prob so it can mesh with the new chaosand Tzeentchian CSM part gets push back *sigh*
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prob so it can mesh with the new chaosand Tzeentchian CSM part gets push back *sigh*
I though what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes-The Laughing Man -J.D.Salinger
I'm going to kill this dog. I just haven't decided how.
-Kevin Kline
Well well ... Slap Extra Armour and a Reaper AC on it and its a pretty decent buy for CSM... (cheaper than the base SM varianthttp://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...Stormeagle.pdf
Also, good one for once that CSM can use the Storm Eagle.)
Look like my Night Lords will get one of those for Apo...
Warhammer 40.000-Armies:
* Night Lords: 8th Company, "The Just" (Unalinged Chaos Space Marines)
* Cabal Of Eternal Silence (Kabalite Dark Eldar)
* The Seekers of Iybraesil (Craftworld Eldar)
"Basically, the Horus Heresy is a story about daddy issues." - Gav Thorpe
#253
zomg, it has a... vengeance launcher :F
<3
#254
So, will this introduce a new type of weapon in the IG/Navy arsenal? Guesses tend to stray towards either a 'mini-Vulcan' or a S6, Rending weapon...Originally Posted by Petay1985 from Warseer
Your call on this?
We look to the heavens so that one day our children may look back towards home.
Well, the Avenger made me think of an A-10 as soon as I saw it. The A-10 is armed with the GAU-8 Avenger. Only logical that the 40k version would have a more in-your-face name: the REVENGERATOR.
Look at the bright side, kid - you get to keep all the money.
#256
Splendid models now on pre-order for despatch from April, 27th:
Deimos pattern Executioner Predator with adjoining experimental rules now available; £46. Has both sets of weapons (PC & HCB).
PreH MkII & MkIV Apothecaries set; £20.
Needless to say, my money has found a new home...
#257
Bought those Apoth's, big plans for em.
I know the Forgeworld models for the Tau faction were updated back in Feb. 2012, but I looked the update over again recently, and in my opinion, FW didn't go far enough.
TT miniatures are somewhat unique among commercial goods in that if a miniature has better rules, such rules will stimulate demand for the miniature in question. It's clear that several Forgeworld Tau models (such as the Remote Sensor Tower, the various Drone-controlled Turrets, the Tetra scout vehicles, and the various alternate turret-mounted weapon systems for Hammerhead Gunships) were recently given better rules just for this purpose.
But there were several Forgeworld Tau-related models which were not given even moderately better rules, such as the various Forgeworld Kroot Knarloc units, the Heavy Gun Drones/Marker Drones (two of the worst-conceived units in my opinion, and it was not updated for the better), and the DX-4 Technical Drone (which was not mentioned at all in the update). I can't think of any reason as to why these units wouldn't be updated with better rules (since units with better rules usually sell better, and that obviously helps GW stay in business and make more money) unless they're going to be updated in the upcoming Tau codex instead.
Some of my quick suggestions towards improving the overlooked units are below:
- The DX-4 Technical Drone is mentioned on the Forgeworld webpage to be used as a sensor, or for medical purposes, or for breaching purposes (all in a Cities of Death game). To stimulate demand for this model in "standard" 40k games, all they had to do was something simple, such as making it accessible to Fire Warrior team members using Drone Controllers, and making the DX-4 Technical drones capable of acting like a Medic or a Vehicle Repairer (two abilities which to my knowledge the Tau faction does not currently have access to).
- The Heavy Gun Drones (and their cousins the Marker Drones) could have been improved either by giving them better weaponry options, or making them available to Fire Warrior teams with a Drone Controller. In the latter case a Heavy Gun Drone toting a Twin-Linked Burst Cannon (and part of a Fire Warrior team) could act as an ersatz "Heavy Bolter" due to its higher rate of fire than a basic Pulse Rifle (while fitting in with the fluff that claims that Fire Warriors don't carry heavy weapons themselves).
- The Kroot Knarloc units from Forgeworld are not very effective as a whole, but one way the Goaded Greater Knarloc could have been upgraded would have been to give more incentive for players to upgrade one of the Kroot Goads to a Kroot Shaper, such as boosting the Greater Knarloc's stats or giving it a USR like Feel No Pain if a Shaper is attached to the Goaded Knarloc and is still alive.
