I have to say that 1.4 is just freaking great! There are some things that need tweaking but all in all a solid offering from GG way to go mate.
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I have to say that 1.4 is just freaking great! There are some things that need tweaking but all in all a solid offering from GG way to go mate.
Steel*Faith is correct, it takes inspiration from fluff and items from the codices. For example, I use the Codex as a guideline for squad sizes, appropriate upgrades/wargear, and relative power levels, but a lot of it comes from fluff, the "codex stories" and creative application of gaming principles since the DOW2 system is very different from the TT system of combat. One is realtime and attrition-based, and the other is turn-based and goes by chance, rolling on a d6. The Iron Halo, for example, provides a force field in this game that trades energy to mitigate incoming damage, whereas in the tt game, it provides a 5+ invulnerable save. Completely different from tt, yet the halo works well in this game.
A lot of DOW2 is going to be the creative interpretation of things from the codex, not the literal translation of stats and abilities.
This time I really DO want the community to post suggestions/balance changes here on this forum, so I don't have to chase things down on 5 different forums and take notes on the 500 /tells I receive this week LOL. I appreciate the input guise but please, put all the comments and suggestions in one place. Thanks!
Just out of curiosity (since the mod draws from TT as well as fluff):
Will tacs/scouts be given the ability to equip Missile Launchers?
Will Sternguards have the ability to equip special weapons? (they can have Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Plasma Gun/Cannon, Lascannon, Melta, Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter)
Will the Venerable Dreadnought have all the upgrades in the Codex available (eventually)?
Will Assault Space Marines be able to upgrade with Hand Flamers/Plasma Pistols?
Will Eldar Warlocks (the normal ones) get the rest of the Warlock powers (Conceal, Enhance, Destructor)?
Will we be able to upgrade the Dire Avenger Exarch with double Shuriken catapults (or Diresword+Pistol)?
Will Storm Guardians get Eldar Flamers?
Is there any chance of the Iimperial Guard showing up in this mod (since, you know, there is an MP mod for them)?
Will the mod at any point alter the campaign?
Storm guardians start with Eldar Flamers, and upgrade to Fusion Guns in tier 2.
Regarding the other warlock powers, it's possible but I want to balance up what we have first. The destructors they are equipped with fire on their own; the warlock hero's destructor power is too good to hand out to every guardian squad. Regarding the Avenger exarch, I would like to eventually get different Aspect warrior upgrades for exarchs, but since you can't change leader wargear without deleting the squad's wargear, it would simply be a different leader upgrade, and only one would be allowed per squad. So, for example, you could get an exarch that comes with diresword and pistol, or one that comes with dual shuriken catapults, but not both. And once you choose one, you can't change it unless that leader dies. That's just the way the upgrade system works right now. There are no models/anims for dual shuriken catapults right now, and I don't know how the diresword would work, perhaps a 1% chance to kill an enemy unit? We will have to see how Force Weapons are handled in Chaos Rising.
Embolden right now is kind of a combination of embolden and enhance, it increases resistance to suppression and it increases damage dealt by the squad.
Regarding the other heavy weapons for tacs/scouts, I could see giving Scouts the Vengeance rounds for their heavy bolter, or even a missile launcher in t2, but I really wanted AV to be the Dev's department. As far as Sternguards go, they have so many clickies with their special ammo types, that giving them a heavy weapon would be really redundant. Besides, they don't have enough room on the interface for cleansing flame or frag missile.
The ven dread will eventually get different weapon arm upgrades.
ASM don't need hand flamers, and the sergeant I believe gets a plasma pistol when you give him the power fist. I don't want ASM's to become the primary shooty squad in t2 or 3 because they've all got plas pistols and indomitable melee on top of that.
I do want to do IG at some point, probably not until we can import models/anims and I want to see what CR gives them in March.
u seriously, seriously need to fix supression. Suppression makes any infantry unit combat ineffective. Hell, it even slows down an FC in cqc. thats not the problem. The problem is that how fast units deal suppression. A Dev squad can deal suppression the second after it sets up.
No ones probably gonna set up so that enemies are on the very edge either. Youd want them to be medium-range to maximize damage. Even when they are on the edge, they get suppressed very very fast.
