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I don't know if you know how to edit the AI but nids need a look at.
Specifically their spore mine use and use of tyranoform. They use mines non-stop but never detonate them. They just send them back to their base and eat up their pop cap.
Tyranoform is used nonstop once they get the ability. While it makes the maps look cool it also can bring some serious lag and is more of an annoyance to never get a shot off from being knocked down.
I agree, especially regarding their terraforming ability. It seriously needs to be capped somehow; perhaps a global cap if possible because the lag becomes insane and I have a pretty decent PC.
More SM feedback
Devastator option for lasercannon and multimelta has the wrong tier description. Text says Requires stronghold lvl2 but they do infact require lvl3.
Tacticalsquad, timer on frag grenade is bugged after use. The icon doesn't update correctly meaning it shows ready immediately after use but cannot be used. That means you cannot see when it will be ready again either...
Techmarine, upon developing Orbs of the Omnisiah tech can no longer use repair ability untill he swaps to refractorfield in which case he gets repair ability back but has no actual refratorfield option...
Last edited by xenanator; 15th Jan 10 at 2:21 PM.
He saw streaks of fire dropping through the clouds and closed his eyes as he realised that they were the first salvoes of an orbital bombardment..... - Ben Counter "p. 403, Galaxy in Flames"
I am fixing the techmarine for the next release. When you say that Defend is bugged on the force commander, how exactly is it bugged?
Regarding timers on abilities, they are all a bit buggy, I don't think it's the mod. It's the same grenade abiltiy as retail scouts, I just assigned it to tacs and removed the scout sarge requirement. I didn't mess with the refresh indicator.
Dev weapons will get their right descriptors, and WS will likely get a health buff.
I don't know how to write AI yet, so if someone could volunteer to give us good AI, I'd greatly apprecitate it.
After more play tonight , Big boss has the same problems than Warlock , he is bad at tanking ... even with the last armor tac and scout do him too many damage . All melee commander need to be tougher in my opinion , and Big boss should be the most durable of all (he hasn't the mobility of other and shoulds have more life or armor).
Another request , could you give to him his own "Waaagh cry" (after all battle commander have a battle cry , why the Big boss hasn't a Waaagh ... this cry could balance his tanking hability).
As for the defend ability being bugged it just seems like it refuses to turn on nomatter how many times I press it and how much energy I have. So when I click it looks like I am defending maybe 1 second or maybe not even at all.
I think the timers bug is more of a graphical nature. So I guess saying the timers is bugged is kinda wrong, it just doesn't update graphically...
Btw when I mentioned assault guardians in my earlier post I hope you figured out that I did infact mean Storm Guardians...
To Teddybigboyz, no insult meant but - Warboss is real mean - he has lotsa hp and very good armor and huge damage and great abilities. He does not need a buff. This guy is wearing something close to terminator armor and he has retreat ability. Powerclaw and he'll rip through vehicles like butter. He's got stomp ability that when used correctly will prettymuch kill a guardian squad or take about half the health of a shee squad, likely sending them cowering home in retreat. Not to mention his ability to call da boyz - which when used with Mega armored nobs is insane... Btw -remember to give him wargearhehe - Bosspole adds hp and cyborgbits will let him do more damage and regen hp...
More feedback on the devastator squad.
It's fine pricewise and I think max2 of this is also good. My only comment on the devastator squads is that the laser cannon seems kinda obsolete given the fact that the multimeta cooks anything very fast and at good range, also vehicles. So since lasercannon cost more and has crap accuracy for shooting infantry and requires setup, the only thing I could come up with that I'd consider las cannon for would be hmmm nothing...
Orcs and waaagh - I personally don't see any problems with the income of orc Waaagh at the moment and if there is a problem I'd say they are not getting enough Waaagh. One thing that I mentioned earlier is that since the Tier 3 units all cost Waagh, it can be quite dangerous to make use of Waaagh skills too much and I see that as a possible problem since I believe that orcs rely on using those more than other factions. Atleast since so many of their units can use those skills they should be allowed to use them some right?? - hard to balance that ofcourse...
Last edited by xenanator; 15th Jan 10 at 5:11 PM.
i can't download 1.5.2. everytime i click the link, it says that it can't connect to the website.
other than that, penal legion is a melee choice for IG. they are about 30% more expensive than guardsmen though. the desperadoes rule is what makes them good, along with the fact they can outflank. thats why i suggested them as a call-in. every squad could randomly have one of the 3 powers (gunslingers, knife fighters, or psychopaths).
the leman russ seems a little big for DoW 2 currently. the fact that there are 7 variants of it and that it has 4 weapons+it can get more makes it a bit... too big. thats the reason i thought the hellhound+variants would be a better T3 tank.