Thanks to the internet, ineffective or less-effective units in TT miniatures-based games quickly become shelf warmers, so the question of why FW didn't improve the aforementioned models further boggles my mind. Miniatures that don't sell don't make you any money!
The First Principle of Game Balance:
No option should be so good it supercedes all other alternatives, and no option should perform so poorly it is routinely overlooked.
#259
Playing outrageous devil's advocate/hypothesis maker here:
- FW is a subidiary of FW that is primarily aimed at producing out-of-regular-range minis/models, not at penning balanced rules. We've all seen this with totally OP units or ludicrous statlines. Don't expect the updates to be more sensible game- or sales-wise;
-FW sales aren't GW's main source of income, however highly priced their range of models. They're not here, therefore, to maintain GW's treasury afloat (although on the opposite i'm sure they'd get scuttled would they prove to be a money-sink
-as you mentioned, there might be a leash put on some units were there a rewriting of the main Tau rules in a future codex; why bother, then, when your parent company will overwrite what updates you may make in the near future?;
-continuing on this line, February's update only takes into account a part of the FW Tau range; isn't there be a possibility the other part (which you lament about) is going to see an update in the coming month in (contrarily to what i said just above) a flash of commercial ingenuity from the FW team so that models sell better in batches instead of in a too large range which makes choices difficult and therefore purchases fewer in a given time window?
-Tau? Pfah! they're not SPESS MARHEENS!!! ^^
Also, why don't you address that to the FW team itself? I, as many other players, have before emailed FW to ask technical as well as commercially-orientated questions which have always elicited replies. The FW studio isn't deaf to the gaming community and is known to happen to update their rules with the insight thusly given. (see the last DKoK update that got updated a week or two after when players started questioning decisions).
Last edited by Lleman; 21st Apr 12 at 5:35 AM.
I would think that someone on the FW team should know at least something about Public Relations in the Internet age (and how rules written for miniatures affect whether players will buy or not buy more of them). Unreasonably OP units piss off the people who play them, while unreasonably underpowered units piss off the people who bought them, who will then regret their purchase(s) and most likely badmouth FW to everyone on their friends list. So every little bit helps.Posted by Lleman
- FW is a subidiary of FW that is primarily aimed at producing out-of-regular-range minis/models, not at penning balanced rules. We've all seen this with totally OP units or ludicrous statlines. Don't expect the updates to be more sensible game- or sales-wise;
-FW sales aren't GW's main source of income, however highly priced their range of models. They're not here, therefore, to maintain GW's treasury afloat (although on the opposite I'm sure they'd get scuttled would they prove to be a money-sink ). Making 'bad' updates decisions may not be relevant to the FW team in that regard.
And I would like FW to be more successful. In fact I believe that if there was a Saturday Morning Cartoon or the like that featured Tau Vs. Orks (maybe chronicling the "4th sphere expansion"?) in the style of Shadow Raiders or Beast Machines, and FW was in charge of making the designs and moulds for a set of action figures in the form of Tau battlesuits, then I'm sure that the action figures would sell well. FW's concept artists are unquestionably very creative and talented people, and designs like Commander Shas'O R'Alai's or Commander Shas'O R'Myr's battlesuits are certainly aesthetically pleasing enough to likely be on the birthday/Christmas wish lists of kids/young adults everywhere if they were made larger, kidsafe (i.e., no sharp edges or easily-breakable parts), and required no assembly or painting. But wish as I might, there is no Tau vs. Orks CGI TV show and FW's battlesuits (and by extension, their other models) are not action figures--they don't sell on aesthetics and commercial hype alone. The rules on a model will play more of a part in a decision to buy than "he looked so cool last week on TV blasting that Ork to space dust!" or the like.