You need to increase the resistance to suppression under cover, and reduce the amount of suppression ALL suppression weapons deal. right now its ridiculous. I saw an Eldar guardian squad with a shuri plat in a building holding off an entire tyranid army.
I've also had similar expierences when i held off a tyranid army with a squad of devs, and apothecary, and a few marines fighting off another ork army.
Boost jump troops, are just get rid of them. Theyre jump radius is so small, that enemy units around the jump radius just shoot at them and cut them down. For Orks, the stormboys dont have enough health, and they will suffer heavy losses or get wiped out after a single jump. they cant engage multiple squads in melee at once, so theyll get cut down by the ones they cant. Sure, 1v1 theyll wreck, but now in the mod, you usually wont be caught with one squad. youll usually have another squad close by.
The only reasonable jump troops are the nid Warriors and Warp Spiders (terminators if they count). Partially because they do profiecently at range. Warriors are flexible, and since their entire race is usually melee, they work well. Warpspiders use jump to flank opponents at range, not melee, so theyre not usually a target magnet.
ASM on the other hand, are good at melee, but theres so damn few of them! even with the FC they die so fast. the FC is out there doin his thing, and the ASM next to him are getting cut down!
in other words: raise hp, increase the radius of the landing zone.
Already raised hp a tad, I could raise it more. I will increase the jump range for all jump pack troops tho.
1.5 changes will be posted on the main page tomorrow sometime.
About suppression , I am agree with Fallschirmjager . in fact I like more suppression in vanilla game the damage are good but insta suppress isn't fun and hero should be more resilient against suppression and ranged damage.
Scout does too much damage with their flamer , when they use their skill , they kill an entire guardian squad in a buiding in 1s .
If you raise HP for jump troop , I am afraid that spider will be OP against all ranged troop . I suggest that spider keep their hp but it would be great if you give them more melee damage.
Well, honestly, if you get caught that close to ranged without being in cover you deserve to get slammed down. If you were getting shot at by a couple of heavy machine guns you'd be pretty combat ineffective, I think.
Besides, if they set up outside or at the edge of their range they probably have something to either lure you in or make up for the lack of suppression damage.
Btw, Gabriel Gorgutz, thanks for letting me know that the mod will come to Chaos Rising (not that I needed incentive to get it
Is there any possibility that we could see Hawks for the Eldar (Guardian body, the Stormie Hellgun (from the campaign), and. . . something for the wings? damn
Ork stikkz are useless, does little damage and doesn't have the splash radius for the knockback to be effective. And slugga boyz take too long to perform it.
I suggest: up the damage slightly, larger splash radius. OR: longer stikk throw range
ADDITIONAL OR: have the stikkz do very little damage and no knockback to allies, so orkz can throw them when in the mix. (Ain't that orky?)
Also, what exactly is the purpose of the Burna Boyz?
Stikks are getting buffed already, and burna boyz are flame infantry and can damage vehicles. Burnas are also quite resistant to fire damage, they are the only unit in the game with infantry_fire_resist armor and flame_resistance_aura.
Damage increase and slight range increase for stikks.
Okay, scouts with their stealth and whatnot are proving to put other shooty units in the SM army on the sidelines. I do not think they are game-breakingly OP, but they are a better choice overall in kill power over tacs.
I am thinking that maybe, since in both fluff and on TT, scouts are less accurate on average than your usual tacs. Even though they are using bolters, they are not hitting as much. Why not decrease their accuracy somewhat to bring their damage in check?
Just an idea.
scouts have the same BS as Tacs do.
Edit: using old stats. Sorry. Scouts do have less in 5th ed.
Shotguns shouldn't do that much damage compared to a Bolter anyway if you are going by codex or fluff. It is inferior to the Bolter in stats and in fluff you can't compare a shotgun to a automatic rocket launcher.
Last edited by TDATL; 7th Jan 10 at 8:31 PM.
I just played a game of 3v3, me as SM with 2 normal eldar allies against 3 expert tyranids. The entire area was swarming with them and the landscape had been completely changed by their teraforming ability. It really did feel like a tyranid infestation.