Imperial Guard Player
'The men of the Imperium are arrayed before you. They are ready to destroy those who would seek to rip the Imperium asunder.'
-Colonel McKendrick to Warmaster Fexizhaen, on his regiment of the Hadriasian 308th
I've noticed that the number of words in an Ork naming convention is exponentially proportional to that of its destructive power... -Darklight004
Have you changed ork globals? Five minutes ago I was playing a game and ork roks killed my Sternguards with ONE hit. I have just built them, they walked out of my base, were rokked and then dead. I watched it. I tried to get them out of the rok area but they weren't thrown around and wounded as usual, they were dead when the first rok hit the ground.
There was only one other enemy: a lictor jumping my veterans. I don't think it was one of it's abilities. Strange.
By the way: My level 2 Terminators where down to 40% of their health.
Yeah, a Leman Russ is a bit big for DoW2 with its battle cannon and frontal heavy bolter upgradable to lascannon or heavy flamer. Plus it can get plasma cannon, multimelta, heavy flamer, or heavy bolter sponsons. And for the icing on the cake it can also get a pintle-mounted heavy stubber. And then of course there are all the variants such as Demolisher, Eradicator, Exterminator, Executioner, Conqueror, Vanquisher, and Punisher all of which can also mount the sponsons and frontal lascannon or heavy flamer and heavy stubber. So it would be just a little bit overpowered.
Simple solution: Make it less powerful. Not so many upgrades, not so much health, but IG isn't IG without a Leman Russ.
Gabe, I don't think there are real close combat units other than Orgyns. I think the Penal Legionnaires are decent close combat fighter. They have a special rule called knife fighters which grants them two close combat abilities (extra close combat weapon and rending).
Edit: That's what Bastonne1 said. My fault.
I would suggest not giving the IG turrets at all, per se, but instead pre-manned bunkers. It's more befitting for them flavor wise IMO, plus they could have a 360 degree firing range, which might be a nice perk for them.I really hope for an ability in constructing more IG-like turrets - massive to look at and dreadfull to most units. I just would be a little dissapointed if IG turrets looked puny like them on our bases. There could be a cap of more 1 than 3 to be placed in one game - maybe more?
And another way you might balance the Leman Russ is by adding more powerful units to the other races as well. I wouldn't advocate going out of the way to do so, but if they're going in anyway, that's an another option.
And I love the idea of the Steel Legion by the way. Quite ambitious though of course.
I don't think I messed with the damage of Rokz. I will make sure it's not doing so much for 1.5.3 this week. Give me a couple days, I've been a modding machine lol.
The Orbital his powerful too , 1 hit killed my seer concil yesterday ... if orbital , storm and rocks have the same power of destruction don't change them . 2 days ago , I used rocks on a Techmarine , a dread and a tac ...just one rock had touched the tac and killed only one member , no damage on the dread and the Tech because all the other rocks didn't touched them ... if rocks do less damage for 750 waaagh it won't be used anymore ...
Then they're all too powerful. If they do so much damage, you only need one lucky shot and it's game over. In my case the Veterans couldn't decide, which way around the cover they wanted to take (sometimes the pathing is really annoying).
What Teddy: Sometimes roks hit, sometimes they don't. It has nothing to do with the damage. If you want the same damage in the whole area, it would be ok for me, but lower the damage. There shouldn't be one shooting abilities - for no one. Ok, one shooting Guardians or Gaunts would be ok, but Space Marine Veterans or a Seer Council? Badly mauled ok, but please not all dead.
PS: Gabriel, take your time. It's already a very good mod.
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 16th Jan 10 at 6:52 AM.
I'll make sure global nukes aren't one-shotting elites.
UPDATE: Reduced the damage of all global nukes somewhat, they shouldn't one-shot expensive squads anymore, but should at least kill a couple members and force a retreat.
Tankbustas rokkits have had their damage increased by 15%, and mortars reduced slightly.
Dire Avengers cost reduced to 400/0, and upkeep now matches that of a Storm Guardian squad.
Still working on a fix for haywire/meltas, but I fear it may be the animation template and not the code in the abilities.
Ork Meganobz WILL be fixed and able to reinforce at base.
Regarding the LR, I will be sure to put at least one variant in for the IG to use.
Right now, here's the lineup for IG:
Tier 1: Guardsmen Squad, 12-man plus sergeant and commissar, total 14 (the largest squad we can have without pathing errors). Fodder infantry, can get multiple weapon upgrades, about equal to a Guardian Defender squad in firepower. In t1 they can get a weapon upgrade, a flamer, grenade launcher, or sniper rifle. In t2 they can get a melta gun or a plasma gun.
