No-Brainer Balance Fix List

[Croaxleigh]

Time to continue an age-old tradition here... it's the return of the No-Brainer list! It's being done a little bit differently this time around, though; the original No-Brainer list focused only on bugs, but this time we're doing lists for balance and AI as well. These lists will help to isolate specific areas that any Relic devs or modders who read them may wish to improve upon in their work.

Here's how this is going to work. This thread will serve as both a list and a respectful discussion area for items that others have mentioned. Any off-topic posts, argumentative posts, or posts that don't directly address a balance issue will be deleted.

Posts should follow this format:

* Name of Balance Issue #1: Suggested fix
* Name of Balance Issue #2: Suggested fix

When replying to another's post, use the quote function to quote the SPECIFIC BALANCE ISSUE that you are discussing; don't quite the whole post.

Any issues which are fixed in Chaos Rising can be pointed out in the thread as well and will be removed from the master list.

Note that this thread is for BALANCE issues only. the No-Brainer BUGS list is HERE, and the No-Brainer AI list is HERE.

[The_nuketrooper]

Gu reinforcement price too low - bring in line with other units.
Gu warlock price too low - bring in line with other squad leaders.

[Buguba]

Both the Hive Tyrant AND Lictor Alpha mycetic spore call-ins do not automatically reinforce nearby units as advertised. They provide the *ability* for nearby units to reinforce, but it's clear that the abilities were intended to mimic the current state of the Space Marine Drop Pod (where all nearby squads are reinforced free of charge and without delay).

Adding on to this, the Hive Tyrant and Lictor Alpha mycetic spore call-ins have questionable costs associated with what they do (assuming no automatic reinforcement is intended). While as the Space Marine Drop Pod ability is becomes more than worth its cost by only reinforcing three Marines, the Tyranid call-ins require similar requisition to the base cost of the squad they are producing. The Hive Tyrant Warrior call-ins, for example, cost 300 requisition (same cost as a regular squad) and 150 Bio-Mass. A Warp Spider Brood, however, costs only 350 requisition (much less than 440 for a regular squad) and 200 Psychic Might.

Both of these globals need either a cost reduction (to be comparable to other call-ins) or need to provide automatic reinforcement to the Tyranid army ala SM Drop Pods.

[Phlaago]

Out of tier call in ability for kommando nobs.
(calling in kommandos in tier 2, they are balanced for tier 3 but tier 2 is just too soon)

suggest moving to tier 3 and lowering call-in cost.

[eldritchweather]

1)Warlock Destructor is underwhelming it can do next to no damage or good damage

2)Seer;s Runes of Reaping are useless for Tier 3

[Pellucid]

Buguba and Phlaago: I don't know if I'd consider those things to fall into the "no-brainer" category. They could easily be WAD.

Buguba, let's look at the re-enforce powers.

Drop Pod: 100/200. Can be called anywhere. Instantly re-enforces units in radius. Provides minimal damage and knockback at target area (does it still do this?). Provides no new units.

Call Da Boyz: 250/200. Can be called only in immediate vicinity of leader. Instantly re-enforces units in radius. Provides a buff to units in radius. Provides no new units.

Warrior Vanguard: 300/150. Can be called anywhere. Provides re-enforcement radius. Provides a new unit of Warriors.

These seem very balanced to me. The Warrior vanguard provides what amounts to a deep strike of warriors anywhere on the field and a re-enforcement radius, which is very valuable to swarmy races. It provides no other buffs or benefits like the others do, and always exactly performs for cost instead of occasionally being very profitable, but in exchange it has a 25% lower red cost than the other two.

That is to say, Drop Pod and Call Da Boyz are basically like trading red for req. The Brood trades less red, but instead of getting a req discount, you pay full costs but have the additional benefit of a lingering re-enforcement zone.

I mean, can you really call that a "no brainer" balance issue?