We were quickly overwhelmed and trapped in the base. It was only until I could get two dreadnaughts with assault cannons and terminators that I was able to break out with the aid of orbital strikes lol. Even then I was beaten back a few times before eventually getting close to their base.
In the end I had killed 900+ tyranids. It was pretty laggy
Idea for stormboyz
make the entire stormboy squad made of stormboy nobz, a squad of 5 stormboy nobz
THAT would be badass, and would make them useful
then it would be stormboy nobz squad and not a stormboyz squad >.>
i meant increasing hp for melee jump troops other than the warrior, teddy.
but remember, this is a game, so sometimes we gotta give up the insta-suppression for balance -.-
Fall there tons of was to get out of suppression and combat it in this game I for one am happy that suppers ion works as good or better than an MG42 in CoH.
i think firedragons would be a good idea they are basically epic armoured guardians armed entirely with fusion guns and forced colour red , orange or yellow i painted mine red but thats just me
Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!
The Firedrakes stand read to serve.
If you didn't know Fulcaris it's not possible to import yet to DoW2.
Guise, please just test the mod out for 1 week, I will update anything that's in need of changes, I promise.
What I REALLY need data on, is the Dev heavy weapons for Space Marines: The plasma cannons, the lascannons, the multimelta, and the missile launchers.
I NEED to know what needs adjusting, and how. Even if it's a price decrease so you can get them easier, I need to see them in action more to get an accurate idea.
The list of units that will make it in if/when we can import models/anims and edit the UI:
Space Marines: Baal Predator, Predator Annihilator, Ironclad Dreadnought, Furioso Dreadnought (with melta gun and flamer, will replace 2 fisted dreadnought), Land Speeder, Land Raider, Chaplain (new commander), Senior Epistolary (librarian commander), servitors (both the choppy and shooty kind), a better techmarine with servo harness attacks and upgrades.
Eldar: Striking Scorpions (infiltrating heavy melee infantry), Swooping Hawks (jump infantry with long range and multiple grenade drops), Vyper Jetbike, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers
Orkz: Killa Kan (ranged walker vehicle), Battlewagon, Wierdboy commander, Mad Dok, Big Mek (assuming he isn't already in Chaos Rising).
Nids: Tyrant Guard (on the way, Chaos Rising), Hive Guard (new unit, like ranged TG), new models for all Carnifexes, Pyrovore, Venomthrope (new commander), Brood Lord (may be in Chaos Rising) Genestealers/Patriarch leader.
That's just a start, if we could expand the UI and make builder units I could add some deployable cover and structures with various upgrades that could be used as bunkers, reinforcement points, etc.
Hey Gabe,
I will try to start the Devs-Discussion:
Multimelta:
You will never see them used because their range is too short, they have a set-up time, no suppression and a slow fire rate. In all my matches (I’m only a fun gamer playing lan-matches with friends or compstomp but I think I’m able to see a problem) I had to retreat with Multimelta-Devs after killing one or too enemies. Due to their range and fire rate and the missing suppression you can’t keep the enemies’ hordes (since all enemies are of the swarmy kind that would be vital) under control. You can’t even kill many of them off till they arrive at your position. What does it matter for a Tyranid if he looses 4 Gaunts or two Warriors?
Suggestions:
They would have a better chance to survive if they wouldn’t have a set-up time and there shouldn’t be a firing arc. Hey, they don’t have suppression, they don’t have long range. There must be something they have. So make them similar to Missile-Devs.
Further I had the idea of keeping or slowing the rate of fire but install a firing cone (I think they do this in TT) which is able to kill many of the lesser enemies and some of the elites with one shot (something like a flamer but with one high damage blast). Would that be OP? I don’t think so because otherwise your opponent will simple walk through your fire without fear.
Plasma Cannon:
In my opinion the worst thing there is for Space Marines. You will never hit anything with it and you can’t support your troops against melee hordes because it does friendly fire. You have to focus your whole attention on the Plasma-Devs to direct their fire via the “Attack Ground Button”. Then and only then you have a chance to hit something.
I think there is also a bug at work with them. Everytime the normal Tacs accompanying the Devs are moving in to be able to fire their bolters too. I don’t have to mention that they’re usually killed in the process.