Stormtrooper Squad: 9-man squad plus sergeant, total of 10, hot-shot lasguns and sergeant comes with a bolter. They have about the same firepower as a dire avenger squad, plus their weapon upgrades bestow 2 weapons of the same type: flamers or grenade launchers in t1, plasma guns or melta guns in tier 2. They also get frag grenades to start. The sergeant is a detector. Stormtroopers are Elites.
Veteran Squad: 9-man squad plus sergeant, for a total of 10. The veteran squad is very versatile, and can choose from several unique upgrades: Forward Sentries provides cloaking and the ability to set mines, Demolitions grants melta bombs and demo charges (like the kommando's det pack), and Grenadiers lowers the refresh on frag grenades and provides more health to the squad. For weapons upgrades they can take shotguns (t1) instead of lasguns, or they can upgrades 3 of their members with plasma guns (t2), melta guns (t2), or flamers (t1), and start with frag grenades. Vet sergeants are detectors. Veterans are Elites.
Heavy Weapons Team: T1, a 10-man squad with a setup weapon. Starts with a heavy bolter, but can upgrade to a mortar in t1, or a lascannon, autocannon or missile launcher in t2. They can also deploy cover. The individual troops are fodder, but power investment for heavy weapons are not refunded.
Ratling Snipers: 5 in a squad. These are infiltrators who can snipe enemy targets from a good distance away. They are equivalent to scout snipers or rangers in offense, but severely vulnerable at close range. They make excellent scouts and spotters, and they detect stealth.
Tier 2: Scout Sentinel - using light vehicle armor, this one-man mech can provide fire support, gen harassment, or decap points (can't capture them though). Starts with a multi-laser, can upgrade to a heavy flamer, lascannon, missile launcher or autocannon. Scout sentinels are detectors.
Armored Sentinel - similar to the Scout Sentinel, but not as fast and does not detect stealth. It starts with a multi-laser, and can upgrade to a heavy flamer, lascannon, autocannon or missile launcher in t2, and can get a plasma cannon in t3. Even though it is an "armored" sentinel it still uses the light_vehicle armor, so beware, this is not a super-tough unit. Sentinels will be about as tough as an orky trukk.
Chimera: The troop transport of the IG makes its return, armed with a multi-laser and firing ports for transported infantry squads. The heavy bolter mounted in the front center can be upgraded to a heavy flamer. Comes with smoke launchers.
Ogryns: 4 ogryns plus the bone 'ead for a total of 5. Extremely tough heavy infantry, these are the only melee specialists among the IG. Ogryns are about as good as an upgraded Nobz squad in melee. Their ripper guns are quite effective, but not quite as good as the Flash Gitz Shootier Snazzguns, however the Ogryn's melee is very disruptive. If they go into a transport, you can't fit other squads in there with them.
Tier 3: Hellhound - if you thought cleansing flame was murder in the Space Marines hands, the Hellhound is like an upgraded version. This vehicle can upgrade to a Devil Dog, swapping out its Promethium cannon for a Melta cannon that does extreme damage to vehicles and single targets. It can also upgrade to Banewolf, making it the single deadliest anti-infantry aoe in the game, but note that the chem cannon does ZERO damage to vehicles and buildings. Comes with smoke launchers.
Leman Russ Battletank: The battlecannon can be replaced with a Vanquisher cannon or a Demolisher cannon, depending on player preference. These 3 variants are similar enough that we can fit them into one spot on the UI by having the battletank upgrade its turret. ALL Leman Russes start with a pintle-mounted storm bolter, heavy bolter sponsons, and a central heavy bolter. The central heavy bolter can be swapped out for a lascannon for added AV power.
Leman Russ Eradicator: The nova cannon fires large incendiary blasts that burn for a time, perfect for clearing out units in cover. The cannon is a clicky with a moderate recharge, so don't take it into battle with other tanks. The side sponsons can be upgraded to heavy flamers. The player can upgrade the eradicator cannon to the executioner heavy plasma cannon, but will lose the nova clicky.
Leman Russ Exterminator: The exterminator is much like the Predator in concept, it has a rapid fire autocannon and two side sponson heavy bolters. It can upgrade its sponsons to plasma cannons for long range assault, and its central heavy bolter can upgrade to a melta gun. It can also replace its autocannons with the Punisher gatling cannons.
I know, I KNOW that all LR variants can get the same upgrades in TT, but due to limited UI space I am lumping some together and making diff upgrades available to diff types of tanks. They will all get an "extra armor" upgrade but will move more slowly than SM or Eldar vehicles.
Last edited by Gabriel Gorgutz; 16th Jan 10 at 9:30 AM.
HWT's 10 members? i thought HWT's were individual teams of 2 men.