Funny you should mention that. Anyone who has taken a look at the Hammerhead tank's Ion Cannon stats in the current Tau codex recently, and then taken a gander at the new rules for the FW Plasma Cannon turret for a Hammerhead will realize that aside from range, the latter completely supercedes the former in effectiveness. Either GW will change the new rules, or they'll change the Ion Cannon's old stats to be competitive with the newly standard armaments once more (since I doubt they want to stop production of that particular bit). In any case I'm sure that you'll be right and some more changes will be coming to the Tau units in the new codex; it's just that I can see a few opportunities they're not yet taking.Posted by Lleman
-as you mentioned, there might be a leash put on some units were there a rewriting of the main Tau rules in a future codex; why bother, then, when your parent company will overwrite what updates you may make in the near future?
In the grim darkness of the far future, there SHOULD be more than just Space Marine opposition. FW helps in that a Gargantuan Squiggoth looks far more intimidating and is still going to be as effective (if not more so) than "Land Raider Variant #37."Posted by Lleman
-Tau? Pfah! they're not SPESS MARHEENS!!! ^^
I suppose I'll give that a try. It's just that I e-mailed them once about making their site more user-friendly in one critical aspect and never got a reply. The aspect I didn't find user-friendly is how their website currently lacks a section for each product's page that tells a prospective buyer where s/he may find the rules for the model s/he's on the page for (so s/he knows just which rulebook to buy or which rule supplement to download to properly use the model in question). They never got back to me on that, and to date such a user-friendly entry has not appeared on any of the FW model pages I've seen.Posted by Lleman
Also, why don't you address that to the FW team itself? I, as many other players, have before emailed FW to ask technical as well as commercially-oriented questions which have always elicited replies. The FW studio isn't deaf to the gaming community and is known to happen to update their rules with the insight thusly given. (see the last DKoK update that got updated a week or two after when players started questioning decisions).
FW is more about Guard than about Marines. Sure, the Badab War books brought with them a huge amount of SM content, but there's still more Guard/Navy content than SM content. And the Land Raider variant #37 will almost certainly sell more than massive and very expensive kits like the Manta. Sure, the latter looks impressive as hell, but very few people can afford it, meaning it doesn't sell much.
Tau suck anyway.
Last edited by Aesaar; 21st Apr 12 at 8:26 PM.
Sure, because IG use the most tanks and swapping out turrets for them is an easy way to make "whole new products" without having to risk much capital. And you don't need to sell unaffordable Mantas to make your money back and more; if the recently-released Tau XV9 Hazard Armour Battlesuits were made "standard 40k legal" I'm sure they'd sell pretty well since they are fast, tough, powerfully armed and a great asset to any Tau force that has the points to spare. Even something less drastic like the IG Hydra Flak tank would likely be a hot seller since it is one of the few units that can negate cover saves incurred by fast-moving vehicles (of which there are quite a few).Posted by Aesaar
FW is more about Guard than about Marines. Sure, the Badab War books brought with them a huge amount of SM content, but there's still more Guard/Navy content than SM content. And the Land Raider variant #37 will almost certainly sell more than massive and very expensive kits like the Manta. Sure, the latter looks impressive as hell, but very few people can afford it, meaning it doesn't sell much.
But they don't have to. GW/FW can change all that with a few strokes of their keyboards. The IG were once seen as lacking, for instance. Then their most recent codex hit, and now they're selling well. I'm sure such a thing could happen with the Tau if the right measures were taken.Posted by Aesaar
Tau suck anyway.
I wasn't talking about their rules. I'm generally just not fond of the Tau as a faction, simply because I find the reasons for the Imperium not wiping them off the map don't make sense. That's just my opinion, and since this isn't the subject of the thread, I'll leave it at that.
Do keep in mind that the Tau haven't received much from FW since IA3. They've also got a new codex coming up relatively soon, so it's entirely possible we'll see some current FW kits made into plastic and given new rules, like they did with the Piranha last codex. I'd bet on the Barracuda becoming a plastic kit, for instance. They suck rules-wise now because they have one of the oldest codices.
Last edited by Aesaar; 22nd Apr 12 at 2:17 AM.
#264
Bagsy me your bits box.
Guardian, the Hydra is standard 40k legal. It's on page 51 of the Guard codex. I don't see too many of them in my FLGS. I want 20, though
#266
If you're on the FW website, then you're already at least a slightly seasoned player and you know what model X does if only vaguely and what publication it pertains to. I don't even see the point of such a final rant anyway, so, in the words of Aesaar, i'll leave it at that.