Suggestions:
I don’t know. Maybe I’m not a good enough player but I don’t think I will use them. Maybe if the Plasma Bolt would be faster and therefore able to hit even a moving target.
Las-Cannons and Missile Launchers:
I think they’re fine but you will not see them because in a typical DoW2-match there are only one or two vehicles per player. I was always able to kill those with a Powerfist or a Thunderhammer or Vengeance Rounds or Meltabombs or Tac-Meltas or Terminators or with the one or two vehicles I had. It is in my opinion more important to keep the opponent’s infantry in check. And that you can’t achieve with Las or Missiles.
Overall-suggestion for heavy weapons:
Remove the set-off time for all heavy weapons for all races in the game. Everyone should be able to flee instantly.
Thoughts on Space Marine melee troops:
ASMs and Assault Terminators (maybe you give them some clicky like the thing you get with sword and shield upgrade for the fc) won’t win the game for Space Marines. Since you will always have fewer soldiers than your adversary you can’t tie up all of the enemies forces and then you will be cut down by his supporting troops. Therefore I think most SM-Players will go for range troops with suppression.
At the end I really have to thank you for your efforts. That’s DoW2 as I imagined it. Your mod brought me back to playing DoW2 again after being too frustrated with the original’s balance and feeling of the armies. You are doing a great job.
PS: I hope you where able to understand everything since I’m not a native speaker.
PPS: I think Space Marines depend on suppression. So you will see those weapons more often than any other.
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 8th Jan 10 at 10:29 AM.
ASM/Vanguard fix: their regen rate will be significantly increased, granting them more battlefield longevity. Their jump range will be significantly enhanced as well.
These changes will also be applied to Stormboyz.
Predator fix: Still testing out the new projectile changes, it will hit terrain like a krak missile now. I just need to find the perfect blend of rate of fire and accuracy.
Multimeltas now don't have a setup time, deal more suppression, and can be fired as soon as you stop moving.
Plasma Cannon projectile speed greatly increased. Rate of fire slightly increased.
Two questions:
What do you think of switching the weapons of tacs and other races standard infantry when you're at your HQ? You can choose another weapon but you will always have to pay the full price. Something like that.
What about an assault cannon for the VenDread?
I doubt that that is posable Wort as for the Dread it is how he wants it.
You can't just use one troop to stop swarm , kill tank and walker ... Melta kill everything , if they do suppression , you can just use only them to win .
I don't agree for the change of Plasma canon , they are very powerful , you must use them with the help of other troops (dev to suppress , assault to stop vehicule or scout for knockback).
And for the switching of weapon at HQ , the game will become too easy ... you have scout , kommando , lictor and ranger to see what your ennemi is doing , just use them and upgrade wisely.
One suggestion about ranger , could you give them an upgrade to get their 1.3 riffle ? We could choose mobile suppression or powerful shot + knockback ...
PS: if you have problem to download the patch on filefront , I have uploaded on Megaupload http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JDUMHSHZ
1.4.1 is out, it fixes some sm heavy weapons in t3, moves van and stern sergeants to t2 where they are needed, and fixes the pred autocannon so it isn't overwhelming anymore.
"Fall there tons of was to get out of suppression and combat it in this game I for one am happy that suppers ion works as good or better than an MG42 in CoH."
ok, lets have a hypothetical match up. One Dev Squad, One Tac, one FC, defending a point, vs 3 Sluggas, 2 Shootas, 1 Warboss. All vanilla. How the hell are you supposed to break suppression when that one Dev squad suppresses ur entire army. Tacs are there to clean up, and that one FC can own your warboss while ur boyz watch in horror. You cant even get into grenade range, thats how bad they got you pinned down.
