a future point in time.
(And yes, Space Marines are great story wise and play wise, though not in my top 3 armies of choice)
Edit:
And that's ASSUMING that they are doing SMs, CSMs, Orks and Eldar. Who knows what armies are going to be in? Certainly not us.
well i think marines and orks are garanteed cause they wouldnt be featured in the screens if they werent. as for chaos and eldar no one knows and the concept art doesnt qualify as its concept art and the idea may have been dropped, as far as we know it could be necrons and tau in their place.
There is a great connection with the humans/eldar/chaos forces, and could lead to some really epic stories. As far as the orcs, well, they could either be tools being used by chaos forces, or maybe the chaos forces would be acting after the scattered ocs were united under one banner and running amuck through the imperium.
No Surrender, i think what i think of marines cos
1) i actualy look at the stats
2) how they perform
3) perherps i read some of the fluff
Marines are the elite fighting force of the Imperium, that is fluff, they are stronger, faster and tougher than a normal man, even the stats show this, perhaps everything that GW has written has presented this way because, dum dum dum, they are the best of the best, the fact is they were altered for fighting, and if they wernt, what then, Guard have not been, so that perhaps gives them a damn large advantage....
#17
So they're genetically engineered. The IG have the best tanks...
actualy no they dont, marines have the land raider, that is said to be the best tank, i mean it can transport 10 marines, 5 termies and can deal with most tanks and can handel troops, and what anout the land raider Crusder, that can handel tanks and troops and transport even more troops, both having armour 14 all around along with the machine spirit rule, allowing to move and still fire 2 weapons (Crusader firing all it weapons cos of teh machine spirit rule and its bolters)
What about thunder hawks, Vindicators, Dreadnoughts, land speeders, these are all very good units, so no imperial guard dont have the best tanks/vehicles by far my friend
#19
Yes they do. Have you ever heard of a Baneblade? Or a Shadow Sword? The IG have access to super heavy tanks designed to hunt titans. The Land Raider doesn't stand a chance.
actually FLUFF wise the land raider is the deadliest tank of the imperium here ill quote a couple of things ,
its size makes it less unwieldy in battle than the super heavy baneblades, stormhammers, and shadowswords used by the imperial guard, without and significant reduction in protection...including medical facilities, life support, and a shrine to keep spiritual purity....adapted to use almost any fuel type, including gasses, fossil fuel, liquids, and vegetative matter.....provide excellent command and control facilities, allowing the land raider to be a base of operations....- Index Astartes: space marine land raider.its thick armor able to withstand all but the most destructive land based weaponary in the GALAXY. several land raiders can form a defensive line against counterattack or create a near impenetrable enclave inside enemy held territory. its twin linked lascannons(godhammer pattern) are the best tank-busting armament found on a vechile of its size...
- Games Workshop
the super heavys are vulnerable to lascannon fire as anything else and they do not provide all the facilities as the land raider or can do battle in all the environments as the land raider, it is the most versitile tank in the imperium and can deal with any situation as the super heavys are large target specially designed to take titans but will fair the same in battle against armored companies of land raiders as guard regular tanks, the immense size of super heavys is also their disadvantage. A small group of land raiders can take on cities full of enemies and large amount of defences while superheavys are large targets and clumbersome. it is favoured by the imperium to send land raiders in big armored battles rather then super heavys. a lascannon will pierce a superheavy and take it out anyway. read quotes carefully as they do prove my pt that the land raider is the most versitile tank in the imperium.
I guess it depends on what sort of opponents you are going to face. As far as titan removal, take a super-heavy any given day. If it is an anti-tank operation, then a land raider would do the trick.
How about anti-personnel? What would be the tank of choice?
Land Raider Crusader
i agree one hundred percent and yeah a land raider crusader is ur best option for anti-personel.I guess it depends on what sort of opponents you are going to face. As far as titan removal, take a super-heavy any given day. If it is an anti-tank operation, then a land raider would do the trick.
