Loud Harleys and the like

[Retroboy]

Been following an article in our national newspaper where municipalities are looking at imposing noise law limitations on loud bikes. Harley Davidson's are the usual culprit. They're loud but not incredibly so when you first buy them, but modifications to the muffler baffles or after-market parts can ratchet their volume of sound immensely.

how I feel about them

Living in a semi-rural area where I'm occasionally exposed to modified Harleys, I consider them extremely intrusive and can't stand the things. I have a very low opinion of anyone who would turn their motorcycle into such an incredibly selfish plea for attention from everyone around them. In our area, the sound actually carries for miles at night. (I feel the same way about seadoos, but at least they're not deliberately modified to be louder and I can always find a different lake)

So some questions:
- Should you have the right to drive an extremely loud motorcycle (or other vehicle), or should their volume be regulated?
- What are the noise laws like in your geography? Do they prevent such bikes? Do police look the other way about them?
- What is your thought on the argument some Harley drivers give that the loud noise they create is a safety feature to assure the other-vehicle drivers around you are aware of your presence?
- Do you have any direct experience with very loud Harleys or the people that drive them?

(I'll link the article a bit later as this thread is about the theme and not the article itself)

[Ra owa]

We don't get many Harleys where i live, but there is an abundance of crap cars that the chavs (don't know if you use this word) have decided are in need of a terrible modifcation to the muffler to make them very loud.
It wouldn't be as much of an annoyance if these cars actually sounded good. A loud car that is as equally powerful is fine, and quite impresive. But when its a 'pimped out' Vauxhall Corsa that is obviously not powerful at all, and makes a stupid sound when moving at 5mph, it gets very annoying.
They must do it for attention, but i can't fathom how they can think it makes them look good.

I'm not too sure about the laws regarding vehicle noise are around here. Hopefully someone else can chip in with this.

[Harmanoff]

Volume should be regulated far more often in general. Sound pollution is rampant these days. The details would have to be hammered out depending on what and where you are regulating of course but hearing damage need to be the first tier. Stand next to one of those bikes and you can definately damage your ears.

[WingedKagouti]

Denmark has regulations for noise levels from any type of motorized vehicle (I believe most of EU does as well, haven't checked though). It's regulated by the first registration date for the individual vehicle, with older vehicles being allowed louder noises.

The police usually only go for loudness alone if it's very loud/obnoxious (repeated complaints from people in the area about a specific vehicle), a more common example of it being used is in conjunction with other behaviour to ensure that something sticks. They do show up at most larger bike/car meets to check things out, but that is more about stopping drunken driving, writing speeding tickets and checking up on tax evaders. VAT on cars & mcs is 25% and on top of that there's an additional 180% Registration fee (currently the highest in the world), which makes some people try various tricks.

As far as the "Loud Pipes Save Lives" motto, it's undoubtedly true that some lives of mc riders have been saved by loud exhaust pipes. Cars are extremely soundproofed these days (and those that aren't tend to make a lot of noise themselves) and many drivers seem to be genuinely surprised when they encounter something using only two wheels. Some won't react until it's far too late if they don't see a car and can't hear anything.

The Danish police have been analyzing mc related accidents with deaths/severe injuries. In half the cases (which did include solo accidents), the mc rider was at fault (frequently with too high speed compared to conditions), the other half had a car at fault (left turns without orientation were a frequent mistake). One of the conclusions was that in very few cases could louder pipes have done anything, the main improvement would come from better orientation and more cautious driving by both mcs and cars.

As a mc owner myself (not a chopper and with stock pipes, so no louder than an unmodified modern car), I've met plenty of people who like their bikes loud. For most of them, they simply just like the sound and like it loud. Some are of the exhibitionist variety, some think it makes them look/sound tough and some just want to stick it to the man. Those that use a loud exhaust do know the risk and I've spoken with more than one who's been fined. They generally just pay and then continue with the loud pipes. Some will keep the original pipes and do a temporary switch if they're called in for an inspection.

[LoCo]

It's noise pollution plain and simple.

I didn't know people actually tried to argue that it is for safety, that's... quite ridiculous.

It's inconsiderate, damn annoying and can actually affect the moods of people in the area leading to shorter tempers which leads to domestic, and other, violence.

The cops would come knocking if it were music that was played that loudly. I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same for cars and bikes.