[hellic]

1)Warlock Destructor is underwhelming it can do next to no damage or good damage

Learn to use it. Destructor deals ranged piercing damage, so do NOT use it on squads in cover. When you use it correctly, it will take off half the health from any low health, high-member count T1 squads (e.g. Guardians, Sluggas, Termagants).

[Buguba]

rop Pod: 100/200. Can be called anywhere. Instantly re-enforces units in radius. Provides minimal damage and knockback at target area (does it still do this?). Provides no new units.

Call Da Boyz: 250/200. Can be called only in immediate vicinity of leader. Instantly re-enforces units in radius. Provides a buff to units in radius. Provides no new units.

Warrior Vanguard: 300/150. Can be called anywhere. Provides re-enforcement radius. Provides a new unit of Warriors.

These seem very balanced to me. The Warrior vanguard provides what amounts to a deep strike of warriors anywhere on the field and a re-enforcement radius, which is very valuable to swarmy races. It provides no other buffs or benefits like the others do, and always exactly performs for cost instead of occasionally being very profitable, but in exchange it has a 25% lower red cost than the other two.

That is to say, Drop Pod and Call Da Boyz are basically like trading red for req. The Brood trades less red, but instead of getting a req discount, you pay full costs but have the additional benefit of a lingering re-enforcement zone.

I mean, can you really call that a "no brainer" balance issue?

Yes. In the case of a drop pod, you only need to reinforce TWO marines to make it worth more than its req cost. For the case of "call the boyz," it's an absolutely amazing ability. Not only to you reinforce *every single unit you lose* (including Nobz) for 20 seconds, but you also grant your entire army a 30% speed boost and a 15% damage boost (stacks with Waaagh).

In both cases, its extremely easy to make the ability worth more than its cost. I'm partially in awe that you would compare the Tyranid call-in to the Ork "Call the Boyz" when "call the boyz" can reinforce several hundred requisition/power's worth of resources in twenty seconds while the Tyranid call-in is only worth the squad.

I'll add too that the Tyranid call-in only allows reinforcement for 10 seconds, which isn't even enough for a Warrior. This isn't actually that much of a problem, since both of the abilities explicitly block the reinforcement of Warriors (because everyone knows that Warriors >>>>> Nobz). Assuming you're a god of reflexes though, you can reinforce up to four gaunts in a squad with this time. In practice, however, it only amounts to maybe two or three (all of which you pay for).

I think you should play Tyranids a little and see how frequently you use those abilities. The Warrior one is only mildly useful for Warrior spam strategies (ala Warp Spider strategies).

[Pellucid]

I still think it's quite a stretch to call it a "no-brainer" balance issue. Could it use tweaking? Sure, I'd say it's probably a bit on the weak side. Is it a "no-brainer?" I don't think so. To me, "no-brainer" implies strict inferiority in a broad and obvious way. Given that you get a brand new unit with the Brood and not with the other two abilities, it can't be strictly inferior.

[The_nuketrooper]

Looks pretty no-brainer to me. Anyway, another one
Flamer damage to turrets. Now a deff dread with burny bitz drains half the HPs of a base turret on approach. With the addition of stances, things like deff dredds and to a lesser degree regular dreads will render base defences (and regular turrets) virtually non-existent. Solution - Add flame resistance to the turrets, so they will last more than half a second.

[Chaos Von Draco]

The Issue with Heavy Armor being more of a weakness then a strength: Have it reduce damage from most weapons by set amounts and have things like power weapons instead of doing bonus damage do full damage instead.

Ranged Weapons on Walker being very underwhelming: Adjust cost and stat of said weapons like the wraithlord's brightlance should be more in line with the brightlance platform.

The sad mess that is the Avatar of Khaine: Let see I was thinking of maybe lowering cost to say 800-900 req and 200 power and increase the speed of his attacks. What do you guys think?

[Pellucid]

If the BL on the Wraithlord was anywhere near as potent as the BL Plat it would be ridiculously imba.

