But the whole point of the stealth is to get a jump/ambush/hit and run on them, if everyone can detect, what would be the point of the ability?
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But the whole point of the stealth is to get a jump/ambush/hit and run on them, if everyone can detect, what would be the point of the ability?
Ok guys, not to gush about the new Dark vengeance limited edition or anything but.... asdgfgh;hlk those models are so cool, we should definitely try to make some that look like those...
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...d=prod1700011a
I suggested to reduce the Sight Range of most units drastically before and I still think that it would be a great idea. As Dowpro has proven it in Dow 1, reducing the Sight Range of units under their weapon range, opens a whole bag of tactical depth. Stealth units would benefit largely from it. Many problems of high damage burst will be solved and combat formation will be vastly more important. Melee units will get a intelligent buff, without increasing their stats and tactical maneuvre and ambush will be far more sophisticated than it is now.
I like the idea of stealth-ed scouts moving up just to scout or get range for some emplaced devies. Although I would argue about the tactical depth, some races or units would simply have a longer range of sight than others, and units with snipers would have the longest sight range. A simply tyranid guant will not have the equal range sight of a tactical marine, and so forth. I'm not against the idea, but i think it would nerf some armies without snipers or "elite like" T1 units
This would be part of the Racial traits. In general I would grant all Eldar units (except for Wrathguard and Wrathlord) the highest Line of sight to represent the War based on fortune-telling of the Eldar race. Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines would be second in general Line of Sight. If there is really the chance that we will get this stuff integrated, I can write down some line of sight stats.
does anyone have a link to 1.6.2 for this mod cos i tried 1.6.3 its litterly broken
I was once like you thriving on life, living large is what i used to say but now im a necron and all i can say is: I can never be bargained with, I won't see reason, I don't feel pity, or remorse nor do i feel fear and i will never stop until you, my human friends are dead
Alright guys, in the homestretch now. I will have ork bitz from Outer Heaven tonight for our 'ard boyz, and chaos is working with no crashes. All I was able to get into the game as far as new units are: cultists with their leaders, cult terminators, the nurgle lord termie armor, new wargear for the nurgle lord, and new models from Bloodravage for our chaos armies. Cultists will use the smaller heretic models for now, with larger models representing the Mutants. New cultists and mutants are on the way, ETA 2 weeks.
SM and CSM still do not have pintle guns. I may put them on anyway but they won't animate correctly. It'll just be a graphical bug, they will effectively work if I do this. Rhinos and Chaos Rhinos have a locator beacon that allows troops to reinforce. Drop pods do as well. Chaos is also getting a drop pod, but they will get their new drop pod model later. Shrines have a clicky that spawns a temp. demon squad, rather than doing it automatically since that was spawning them nonstop. Demons heal and get energy back near a shrine, and also can reinforce near shrines. The buffs from shrines and worship stack for demons. Demons have warp instability now, which means that any demon that is out of energy takes additional damage and is slowed/debuffed. Temp demons die when out of energy; recruited demons that cost req/power take additional damage and suffer a -1 spd and 10% debuff until their energy is above 10. Null zone, force weapons, witch blades and Grey Knight weapons will drain energy from demons and have a chance to crit them. Greater demons like the GUO also suffer debuffs on energy loss, but worship refills their energy faster so you can stave off warp instability if you have worshiping cultists or mutants nearby.
Orkz will get 'ard boyz and beefed up Flash Gitz. They will have new snazzguns with improved stats and the zappa-type anti vehicle guns.
Lootas will now have 3 deffguns and 3 big shootas, and the deffguns can be swapped out for Tank Zappas, which function like lascannons but snare vehicles like a melta gun. Orkz will be the only faction to have long-range vehicle stunning guns on their setup team, since lascannons are for pure damage output and melta guns/multimeltas are the vehicle snare weapons now. Unlike multimeltas, the tank zappas will snare the avatar.
I am working on putting rokkits and skorchas on the wartrukk as well as having the extra armor upgrade change its armor type from light vehicle to vehicle. This would make it nearly as good as a razorback. The ork trukk will also reinforce. I also will eventually change the orky tank into a looted leman russ with a beamy AV gun in the center to make it more of a balanced vehicle - deffguns or skorchas on the side, boom cannon on top, beamy av gun in the front. A good all-round vehicle comparable to the base leman russ, but without the special turret variants.
Caid gave us some new Eldar bling, including real striking scorpion models. They will be in the game on update. Other than that, the changelist/bugfixes posted earlier (I will repost on the front page) are all that is new.
Lupus right now is MIA, but if I can get ahold of him we will have all the eldar plat and vehicle weapons for grav tanks and the wraithlord. This is all coming together very nicely, it will be worth the wait. If any of you can get some 3d model guys together to help out, things would progress faster.
Awesome, i can't wait to see the Grey knights in action!
^LIKE^ GK will be amazing
I dont know, what you guys all have with GK ^^ They are essentially SM with far better equipment. In TT Games Workshop has made them superior, because they wanted to sell models. In Fluff they are not better, but more specialized. In Codex Edition it is very likely that no one will play SM anymore, because GK are SM just better. Its like if we would introduce Custodian Guard. They are like Grey Knights, but better in everything with better equipment. But ok, lets wait and see, how it works out.