Back on topic, has anyone from us dolts been at thelatest FW open day? And if so, has there been talk of a MkIc Razorback? (even though one could just use the MkIc and add the 'modern' bits on, i know, i know...)
Pardon me, I don't have the newest one on hand. But your desire for some definitely speaks to its TT effectiveness (not to mention how many fast vehicles you likely face), and the money FW will likely make off you when finally get to ordering a squadron (or more). Personally, I'm confused as to why GW didn't just leave the Leman Russ Exterminator, Vanquisher, and especially the Executioner turrets as "available from FW only", since they are the most effective on the TT, would be highly desired by IG players, and thus would sell well (for a higher price than just including the turrets in the standard Leman Russ box) amongst players unwilling to buy secondhand or convert/construct those turrets themselves. Was it because doing such a thing would have caused them to lose too much goodwill from the IG player community?Posted by Ramrod
Guardian, the Hydra is standard 40k legal. It's on page 51 of the Guard codex. I don't see too many of them in my FLGS. I want 20, though.
You mean a Razorback built off the chassis of the FW MkIc Deimos Pattern Rhino? I don't see how that would be much more effective than a standard Razorback, since the only difference the base Rhino chassis has from a standard one is that it has two independent Bolters from mini-turret mounts rather than a Storm Bolter. Would you happen to be building a Great Crusade-based SM chapter, perhaps?Posted by Lleman
Has there been talk of a MkIc Razorback?
#268
Who's talking about effectiveness? I'm an oldschool geezer, with a deep love for the original models hence my attraction for the recent FW developments. We're obviously on two different lines of thoughts regarding FW there: you want effectiveness (WAAC much?You mean a Razorback built off the chassis of the FW MkIc Deimos Pattern Rhino? I don't see how that would be much more effective than a standard Razorback, since the only difference the base Rhino chassis has from a standard one is that it has two independent Bolters from mini-turret mounts rather than a Storm Bolter.
As a side note: on the MkIc Rhino, the cuppola-mounted bolters count as a SB, so was i informed by the FW team.
I see. It's just that for me, winning (or at least doing better) in TT games is a more long-lasting intangible good than cosmetic upgrades (not to mention in my experience a more attractive possibility). People get used to more attractive models quickly if they play against them, but as long as the associated rules don't change for the worse, a miniature with good rules will remain an asset in your TT army list for longer. Is there a competition at your FLGS for best-looking models, though?Posted by Lleman
Who's talking about effectiveness? I'm an oldschool geezer, with a deep love for the original models hence my attraction for the recent FW developments. We're obviously on two different lines of thoughts regarding FW there: you want effectiveness (WAAC much? ), I want attractiveness.
For example, an IG player frustrated his forces' inability to deal with fast-moving vehicles will probably want to shell out for a squadron of FW Hydra Flak Tanks (which are the IG's counter to those vehicles and most airborne units) rather than pay for FW IG vehicle accessories that either are only cosmetic additions or else are already covered under the standard rules. It all depends on your priorities. I think that the FW SM vehicle accessories (such as the Chapter-specific doors and reinforced/spaced armour) are certainly well-made, and would be in most cases hard to convert/construct yourself (sure, you could paint a chapter emblem on your Rhino/Land Raider doors, but actually sculpting an emblem to be fully-3D like FW did would be much harder), but I'd rather buy a Chaplain Dreadnought or a Contemptor Dreadnought first before those vehicle accessories myself. At the same time, I'd also rather buy the various FW Chaos Space Marine Dreadnoughts instead of the ones available from GW, because the former look a great deal better than the latter.
That's odd, given that their firing arcs should include the ability to fire at separate targets (such an ability would be nowhere near overpowered either), rather than just at one target with a single hit roll. Still, GW lets "Papa Smurf" Marneus Calgar and his bolter-equipped power fists fire as a single storm bolter rather than a twin-linked one or letting him split his fire between two targets, so I can't claim that such a thing hasn't been done before.Posted by Lleman
As a side note: on the MkIc Rhino, the cupola-mounted bolters count as a SB, so was i informed by the FW team.