[Chaos Von Draco]

What I meant to say is not quite the same as the Plat maybe about half damage and 1.5-2 times the normal reload time maybe even give it a ability instead kinda like the dread's autocannon.

[Pellucid]

Dread's AC kills an ability from the Dread and halves its melee damage. Wraithlord is fine, needs no balance changes IMO.

[The_nuketrooper]

Keep in mind walkers get a health buff in CR- Wlord ranged damage buff on top of health buff would be over the top. And no - poor elves don't need it.

Stikkbomas stun lolnades need a timer . On top of their ridiculous throwing range,Knob can turn the other cheek and infiltrate them, having them throw the nades at point-blank range for insta-stun .

[Fabled]

Balance issue: Currently you'd need to be stupid or playing vs the comp to pop a wraithlord in compertative play when falcons do everything better.
Solution: nerf the power cost of wraithlords they simply arent worth 85 power, that or improve walker pathing.

Balance issue: D-cannons are too good for their price.
Solution: Impose a limit on the number possible to construct or increase the power cost, why is the currently inferior prism nearly tripple the power?

Balance Issue: Guardian dps in large numbers is offensive and encourages spamming of this unit.
Solution: As mentioned above sort out their reinforcement costs, impose a debuff that prevents their dps in large numbers exceeding a certain lvl. If you nerf the basiC squad dps you'll just render them useless for those who didnt spam

[Codex]

and give dcannons a power reinforcement cost which is in line with 50%.

The Issue with Heavy Armor being more of a weakness then a strength: Have it reduce damage from most weapons by set amounts and have things like power weapons instead of doing bonus damage do full damage instead.

what do you mean by this? do you want them to have the same number of hitpoints here? =/

(with regards to terminators) you're right. they don't need 10 different buffs. they need their size changing, super heavy armor looked at and their health scaled down (so they don't spend 20 years healing), and they need a small buff to damage. their weapons have to be brought into line.

that's my stance on terminators. do you mean you want them to be more resistant to damage now? i.e. changing the modifiers to e.g.

1.0 explosive, 0.75 plasma, 0.1 piercing,
and halving their hp?

because they'd be just as "tough" then, but would heal twice as quickly.

also, changing size to medium/large would help greatly.

[DNA61289]

Balance issue: D-cannons are too good for their price.
Solution: Impose a limit on the number possible to construct or increase the power cost, why is the currently inferior prism nearly tripple the power?

D-cannons are getting a huge nerf in CR. They no longer have a near 100% hit rate, so yeah there fine.

and give dcannons a power reinforcement cost which is in line with 50%.

this i agree with, the same should be done to guardian to make it fair.

[JJMicromegas]

Out of tier call in ability for kommando nobs.
(calling in kommandos in tier 2, they are balanced for tier 3 but tier 2 is just too soon)

suggest moving to tier 3 and lowering call-in cost.

This is one of the defining features of the Kommando Hero, I don't agree with this one being a 'no-brainer' because by the time you get to T3 it doesn't really have the same effect. Also consider what you are giving up in terms of Waaagh for that early Kommando unit.

[Codex]

This is one of the defining features of the Kommando Hero, I don't agree with this one being a 'no-brainer' because by the time you get to T3 it doesn't really have the same effect. Also consider what you are giving up in terms of Waaagh for that early Kommando unit.

hear, hear. emphasis on waaaagh cost. waaaagh is really necessary for an effective ork army.

[FooF]

When I read "no-brainer" I think of balance issues that are almost unanimously agreed upon as needing to happen.

- The GU squad reinforcement is such an example. There is absolutely no reason they should reinforce at 40% when every other squad reinforces at 50%. Bring them in line.

- Ranger detection range is greater than any weapon that an infiltrated unit can bring to bear on them. Reduce detection range to "normal" levels.

- Terminators/Assault Terminators are given Teleport to overcome their "no-retreat" liability but the range/cooldown (in combination) is woefully inadequate. Increase the range of the teleport *or* decrease the cooldown. This is especially true for Assault Terminators. Alternatively, Assault Terminators could be given a "Charge" ability that gets them into melee faster (while still retaining teleport to get out or shift position to an ever-changing battlefield).