On a more realistic note, here are the leaked Chaos Cultist stats:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4qlRALiA9l...tist-Entry.jpg
it will be interesting to see how they balance
GK will not be in the update, but I assure you they will not flat out whip SM or CSM. They will have some pretty impressive special equipment and VERY tanky heroes.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Long awww aside, i enjoyed their fluff a lot more than i did marine fluff (especially the ultrasmurfs). But they basically are psyker marines with really good equipment and very strong specialized units. Although they should be able to beat almost anything in a straight up fight, force weapons cause insta death, and they have the ability to get 1+ str that help killing abilities, also with all the upgrades available to them...
GK should be flat-out whipping Chaos and SM though. Storm bolters are standard issue for GK for twice the fire rate of a regular bolter and they've also got their various types of Nemesis Force Weapons such as halberds for increased Initiative and dual falchions for an extra attack. Force weapons are all power weapons by default, too, so they'll be tearing up the other Marines in both melee and ranged combat. Health should be similar to regular SM though, and GK should be more expensive and fewer in numbers than regular SM.
From the TT rules apart: Yes GK have superior equipment for combating daemons. And they are all low level psykers, which makes them in squads tactically more flexible and gives them an even better chance at locating daemons and destroying them. But that's it. Contrary to general opinion, GK are not better in combat than "regular" Marines. They are trained for different purposes and specialize in fighting one type of foe their whole existence. They avoid combat with other foes whenever possible.
GK ARE very interesting, but mostly not for the reasons they are famous for right now.
The GK boom came with the 5th Edition GK Codex. It's author is Matthew Ward, infamously the worst Codex writer in the history of GW. He is known for making absurdly powerful rules to push the selling rate of models and to write broken fluff to appeal to kids, but which are disregarded by Veterans.
About Matthew Ward:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matt_Ward
On a fluff side, the best example for the GK's uniqueness can be found in the novel "The Emperor's Gift" from Aaron Dembski-Bowden, which is already setting the tone for 40k. fluff. All GK fans should really read it, since it points out the true greatness of the GKs (which is not their combat prowess). Set around the time of the 1st War of Armageddon, it tells the story of the most shameful war the GK has ever fought. During this time, they come to blow with the Space Wolves and get their asses kicked. This is not just because Space Wolves are so badass. Its because GK are not equipped and trained for this kind of war.
Since Codex Edition is more based on fluff (otherwise, we could just make a ranking of which armies are better than others depending on the novellity of their Codices and depending on if Matt Ward wrote them or not), GK should be highly specialized. GK are not even fewer in numbers than any other Astartes Chapter. The actually have the same numbers. They are not elite because they are better warriors. They are elite, because they have the Emperor's Gift.
PS: On a sidenote, not even in Ward's broken GK Codex are all Force Weapons Power Weapons. It depends on the psychic ability of the wearer, which in case of the GK is far to low for the individual member. The whole GK squad focuses their psychic potential to make ONE force weapon work (usually wielded by the Justiciar). So do not go overboard with the entusiasms =D A regular Space Marine Librarian has about the same psychic power than a whole squad of Grey Knights.
While Greyknights are tough and generally better equipped than ordinary sm, they do in no way flat out beat sm or csm. A lot of chapters have special units that can easily take up the fight with greyknights and whoop their ass. Also eventhough Greyknights are generally better equipped and have psychic attunement and have some pretty leet units, the mod still needs a decent feel of balance. So no, your not gonna have the supersoldiers from Ben Counters misserably poor novel "Grey Knights".
In the mod we do try to keep a fluff feel and let as many units from tt as possible be available, but it's also a priority that the mod has a decent balance feel.
RragnarR40k
GK get no heavy bolters except on the razorback, no jump pack disruptors, no lascannons (again except on the razorback) and although they get a lot of force weapons, they aren't better vs. non-demon targets than reg. power weapons. For example, GK with force swords or halberds aren't necessarily better in a straight up fight than Khorne Berzerkers with their rending chainaxes or Vanguard Veterans with dual lightning claws and a thunderhammer. GK storm bolters do give better ranged damage per model than reg SM, but you can put a heavy bolter on a tac squad and suppress the PAGK. GK do not field scouts, but they will get Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to fill that scout/capping role.
The interceptor squad will be able to teleport farther than other squads can jump, and Warp Quake will allow for some aoe disruption once there, but they won't be quite the same as ASM in t1 who can jump in and disrupt, then jump out or fire of merciless strike. And yes, GK with force weapons do count as having power weapons, so the reg. ASM and Raptors will get their asses kicked if they just walk up and go hit for hit with GK, but SM units will be able to whittle them down if they use ASM as disruptors and provide fire support.
In t2, plasma guns will come into play making GK's more vulnerable, but psycannons will be deadly as well... just remember that adding a heavy weapon to a PAGK squad removes one force weapon from the squad, so they won't be equal to van vets if they are missing a force weapon (3 power weapons/4 with leader, versus 4 power weapons/5 with leader) and lightning claws are better for dps than a single nemesis force sword. GK with melee weapons will all have veteran level weaponskill, so they will out-fight other T1 units in single combat until vets/cult marines come out in T2, when the stats are equal and it comes down to tactics and equipment.