It seems in DoWII that the Suppressed state seems more like a Pinned state from CoH. Sure, you could say, "oh! call in Stormboyz!". Yah, well you already lost a lot of sluggas/shootas, so you would be forced to retreat. Then you would get stormboyz, reinforce your army, while the marines call in more...marines. its easy to get suppressed, hard to get out of it.
in that matchup why are you sending everything into the devs fire arc?
thats what scouting is for, to see potential deathtraps like that, and avoid them, or circumvent them............. it may be because everything is so fast-paced in dow2 that people forget to play the intel game, but in CE its so much mire important thanks to the faster kill rate...
that said, heroes really need more supression resistance.
oh just a thought: in TT orky leadership is based on how many orkies are in the squad, so with more orkies around, they're not as likely to run away (get surpressed)
would it be possible to add a small, stackable surpression resistance aura to each orky? it would fix the instant surpression problem, but wouldn't be overpowered because the boys die so fast anyways........... just a thought
I support that idea, the ork one.
Last edited by No_0ne; 8th Jan 10 at 5:15 PM.
because quite frankly, you dont have time to scout when your enemy controls more than half the map. or if your enemy is just camping a VP.
Scout's repair ability should be given to tacs.
i really think it would be good if everyone in CC took about 50-100% less ranged damage. in TT, you're not even allowed to shoot into CC. in fluff, I'm pretty sure that heavy fire support doesn't fire into CC because of target proirity and the chance of friendly fire (except maybe for orkz. they probably wouldn't care...)
about suppresion: isn't is supposed to be the DoW 2 equivalent of morale? if so, Nid synaspe and full ork mobs shouldn't even be affected by suppresion. all heroes should be HIGHLY resistant to suppresion, especially stubborn ones.
Imperial Guard Player
'The men of the Imperium are arrayed before you. They are ready to destroy those who would seek to rip the Imperium asunder.'
-Colonel McKendrick to Warmaster Fexizhaen, on his regiment of the Hadriasian 308th
I've noticed that the number of words in an Ork naming convention is exponentially proportional to that of its destructive power... -Darklight004
Well fist off Fall if the Sm Force has a dev squad that is 550 Rec and 50 power and 500 tac squad you should have Storm boyz or a loota of your own also a time honored tradition of flanking. When you flank you can throw your nades and even hit the WHAGGGGGA ! button Gl to you mateOriginally Posted by Fallschirmjager
@ No One: That is the worst Idea I have ever heard this is a Codex mod. Astartes are not motor pool techs they carry a bolter not a spanner.
@ Teddy: who wrote:
"You can't just use one troop to stop swarm , kill tank and walker ... Melta kill everything , if they do suppression , you can just use only them to win .
I don't agree for the change of Plasma canon , they are very powerful , you must use them with the help of other troops (dev to suppress , assault to stop vehicule or scout for knockback)."
I disagree. I know you can't stop a swarm with just one melta squad. But as it was you couldn't even stop one Warriorsquad cause you have a short range weapon with slow firing rate, firing arc and set-up time which does no suppression. So you will kill one or two enemies and then they're upon you. You have to retreat. And as a Space Marine you can't afford to walk around the map in specialist blobs to always support each other, consequently your troops have to be something like jack of all trades or at least some of your troops in some way. I think removing the set-up time and giving them a bit of suppression is not op. We'll see.
It's the same with plasma cannon:
Plasma Cannon as it was (slow plasma bolt) would be useless when not used with a suppression weapon. The problem is you are always in need of suppression. But I think the changes will improve this situation.
By the way I think Bastonne1 has a point: To make melee more attractive, units in a melee fight should take less damage from incoming fire. Although not as much.
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 8th Jan 10 at 7:48 PM.
i dunno, having units locked in melee actually get locked has ups and downs. it makes it more balanced(?), but it also reduces some races (space marines/eldar) ability to deal with cc units. i mean, it would feel kinda wierd if one slugga squad is beating up one guardian squad while 2-3 other squads are shooting at the slugga squad and not dealing any damage.
@markdawg: Lootas are T2, and Stormboyz people rarely get because quite frankly, they get ripped to shreds by like...anything worth their metal.
I think vehicles themselves should get a self repair ability, for marines you could call it Power of the Machine Spirit or something. in DoW1 it was a self buff that made the vehicle almost invulnerable, increased rate of fire, but lowered move speed.
Other than that, the repair ability and the units that have it are fine. Or maybe you could just give the HQ's a healing aura to vehicles aswell.
@MarkDawg: You're arguing that Scouts are more qualified to repair vehicles? Really?