Check the codex, they can be up to 10 members strong. They still only have 1 heavy weapon, but the rest are normal Guardsmen. Given how easily troops get splattered in CE, either we make it a large squad to add to survivability, or we have 2 VERY unrealistically tough guardsmen behind that gun.
hm...wouldnt that just make it a Guardsmen squad with an attached HW? meh, i might be outdated atm tho.
dont think those models are gonna come any time soon, hell they dont even have an exporter out yet. anyways, good luck.
edit: looked up HWTs on GW and their squad composition is 3 heavy weapons with a total crew of 6 men.
Last edited by Fallschirmjager; 16th Jan 10 at 9:51 AM.
Fallschirmjäger is right. 5th edition Codex says (page 97):
Heavy Weapon Squad:
Composition: 3 Heavy Weapon Teams
Wargear: Flak armour, Mortar, Lasgun, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades
Options: Any Heavy Weapon Team may exchange its mortar for a: Heavy Bolter or Autocannon (cheapest upgrade) / Missile Launcher (medium costs) / Lascannon (most expensive upgrade)
and whole squad may exchange Frag for Krak grenades
Edit: I think in every country of this world it is ok to use quotes. But nevertheless I changed it according to fireball900's advise.
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 16th Jan 10 at 5:52 PM.
That's right, HWT is 6 men, an infantry platoon can attach a heavy weapon team to a guardsmen squad... HWT will be 6, no leaders, and will start with mortars and can upgrade to the afforementioned heavy weapons.
What I always wanted to ask: Would it be too much, too op, too whatever to have 2 Terminator Squads? Maybe one from the base and one as a call-in.
For skins for imperial guard, have you ever played the squad mod? After a couple of missions, as a reward you get a green drop pod, if you drop it in during a mission, it releases like 6 IG squads, with all the skins including lasgun shots and what not, and sergeants as well. This also includes Ogryns and Stormtroopers. Take the skins from there, then all you'll need is the vehicles. Also you should implement psykers in there somewhere, they are a pretty key part in IG and would be epic in general.
On a side note, Id like to thank you and tell you that you are awesome. This mod has taken Dow2 to places I could only have dreamed it would ever reach. You are awesome and can't wait to see future additions and updates.
hehe - tank heaven - all of IG Tier3 is Tank fun!
Will the Leman Russ share a cap?
Will the Sentinels share a cap?
With the Leman Russ exterminator, do you mean melta or Multi-melta? Considering its sponson upgrade to plasma cannons for 'long range assault' that seems a bit short-ranged.
With the 'sentinels are as tough as an ork truck,' do you mean armoured or scout sentinels?
With the Stormtroopers, is the only way they are better than Veterans in that they have Hotshots? Because if that is so then it might be that they do not get used much due to not being unique enough - their role would be fulfilled by the Veterans (who can also do it better (more special weapons), as well as other roles at the same time).
How are Tier1 close combat rushes going to be handled? Are veterans/stormtroopers going to be 'ok' at close combat?
Have you decided on heroes yet?
Nice idea with the eradicator cannon.
@Wort - while thanks for the codex note, I suggest you change the point numbers to '(X) points' - GW have been very touchy about their IP lately, and seem to be going out of their way to make sure that the free publicity they recieve on the internet is cut down on.
And WELL DONE with the modIt's better than I could have ever hoped already!
'Who gave you permission to die!? Keep fighting!'
'The points of war is not to die for the Emperor, but to the make the other frak-heads die instead!'
'I can't die! I'm too busy!'
ok, just finished another evening of gaming
Things of note. The pred is WAYYYY Too powerful.
I have a replay where just one took out my entire eldar army of GU with SCP, GU with DCannon, WS, SG and I think DA. Plus a WSE.
Likewise, a dred moves faster than a Falcon - which is just plainly not right.
Seer Councils need a buff. They are way too squishy, and dont really do enough damage.
SMs need a buff on lascannon - there really is no point in getting one at the mo.
On the plus side, I am slowly coming round to Dire Avengers. Their damage output when backed up by 1-2 GU squads is impressive, but nades (for all races) need a buff and need to work faster, and DA squads Bladestorm ability ABSOLUTELY needs to suppress.
Also, I would like to stress again. The pred needs a nerf
As for the IG army proposed Gorgutz, that sounds fine, although without buildable bunkers etc, they are gonna be murdered by any jump troops. Also, T3 is gonna be a tank rush by IG. It means that come T3 - if they made it that far, and its a big if, then they will wipe the floor with most armies simply because they have a tank for everything
I think especially the uberelite close combat units are too squishy - even Assault Terminators. But maybe I'm not playing them right. They are always half dead when finally engaging the enemy. And you always have to choose: Teleport in to prevent the enemy shooting at you or teleport out to flee.