So as far as SM versus GK goes, Scouts are better in pure dps and especially melee than stormtroopers, although stormies have more members and can get plasma guns and melta guns. Scout shotguns can provide extra knockback versus GK that wind up too close, and heavy bolters allow for crowd control against an opponent who would otherwise win a shootout with bolter tacs. All GK squads pack enough power weapon damage to rout T1 units from SM and CSM in melee, and so kiting/suppression/knockback is the key to managing the otherwise superior-equipped GK force. An eco advantage can be gained by bleeding stormtroopers as well, who are not fodder and are considerably softer than scouts. Also, the SM command squad will be most useful for battlefield healing to offset the DPS advantage that GK get in T1
GK will have an advantage over every other faction in T1 due to the free power weapons and storm bolters, but their lack of snipers, heavy bolters, and disruptors in T1 can be a problem against a player who plans well. In T2 when the GK dreadnought and razorback become available, they gain mobile suppression platforms but if you can out-tech them and field enough heavy weapons you should be able to make a "containment and attrition" strategy work well versus GK. You just have to make sure you don't meet them head-on in T1. T2 sees the GK get all their good stuff plus leaders for every squad, which means more psychic clickies, but by then SM and CSM can field plasma guns, plasma cannons and things that can meet GK in melee and not get whipped - Lightning Claw Van Vets and Chaos Chosen, and Khorne Berzerkers. Demons will be able to deal good damage to GK with their power weapon damage, but GK force weapons drain energy from demons and a demon without energy is debuffed and takes extra damage. Temp. demons from shrines and blood sacrifice go poof once their energy runs out as well.
I haven't worked out yet how to balance the initial Grand Master's terminator armor and force weapon vs the other starting heroes. We will see.
I'm sure it'll need tweaking, but the things I've done with GK so far won't be in 1.7.
Then I already know what will happen: Everyone will play GK and GK will whine that everyone is ninja capping the whole time. And GK will be even cheesier and less fluffy than the actual Ward Codex =)
But future worries aside, lets finish the important races first. Chaos and Nids are close to be finished. Let's get it done!
Uhm GK squads don't lose their force weapons weapons if they take a psycannon....just sayin'. Plus why not simply just activate the force weapons and cuase instant death to everything!? (of course thats probably the most op cheese ever) but you guys get my point. Tabletop wise, GK's always win in combat even against a larger marine force just because of their hammerhand ability that adds 1+S or activating force weapons and outright instagibbing the entire unit. Fluff wise even most MARINES don't pass their right of passage (maybe that means something?) the Emperor made them to be the best of the best, generally no average marine could match the skill of a single Grey Knight (remember, this is fluff guys...).
Stormtroopers for scouts? I mean storms have their hotshots that I would argue are superior to the bolter because its AP3. Squads of 5 could easily outshoot scouts as they have the same armor values, so it would force marine players to melee. The only things i could see scouts beating storms in is melee, maneuverability, and their shotguns. Storms can infiltrate, have hotshots, carapace armor, squads of 5, can eventually get harder hitting weapons as opposed to the scouts where their weapons start to fall short in T2
But i have ideas for the stat line of the force weapons:
Halberd: slightly faster attack speeds than a sword, longer range 150/30 (10% more effective against demons)
Flachions: fastest speed of all the weapons, but do the same damage as normal swords 200/25 (10% more effective against demons)
Demon Hammers: slow thunder hammers that DO NOT get the immobilizing clicky, that are more effective against big demons and vehicles then normal troops (15% more effective against greater demons and demon vehicles, 10% against normal demons?)
Stave: Allows an Invulnerable clicky OR if the wielder is near death for 10 seconds, effectiveness wise it does same damage as the sword but with slightly longer reach. 250/35
Sword: Average power weapon that is more effective against demons (10% bonus) (comes already pre-fit to squads)
balance wise i believe gabe will be forgiben for tweaking fluff a teeny bit because you cant have a squad of GK running around insta-killing the s*** out of everything and their scouts (stormtroopers) need to balance out with the other scout units.
is that for GKFC or just normal squads?
Astartes bolters are a lot stronger individually than hotshot lasguns, although the latter preserve their damage vs. heavy armor. Bolters hurt carapace more than hotshots since their base damage is a lot higher, and scouts are tougher in general than stormies. Scouts will start killing models faster in a stormie vs scout shootout, and smart players will close with the stormies to chase them, shooting them in the back while closing in to smash heads. Stormies will need to kite much the same way scouts in vanilla need to kite or avoid tacs, although stormies can get meltas and plasmas that preserve their usefulness, especially with infiltration.
Remember, GK units don't typically pack meltas or plasma guns, although the psycannon is superb in t2 and the incinerator is superior to the flamer. GK are powerful but lack special weapons options compared to other races. They are focused on killing heavy infantry and demons, with solid power weapon melee and the highest base ranged damage of any race. They need to watch out for suppression and disruption, because they are a more specialized force. The wider array of weapons available to SM/CSM squads in T1 is the result of the Astartes needing to face a wide range of opponents and be flexible, whereas the GK can afford to tool up with high-end anti-CSM/anti-demon gear because that's what they face most of the time. Stormies provide some weapon flexibility on a relatively cheap but less durable t1 unit, plus reasonably effective scouting and capping units. Stormies can move in with melta bombs and melta guns to flank vehicles, or fire plasma volleys from behind charging GK, but relying on them is going to be a bad idea since flamers, nades, and melee from anything in the SM/CSM list will eat them up pretty fast. I predict most players will be using =I= stormies the way vanilla stormies are used now, not as a mainstay of their army.
Last edited by Gabriel Gorgutz; 5th Sep 12 at 9:23 PM.