As for the idea that it is acceptable on 'powerful' cars, I find that ridiculous too. Quiet cars are much more impressive.

Ban them. Set a noise tolerance level and enforce it strictly. Be it music or cars or bikes, I don't care what the hell you do as long as it isn't bothering me.

Here in NZ a lot of people complain about it, but nothing gets done about it.

Noise pollution is very bad for society. Our dear friend Wiki has a few things to say about it.

Noise pollution can cause annoyance and aggression, hypertension, high stress levels, tinnitus, hearing loss, sleep disturbances, and other harmful effects. Furthermore, stress and hypertension are the leading causes to health problems, whereas tinnitus can lead to forgetfulness, severe depression and at times panic attacks.

It also adversely affects pets (And other animals, birds, frogs, other wildlife) you and your neighbors might have so even if you don't mind it yourself you are still doing considerable harm.

It also does a large amount of damage to your children. So if all else fails, perhaps I can appeal to you to "think of the children".

If people think second hand smoke is bad for them, then they should all be outraged by these bikes and cars that are just too noisy. At least with smoke you can avoid it.

[mololu]

While not technically part of the EU, switzerland has simmilar noise regulation laws as the rest of the EU. I'm not entirely sure of the specifics as I don't drive but people I know have said that the police tend to enforce these rules if "they don't have anything better to do" and you draw attention to yourself somehow.

I'm not entirely sure what to think on the topic. Being able to understand why someone might want a louder vehicle but also being able to understand that it can really get on your nerves makes it a hard thing to comment on.

Though to be perfectly honest I've only heard a handful of louder/more powerful engines/exhausts here in switzerland so I can't really say if it bothers me or not (though I do find excessive screeching of metal on metal from our local trams incredibly annoying at 7 AM in the morning when they haven't ground the tracks for a while).

[Dimension]

Over here (germany) its like this.

A given manufacturer builds a car or motorbike. This vehicle has certain specs and qualities considering the noise it produces and the pollutants it releases.

Any modification that alters one of the two above properties (so pretty much anything except replacing the part with an identical one) must be registered with the TÜV, which is an agency surveying the road-readiness and safety of vehicles on a once every two years basis. TÜV can disallow modifications that reduce safety, don't adhere to various standards (such as noise), or mods that revoke the cars road-legalness (removing the horn etc) or will lead to the car breaking down in the very foreseeable future (removing the rev limiter and fitting the turbo-of-death).

Any vehicle that is found to have modifications that are not mentioned in the car papers or other official vehicle documentation will be either seized by police, or not be allowed to drive on public roads until its been to the TÜV and has been returned to a road legal state and has its documentation updated. If you don't modify your car to the TÜV's liking, they ask the registration bureau to revoke the registration of the car.

If the guy keeps on driving police will seize the car.

[SquidDNA]

Yeah I think the safety argument is sort of stupid too. I can't think of a reason that you need a special way to alert drivers to your presence unless you're driving unsafely.

[Dimension]

No, thats going too far down one direction. Not being able to hear a vehicle coming is so unsafe that there is legislation that define a minimum noise a car makes. This is not an issue with internal combustion engines, but the german government proposed this in light of the emergence of hybrids capable of driving without having the combustion engine running at all.

[mololu]

I actually have to agree. Several times (generally late, when I'm tired coming back from work) the thing that stops me walking across the road and getting myself flattened is the rumbling of a far off car engine.

If they were noiseless I'd probably have been hit at least once. It's surprising how much you rely on hearing...

[SquidDNA]

You weren't taught to look both ways before crossing a street? :/

In the US drivers are taught to frequently check mirrors and never make a lane changes without checking their blind spot(s) directly first. Honestly, if you're going down a highway at the speed limit there's typically so much noise from the engine and air that you can't hear adjacent cars unless they are within a couple of car lengths of you.

[Mokino]

Yeah I think the safety argument is sort of stupid too. I can't think of a reason that you need a special way to alert drivers to your presence unless you're driving unsafely.

The biggest problem with the whole safety argument is that is supposedly makes drivers notice bikes when they approach from behind, but you still won't hear them until they're right next to you or in front (depending on the bike.)

Loud pipes save lives is pretty much a myth. It's dangerous driving by both bikers and other vehicle drivers that costs the lives of motorcyclists.

Strangely here we have a lot of bikers but no noise law and I only really hear loud bikes when it's a travelling club passing through or here for a convention. Car stereos and loud pipes on cars seem to be more common.

