Dawn of War 2: Codex Edition

[rlilewis]

I really don't see how you can call Orks underpowered right now. They can tech up very fast and can start pumping out dreads quickly and cheaply (after getting to tier 2 I knocked out 5 dreads back to back and rushed their base). Not to mention having (IMO) one of the best tier 3 vehicles in game right now. That looted tank is very good... I think it is borderline OP right now because it costs slightly less than a pred, only costs 15 pop compared to the pred (18) and for a race that accumulates req so fast they are very easy to get hold of compared to SM who get crippled economically late game. They have excellent accuracy, amazing range, good manouverability so can kite dreads with ease and do good damage against all targets including heroes.

I mean whats not to love about the ork looted tank... hell I play SM often and I wish I could buy the damned things.

The only thing I would say against the Orks is that the kommando hero is a bit dull. Who wants to buy an ability that blows your self up or one that drops a grenade when you are running away like a pussy? Not very exciting to be honest. The remote detonated bomb looks pretty cool I guess but I can't be bothered when I have stickbombs. I normally always get the special shoota, extra equipment and stick bombs and then lose interest.

He's also got an annoying pathing issue that means he often has to go the long way around while ordinary orks can just go through the gap.

Why can't the kommando get that kick ass belt fed machine gun that the mek boy starts out with. It should have an ability to suppress infantry at will. Complete with stickbombs and an armour choice that increases his energy and gives a sprint ability then he could make a pretty good lone fighter.

Or he could go more of a stealth/raider path perhaps with a sniper rifle (that would be frickin awesome!), an armour that makes stealth drain no energy and dramatically increases his capping/decapping speed and then he could have mines/traps (mekboy upgrade atm!) so he can cause chaos behind enemy lines.

I think the Mekboy is by far the best commander for Orks at the moment. That starting gun is great and only gets better with upgrades and has the forcefield and teleporter. Then for abilities he has the repair and kult of speed, which are brilliant for that ork dread rush. Not to mention having a repair ability himself so if you have enough dreads attacking the base you can take one of them out and do repairs while the others keep the enemy busy, rinse repeat till they're dead.

[mortisorlp]

I for one agree with xBEASTx. I personally think that Ork Burna boyz are OP vs Eldar, and possibly SM (am gonna test them next).

As an example, an ork player can have two burna boyz squads out before eldar can have a DA, SS or SG squad out. All of these squads fail dismally in a little micro from 2 burna boyz squads. Reason being their spike damage and suppression is immediate and deadly. It means that any lightly armoured troop is immediately immolated and has to retreat immediately or suffer 50% - 75% losses. This allows Orks to win the first 2-3 engagements, which is enough to give the orks map control. Because Burna Boyz are anti-everything, once they have free reign of the map, then they can destroy powerfarms at ease. This means that the eldar's main counters to burna boyz - Suppression plats, Rangers, Vehicles, all of which require power, are impossible to reach.

I have done some testing and am currently uploading a short vid of what I mean.

If people have good vids or replays of equal ork and eldar players where the eldar actually wins early game vs 2 burna boyz, I would appreciate it if you could share so I can be convinced otherwise.

Metal Gearr and Smoking Joe have both said "oh, you should kite, and use Fleet of Foot, and Use Nades." All well and good, but the suppression stops kiting, fleet of foot is only available occasionally, as are nades. Where as Burna boyz are a continuous threat. Personally, I would like to know what the counter is for these units in early T1. Gabe, perhaps you can help me out?

I will post when I have some stuff about SM vs Burna boyz

[xBEASTx]

i annilated Joes burnas as eldar, jus get 1/2 Strike Scorp then WSE or Warlock (wld be much better) and tie up the flamers while plats suppress rest of his army.
If u hav warlock u can immolate rest of army and focus down the burnas wit ur SS and warlock. Wit a SCP firing aswell it shld make short work.

Im thinking sometihng along the lines of SS and SG build order. will have to try it out later tho

Thing is once the deff dreds came out my gens went bye bye, but i managed to kill dreds wit BLP. Then looted tanks came out and it was good game.