Now, is that for all the races, or just the tanks in the arsenal of humanity? (sm and ig)
Just the Imperium because obviouslly there may be a better xenos tank for such and such a task. this is not open for debate cause it will most likely lead to a horrible argument(no concrete proof saying this tank is better then that tank).
i cant even think of any marine super heavies that i know exsist anymorei dont think they super heavies count as how many 40k super heavies do you own
what r u talking about bud? space marines dont have super heavys and they r not suited for armored conflicts between lots of tanks.
they did in epic, they had one thankyou very much, im sure it was a squat think as well...
#29
The best anti personel tank would be the Leman Russ Exterminator. With a Twin Mounted AC, 3 Hvy bolters and a pintle mounted heavy stubber, the Exterminator can pour out 14 shots a turn. The best tank in a tank to tank conflict would be the Leman Russ Vanquisher. It's cannon can fire devastating AT shells that in game terms is like a range 72" melta gun capable of blowing apart a land raider before it even got a chance to fire it's las cannons.
The Guard don't need medical facilities. If the tank is part of an armourd company then most casualties would burn to death inside their tanks. If it was part of an infantry regiment then the Infantry are expendable anyway......including medical facilities, life support, and a shrine to keep spiritual purity....adapted to use almost any fuel type, including gasses, fossil fuel, liquids, and vegetative matter.
The Imperial Guard have the Improved coms upgrade which in fluff turns a tank into a command tank. It also has things like command Chimeras and Salamander command vehicles.....provide excellent command and control facilities, allowing the land raider to be a base of operations....
Who needs to move to capture objectives when you can sit there and blow the living daylights out of anything and everything. LRs don't have as many or as powerful weapons as a super heavy.its size makes it less unwieldy in battle than the super heavy baneblades, stormhammers, and shadowswords used by the imperial guard, without and significant reduction in protection
Also, super heavies rarly do anything alone, the nature of the IG is to swamp the enemy with as many infantry and tanks as possible. So in a siege, the IG would not send in Bane Blades or Shadow Swords as support. More likely they would use Demolishers, Thunderers and Medusas.
While in no way disrespecting the fomidable Leman Russ and it´s variants... I still must say that the Crusaders max of 18 shots a round (...15 of them twin-linked with a BS of 4...) combined with it´s formidable armour (much better than Russ´ against assault squads as the Crusader doesn´t have a weak angle) would make the Crusader the more formidable tank (not to mention the more expensive one!
As to the general differences between the Russ and the Raider, I´d say that since the two tanks are of such a different variety (for example one of them is used with the support of the rest of the army while the other is a highly specialzed(sp?) unit) I´d say a direct comparison is impossible.
The Land Raider is, wihtout a doubt, the best tank for the kind of specialized(sp?) stuff it´s meant to do (both fluff wise and rules wise) while the Leman Russ is without a doubt the best all-around tank available to the Imperium (both fluff wise and rules wise).
sadly some of that may be logical but ur mistaken, fluff wise the land raider is the tank killer of its class and has the best armor for its class, a exterminator for regiment battles? wtf r u smoking a crusader is far more effiecent and better then the exterminator. for big tank battles the FLUFF SAYS LAND RAIDER IS THE BEST and can out beat any other tank of its class which is top class. hmm vanquisher gets cought on its side armor oh its gone, land raider does crew goes "wha what was that meh" the fluff clearly states the land raider is the tank for tank battles and such. it also has a much higher survivability rating and can survive in harsher conditions.
it was one of the few vechiles that could hold off and even destroy the massice titans...u will see that in the battle of thranx that the tanks u mention would have been crushed uterly. funny how u only respond to the qoutes that u can best defend and not all of them hmm.its ability to fight in almost any imaginable warzone, including seabeds and in highly corrosive atmospheres, meant that it saw more service than any other machine in war.
lol forgot to comment on this one bud
show me somewhere where it says that a small group of leman russ whatever mark can perform like so. if there is a tank battle it will be x land raiders = y number of leman russ mark whatever therefore they are at a 2:1 disadvantage or worse.its thick armor able to withstand all but the most destructive land based weaponary in the GALAXY. several land raiders can form a defensive line against counterattack or create a near impenetrable enclave inside enemy held territory. its twin linked lascannons(godhammer pattern) are the best tank-busting armament found on a vechile of its size...