It really sounds like you guys are just citing GK Promo-text from White Dwarf articles =D You know, besides in the mind of kids, it is nowhere established, that GK are better than regular Marines. Not in their crappy Codex, not in Lexicanum and not in any novel that can be taken seriously. The only Astartes-like beings who are really superior are Adeptus Custodes. GK only have a mysterious reputation whether they exist or not. Even the Ward Codex only says that the GK "eclipse" all others in their "dedication" to confront the Daemons of the Warp.
Their role in combat is a very limited one. They wait until real combat units fight the enemy for months and tires and pushes the enemy on the edge of breaking and the big daemon shows up. Then they teleport in, kill steal and teleport out and let the regular troops do all the dirt work. For this case GK are optimal equipped. Yes, they carry Stormbolters and yes, they are better than regular bolters. That's possible in fluff because they need burst damage. GK units are not meant to reload etc. or stay in battle for long. Otherwise they would have immense logistic problems. Essentially they have the role of Glas-Cannons. And what I think most people forget is that GK also have kinda off-springs like regular Astartes Chapters. The Exorcist Chapter i.e. is a Successor Chapter from the GK. They are special too. But as the GK they are not renown for their combat prowess.
As before I'm strictly against the introduction of Codex creep into this mod. Since Mr. Ward is outdoing himself with every new codex he is creating, it is reasonable to assume that if he does the coming Eldar Codex, Banshees will wield Avatars in each hand and Shining Spears will ride on hogtied Grey Knights.
If a pure GK army has any chance in Codex edition, they have to be highly specialized and vastly difficult to play. Not having "options" is no drawback, if they dont need the options anyway. And by the way, what are you guys thinking, who wants to be on the receiving end of the GK? Do you guys really think anybody wants to play Chaos? It will be GK vs. GK all the time as long as the GK army is even close to the Ward Codex. And I cannot stress this enough: The Ward Codex is absolutely not a good representation of the Grey Knights, neither in TT rules, nor in fluff.
In the end I want to quote:
"There are two things Matt Ward is infamous for: atrocious fluff-writing that induces vomiting and broken army rule sets that turns them into table-flattening steamrollers."
Any introduction of these principles, will result in the same: Vomit inducing armies and game breaking steamrollers.
yes but luckily we have gabe and not matt ward heading the codex edition mod, and what he is trying to say is that if a chaos player is against a GK then he changes his build order, rather than getting deamons he gets vehicles and marines, GK have next to no anti-vehicle is what believe gabe said, and plasma or vets will still chew up the GKs.
I think they are a good idea its a good twist on the space marines adding a more specialised faction rather then a versatile jack of all trades. Obviously we need to iron out the details and really make sure that if you make a mistake there is heavy penalty the grey knights should be a micro intensive and hard race to play because you cant just wack out a rocket launcher or a melta gun. Maybe this could also be reflected in removing the usual refit ability so once you buy a weapon for a GK squad they are stuck with it? Stormies will probbaly be the same cost as the IG stormies so again a very expensive 'scout' that gets raped pretty easily.
Speaking of rocket launchers did we ever agree on bringing back the tac rocket launcher? i think they need it, obviously as a t2/3 weapon and expensive so that meltas are still viable, and they dont get the snare ability that meltas have
Grey Knights... The bane of TT, of Codex-fluff and of rulesets. I would advocate that GK are avoided until every other relevant faction has been updated and balanced appropriately. Unlike other races//factions, Grey Knights are built solely for Daemonic-incursions, fluffwise anyway. I suffer enough from GK spam in the real-world on tabletop, I would hate to see any forward edition of Codex mod suffer the same "Oh look, Grey Knights again..." on every MP game.
I agree with Eirikr.
My point about bringing a specialized army into a game like Dow is:
Even if we presume Chaos could win against GK without the use of Daemons and we could find someone who wants to play Chaos even, if he can't use half his building-tree, the problem still stands that no one would build Daemons against GK. And wouldn't it be an absolute pity if GK would fight everything else except Daemons?
Last edited by Nightwing; 6th Sep 12 at 6:26 AM.
Well demons could be viable with lots of precaution , from what I gather from implentations worship restores energy and health of demons , grey knights do
damage to energy and when energy is low do energy damage to health, so idk for egzample horrors with worship could beat GK squad without psycannon in ranged combat with good micro in worship range.
As Gabe said demons dont get extra damage by default from GK weapons but only start taking it if theyre energy is very low.
I dont have crazy ideas about GK and they could be playable in my oppinion we just dont need to rush it.
And GK will be in Elite mod which is quite sensitive to balance and stuff so lets not make big deal of this, and lets not go over board with
insta win button proposals.
Agreed. In theory I like Gabe's idea of making the energy-bar of Daemons kinda their stability in reality and making Force Weapons reduce their energy. This is a very good concept in general aside from GK. This would also be a good time to revise certain Wargears for Psykers.
Our primary workload right now is to get Chaos ready. As far as I heard, a release can be made soon. We lack models, but I'm fine with proxy by now. But please ask all modders you know to help create models for us.
Awaiting on models that may never be made is wasting time, IMHO. Still suggesting that Gabe releases with proxy and with what he has now, assuming some rough balance and framework has been introduced, then allow the rest of us to comment, criticize and feedback.
Here is another concept for cultists I have found, perfect for the Khorne Chaos Lord
Damn It Ravenor, im a chaos worshipper, not a loyalist
They mapped for our sins: http://mapsofwar.info/
Chocolate?
why is the chimera not "chaos-ey" but other than that they look pretty damn cool, sorta like the word bearers tics.
most of it is because that image is of bloodpact Traitor guard they loot vehicles and such from any engagements with the Guard and use it mostly as is just to piss them off.