[Teddybigboyz]

For SM Flamers are an upgrade , I think Burna and Storm Guardian should cost some power , at least 300/10 or 15 ... they are too good and since they are here I never build shoota . Or they shouldn't suppress so fast (should take at least 5-6 s to suppress or make suppress a clicky skill like shoota) ...
Today in a 3v3 with a KNob + 2slugga and 2 Burna and the use of "Call da boyz" I killed entirely a Lictor and 4 squads of Gaunts (Therma and Horma) and just before the Lictor died I were attacked by Warlock and guardians + nade + Banshee + shout ... Warlock and Banshees Died , some of guardians could back ... And that was the Burna who give me the victory , with some micro I used Burna just to suppress the 2 heroes and melee squads , slugga did the rest with waagh . It's a little OP , ok perhaps if my opponent had better micro I should loose , but in this fight I should perhaps win a fight but I should back my army to not loose it ... I just stayed in the middle of the map with 2 ambushes on me and just powned them without lost (I just used 1 nade on a shuriken so my army wouldn't be suppress).

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

LOL back when they cost power, the players wanted them NOT to cost power! Gents, make up your minds plz - this patch is to hold you over until 1.7 next week.

The Kommando is getting the big machine gun and a suppress/ambush ability too, and a whole lot of other new stuff.

Stay tuned.

[Teddybigboyz]

By the way Gabriel ... could you haste the 2 Avatar's skills , it's impossible to hit anything with them . If not perhaps if you remove the mark on the ground of "The Wailing Doom" it could help (it's too easy to dodge it , like that it would be like Screamer's hability , you see his animation but don't know where he strikes). Or just change it so it would be like your Screamer's hability but with fire Fx (it's so great that "The Wailing Doom" is pitiful in comparison).

[Caeltos]

LOL back when they cost power, the players wanted them NOT to cost power!

Lo and behold, the metagame is starting to be established. What did I tell you?

[mortisorlp]

i annilated Joes burnas as eldar, jus get 1/2 Strike Scorp then WSE or Warlock (wld be much better) and tie up the flamers while plats suppress rest of his army.
If u hav warlock u can immolate rest of army and focus down the burnas wit ur SS and warlock. Wit a SCP firing aswell it shld make short work.

Im thinking sometihng along the lines of SS and SG build order. will have to try it out later tho

Thing is once the deff dreds came out my gens went bye bye, but i managed to kill dreds wit BLP. Then looted tanks came out and it was good game.

LOL, talking about earlier than that. An Ork player can get out 2 burna boy squads before Eldar can get out their first SS squad after their starting GDU. I tested it today.

Basically, if the ork hunts proactively with its sluggas capping and its two burna boys supported by hero going eldar hunting, you dont have time or power to get suppression. Finally, have you seen what happens to SS squads that charge into Burna Boyz? YOu are lucky to get 4 out of your squad alive.

[Kolaris]

Good stuff, I'll just jump right in to reporting a bug though - the Warp Spider squad Exarch's special attack hurts allied units. He just killed two of his own squad members with his fancy twirl.

[SovereignReigns]

LOL, talking about earlier than that. An Ork player can get out 2 burna boy squads before Eldar can get out their first SS squad after their starting GDU. I tested it today.

Basically, if the ork hunts proactively with its sluggas capping and its two burna boys supported by hero going eldar hunting, you dont have time or power to get suppression. Finally, have you seen what happens to SS squads that charge into Burna Boyz? YOu are lucky to get 4 out of your squad alive.

Fleet + FF on burnas works wonders, my friend.

Also, 20 power is not unfeasible with vanilla power income from base and 1-2 unactivated power nodes. Why the shuriken is not your first upgrade baffles me.

I for one agree with xBEASTx. I personally think that Ork Burna boyz are OP vs Eldar, and possibly SM (am gonna test them next).