[l337raceryo]

If you're not smart enough to look before you cross the street, then you're not smart enough to live.

[mololu]

The issue isn't not being taught to look both ways or the fact that I don't do it. I do it in 99% of all cases. And in 1% of the cases I'm preoccupied by something and happen to forget or I thought I looked, saw nothing, and then someone comes round a corner.

I'm not saying loud engines save lives. I'm saying extremely quiet engines can lead to problems too which is a little OT I guess.

Seriously though, no one is perfect. We all make mistakes. So, now I deserve to die because it happens from time to time that my human nature supersedes the machine that's been programmed into me for years?

[Starblade]

I'm pretty sure that typically the human that wasn't paying attention got his ass killed, but whatever.

e: Well okay I wasn't thinking of deaf people.

[Mokino]

Starblade, it's funny you mention that. They're talking about adding noisemakers to hybrid vehicles (that would operate when the car is moving under 30-40 km/h) because they're afraid a deaf or hard of hearing person may be struck due to how quiet the engines of said vehicles are.

EDIT: I should say hard of hearing, not completely deaf. Still, you'd think such people would be more cautious but accidents happen.

[ShyGuy]

They're trying to alert *deaf* people to the presence of a vehicle, by making it louder? I mean, even with all the hearing-impaired instrumentation that you could be conceivably be wearing, this seems like a really poor idea. What's wrong with just teaching people to look out, like Squid mentioned?

[Dasakamov]

A lot of posters here seem to be of the mind that "looking both ways" is 100% infallible and no one would be struck by a vehicle EVAR if they just followed that rule.

Yes, it's smart. Yes, it vastly improves your chances of avoiding serious injury or death. But these folks are forgetting to calculate in human nature or pure dumb chance.

Sometimes people are easily distracted. This can go for both drivers and pedestrians. Living in a major city, and being someone who walks fairly often I've seen plenty of pedestrians waiting at crosswalks step out into the street and almost get creamed by someone making a left-hand turn -- both parties have the green light, so both parties (understandably) feel that it's safe to proceed. "Look both ways" is not foolproof in this situation, since the vehicle often comes up from behind the pedestrians.

Similar situations occur when a driver is trying to make a right-hand turn at a red light; often, they'll be so concerned with watching for intersecting vehicle traffic that they'll be oblivious to pedestrians crossing in front of them; I had a situation my self a week or so ago when a pickup truck nearly ran me down in this scenario (and my amusing reaction was to slam my hand up against its grill -- like that would stop it. :P)

Anyway, totally off topic.


My uncle ran a Buell / Harley bike shop for a while; most of the riders who came in seemed to be more inclined to cruise cross-country along highways in their bikes rather than run them through dense residential areas or out-of-the-way rural areas, so I've never seen the noise to be a huge problem. It can be annoying if your trying to have a conversation with someone when there are fifteen of them cruising through town in a huge pack, but that happenes rarely, and they're usually out of ear shot in two minutes tops.

It does help that the county/city has a noise ordinance forbidding loud sounds after a certain time in the evening.

[LoCo]

Dasakamov: In your examples you are talking about city traffic. How exactly is yet another noise going to help at all? In fact, part of the reason people sometimes will just walk is because they automatically tune out these sounds after a while. They still hear them, but the mind ignores them. That there is yet another feature of noise pollution.

It's as mololu says, though completely turned around obviously, "It's surprising how much you rely on hearing..."

Also... how do those bikers get to the country roads? Do they push their bikes? Do they load them up on trailers? No? Sure, you might think that it's only for a short time. But then a minute after that biker is gone, another one comes by, or comes back or just leaves. How about them country roads? The sound travels further, but hey, it's just a bunch of farmers right? Who cares about them? The cows and every other animal out there? Bah! Let them suffer!

And then lets consider those country roads and the attitudes people have about driving on them. People are more prone to be lax with their concentration on driving when out on country roads. That causes a lot of accidents. People tend to drive faster. More accidents.

Then lets look at that safety question again. So it is to alert other drivers that a biker is around? What, exactly, is alerting the biker that there are other road users around? That sound drowns out other sound, so essentially it is like making sure everyone can see... and then putting a blind man on a bike. How many bike accidents wouldn't have happened if the bike was louder? Pffft. How many bike accidents wouldn't have happened if the biker could hear.