Since I cant play Codex, I played a couple of games vanilla and I noticed what's amiss in Dow generally: There is nearly no change in pace during the game. It is close to not possible to surprise your enemy with an attack like in other RTS games like Starcraft. We should try to change that. I'm not sure yet, how we can accomplish that. But one avenue is to make it worthwhile to save up some req. Right now saving up is only partly useful for recovery or pushing, since you can only build one unit at a time and the base healing takes time no matter how much req you have got. Or saving up req and power after a Base-tech is also kinda partly useful, since you cannot build anything during upgrade and even if you save up tons of resources, you still can only build one unit at a time.
Creating some upgrades or options for strategic assets could enhance the depth dramatically, like a increased base healing rate for a period of time for a certain amount of req or power i.e.
What do you guys think?
Codex Edition has an entirely different pace than vanilla and cannot really be compared...
I think comparisons can be made, since the principle is absolutely the same. You are building up your army gradually one squad at a time and besides an early vehicle rush there is absolute nothing that can surprise you. Especially for the Horde armies new options can be considered like spawning a second squad of basic troops for +20% of the regular req while you build something else in your HQ. This would open up a whole avenue of Tactics.
Codex Edition only has two aspects, that makes it far better than vanillia: More fluffy units and more creative game mechanics. Since the creation of units is a very slow procedure, we should focus on the general game mechanics like Race Traits and ideas to open up strategic and tactical avenues.
The major ideas so far are:
- Racial Traits (Merits & Flaws)
- Sight Range adjustments
Right now, it is very limited what your oponent can field at a time, just because you know: If you have 3 squads, then he will probably have 3 squads as well. So combat is quite predictable. If he rushes you, you will fight against the same amount of squads as you have, with a bonus, that you are closer to your base, so your 4th squad will arrive earlier than his. No matter which race he is playing etc. That's the reason why scouting is unnecessary in Dow (compared to Starcraft ie).
Now imagine a Tyranid player having the options to build a Termagaunt squad and at the same time buy a Hormagaunt squad for +20% req. Suddenly it's a 3 squads vs. 4 squads situation. But if the rush is defended against, the nid player will practically has lost 20% of that req. Or imagine, someone is saving up req and can boost his HQ regeneration aura for 30 seconds, so he has practically no outtime for 100 req and can make a fast comeback. Or imagine you invest 200/50 on Eldar HQ and upgrades it to have Energy regeneration aura as well....
There are many possibilities to increase the variety of strategies. Right now we have only increased the amount of units and their weapon upgrades. It's time we increase the strategic assets to change the pace of the game.
i think (if it is possible) there should be the option to make unit producing constructs, So for nids it could be the brood nest, as a global or however it would best fit into the UI. Which allows the production of T1 units alongside the HQ. I even think adding this ability to the Hive tyrants ability would be a good idea because then it opens up forward building strats for nids, you need to scout out the surrounding area incase the nid player is massing a hormo blob behind your main defensive line etc.
Then each race should have something that makes them unique to, so space marines should be able to build a space relay which allows them to garrison certain squads inside and then drop pod them into enemy lines.
chaos can have god specific deamon portals
eldar can either make use of spirit stones allowing for cheap resurection of wraithlords and guards or something to do with webways allowing for froward production (however this is similar to nids)
orks should be able to loot dead enemies allowing hard boy upgrades or ig like armour upgrades
ig should be able to upgrade to dual production on their bases or even a second hq allowing them to produce units faster than other races
something to discuss while we wait for update, not sure how much of this actually do-able but i strongly believe that some of these ideas have good strategic benefits especially the nid/sm concepts
Beast and nightwing bring up some pretty good points and ideas, but guys you have to remember this is still a DOW game at its core. The game wasn't built to handle multiple interactive buildings along with massive scale armies (the entire reason vanilla is so small scale). Eventually i don't even think the game could run the mod as we tweaked it so much (i may be wrong as i don't know things that make games tick). But saying we COULD put all those things in, wouldn't it just become something like starcraft only its like warhammer? This is not necessarily bad, but i would rather have a mod to have its own distinct feeling and mechanics to it that doesn't look like a game that is more widely played.
Besides that point, are we going to change the mod slightly to conform to the new 6th ed. rules now? Alot of stuff has changed, and I think that warrants a change in this mod also.
the problem is the fluff supports alot of what has been talked about by Night and Beast...
FOB( Forward operating Base) could be possible the mechanics for that kind of stuff are already in the game, you'd just have to look in the right places (Campaign for example)
i can tell you coming from a Guards Perspective if we don't follow our main role we aren't much of anything, and that's the ability to swamp you with guardsman which means we'd have to setup FOBs in order to keep the flow of troops moving... technically by default the game is no longer small scale skirmishes that point is obvious, and besides sixth edition isn't guaranteed to have anything that hasn't already been spoken about in previous editions hell half the book is repeats so the only thing that is of any relevance would be any new codex's that come out because that s going to have the most impact on the game. the rules are already in the game, its called meatgrinder the rules of sixth edition can't be pushed into a meat grinder game that's the problem about trying to put elements from a tabletop into an RTS game the rules are there for you to learn from not to be implemented into a game that could potentially destabilize the main purpose of the game.