Rules change all the time. If taken care of, a good looking model stays good looking forever. I'll buy for appearance before I buy for pure game performance.
Of course, I haven't played a game in nearly a year...
Yeah, pretty much what Llemand and Aesaar said.
My FLGS has one Dark Eldar player and a couple of fair-weather Necron players (they're the kinds of guys that play every new codex when it comes out, neither of them ever sticks with anything, so this Necron phase won't last). Everyone else is IG, some flavour of SM, or Orks. Only one Ork player uses Deffkoptas, and only one SM player uses a pair of MM Land Speeders. The store has no Eldar nor Tau players (other than me, my second army that I never use is Tau). That said, there are plenty of bikers in the armies played at my local store.
I want the 20 Hydras more because a battery of them would look amazing than because I have a lot of flyers or fast vehicles to kill. TT performance and competitiveness in the metagame is a comparatively minor concern. For me, the primary source of fun is the assembly and painting of the miniature.
EDIT: The point of not allowing sponson or cupola weapons to fire at different targets is purely rules simplicity, I believe. As it stands, it give superheavy vehicles a cool, romanticised appeal. Instead of just reading about them in books rolling in with all guns blazing (or seeing it in the art/picturing it in your head/etc) with these huge tanks, you can actually do it.
It's why I try to squeeze my Baneblade into every game with my best friend, even if he has a really good track record of killing it. I love it for the awesome moments of tabletop mini-drama that happen when the thing rolls over the hill spitting fire at a dozen different targets.
Last edited by Ramrod; 23rd Apr 12 at 5:11 AM. Reason: addendum
...What? I don't understand what you're are saying here...Aren't SBs Assault 2? So two rolls to hit? And those "Bolters" on the Rhino count (and have counted since 3rd ed at least) as SBs.That's odd, given that their firing arcs should include the ability to fire at separate targets (such an ability would be nowhere near overpowered either), rather than just at one target with a single hit roll. Still, GW lets "Papa Smurf" Marneus Calgar and his bolter-equipped power fists fire as a single storm bolter rather than a twin-linked one or letting him split his fire between two targets, so I can't claim that such a thing hasn't been done before.
Game disconnected: you have been banned from this server. Stated reason: You got kicked for having a MICHAEL KORS WATCHES
OpelFalcon
#273
Well, more goodies in the shape of the much anticipated IA Model Masterclass Vol.II
Techniques shown in that book are really great and should give some armies an awesome display value. (i'm looking at you, enamel-like-painted Reaver!)
I see, I'm more used to seeing more "modern" Rhinos with a single cupola-mounted Stormbolter/Combibolter instead....What? I don't understand what you're are saying here...Aren't SBs Assault 2? So two rolls to hit? And those "Bolters" on the Rhino count (and have counted since 3rd ed at least) as SBs.
#275
Received the Apothecaries set today. Boy are they gorgeous! The FW pics don't do them justice to be honest. Actually, i find they could just as well be army centrepieces given the hero-posing and profusion on the details of their trade.
Now, to determine a worthy pre-Heresy scheme for these as Space Wolves... going to use them both as wolf priests i think.
#276
Lleman, I got mine on monday, but they were miscast to hell. You are right that they are beautiful though, looking forward to chaosing them up.
Also received my masterclass 2 book, brilliant read.
#277
Well, to me miscasts mean 'ask for replacements, get bits for free'
#278
Incoming! More stuff.
MK IV SPACE MARINE ASSAULT SQUAD
SPACE MARINE TERMINATOR WEAPON SET
TIGRUS PATTERN BOLTER SET
Look like "build-a-combi-gun"-set in there ... I really wish I hadn't used Chaos Termis to build my TS Termi-squads...SPACE MARINE TERMINATOR WEAPON SET
#280
That Combi set is quite interesting. I'm not feeling 'at home' with the power weapons set however, they look more WFB-chaos-dwarvish than Astartes, but they could fit in well for specific chapters or chaos legions (WB and IW come to ming right now).
The AssMkIV however is on one hand pretty delicious while on the other one being (in my view) absolutely backwards due to the terribad jump pack (yes, i know, supposed to be the highest tech of the golden days since the MkIV was the pinnacle of power armour engineering, i still don't buy the monothruster thing). I'll nonetheless happily chuck money to get the MkIV bodies and add in MkV thrusters...