Scout are the best to repair vehicule ... they can do that in invisibility state !!
I am agree with Uniforce for the resistance but only if it's a skill of the warboss (Kommando can scout and disrupt suppression with is nade , Mekano can stop them or suppress them himself).
For Melta , they are for killing , not control , we have heavy bolter for that .
At the moment , we have no much time to micro , suppression + assist = retreat immediately or you lose all your squad . In TT , we have a luck factor to hit ... to give to the Mod the same feeling , we could lower some damage for the squad who have less precision or we could give to each squad the same precision like in TT and we need lees courage damage by suppression . With that change we will have more time to micro and the game will be more tactical.
Btw Gabriel , could you give us the stat of Ork banner ... to know what buff they give and the radius ...
Last edited by Teddybigboyz; 9th Jan 10 at 1:22 AM.
okay ive finally got and tested 1.4, but i only rly have tested the eldar so far. i just have to say the avatar doesnt seem very buffed at all...he is still raped by firing spore mines and hormagaunts scratching at his feet......
the banshees seem a little better, i dont know whether thats a feature of 1.4 or im justing trying harder lol but they still die a bit too soon for my liking. also would it be possible to include a choise between mirror swords and the executioner for the banshee exarch?
Nex Angelus - The Angel of Death
okay ive finally got and tested 1.4, but i only rly have tested the eldar so far. i just have to say the avatar doesnt seem very buffed at all...he is still raped by firing spore mines and hormagaunts scratching at his feet......
the banshees seem a little better, i dont know whether thats a feature of 1.4 or im justing trying harder lol but they still die a bit too soon for my liking. also would it be possible to include a choise between mirror swords and the executioner for the banshee exarch?
sorry about the double post
Teddy, we are on the same side. My original suggestion was to let them "only kill everything" but without set-up time and firing arc and with a high damage cone (like the flamers' but with more range) blast, which kills or badly damages approaching enemies although they're not slowed down. I repeat: I think Meltas do this in TT too.
But they have to kill more enemies than before, because their range was too short and their firing rate too slow.
On suppression:
What about an global ability which allows the squad you choose to ignore suppression?
By the way: I think Relic said the coming Librarian will have an ability like that.
And:
Maybe there shouldn't be a general HQ repair aura but the ability for certain (not all) vehicles to self repair like the Wraithlord or the campaign dreadnought.
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 9th Jan 10 at 6:41 AM.
Since we're getting Annihilators in the coming Chaos expansion, you may want to wait for these to come, as they will also come with correct laser cannon FX.
@ Fall did you ever read zerocrak's how to be a pro player in CoH guide about flanking. If not go to Gr.org and read it. It will help you deal with HDB and such.
We could do an alternate Exarch leader with mirror blades. What type of differences would you like to see in each? A new clicky for mirror blades, and more damage for executioner?
It would be great to see some of gear from Last stand for hero ... like plasma riffle for commandant or a flamer for Mekano
I like the idea of the inclusion of Banshee Mirror blades.
Also something came to mind when playing the mod when thinking about new units etc. I recall during the campaign you encounter an Eldar Pathfinder (Ranger Hero) and it was a different model from the default Ranger, maybe think about using him for something, Pathfinder squads? I dont know just throwing it out there.
Other things to say the mod does seem to be fairly balanced and I enjoyed it. Looking forward to new versions.
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Just had an epic SM versus Eldar match, was close until the end. SM were well coordinated with dread/razor support and killed off several squads/fire prisms, made a good comeback and won.
ASM and Van Vets are now pwn. They are well worth getting. I may buff Banshees some more. Need to sandbox it with someone first, then make changes. Also, in 1.5 look for an alternate Exarch with mirror blades.
seconded on the mirror blades...
it gives the exarch an extra attack in meele, but removes the pistol, so there wouldn't be a clicky, but increased attack speed (20% from exarch, 50% increase fron standard shees) maybe a n increased chance for AoE Special?
executioner is higher strength, so more damage per hit, but same attack speed as shee standard
uniorce has it right
Gabriel, can you please post the link to Codex mod's steam group in the first post?
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/DoW2-CE
that what you want?
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