but that's just my opinion whatever happens is entirely up to the Gabe and the dev team
The strength of the wolf is the pack, The strength of the pack is the wolf - 38th Wolf Brigade
Don't get me wrong: I don't want another Starcraft. I want strategic depth. Actually strategic assets are already included in Dow vanillia as Global Abilities. But the original global abilities are not very nifty. They are blunt and often a tad stupid in my opinion. They do not add much to strategy or tactics and do not emphasis anything that belongs to that race. It seems to me, the developer created a buff and asssigned it kinda randomly to a race. I.e. Malignated Blindness (dont know the exact name) from Chaos. Besides the name, why is that a very Khorne orientated ability? I mean Khorne never really cared about how his boys are getting into melee. Why isn't it a Eldar Ability i.e.? Misleading and disruption is more a Eldar thing. Or why isn't it a Tyranid thing to represent the Shadow of the Warp? Or also For the Emperor! from SM. It is good Ability etc. but if we are honest, what has it to do with SM besides the name? Could as well be a Eldar ability to represent shielding etc.
My point is, that everything a race in Codex can build or upgrade or use, should be a representation of the race. At the same time, we should focus on those things, that expands the strategic possibilities. And I'm not talking about more units or more buildings on the fields, but more choice that makes a different. I want it be like each player has to choose between: Building more units, building units faster, teching, buying upgrades on squads, buying upgrades on buildings or saving up req for buffs. Then we will get much more diversity. I want options, that compete with each other. Not replace older stuff.
My suggestions about the dual building ability for races are not meant to increase the total amount of units on the field. It is meant to make it possible to do something else than your enemy, to surprise him or make him want to know what the heck you are doing.
Although Beast's suggestions sound good, I think it will break the game mechanics. That's why I think we should stay realistic and suggest things, that is possibly doable. Meaning: Making simple upgrades (mechanic-wise) on the right spots. And especially not giving every race the same options. We have to look out that Codex stays small sized. At least my Computer can't handle Dow with much more models and the pathfinding is crappy in larger squads. Therefore I'm absolutely for small "cheats". I.e. Nids should be really hordy, but this breaks my PC and the Pathfinding. Therefore we have to keep the squad size reasonable but give nids enough possibilities to cheaply and quickly reinforce squads to compensate their lack in numbers and to keep the "endless swarm" feeling.
@6th Edition: I think tabletop mechanics do not translate well into Computer Games, since the challenges are absolutely different. In Table Top rules have to be straight forward, easy to remember and quick in its application and especially doable with a D6. Complex calculations or even frequent calculations are off the table for TT, but are very reasonable in Computer games. Therefore I think we should keep Codex close to the fluff and not the TT rules.
well actually the game mechanics for more buildings wouldn't break it because that is already present you just have to pull the correct lines of code to make them function outside of what they were originally intended for. take the Outposts that you regularly use throughout the Campaign as an example, they are just small enough to produce infantry but not big enough to produce anything else. that said it wouldn't take much to use the same functionality of say the Eldar Webway gate in order to produce sub buildings that are merely there to be a minor annoyance but not there enough to destabilize the overall game functionality. Strategic Buildings are functional for the game we just have to make use of the resources available already within the game and put them to more practical use outside of what they were originally intended for.
But again that's just my thoughts on the subject...
Im all for the ideas you guys have proposed, IF we can get it to work and it isn't game breaking, it will definitely change the game for the better
1.7 Must Fixes/stuff to add:
General: Nightwing's weapon range over sight range idea, globals fixed, pathing issues fixed, buffed buildings, god awful flamers and their clickies, I think nightwing suggested this but we should really isolate the flamer clicky to a heavy flamer clicky only, that way its not spammed the shit out of, also put in a 4 flamers MAX in a an army regardless of it being an upgrade or a flamer unit itself.
SM: Sm's drop pods still insta kill bases, and should be fixed as it is really gamebreaking. I assumed scouts were supposed good (or at least be able to hold their own) in melee, but it seems even a simple squad of boys can force a retreat. Scout cheese shotguns are slightly op, as units will be knocked back endlessly (eldar running away (not retreat) get knocked back and are forced to retreat as the sm force catches up because of the knockdown), I say decrease the range of shotguns. SM vets are sorta outmatched by their assault counter part (due to the fact that the VASM have troll damage...) and should really get a shooty buff. FC's wargear is broke beyond belief, both armors are hilariously op (its either charge right through the entire army disrupting it, or you get more damage and more speed....) and the clickes don't work for them sometimes, his only GOOD weapons is the uber claw and troll hammer, I only see his jump pack taken as the banner upgrade is useless (trumped by the apo's T3 bearer upgrade), and the useless energy drain shield a.k.a Iron Halo is never used as EVERYTHING uses energy now. Dreadnoughts should never start with a multimelta...in fact it should start as a melee dread with a built in stormbolter+flamer and buy its upgrades if it wants to, I don't want to pay for a unit, then pay for an upgrade. Land Raiders still have an issue of getting stuck in base. Pred's autocannon fires insanely fast, with that damage at that speed, even tough units like nobs died in droves (which they shouldn't against an autocannon and 2 HBs). Libby is also pretty broken as his quickening+devs makes SM dominant in almost any T1 fight it should either be moved to T2 or priced high that it would make an SM player think to either buy that and save for tier, or tier immedietly. Chaplain is probably the most balanced hero, and i like him very much, but his wargear is slightly lacking (its basically the same stuff..) I dare say he requires slightly more cheese...