#281
Monothruster with side stabilisers, I phoned and asked
Not fond of the thunder hammer, but I'd love a set of 5 of those Storm Shields.
#283
New command squad standard bearer/ancient and captain. Given the crests, we can say that they follow a standardised look, most likely that of the Ultramarines, even though sanctioned pre-Heresy art has these as part of the general Legion attire.
Still, lots of conversions possibilities (which make me green with envy given how i had to work on little bits to make my own EC MkIV officer and ancient >.< ) and certainly a few mandatory reworking on parts like that dreadful-looking banner pole (thin straight resin bit? wtf?).
Where is the "I do NOT want to accept cookies" button?
You never truly know someone...
Until you fight them.
#285
So the Imperium has an A-10 now.
Wish I could see the rules for it.
#287
While not new per se, FW have released updates to comply with 6th ed HERE.
Interesting piece from the Decimator 6th Sheet:
IIRC there isn't any independent character in C:CSM which is also a daemon... or was the Decimator also available for C:CDs?The Decimator may be further dedicated to one of the Chaos Powers so long as an Independent Character in the army also has either the same Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of the same power:
--Khorne.............................................................................+15 points
--Nurgle..............................................................................+25 points
--Slaanesh...........................................................................+15 points
--Tzeentch...........................................................................+25 points
Warhammer 40K - 2012
Blood Angels - 2nd Company: W3 T1 L3
Dark Eldar - Kabal of the Blood-Dipped Spear: W3 T0 L1
Grey Knights - 3rd Brotherhood: W0 T1 L1
#289
Reading-fu fail?Admittedly it is not placed in an obvious first-look position.
Now, this might also pave the way for special independent characters in the upcoming C:CSM.
After again carefully reading through the PDF - ok, saw it now. Placing it right within the special rules text without so much as a border or padding is nonsense though ;-)
#291
OH SWEET EMPEROR !!!!
I havent even seen what they are releasing past the old heresy era stuff they've already done and im like this...
Edit: Sweet jesus. What if they do Primarchs :o
Last edited by Inquisitor Lok; 28th Jul 12 at 10:24 PM.
Oooo a book? So like an IA, but for HERESAAAAAH?
Want want want want want want *screams like a little girl* waaaaaaant
Knife King of Doltland
I'm not surprised. Anything within three feet of you seems to end up full of knife shaped holes.
#294
I cannot put what I feel about this into words.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
Not Marine on Marine action again...
Boooo! Forgeworld, Boooo!
#296
can't wait until games day now.
A Lannister always pays his debt
#297
@0rph3u5: i doubt we'll see a Badab War rehash. Given the seminal and momentous events those (three?) books will cover, we'll certainly be in for interesting and exotic changes in the usual SM/CSM rules and playstyle.
Now, if you're not into the GC/HH AND don't like Astartes this might indeed be disappointing. Nil desperandum, still, there were rumours about the GC xenos wars, so we may be in for good SM (yes, again :P) vs Xeno moments.
I don't share you optimism regarding new C:SM-builds (I highly doubt that they'll make rules to be used with most of the MEQ-dexes)... but only time can tell...
But don't get me wrong that I wouldn't like the HH era or novels ... I'm just not the "glorious defenders of Mankind"-kind of guy (If humanity is even worth defending and it might not be, it defense should take a toll on body and mind and not win you laurels --- just saying...*)
* all WH40k-wise of course
Last edited by 0rph3u5; 29th Jul 12 at 2:34 PM.
#299
Stormbirds. Older marks of Dreadnoughts. Cataphract Terminator armour. Pre heresy Thousand Sons conversion kits. Jetbikes. Adeptus Custodes. Imperial Army units.
All of those are excellent reasons why they should do these. I think that Alan Bligh is the single best man for the job, he did such good work on the Badab War books.
#300
Hum... The Bran Redmaw model has actually been rejected. I hope we'll see a final or even advanced WIP next GDUK... Granted he had matchstick-thin legs, but the pose had something very 'come get some' SW-ish which i hope they'll keep.
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