Mort, the whole point of the IG is to tank rush as soon as possible. Its just what they do.
And Gabe, I'm with fireball. Stormtroopers need to be different from Veterans. Hotshot lasguns are so powerful even SM power armor is penetrated by them. You might want to make stormtroopers a very powerful T2 ranged unit to complement the melee Ogryns, especially since Ogryns are the only T2 infantry the IG have right now.
Seers will be about equal to a veteran SM squad in future update, and the eldar tanks will likely be sped up. Last night I did a bunch of 3v3 with the players who've been with the mod since its inception, and we dealt with a pred using brightlances and wraithlords. Using Doom with a farseer helps too. I should probably increase the range of melta bombs and haywire grenades, too.
What kind of lascannon buff would you like to see? Rate of fire, perhaps? What if the lascannon made it to T2, and the multimelta stayed at t3?
In the next patch, Dire Avengers will cost 400/0 and present a long range alternative to storm guardians. Blade storm could certainly add the same suppression rate as eldar flamers, especially considering it's t2.
It could be that the autocannon should do less damage to vehicles, I will look into that. I really DO want the pred to eat infantry though. The high rate of fire is what the autocannon is supposed to have, refer to the lore and the original pred from dow 1.
Interesting idea on the stormtroopers SpardaSon, I may swap the scout sentinel with the stormtroopers, or give stormtroopers the infiltration upgrade to set them apart from veterans. Or I may hardcap veteran squads at 1, so you can only have 1 of them out at a time, to represent how elite and rare a true squad of IG vet troopers are. Stormtroopers could do more dps right out of the box, but veterans can get unique upgrades and an extra special weapon trooper. I am open to ideas on how to differentiate the two.
IG versus melee rushes, would have to be handled the way IG traditionally handles them - veterans and stormtroopers will be "ok" in close combat, but you'd probably be better off letting guardsmen "tank" while the better weapons and marksmen fire into the melee. IG will provide full req refund when they die, so other than veterancy and special weapons upgrades, you won't lose much if a squad of regular IG goes down. Now, they also get commissars and sergeants in t1, and each gets a power weapon and plasma pistol, and their melee capability is enough to knock around a few gaunts while the men regroup.
Guardsmen will not be "pathetic" right out of the box, the same way guardians are not "pathetic." They can't really stand up to other races melee troops, but they don't instantly die to them either. And remember, you'll get fire support in the form of heavy weapons teams in t1, and scout sentinels with a multi-laser, upgradable to a heavy flamer in t1. You do have options for gunning down the swarm.
Lastly, each IG hero will possess a retinue of bodyguards that will form a type of "command squad" like in the first dow game. Stormtrooper/kasrkin bodyguards will be of the sergeant quality and will carry hellguns and power weapons, and I expect that they will be about as good as a vanilla tac squad in melee. That is to say, they can hold their own, but aren't going to take on nobz or warrior broods by themselves in melee.
The whole point of the IG army is to organize and maintain troop formations while you roll out the heavy armor and crush the enemy under a rain of fire and steel. You'll take losses somewhere between Eldar and Orkz, but there's always another squad.
And the globals will reflect this: Send in the next wave! will be like Call Da Boyz in principle, and We have reserves! Will spawn a couple of IG squads at base, kind of like Without Number. The other 3 globals will be nukes, one being an Earthshaker round, one being a Valkyrie strafing run, and the last one being the uber-nuke, comparable to orbital barrage: the Deathsrike Missile - an actual nuke (well, plasma warhead, but similar effect). IG will rely heavily on mortars, weapon emplacements, bunkers, and globals to thin enemy numbers while the tanks grind ever forward and the troops march on.
It'll be glorious, trust me. You like what I did with SM, right? I will do the Guard similar justice.
I totally plan on using buildable bunkers for the IG. If nothing else, I will make the bunkers from Angel Gate a buildable structure, and they will connect like the Ravener alpha tunnels currently do. I am currently thinking up a way to get the Techpriest Enginseer and his servitor retinue in-game, they'd have to be t1 but not a combat unit... I think I will eventually make it so each faction has 2 buildings to start, the existing one that spawns troops and respawns leaders, and a second one (they're already in the game, just not used in mp) that spawns vehicles. Then I could use 2 ui's, and get more units in the game that way... it's an early concept, but do-able nonetheless.
Last edited by Gabriel Gorgutz; 16th Jan 10 at 6:41 PM.
Hm ... you want to cap Veterans? Or Stormtroopers? Codex says Stormtroopers are expensive Elites while Veterans are not so expensive Troops. Statwise Stormtroopers only got a better armour. I'm confused ...