As an example, an ork player can have two burna boyz squads out before eldar can have a DA, SS or SG squad out. All of these squads fail dismally in a little micro from 2 burna boyz squads. Reason being their spike damage and suppression is immediate and deadly. It means that any lightly armoured troop is immediately immolated and has to retreat immediately or suffer 50% - 75% losses. This allows Orks to win the first 2-3 engagements, which is enough to give the orks map control. Because Burna Boyz are anti-everything, once they have free reign of the map, then they can destroy powerfarms at ease. This means that the eldar's main counters to burna boyz - Suppression plats, Rangers, Vehicles, all of which require power, are impossible to reach.

I have done some testing and am currently uploading a short vid of what I mean.

If people have good vids or replays of equal ork and eldar players where the eldar actually wins early game vs 2 burna boyz, I would appreciate it if you could share so I can be convinced otherwise.

Metal Gearr and Smoking Joe have both said "oh, you should kite, and use Fleet of Foot, and Use Nades." All well and good, but the suppression stops kiting, fleet of foot is only available occasionally, as are nades. Where as Burna boyz are a continuous threat. Personally, I would like to know what the counter is for these units in early T1. Gabe, perhaps you can help me out?

I will post when I have some stuff about SM vs Burna boyz

Refer to my match against Smoking Joe. the one I won. WL against K-nob. was an awesome match.

I defeated his burnas, though he showed me later how effective a well used burna squad is.

Also, how to counter burna boyz? Kite them. Don't even let them in close. Well Played Eldar are neigh-untouchable, even by burna boyz.

[Kolaris]

Oh, on the issue of the K-Nobs Bomb Armor that makes him drop a stun bomb on retreat - why haven't you remade it into the old HUGE bomb when he dies instead? Certainly seems like something in the scope of this mod and the Hero.

It was a stupid change by Relic to begin with, unless you were planning to fill the slot with something else I'd love to see it back again.

[MarkDawg]

+1 to that I would love to see that back unless you have some better Idea.

SovereignReigns Did you save that replay I would like to watch it.

[mortisorlp]

@Sov,
it is my first upgrade, but that doesnt change the fact that by the time I have it he has already caused me to retreat twice.

To be totally honest though, Command lag is starting to really piss me off. For the longest time I thought my micro is not up to scratch, but when I practice it in Skirmish games, my micro is fine. The command lag that occurs when I am playing vs human opponents is terrible though. As you all know, half a second can be too late in micro terms, and the command lag throws it off often by about a second. Its not just this mod, but also vanilla. Strangely though the command lag is not synchronous with any game lag that is occurring.

Anyway, i digress. I still say that 2 burna squads out before eldar have their second squad out is unfair. It allows the orks map domination at a critical point where eldar needs to gain power and fast. It would be different if Storm Guardians are worth it. Bit IMO SGs need the same range and suppression as Burna Boys. After all, they are more expensive, and more fragile.

[MarkDawg]

Go with the FS storm for crowd control to deal with it.

[mortisorlp]

ok, good point, and of course warlock has immolate to turn the tables on them.
WSE suffers a bit though.

[SovereignReigns]

http://dow2live.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=808

May be outdated. Enjoy.

[MarkDawg]

The bonus that you get with the FS is that PS is a default power! So I say use that and nade spiking.(although I hate that tactic) GU Spam can also work.

[SovereignReigns]

I used a Warlock, got Immolate after suppression. LOLZ ensued

[mortisorlp]

well, watched, and video created (let me know if you would like a copy sov, comes in about 450 mb)

First thing I noticed though, you created a GDU squad straight away - which is the only T1 option that eldar can create out of the gate that beats creation of 2 burna boy squads. Secondly, Joe only created one burna boy squad, instead going for a Shoota squad way too early. If he had gone with a second burna squad, then each one would have been able to hunt the eldar squads separately and force a retreat. Admittedly, your hero work is excellent, and the Warlock has immolate and destructor which does the trick,

Still leaves the WSE a bit stuck in that position though. And as i said, he didnt go with two burnaboys, and you didnt go with DA, SS or SG as your second squad. So not exactly the situation I am saying.