--

With all the noise pollution that saturates our lives, tinnitus alone should be enough to get things to quiet down. But much like with smells, the body can block sounds from being consciously heard when the sound is constant. Though the sound itself is still there, and the adverse effects (Often a common cause for headaches too) will keep happening. It will be background noise. But noise still.

Crossing the road is not going to be any safer with a loud rumbling if people are used to the loud rumbling.

I've lived in cities as well as more rural areas. Either area you need to look when you cross the road. Anyone who thinks that just a glance either way before they cross is good enough is kidding themselves. Crossing the road is likely the most dangerous thing you are going to be doing today. For city people it is going to happen often every day. You are crazy if you don't keep a constant eye out on what's happening before and during the crossing.

You have to be more aware of cars on the road when you are a pedestrian than if you were a driver. You have no big metal cage to keep you safe ... why they hell would you not actively concentrate when taking your life in your hands like that?

I second the motion that "If you're not smart enough to look before you cross the street, then you're not smart enough to live."

This shit gets drummed into kids heads for the reason. It is dangerous. Take your life seriously.

Unless you are going to alter the sound your bike/car makes every day so that it is consciously noticed by everyone, then the safety argument holds no water.

You know what will save lives? Less stress. More concentration on the tasks at hand, driving, walking, or otherwise. You know what noise pollution does? It causes stress, it breaks concentration. Hell, it inhibits learning.

Lastly, come on... any deaf or hard of hearing person who decides it is a good idea to cross the road better be making damn sure about the situation with the senses that do work. Hell, handing out glasses to the hard of hearing will save more lives than making cars louder. Add to that the benefit of less stress in the general area of these quiet cars and you have healthier people, happier children.

[Retroboy]

So here's the article in question
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1681511/

Some points
- Bikers are feeling targeted. A city councillor who suggested a crackdown has been threatened.
- One rider set up a "loud bikes save lives" facebook site.
- Some municipalities receive a big volume of complaining calls.
- I like this quote:

In Edmonton, Mr. Horne — who is the owner of a BMW touring bike — has heard a long list of riders' excuses for making a big racket, including that a loud bike is a safe bike.

“That's a bunch of hogwash ...

“Loud pipes don't save lives, proper defensive driving saves lives.”

Anyways, it reminded me of some times when I woke up in the early morning to hear a neighbour's Harley ripping out of their driveway and racing up to the exit of my subdivision. I timed it - could still hear him a full two minutes later, and he was moving.

[mololu]

I think the point that Dasakamov was trying to make was much the same as I was: A totally silent vehicle is more dangerous than an overly loud one. The point here was completely off topic and thus I'll move on.

The above however should not be an excuse to drive overly loud vehicles for no reason at all because it makes you feel more powerful or whatever. And thus i'd agree that loud vehicles saving lives is utter bullshit. If you perk up, hearing something rumbling 1'000 meters away it won't do you much good and tends to distract more than anything else.

Where I live you can't play loud music after 20:00 for a good reason too: people want to sleep and given todays world I'm really glad for every minute of sleep I get.

The stress point is also very valid. I've been sleeping a lot better after moving away from the city center. It's the kind of thing you notice when some people shouting at 3AM stops waking you up. Less noise is generally a good thing.

[GeoffS]

I second the motion that "If you're not smart enough to look before you cross the street, then you're not smart enough to live."

So visually-impaired people should not be allowed to cross the street?

Or walk anywhere that there are hybrid cars?

[Dimension]

So I deserve to die or be crippled for the 2% or so that I - for whatever reason - forget to look both ways.

sorry, that isn't offensive enough, could you please also insult my mother or something?

Seriously, how can having a second safety-net (hearing a car on top of seeing it) possibly be bad? I honestly hope that kind of attitude isn't too prevalent in the world.

Nobody likes loud cars and bikes, but to me there's absolutely no question that a minimum noise level is absolutely necessary to minimize accidents, especially at low speeds.

[LoCo]

GeoffS: Yes, because visually-impaired people can see, so obviously the statement "If you don't look" applies to them. I mean ... are you talking about the blind? Or people that need glasses? If they are blind they generally have guide dogs. If they need glasses then what the hell are they doing without them on?

Further, if they are blind and don't, for some reason, have a guide dog, then they either walk with someone or they use the traffic lights. The world is dangerous for them either way though. Statistically speaking it is drastically unlikely for them to get hit by a car.