- Apoth's heal range is too large, allowing the Apoth to heal well behind the lines and increasing the perception that he's OP. Reduce Heal's radius to roughly what Stim's radius is.

- Sanguine Chainsword is extremely rare/useless. Bring down into T1 and move the Axe to T2 and decrease cost to 100/20. Or, buff it in T2 and allow it to heal nearby allied units on melee strikes (as well as the Apoth), much like the Litanies of Fury accessory the Captain has in The Last Stand. 20 HP to the Apoth but 5 HP to nearby allied units in a radius of 15 around the Apoth.

[hellic]

This is one of the defining features of the Kommando Hero, I don't agree with this one being a 'no-brainer' because by the time you get to T3 it doesn't really have the same effect. Also consider what you are giving up in terms of Waaagh for that early Kommando unit.

And WSE's defining feature is calling in Warp Spiders in T1, amirite?

I buy Kommandos all the time in T3 as a Mekboy (if the enemy doesn't have detectors). Kommandos are a good T3 unit, being able to use them in T2 is too good.

[Octopus Rex]

Balance issue: Kommando Nob rokkit launcher needs a damage reduction.

[FooF]

Issue: Kommando Nob leader has a hammer. With no ranged capability. On a squad that is purely ranged. Replace with kustom shoota.

[Vintage]

FooF he used to have a kustom shoota I believe. I think it was changed because kommandos were easily beaten in melee by other ranged squads, such as GUs with a Warlock.

[The_nuketrooper]

.... But his AI is messed up, so he runs to melee range without attacking, just asking to get his e entire squad tied.

[FooF]

I know he used to have the kustom shoota and the change never made sense to me. Why not buff Kommando melee damage? Don't give the squad leader a counter-intuitive weapon.

[Troubleshooter]

Or let them lose to melee... why do they need to be good at both?

[Vintage]

I personally liked being able to melee Kommando squads with GUs and what not. I would be in favor of the Knob receiving a KS instead of the hammer.

[Arbit]

I wonder if Relic had meant to give Kommandos a choppa upgrade at some point. The nob having a hammer would make much more sense that way.

Anyway, I'd rather have him use a shoota because of his AI issues and because the few times I've used him to melee something, he usually sync kills something immediately which gives the target plenty of time to escape before appreciable damage can be done.

[Codex]

make the KNob leader have a KS with reasonably high damage, but shorter range, and give it highish melee damage too. that way it's an all-round upgrade for the squad. improves slightly the survivability of the squad in melee but doesn't make them wtfpwn at range.

[Malachi]

Issue: The size of Terminators and Assault Terminators makes them fully vulnerable to AV weaponry.

Fix: Decrease their size. Adjust cost or HP if it makes them OP.

Issue: Terminator Cyclone Missle Barrage doer too much damage to all targets, especially buildings.

Fix: Make it do less ovdrall damage or make it only damage armored targets and not infantry. In any case, decrease damage to buildings.

[weyseer astarte]

Warlocks destructor needs a buff.I mean seriously needs a buff but not only in damage but in its targeting.

[Pellucid]

Issue: The size of Terminators and Assault Terminators makes them fully vulnerable to AV weaponry.

Fix: Decrease their size. Adjust cost or HP if it makes them OP.

If by "fully vulnerable" you mean "each individual terminator has twice the health of a fully upgraded tank and takes twice as much DPS from a plasma gun as it does from a missile launcher due to the slow fire rate of missiles," then your statement is accurate.

Absolutely not a no-brainer fix.

[Giladas]

@Pellucid

Do note though that Terminators are the only unit in the game that takes damage from pretty much everything, along with Avatar. AI weapons work on them just fine, and AV weapons work on them due to their size (Tankbusta rokkits are especially nasty), so I would think some looking at of the way they take damage in is necessary. Now they are a mobile Cyclone Missile Platform (although those Missiles are so effective they just might pull their weight just so).