However, on top of that, some fun action in that game with a good example of why Orks need to dominate in T1 (although I still think Burna boys are OP vs eldar - sorry, not going to change my mind on that).

Saying that though, I will say that this is my only outstanding major OP issue I think - having played and tested Eldar and SM and Orks thoroughly.

Dont play nids so dont feel in a position to comment.

However, the Avatar is still too slow and still goes down too quickly, and is not worth building, sorry gabe - I know you tried. Also, can we find anyway to stop a platform when deployed from sending all its guardians forward to shuri catapult range, instead of hanging back by the plat. In a game tonight several times i set up a DCannon and clicked an enemy target only for my Guardians to run blithely into the arc of a HB Tac that promptly suppressed and killed them with support. They were being spotted by rangers, so it wasnt a sight range thing. Plus Sov was also playing eldar that game and i believe it happened to him too.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

I can always speed him up next week and give his armor better stats. What exactly is he going down too fast to? Normal firearms? I am hesitant to make them do "zero" damage.

[No_0ne]

His attack animations take an ungodly amount of time to perform.

[MarkDawg]

+1 No One this unit needs to be redone. It would be better if you could only summon him as a global power and he hung around for like 5 minutes then vanished. I just think it's a broken unit they animations take to long it's not effective you only make one if you are in a game where you are Wooping the ass of your opponent the only real reason to make one is to taunt that you had enough resources to do so.

[rlilewis]

Well the thing is, he may have 11k health but I swear he seems to go down just as fast as say a wraithlord (which btw I am loving atm, so freakin good!) which only has a couple of thousand HP at best. This is when attacking bases btw so they have their base turrets.

I haven't played the latest RC yet so I'll download it tonight and try him out. I played a whole bunch of games as Eldar last night against nids and orcs and I think Eldar are looking pretty sweet atm, the striking scorps are really helping out down the low levels and I think they are fairly well balanced although they put up resistance against higher tier infantry they still get hammered.

[Teddybigboyz]

Avatar needs change on his skills ... he need a regen on battlefield like Carnifex and a charge (or immolator) , "The Wailing Doom" should be faster to explod or without warning so you can't know where he will strike (like screamer when he use his new hability). "Khaine's Wrath" should be as fast as Dread's "Emperor's Fist"

[Syrus101]

Gabe, I remember you saying that you would try making the Techmarine use his servo-arm in combat if you could modify/ make animations for it...

now I've heard that modifying/ making new animations is nigh impossible but then I just thought... ok what existing animations could the Techmarine use? then it hit me...

the Lictor, reason why is because he mainly uses those tendril arms on his back when it comes to attacking his prey

now I'm pretty sure you know where I’m going here

would it be possible to use some of the Lictor attack animations on the Techmarine so it can look like he is using his servo arm in close combat? or will he turn into some deformed hunchbacked extra for chaos when he tries to swing at his enemies?

its just an idea that could be worth trying

again great mod love it to bits

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

That's an idea that I had also, but when I tried it I got a bizarre looking model, because the lictor uses a different animation skeleton than the techmarine. The same thing happened when I tried to use termie animations and give him a storm bolter.

Even if I just give him a power axe and plasma pistol, his servo arm disappears and he doesn't animate properlly. The arm has its own animations for building things, and it doesn't even animate when repairing vehicles - you just see a little green wrench above his head. The only time you see the arm is when he's building things.

This leads me to believe that the techmarine was never finished by relic in time for the original open beta release. Then never got around to doing anything with his servo harness, just a few basic "crane" animaitons for building turrets.

I will try to re-assign his building animations to his melee attacks, and see if that helps. If not, we will simply have to use him as a ranged hero until such time as we can give him his own animations.

[TDATL]

quick bug report.

Warboss's custom shoota ability doesn't go away when you give him a different accessory.

[Teddybigboyz]

Shhhhh , don't tell him , let us our shoota !