Just read your 2-hqs-idea: Do I have to destroy both structures in annihilation matches?
Well then, IG buffs, straighten me out on the stormtooper vs veteran issue. Should stormtroopers get better stats across the board, longer range and more dps with hotshot lasguns? Should they get infil? I haven't capped anything yet. It's just conceptual at this stage.
sounds good. One thing I'm worried by though is that in canon a Deathstrike missile is exactly that - 'death.' They were originally designed for apocalypse, and in TT they will pretty much vaporize anything they hit, even more so than the orbital barrage does (orbital barrage is still a blast in TT - Deathstrike does full damage to all AOE, meaning it is DEADLY against vehicles).
Have you decided on heroes yet?
Personally, I've been thinking about a future Tanith force - Gaunt, Corbec & Rawne :P
I want to hear players' ideas on who the heroes should be. There are so many to choose from. Primaris Psyker and his retinue of sanctioned lunatics would be a good one, a Company Commander with bodyguard retinue is another, and for he third... a Vindicare assassin? An Eversor assassin? Another commander/retinue type unit?
I wasn't a great fan of Veterans AND Stormtroopers, because they are too similar. I would suggest another squad of the IG Army List. Maybe Psyker Battle Squad.
Heroes:
General
Priest
Commissar
(see what Fireball900 wrote on page 8 on heroes. I liked it)
PS: Guardsmen are (in novels) a superstitious lot. I don't think they would have a primaris psyker as leader.
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 16th Jan 10 at 6:58 PM.
I think you should look into a Lord Commissar as one of the heroes.
Last edited by No_0ne; 16th Jan 10 at 7:19 PM.
UPDATE: I've been talking with modding prodigy OneProduct and he is going to help me get extra heroes/units into the game interface.
In the beginning, you will have 3 toggle buttons on your HQ interface. The game will start paused. The first is "heroes" and you choose one of 5 heroes. Once all players have chosen their hero, the game starts as normal. The 2 options for the HQ will be "troops" and "vehicles" - this will give us one whole page for infantry, and one whole page for vehicles.
Another option I like is to spawn a second building in the HQ area, right next to the HQ spawning point. This will likely be the supply depot from the building ebps files, but since we can get custom models I could make it a Machine Cult, etc... this is your building for vehicles. You can "detech" the enemy by destroying their vehicle base, but that does not end the game. You have to destroy the HQ to win an "annihilate" victory.
I also want base turrets to leave revivable wrecks. This way you can get your base defenses up again after a raid.
What do you all think? Would this lend the level of strategic depth that players have been longing for, without resorting to "base building" or standard rts fare that ppl want to stay away from?
The reason for the hero selection happening after the map loads as opposed to the hero selection in the pre-game screen, is so that we can fit more than 3 heroes into the game per faction.
Ultimately we want 5, right?
Will the AI be able to choose the heroes the way you suggest? I have to ask this because I (and especially my friends who don't want to play against me most of the time) like a good old compstomp (if only the AI would be a better opponent ...)
So who are the 2 additional heroes per army?
Edit: Be cautious about to many units and to many options and upgrades. When you can get 15 different infantry units no one or only experts will be able to know the differences between those units and their role on the battlefield.
Does this mean I have to choose between an HQ that can "build" infantry or vehicles?The 2 options for the HQ will be "troops" and "vehicles"
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 16th Jan 10 at 7:56 PM.
Gabe, I think its against forum rules to post TT stats, so I'll shoot you what I know in a PM. It isn't much as I don't play TT, but I have picked up a few things from hanging out on FoK's forums.
I am not necessarily going to fill the whole UI with units, but it would be nice to add landspeeders and bikes to the ui, and to be able to fit every aspect warrior into tiers 1 and 2.
Also, it would be good to make every LR and Hellhound variant a separate choice, so we can save upgrade slots for things like different sponsons and so on.
The computer is not my concern right now, I need someone who knows how to write AI before we can begin with the computer issues.
I don't like it to not being able to play a compstomp match. But I have another suggestion: Can't there be additional heroes to build. Than you get the typical choice between the three heroes and ingame you will get the option to build another one of two additional heroes just as any other unit.
Like Wort, I don't think the Guardsmen would follow a Psyker. By the same logic, I doubt they would follow a Vindicare either (or any other type of assassin).
Also, when you create new units, don't go overboard. Add each unit because they fullfill a specific role, not just because you can.
Okay - veterans/stormtroopers -
First the canon;
Veterans are guard who have lived a long time (well, for a human in one of the most dangerous galaxies in the multiverse). They have picked up skills/tricks from past battles, and their equipment can vary greatly. They are the toughest/luckiest.