[Pellucid]

I don't see that as an inherent problem; they're extremely durable despite taking OK to good damage from all weapon types due to their amazing HP. I think the problem with Termies right now is their DPS, and I agree they need alteration in that department.

[Giladas]

Just like tacs are extremely durable due to their high hp ? With few units capable of increasing the hit points of a squad, it is generally much useful to have huge resistances and low HP rather than the other way around. Combine this with no retreat to decrease damage taken + time it takes to get to the HQ and start regenerating and the end result can be seen. Terminators come to the scene, take exorbitant amounts of damage and then they either are cut down, or they need to jump out and first walk slowly towards the HQ and then wait around doing nothing while they regenerate. You can't afford to lose them, 150/50 is a huge hit.

They might have a huge HP pool, but then you compare it to the HPs of a fully buffed nobz squad (faster, with retreat and damage immunity + 60/10 or 15 reinforcement cost) and it isn't really that huge anymore. Especially with rokkits, missiles and beams hitting you the way they do due to your size.

Giladas

[Pyro Paul]

Force Commander Chain Sword and Shield. out right worthless: Suggest it give either a health boost or a damage default damage resistance to the FC. suggest also gives passive buff to friendlies rather than a toggle active buff.

alternative. instead of making it passive, possibly buff the active 'defend ability' to make it more worth while. for instance, granting supression immunity or possibly an additional melee damage reduction.


Terminators/Terminator Force commander, currently marked as ranged: Suggest flagging these units as 'Melee' unless if they purchase a Ranged specific upgrade (auto cannon). that way the units will move in and engage in melee with their power fists by default.



Force Commander Terminator armor, not worth while: Being a Teir 3 200/100 perminent upgrade which removes the ability to retreat, all other previous upgrades, abilities, and resets his stats, i strongly believe that it should get a worth while buff for all this effort. 2500 health is just not worth it when an easily obtainable artificer armor + Iron Halo FC is 10 fold more survivable and effective.
suggested fixes:
- damage for Flamer should be greatly increased (it is a late game twin linked Heavy Flamer... only deployable on an extreamly expensive rare unit... it should be potent in the least)
- possibly give 'Flesh over Steel' ability to him default... he does have a power fist...
- +500-1000 health
- possibly give an inspiring Aura that buffs nearby friendlies

[Pellucid]

Again, even if you can make an argument for changing their size, I strongly disagree that it's a "no-brainer." There are tons of ways to address the usefulness or lack thereof of termies other than changing their size. Not a no-brainer, doesn't belong on the list.

[Giladas]

Fair enough, I suggest it is a no-brainer to start with changing their size because that in and of itself makes balancing terminators easier. Once terminators have chosen whether they are to be countered by AI or AV weapons, you can start figuring out whether they need a HP buff or nerf etc. At present no matter what is changed in the game it effects terminators, whereas a predator doesn't care whether a full guardian squad does 47.5 or 48.5 DPS.

[Dux]

Both the Hive Tyrant AND Lictor Alpha mycetic spore call-ins do not automatically reinforce nearby units as advertised. They provide the *ability* for nearby units to reinforce, but it's clear that the abilities were intended to mimic the current state of the Space Marine Drop Pod (where all nearby squads are reinforced free of charge and without delay).

I agree. I think it would be fine if they only automatically reinforced Gaunt squads, though (no free reinforcement of larger Nids).

- Ranger detection range is greater than any weapon that an infiltrated unit can bring to bear on them. Reduce detection range to "normal" levels.

I'm not sure that this is such a no-brainer fix. Ranger detection was increased not so long ago in order to make up for the fact that Eldar detection is delegated only to Rangers. Being forced to spend 300/30 for detection was looked at as a substantial disadvantage, so to make up for it, they were given superior detection. I like the change, personally; it fits with the whole Eldar style of specialized troops.