Faildar *achem* i mean Eldar: Lets see...Spammable dirt cheap gates, limitless flamer units, cheap suppression, tons of clickies, blatantly overpowered banshees, insane range on everything. Ok in all seriousness eldar are really hit and miss, you have units that you have to buy, then you have the "meh". They get limitless storm guardians with 4, thats right 4, flamers in each squad (for all you eldar players that bitch about sm or ork using flamers...idk why you don't fight fire with fire) and considerably cheap for a flamer unit. Guardians are really bad until they get the obvious shuriplat upgrade (every eldar does until they get their T3 d-cannon), and even then they can easily get their asses handed to them by mere scouts in melee. Scorpions are way too damn durable for what they are, i mean they are basically armored like asms only without jumpacks or power weapons. Rangers are incapable in combating scout snipers sadly enough, they should really be at the very least be able to force scouts back to base. Banshees, probably the most op cheese in CE mod right now next to VASM, FC trollclaw, and libby+devs, they can basically fly across the battlefield to scream and murder everything and come out unscathed, if you on't acknowledge that they are op then you are either a hardcore eldar fanboy or utterly stupid and care nothing for balance. Theres the issue of fire dragons (the melta unit) being to be able to seen even with no LOS,etc as their fire effect seems to give them away on anywhere on the map. The eldar transport is slightly lacking as the T3 transport is leaps and bounds better (And yes I know theres a reason why they are in 2 different tiers but the T2 transport should really be looked into). And finally Eldar T3.... yeah, where do i start? Lets see a mega leap seer counsil with a nuke clicky for any swarm army, a tank that screams AoE knock back and the speed and shield to get away, and a "god" that will rape any swarm army. Theres also the issue of the eldar base gate being only an entry point, but not an exit point? (or the other way around, idk)
Orks: In the sad state of the pitiful orks, I will rarley play them now as their T3 is so terrible, with a very lacking T2. Orks have only one strong point, and thats their T1, they have such amazing units in T1, I simply don't understand how they go from probably the most balanced and fun T1 to a pitiful hit and run army in late game. Ill start with their T1, sluggas are an obvious a must, shootas would be the most worthless unit in game if not for their rokkits (they overall damage is terrible and the big shootas just add the suppression clicky, like thats really worth the resources). Ork Nobs become obsolete as the game progresses, but a pretty decent unit to combat early game SM and tougher eldar. Lootas, are OK, they are no means great, but they get the job done, I would like to see them fire TONS more dakka their short bursts of fire are nothing like how a real ork would fire, it should be a continuous rate of fire with the pause to reload. Stormboys are probably my favorite T1 unit in the orks, but are unfortunately broken to some extent, it seems that they still have their uber buff after jumping in, but besides that I really like how they work, the suicide bomber and the stun from the nob. Orks T2 is where they start lagging behind, there are some quality units, but overall its a lacking tier. The deffdread is arguably the worst walker (Some might bring up the argument that hes the cheapest, but honestly he should still be able to bring a dreadnought or wraithlord to near death in a 1v1 before going kaput). Kommandos are a great support unit (and it replaces the awful shoota squad perfectly, it even does the lootas job better at times), but their stealth is near useless, as armies have detectors everywhere. Ork Trukks are good, but their overall support capabilities other than being a forward vehicle to reinforce is next to none, its shooting capabilities are shit (a bigshoota is capable of killing marines if it can hit and yet even a mere guardian will laugh as the shoota pours lead into him). Tankbustas are lacking as an AV unit as their squishyness and overall DPS make them fall short of other AV squads in other armies. Orks T3... GABE LISTEN UP!!!! Orks T3 need a major overhaul, almost everything needs to be redone in this tier, it is by far the most pitiful and weak excuse for a last tier i have ever seen. Mega nobs are the only thing that are really worth taking in this tier, and they can easily be swamped or killed by a shee scream. Ork Tank has no weapon upgrades to it, and the extra armor adds some extra cardboard to teh front of the vehicle i guess, its dps, compared to a Pred or a Prism is in sad state and is really not worth paying for. Flash Gits, you guys already know my thoughts on this, if you don't well all i can say is they have the shooting capabilities of a guardsman for a T3 unit and probably the most useless upgrades I have ever seen. Battlewagon should really be worked on, it has potential, but I just don't feel like enough has been done to it. It should be able to hold termie squads and loads of boyz, it should have lots of dakka and armor, AND ITS DEFFROLLA NEEDS TO BE BUFFED!!!!! TT wise a deffrolla will kill anything it rolls over (d6 Str10 hits, i think) when that damn clicky is activated I want t see armies running scared shitless, it should be one of the most powerful clickies in the game (with an appropriate cool down of course), It should be popping weak vehicles and heavily damaging super heavies as well as simply demolishing any kind of infantry, terminator armor is not going to save you from a big ass 10 ton spiked roller thats coming at you at full speeds.
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*whew* well those are my thoughts, I probably forgotten some things that i'll add later, and thanks for anyone who actually reads through that entire thing.
Last edited by WarlordZoggfist; 12th Sep 12 at 9:56 PM.