The Stormtroopers are trained to give the Inquisition good foot-soldiers, although less than 5% make the grade - the 'failed' troopers are palmed of to the guard. These troops have been trained to be good; their skills are the result of years of training, and their equipment will be better than that of normal guardsmen; carapace armour, hellguns&targeters or hotshot rifles and krak&frag grenades are standard gear.
Gamewise;
Veterans - I like the idea of the three unique upgrades. I think they should probably provide you with a unit that provides you with abilities - a support unit. Give them better accuracy than regular guard, but keep their standard DPS fairly low - their power come from their clickies. Either bombs, 'nades, or mines.
Basically, you could keep them the way you said, just don't give them the ability for special weapons.
Stormtroopers, on the other hand, should the good old reliables. Tough (due to carapace armour), good attack (hellguns basic, upgrade to hotshots later), good suppression resist. They come with krak&frag, so can be relied on for most situations. Give them 2 special weapons like you said. Don't give their sergeant detector, leave that for the veterans.
They're both elite, and ok in close combat - stormtroops are tougher, but veterans would have more DPS in CC (dirty tricks, remember?). Of course, you don't really want either of them in CC with Space Marines, so the difference is moot anyway.
Give them both caps of 2 each, as they are (relatively) rare.
I like the manned bunkers idea.
As far as revivable turrets go, that could certainly be a good idea. Make it so they don't revive straight away though - maybe 30sec/half Health before they come back online.
Could the 2nd building be Tier3, effectively; instead of upgrading to Tier 3, you just get the building.
I have to say I think that one of the heroes for IG should be a Techpriest, and his command squad should be Engineseers and Servitors, with Engineseers being a T1 infantry unit which will build and repair.
Also, I do like the idea of a rebuildable base turret. Also, maybe you could upgrade them to be AV in T2 and Artillery in T3. Would it be possible to maybe make a 3rd turret. That way you could upgrade 1 turret to each type.
Also, I do think you need to be worried about Skirmish issues. I think what would be absolutely lovely would be to choose the PC heroes at that moment as well. Alternatively, buildable sub-leader units is an option. Also, I think the Lascannon should be moved to T2, and a slight ROF increase.
As for the Pred - exactly how many units - both vehicles and AV infantry did it take to destroy it. Seriously - I have the replay (gonna review it tomorrow, and probably take a video of it - should please the SM fanbois.). There is no way a Pred should be able to take out a D Cannon, Falcon upgraded and other infantry pouring fire into it.
If you want it to be Anti-infantry, then surely that is what the side sponsoons are for? I think you should give it two upgrades - 1 is AI, a rapid rate of fire and damage to infantry, or 2 is AV, one big shot with a poor rate of fire that does decent damage to vehicles. you could complement it with different sponsoon weps. 1 - Rapid Autocannon but with Multimeltas for close range AV, 2 - Slower Cannon for AV, and heavy bolters for suppression of infantry.
However saying that, I do think its a bit tough. It could do with a bit of a knockdown on its health - not by much, just a bit. After all, in TT a lot of AV weps are capable of knocking out a pred in one hit. A Pred after all is a light battle tank. A medium battle tank is a Leman Russ - a heavy battle tank is something like the Malcador IIRC.
Also, I think the FP needs a bit of a longer range. If its gonna be that fragile, it needs to be able to attack outside of an easy range from Jump troops unless they flank.
Also, I think a Starcannon needs to do serious damage to heavy infantry. It should be the weapon you choose to take apart normal SM and that Termies should fear. Otherwise there is no point to it.
I agree with mort, I think the FP does need longer range, considering it is the epitome of 'glass cannon.'
As far as the pred goes though... You don't get two different autocannons in canon. its only one. However, decreasing the rate fo fire (and increasing the damage to compensate) would work; in TT&canon the gun is best for killing heavy infantry & light tanks. Slow(ish), powerful firing would do that. whats its firing rate per second now? maybe decreasing it by 33% or so?
Oh, and the Pred is a battle tank, not light! Like the German Panzer & British Sherman; Panzer is definately better, but they are still both medium. (sorry bout the WW2 examples, playing CoH at mo).
Anyway, if it was light what would that make the Ork Tank?
Heros for IG:
Commissar
General
Inquisitor
Starcannons are already similar to the SM plasma gun. People just don't think of guardians as a run and gun unit, they love the plats.
2 x gu with starcannons will kill sm relatively quickly. Add a ranger squad taking pot shots and you'll likely get accused of cheating lol.
The fire prism will get toughened up. It is a tank after all. I had no idea that the pred was still doing so much to vehicles, it shouldn't be taking out walkers and other tanks so easily. I'll look into its av damage, and it'll have the same health as the razorback.
In the game where I defeated the pred, I used 2 x brightlances and spotted with a stealthed ranger squad.