[xenanator]

Not sure if intended but sternguard abilities can be spammed repeatedly, seems like you can refresh them by swapping between abilities and they don't really seem to drain any power - so shooty shooty shooty.......

It's kind of a funky glitch as sometimes you need to just press shortcut call sternguard, click move "like 1 cm and click"

So etc. hellfire, select, rightclick, hellfire, select, rightclick, hellfire....

This can be done FAST and sometimes it bugs but then you can just choose one of the different munition types and whooptidooh you can use the first one again...

Like I said I am not sure if this is intended but I'd immagine not...

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

That is a bug but I think I got it fixed for the next release.

[Syrus101]

I don't know if this either hasn’t been looked at or a change I haven’t been aware of but sync-kills at least with the Apo:
I've noticed that he still seems to take normal damage <or close to normal damage> when he is sync-killing his enemy. because of this he gets wiped because all the other guys are hammering into him while he is finishing a guy off...

now I know units still take damage when they are sync-killing but it was never 'normal' damage

luckily so far I have managed to use his heal ability just after he finishes his kill so I haven’t lost him yet but I have come close at least 4 times by now...

I am currently doing a battle as I write this and I thought to pass the info while its still fresh. was this intended or is this something that happened to be overlooked?

edit: I have been using his stock weapons as well as she Sanguine Chainsword, I'm going to try the Axe now and see if it only happens to be those weapons.

edit edit: I am also vs Orks so maybe its them that do normal damage to sync-killing enemies?

edit edit of the edit: the axe doesnt seem to change how much damage he takes while hes sync killing enemies...

[xBEASTx]

i think sync killing units should be invulnerable like they were in dow1 as this would be much better for big single units such as walkers and avatar etc

[MarkDawg]

Is it possible to mod though? That is the question. If it is a simple fix then it should be done. Sync-kills are there to bring artistry to the game not to get you pwned and pissed off.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

I can edit the amount of damage units take while sync-killing. Do we really want it to be zero?

[The Premove]

yes i agree with 0

[xenanator]

Hmm, not sure that I think lowering damage while synckilling to 0 is the right choice. I suggest you try lowering it at first and then lets see how it turns out. It might actually make some units prettymuch nigh unkillable... etc. Apothecary in melee, or worse Eldar Avatar...

[Kolaris]

Its already at 25%. You can't get much lower without going with 0.

[Caeltos]

I can't believe you are serious with the invulnerability for sync-killing for walkers. It was a major compliment during retail with walkers doing sync kill, then a rocket would hit them and do NO damage. It's not balanced for the walker, or the counter towards them.

Please reconsider.

[The Premove]

just sandboxed fexes with sov, and... jesus they SUCK
add a faster attack rate and more damage per hit, cause they hit like if they had pillows instead of scything talons, and attack soooo slow

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

The shovel tusker will be identical to the dreadnought in health and offense in next patch. There are 4 fex variants right now, make sure you are using the shovel tusker or screamer killer in melee - the ranged fexes aren't gonna beat a melee walker 1 v 1

[Syrus101]

hmm... I think either infantry should have sync-kill damage to 0 or it brought down to 15%

but anyway the only reason why I brought it up is because the Apo seems to get slaughtered while he is sync-killing, I haven't really noticed it with any other units…

[xBEASTx]

right you cant have one unit getting o% damage while sync killing while another gets 15% damage. either every unit gets 5% damage while sync killing or every unit is invulnerable.

i just think that invulnerability for the model sync killing is better because for example the avatar losses most its health while sync killing hormogaunts and sluggas than killing a significant elite enemy unit.
A model that is sync killing should be invulnerable; only one 1 out of the 10 sluggas being invulnerable is fine then when the one slugga is done the other units camping around it will kill it.
And this will still enable heavy walkers to do their job and sync kill a fodder unit without selling their life away!

however i do see the point if a missile hits during a sync kill and does no damage that's not really fluffy. can we add super effective weaponry types doing damage where as lesser weapon types do no damage? (especially against sync-killing units, like the avatar or carnifexes. "

[Wortverdreher]

I always liked the good old Gabriel Angelos. I know he is in there. If it is possible what about making him the standard model for the Force Commander?