Issue: The size of Terminators and Assault Terminators makes them fully vulnerable to AV weaponry.

Fix: Decrease their size. Adjust cost or HP if it makes them OP.

Absolutely.

Pellucid, Terminators currently take twice the damage from AV weapons that vehicles take, and they're the only infantry unit in the game with a "large" size even though units like Nobs and Warriors are visibly larger. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Terminators/Terminator Force commander, currently marked as ranged: Suggest flagging these units as 'Melee' unless if they purchase a Ranged specific upgrade (auto cannon). that way the units will move in and engage in melee with their power fists by default.

This is already the case: Terminators will attack in melee by default until you buy a weapon upgrade. Regardless, this point will thankfully be moot once stances are introduced in CR.

[The_nuketrooper]

I disagree about the rangers -40 detection range is not justified. Rangers not only detect and render any infiltrator useless, but provide vision, hard-counter HWTs and inflict casualties to infantry from afar. Apart from SM and their super-scouts (assuming you don't lose the first squad), every other race has to pay similar price to get an inferior detector.


Sure, getting them will slow the elf 3 gu falcon tech

Regular termies do not have the melee aura. Assault terminators, ASM, tacs -even scouts have it.


P.S.

Nobs should not be immune to knockback while frenzied - while the ability is active they can only be stunned or slowed and not all races have access to such abilities.

[Ruonim]

issue: tacts melee dps is same as ranged
fix: bring them inline with other ranged units

[Pellucid]

I feel like the melee balance of Tacs is pretty much perfect right now. Either way, I wouldn't consider Tac melee damage a "no-brainer" by any stretch.

[weyseer astarte]

Buff sporemine movement speed to allow them to reach their target faster.

[The_nuketrooper]

Plasma devestators are the only unit in the game that can commit suicide without explicitly being told to do so, making them considerably less useful than the other artillery in the game. Add a minimum range detection so the moron with the cannon will not fire when there is a brick wall 10 cm in front of him, or is on a staircase and decides to nuke his feet/face (depending on whether he is on the top or bottom).
Variant B - make the projectile pass through objects for the first few meters. It may look ridiculous but won't be more so than a D-cannon or zoan blasts, vaulting over the stairs at Ruins of Argus.

Buff sporemine movement speed

Spore mines are pretty potent as they are . Any buffs and it will result in the old "lol-I-just-sent-two-sporemines-which-you-have-no-time-to-kill-and-slaughtered-your-whole army-n00b". It's not a no-brainer. Which actually reminds me the mines can still block retreating units....

issue: tacts melee dps is same as ranged fix: bring them inline with other ranged units

Now..I am baffled by the yet another tac dps nerf. How come it is a no-brainer ? And why do they need to be even more pathetic against melee? (Right - because you need only 2 squads to counter 1 melee- that's so unfair)

[weyseer astarte]

Any buffs and it will result in the old "lol-I-just-sent-two-sporemines-which-you-have-no-time-to-kill-and-slaughtered-your-whole army-n00b

I was referring them as the garrison counter.Even with 2 sporemines they cant reach near the building and detonate in time to clear them.Put plasma devs and no sporemines can reach the building at all..but oh well...XD

[Ruonim]

Now..I am baffled by the yet another tac dps nerf. How come it is a no-brainer ? And why do they need to be even more pathetic against melee? (Right - because you need only 2 squads to counter 1 melee- that's so unfair)

Becouse they are luckster vs all other ranged infanty?

[Malachi]

Um, what?

Tacs counter other ranged infantry very well due to having heavy armor and formidable dps. It's melee they have problems with.

[The_nuketrooper]

Malachi - he was being sarcastic.
Ruonim - for 500 req and 18 pop cap they would better NOT be lackluster against 270 req shoota mob or 300 req GU. Both of which deliver DPS close or identical to that of the tacs.
If you really believe they are OP in any way I would be happy to politely rage against that in a thread, dedicated to that matter