After reading all the posts I think that as hero options we can have:
IG
General or Comissar
(because gameplay-wise they are not that different, i mean fluff-wise General have more global permissions (i.e. globals in DoW2) and Comissar have local order permissions (clickies in DoW2). So we just could combine those 2.
That's why let's take Comissar as he's more cool looking =) Generals are anyways fluff-wise sitting in their bunkers giving orders from there.
Let's give him some AoE buff clickie for infantry, giving them major boost to HP regen, attack rate and damage +breaks supression and grants immune to it for several seconds (wargear upgrade) but decreases accuracy a bit. Perhaps this could be his Execute, why not?
Have standart Pistol and Sabre (not power one) at start.
Weapon Slot
Tier 1:
Master crafted pistol and chainsword.
Tier 2:
Plasma Gun and Power fist.
Tier 3:
Master Crafted Plasma Gun and Master Crafted Power Sabre.
Armor Options:
Tier 1:
*Royal Carapace Armor: Greatly Increases HP and Armor and grants Deffend Ability (similar to SM FC one)
Tier 2:
*General Commendations: Reduces energy cost and recharge times of all clickies. And grants "For the Emperor!" clickie which restores his health and grants temporary boost to attac rate and damage and immune to suppression.
Tier 3:
*Bionics: Greatly Increases Energy, Energy Regen and Movement Speed. Greatly Increases ranged accuracy and melee attack speed. Also grants "Adrenaline Rush" ability to instantly restore his Energy.
Accessory Wargear
Tier 1
*His execute also breaks suppression and grants temporary huge suppression ressistance to nearby troops.
Tier 3
*From General can inherit Artillery Strike the one from SM campaign.
*And another clicke ability that reduces build times of all units and vehicles temporary.
Techpriest
High accuracy and ranged damage, low-health, various AoE buffs for allied vehicles and debuffs for enemy ones. and some auto-repair aura (very slow and weak, increase-able by special wargear option)
His ranged attack is good but it can't be improved much by wargear.
While SM Techmarine have more weapon options, Techpriest will have more different vehicle buffs/debuffs ones.
Thanks to his Power Axe, his melee attack is significant.
Have some kind of 3-5 second invulnerable selfbuff clickie at start to compensate his very low HP.
You'll most likely loose him, if your reinforcements will be late.
Warger: Will write later =)
Inquisitor
Primaris Psyker
Due to his major psychical abilities he can Make his troops follow him.
Vindicare Assassin
Fluff-wise he can be assigned to a special mission where he must lead a quick-strike force to somethere etc.
Perhaps the last 2 are not that good fluff-wise but they will be very interesting choice gameplay-wise.
What you think Gabe?
Please check out my mod for Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne
http://www.moddb.com/mods/circle-of-war
Hi Gabriel, what I think needs some tweaks is the capillary towers. The positive / negative bonuses it provides either stack up or there is some other problem asociated with them. I played 2 vs 2 AI match with orks against tyranids and at the end of the game, a single tyranid AI using only about half of its army was able to hold against 2 ork players as long as the fight took place between the capillary towers. There was unbelievable amount of these towers, I'm not against them being available in such a generous amount but then they should be either easier to destroy (crushable by tanks, walkers, terminators, have lower hp) or the bonuses should not stack. This was not that obvious with space marines but orks really have problems when fighting next to these towers.
Claymore
If you want all the commanders for every army. What do you think of (instead of a paused game an making choices as you've described above) primary commanders (to be chosen before you play a match) and 3 secondary commanders (buildable like all other units/without globals/ but with clickies and wargear)(for example SM: Librarian, Chaplain, Master of the Scouts)
I will make sure that capillary towers do not stack in next patch, I am pretty sure that they don't already. However, be aware that the AI does cheat, and the towers spam is part of the AI but that's already been discussed.
We could do primary/secondary commanders, but I don't want the game to become a hero fest. And it's hard enough to balance 1 commander per team, 2 commanders leveling to 10 with that level of wargear would make certain troops choices obsolete, I'm afraid. Once you get fc/chappy you only really need some snipers or a dev team and you're set to smash and bash.
I don't want a hero fest too, but I sometimes want to play a compstomp. And as I understood it the AI won't be able to choose the commanders the way you described above (ingame when paused at the beginning). Consequently no one can play a simple compstomp.
By the way:
1. Is it possible to combine the mod and some mappacks?
2. Is it possible to create a "free-for-all-mode"? (I know you cannot play it on the maps we have, thats the reason for question #1)
Last edited by Wortverdreher; 17th Jan 10 at 9:50 AM.
on devs lascannons
maybe make their rate of fire abit higher or give them more acurracy or knockdown vs inf.
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