I liked the old DoW1-way of invulnerability while sync-killing. So make units invulnerable (exception walkers). Although sync-kills may be eye candy no one would go in for a fancy kill allowing the enemy to shoot him for 2 minutes.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

The problem with the sync-kill thing is, all units take their sync-kill damage from the tuning_info.rbf file. So I can't seem to set different damage rates for different units. If so, I would set infantry to be invincible while sync-killing and walkers to take like 20-25% or so.

The other thing I could do is make normal melee and ranged weapons do even less damage to vehicle and avatar armor, like 1% or something, or even zero, but then you would NEED av weapons to deal with them because you would NOT be able to harm them with massed normal firepower AT ALL.

What do you think?

[The Premove]

how much % does normal weapons to avatar and vehicles right now?

[TDATL]

The problem with the sync-kill thing is, all units take their sync-kill damage from the tuning_info.rbf file. So I can't seem to set different damage rates for different units. If so, I would set infantry to be invincible while sync-killing and walkers to take like 20-25% or so.

The other thing I could do is make normal melee and ranged weapons do even less damage to vehicle and avatar armor, like 1% or something, or even zero, but then you would NEED av weapons to deal with them because you would NOT be able to harm them with massed normal firepower AT ALL.

It isn't the damage they take normally that is the problem. It is when they are in sync kills. Just make them take way less damage from of everything except BL's and Rockets and such while in a sync kill. Those weapons aren't used on troops that much anyway. Also, getting hit with one of those makes more sense to wipe you out anyway.

Personnally, I like vehicles that take almost no normal melee or small arms damage and are hard countered with AV weapons. CoH did this very well.

The Avatar would benefit a LOT by having his sync kill percentage turned way down. It would make balancing him easier and make him more useful in general.

[Syrus101]

TDATL has a point, perhaps you could simply lower the % of sync-kills with walkers, so its NOT like they NEVER do it but the occasional poor soul that happens to get that little extra attention :P

then again I've been playing a modded campaign and then chances for sync-kills is like never, and even though that makes combat faster, you get no satisfaction in close combat... the sync-kills are there to make the game more movie-like and to punish those units <I’m talking infantry vs infantry> would ruin what made DOW popular to begin with, DOW is an RTS game that looked good to watch as well as play, not a game where units simply blow each other up with simple animations

less sync-kills means faster combat, which can make it more tactful, however I for one like those sync-kills to not only watch but also gives you a extra few seconds to decide on what to do next

I do have to agree that the Avatar and even on occasions the Wraithlord have long sync kills, and reducing the chances for them I think is a good idea

[rlilewis]

Nononono I definitely agree with Caeltos, there is no need to make a unit take less damage while sync killing. It was bad in DoW and it will be bad now.

Besides the issue isn't about how much damage a unit takes while sync killing but how often they do a sync kill. The Avatar being the perfect example of what not to do.

I built him again yesterday and he did this ridiculously long sync kill against a gaunt! Its where he turns his blade upside down and slams it into the ground impaling the enemy. Ok sure it might look cool but no gag it takes like 15 seconds to complete. Now thankfully there were no other enemies around but if this had been in the enemy base... well he would have been screwed.

[xBEASTx]

leave the vehicle damage as it is, small arms and melee already do next to no damage against them as it is, but it still makes you think twice before running your walker into a blob un-supported.

can you make it so different weapons do different levels of damage to sync killing units? if you can then make AV weapons do about 20% and everything else 5% or something along the lines of that.

[Kolaris]

I think the Avatar just needs some AoE on his regular attacks. He swings his gigantic sword through about 15 Orks and picks one out of the crowd...

If he had AoE, at least a viable counter wouldn't be swarming him with cannon fodder, hoping he'll get stuck in a Sync-Kill while you hit him with AV.