There really is little point in balancing out those three races when we're still to see how they interact with Chaos, Imperial Guard and Tyranids. I said this long ago and I'll say it now again; fine-tune the balancing act when we have all of the races available. There's literally zero reward in balancing those three against one another as the inclusion of any one of the remaining three will throw it all out of sync again.
i think we should steam roll with an update asap then everyone can get to playing with the new races and the new stats and see how everything balances up, we dont need models just release the proxies and broken animations i dont tihnk people are actually bothered at this point, because lets face it when a race is first released there are always complaints and if 3 races are being properly released in this update then there is going to be helland then we can start overhauling the mod and changing things up so they balance with all the races as Eirkr said, ( btw good going with the constructive posts its good to see you helping out and giving your input
)
Agreed!
hi caus i have the feeling it would motitavte u guys to see some progress i will post the link for the new models i made http://www.mediafire.com/?hkndnvzwe44rfex i mark them as open source so feel free to reuse them or modefiy them also this will be used soon ingame
also to zogg the its right the stormguardians have 4 flamers but each of them has a signifcant lower dmg than a SM flamer and they have no clicky also i agree on banshees being very strong but only vs mobbed up armys but i think it wouldnt be wrong to incrase the Clicky CD by 30%
and i totally aprove a general flamer limit and a small info fireprism has no shield
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...post1045387399
Lupus Teach and Learn Thread
Zogfist have put out quite decent review the only things that I dont fully agree
SM
That are questionable is opiness of fc armors first gives no ability other gives sprint not something incredible really maybe cheap and generally usefull not main stuff
why jumpack gets bought is obvious thing cause lots of things and vechiles do supression and to do dmg is to get close fast obviously need jumpack.
Other thing in The very latest for some people not working patch APOes squad bannerman doesnt give any dmg buffs or anything really usefull for its price.
The thing with veterans vs vans is that vans need srg and claws to be efficient they cant stand against Meganobs or seercouncil with both upgrades
and only put out dmg in melee its really good but they can get swarmed simple vets have burst dmg vs many different targets they can easily dispatch some inf
in few volleys. In conclusion vans do constant good close quarters damage and Vets do high burst damge but in long run they fall behind when vans lvl and bleed less.
Vets lack consistency in damage but definetily can kill stuff.
Eldar
if rangers were able to always force scouts out it would mean that its tacs only against shuri and rangers so kinda simple win , rangers have some issues
with dps sometimes they seem not to do enough dmg to regular infantry , sometimes too much to heavier inf targets , and sometimes too little to them too.
Problem is that if eldar shuriplat in tight maps and get rangers they get free kills while flanking opportunity is looked for. In wide maps they dont do much against approaching fast things, main rangers flaw is that they dont have long term direct usefullness in later tiers and are mainly support with inf spot ,knockback and mass
infiltration. Ranger match up vs scouts with quick rangers should favor eldar cause they have FoF inf ,inf spot and rifles from start scouts need to buy those
separately.And eldar HQ can have exit point but you have to aim on the button for awhile cause only half of it is seen and its tricky to click :P.
Orks quite right and stormboyz bug is said to be fixed for awhile now, tier 2 vechiles weapon upgrades are planned and that is confirmed.
Flashgitz not usefull almost true well 89% truth. Blastas do mid range okeysh dmg and can kill lots of stuff if nobody targets them but if they are targeted engaged
or sneezed on they are Fd I quite surely thinked that they are not pulling enough since first retri patch cause backthen they were awfull.
And Flashgitz buff is confirmed.
The thing I cant understand what is up with Zog and inf spoters
Lets name all spoters I can remember please fix me if im wrong.
Sm scout srg ,tac srg , and maybe Stern srg not sure. (Tac srg is rarely bought) scout squads have limited amount so max 3 spoters I think seen as much in vannila sometimes with scout spam.
Orks shoota knob , kommandos
Eldar have rangers
So where is abundance of spoters?
@Lupus: Good to see you're back! Where have you been? =D
Unfortunately I'm far to stupid to open the Model-files. Can you just some screenshots of the models? And yes, it is motivating =) I really hope, the new patch is coming this month. I totally agree with Beast, that proxies and faulty animations are ok, as long as we can play again.
Regarding the Balance talk, I agree with Eirikr: We have to wait until all races are out. The Balance right now is ok in general. And before we go into the Details we need a better concept of how we want to balance things. And balancing should go into the direction, that the races are the most powerful the way they are intended to be. I still think focusing on racial traits would be a huge boon to the mod.
i noticed that the incoming GK startet quite a huzzle i must admit much more intristing would be BlackTemplars and SpaceWolfes they have a much more interisting structure for blacktemplar neopyhts, absolutly no psykers and the muchstronger mele focus as for the spacewolves who have no aspirant scouts there devs(Long Fangs) are so elite there would proberly t2 or even t3 and nearly no use of jump packs and teleportas
I want Angry Marines and Pretty Marines. Pretty Marines with Venerable Hello Kitty Dread (http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x...ught_600we.jpg). But what I really want the most is a new playable version of this mod with all races (not necessarily all the right models for all races).
I totally agree with everyone here when they ask for a release without the new models. Even just a 1.64 patch or something to address a few of the bigger balance issues.
I'm thinking gabe's mindset atm is go big or go home, seeing as we've been waiting patiently for 1.7 for the longest time now, might as well go all in and wait for the mega update. As much as I want a 1.64, I think that 1.7 is on the verge of being released, and we should just patiently wait for it some more.
@Lupus: I play GK TT and like them very much (yes i get alot of rage about their cheese) i'm happy to see the "buzz" about GK. On that note,we have enough marines for the time being and should focus on armies like Tau or Necrons
@ Wortverdreher: I'm not sure if your're serious or a troll
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