#32
Yes, Leman Russes are more versitile than LRs but LRs excell at what they are designed for.
@everybody and nobody in general (and all IMHO of course)
Again, I don´t think a direct comparison between the tanks is possible as a Russ would never work alone against a lone Raider (neither fluff- nor rules wise) and despite the advantages of both tanks they both still are quite vunerable and far from invincible.
Gamewise, to be honest, I´d rather have an option for a Russ than any other tank in my HS slot since with a tactical squad to back one up I´d be invincible! Yes... INVINCIBLE!!! ...and am thus quite jealous of Space Wolfs for their HS slots (not to even mention the Long Fangs... grrrr....)
And having said that, I don´t think there can be any doubt that given a situation where a single Raider faced a single Russ (in any enviroment conciveable) the Raider would very likely rumble out as the victor.
It´s a whole different discussion if that alone makes the Raider the better tank though.
if they cannot do what a tank is normally required to do eg storm into heavyly armed area better then another then its not better. the land raider is stated to be the most feared tank in all the imperium. if a land raider can survive in harsher atmospheres and withstand almost any shot from a ground based structure then its better then a leman russ. a couple of land raiders can defend themselves from a entire assault and a near inpenetrable blockade/enclave while a leman russ cant then how can a leman russ be a better tank? note that the original argument was that imperial guard tanks are better then land raiders meaning OVERALL. jesus.
the leman russ's cannot withstand the punishment of land raiders and cannot out preform the land raiders in a battle. has it ever stated that leman russes can do whats been stated above and in my other quotes or that leman russes can take on titans? stop saying that leman russes are better tank and provide me with some proof dammit ala quotes and their source, etc.the land raiders of the adeptus astartes are among the most awe-inspiring sights on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. they are mighty behemoths that crush all before them under adamantium tracks, and their godhammer pattern lascannons are the bane of the enemy vechiles and bunkers. if the imperium's land raiders are objects of such dread then those employed by chaos...blah blah blah
- Index Astartes: Chaos Space Marine tanks/Beasts of Steel.
Chill out dude
First of all, I think I should make it clear that I´m talking about the whole tank issue from three different prespectives ( 1) fluff wise, 2) current rules wise and 3) real-life-armoured-combat-translated-to-a-fantasy-sci-fi-world wise) so let´s take it from there.
1) I haven´t for once disputed the fact that the Land Raider is the armoured combat unit of the 41st century. This is obvious (and has been obvious since the days of Rogue Trader) and is hardly even a topic worthy of discussion.
Having said that, rather than faceless members from a message board providing quotes without sources you should look into the fuff written about the Leman Russ yourself as there is plenty of it available.
2) Rules wise, take a Land Rider and give it a few upgrades and you´ll end up spending close to 300 points.
Give me <300 points of troops slots from any army and I´ll take that Land Rider down. Give me <300 from the HS slots of any army and I´ll take that Raider down with no sweat.
However... give an IG player 300 points to choose as he pleases with the excetion that he must take a Leman Russ (or it´s variant) and take troops/vehicles incuding a Land Raider from any other army (those being quite limited
3) In real life combat, a tank (or even a squad or a battalion of them) never goes out to try to accomplish anything alone as that would be suicide. The way a real army works is by every unit backing up the other units.
Even fluff wise a Leman Russ squadron would never try to accomplish what a squadron of Land Raiders would be set out to do and thus a dicert comparions as to the battle prowness between the two tanks is quite impossible.
And for the record, I´ve never said the Leman Russ is the better tank. Just that it´s impossible, in games or fulff terms to directly compare the two beasts.
Jesus Max, lay off the Mt Dew. The ins and outs of the various armies and their elements can debated without popping a blood vessel.
Thats what these forums are for after all to talk about and debate the game(s).
Just as you see the Space Wolves as the greatest and best marine chapter, there are going to be players of W40K who see some elements of their particular army as superior to elements of other armies. They very well could be correct as well.
Last edited by Van; 30th Jan 04 at 11:48 PM.
but if you took 300 points of guard with lemon Russ then the russ wouldnt be out performing at as it isnt on its own
You can take 300 points from any army and design it to do one thing, course then it crap at doing most other things, and in a marine army, whats that, 20 models before weapons, so nearer 15 with upgrades, 15 models ant that hard to kill you know (just as a example)
@DarthFelt
Exactly my point concerning the "value/battle prowness/I´m-better-than-you" evaluation of the tanks
You can indeed take 300 points from any army to do just one thing but as it is the Raider is by far more limited in what it can do than the Russ and do note that to make the comparison a bit even I did point out that the other player had to take a tank (Raider/Russ) too.
erm dude, it was tank on tank, a certain person was saying the lemon russ was better, it isnt, simple as, as i said, youcould design 300 points do pretty much what you, it isnt a fair way of doing it. You will say hows this. how many squads in a rmy would you face that were designed just to kill say a land raider, and if that unit came up to same points and wasnt that great at doing anything else, lets face it, its a waste of points. I could spend 300pts on dreadnoughts and they would rip a Land raider apart then get stuck in combat with a large unit and well, be a waste of points.
i thought this was about who had the best tanks, not who could do the best with 250pts to kill one thing. anyways superheavies ant at the same level
Last edited by DarthFelth; 31st Jan 04 at 7:35 AM.
*sigh* ..this is getting a bit redundant (wouldn´t you agree
Sure, as I myself said before a Land Raider would most likely take out a Leman russ were they dueling it out. However, such a comparison is worthless and useless. An equally silly comparison would be to pitch a Firewarrior against an Assault Terminator to see who would slug it out... all the Termie would need to do is give the poor Tau a mean look for the little bugger to keel over and play dead but does that automatically make the Terminator the "better" unit? Of course not!
The point is, once again and for the last time, that direct comparisons between two units which are not meant for the same thing is quite impossible, or if done anyway it doesn´t tell squat about one unit or another.
i think that was actualy the point, that it was a better tank, with more options..... how many lemon russ's can blow up tanks and then out pop a squad of marines, none
Opinion offered as fact doesnt make it so.
alright at the beginning of this argument we were discussing some aspects of marines in the fluff and then someone poped up and said well at least the imperial guard have the best tanks which i took fluff wise as the discussion before that was on fluff not on game rules or anything. i tried to prove a pt to that man that fluff wise russes arnt what he portraid them to be.
gamewise i believe the land raider to be overpriced and since the SM codex is the oldest out there that may be the reason. it also cant out preform some of the guard varients in the game cause of range. i never once argued that it was better in the game, all i argued was fluff and that is what the argument was based on originally.
the quotes i provided that were not marked of source were repling to another man who was argueing the quotes with me. they come from 2nd edition fluff, index astartes space marine land raider, and index astartes chaos land raider.
"Just as you see the Space Wolves as the greatest and best marine chapter"
lol well i dont because they are all equal in their own right and SW are just the chapter that has the fluff that i like and is just simply the chapter that i like.
anyway happy gaming.
That was my point Max. They are your fav so you see their strengths and abilities as better than another chapter. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
alright but i didnt offer any facts that were opinion related, all my quotes were my supporting arguments and iv listed where they came from.
hey lets drop this and mybe get back on topic about what a cool idea would be for SM. iv stated mine i believe idea other ideas?
i really lost track of this thing.....hmm, one thing id love to see marines do is to allow them to be kept back and deploy in drop pods in game, Termies to be teleported, stuff like that, just so long as this game isnt like C&C generals thens its all cool
darth feth. lemon russ? leman russ... nice pun (if it was intentional).
lol, its 5am, bite me
do you think morale will be included? if so a squad that had almost been wiped out running back to the lz (landing zone), fire base or comand bunker would be fun to see.
not to mention realistic. space marines are fearless tho so we wont be seeing that particular race sh!t emselves and run...
Last edited by z-beam; 31st Jan 04 at 10:01 PM.
they ant fearless, they have shaken instead
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