And lets not forget that your statement is ridiculous because I'm not saying, in any way, that all cars and bikes need to be super silent death machines. This is about the obnoxiously loud bikes/cars. If you would care to make a thread about the topic you are trying to promote, I would be more than happy to explain, in detail, how you are attempting to twist my words so that you can get a rise out of me or win some internet points.

Dimension: While the original words were not mine, I do support the intent, as I see it, behind them. The intent being that it is gross incompetence on your part if you step out into the road and get hit by a car because you weren't paying attention. Hell, it's nearly suicide. Tell me, if you are driving do you also have that same 2% of inattention? Because I believe that if you do, you shouldn't be driving either. It's no different if you are walking. I just care less about it if you are walking because you do less collateral damage than you would be doing in a car or on a bike.

If you are not paying attention, then you deserve the consequences. I'm not sure how you find that insulting, though I can see that the original wording that I quoted may have been a little aggressive.

Fair enough on your last point. I don't argue against that. I'm arguing against the idea that obnoxiously loud noise is a 'safety' feature. You may note that I was using the terminology "making cars louder" and such.

[Dimension]

LoCo, I see your point, but it is incredibly unforgiving, and given human nature, not applying to reality at all in my opinion. I seriously doubt that you are 100% attentive 100% of the time. I cannot even recall the last time I didn't look while crossing a road, yet I know I'm human, and I'm pretty sure it did happen at one point and that it will happen again.

Also, by extension, you're revoking the rights of children, mentally disabled and elderly to walk around in public if there's a road near unless you're 100% on them looking. Or rather, not revoking their rights, but saying that whatever happens to them is what they deserve. Including death, crippling, pain. If you're serious about that, then I must question your compassion.

By that rationale, I wonder why one would bother about safety measures or indeed going so far as to get people who injured themselves by being stupid or careless into a hospital. Whatever the consequences of their actions, they deserve them, right?

I'm arguing against the idea that obnoxiously loud noise is a 'safety' feature. You may note that I was using the terminology "making cars louder" and such.

And its important to make the distinction instead of making the blanket statements that were very very prevalent at the beginning of this discussion.

That said though, those argueing obnoxiously loud noise is a safety feature are shooting themselves in the foot:

1) if everyone is obnoxiously loud, there's no guarantee you will be heard over others.
2) if everyone is obnoxiously loud, people will be so stressed out that they cannot concentrate and will be more prone to unsafe behaviour.
3) Other people might be distracted by your obnoxiously loud noise and fail to hear others approaching.
4) Obnoxiously loud noise may lead to people's hearing being permanently damaged. Leaving aside the fact that you're physically damaging a person and reducing the quality of that person's life, this also doesn't exactly lead to safety either.

So yeah, I'm glad just modifying your cars and bikes to your own personal liking isn't unchecked in the country I live in.

[GeoffS]

LoCo, I'm not sure how you associate "visually impaired" with "people that need glasses" since they are clearly not the same thing. Neither are "visually impaired" and "blind" the same thing, though "blind" is a subset of "visually impaired". For the record, and to eliminate any further confusion, visually impaired means having sight problems that are unable to be corrected by surgery or corrective lenses. It covers a huge range of sight problems and abilities but there is one thing in common, people who are visually impaired are much more dependent on hearing to be able to navigate. That's what makes the post that you quoted so wrong, by being so extreme it ignored the problems of the visually impaired completely.

As for me "twisting your words", no, that's not the case. The post you were quoting and claiming to support was part of a discussion about precisely the issue that was discussed in the link that I posted, people who rely on hearing cars to be able to judge where they are.

I chose to only address that part of your post because it was the part that I disagreed with. The rest of your post, where you were discussing the problem of excessively loud bike noise, was something I agree with.

[ShyGuy]

If you're not smart enough to look before you cross the street, then you're not smart enough to live.

So I deserve to die or be crippled for the 2% or so that I - for whatever reason - forget to look both ways.

I can't speak to the first quote directly, and you're absolutely right (Dimension) that its an unforgiving attitude which doesn't much apply to the "real world" where everybody now and then gets distracted, taken as it is written.

But speaking more towards what I took to be the spirit of the original post, it seems clear that except under narrow circumstances, you've no-one to blame except yourself when you get hit crossing the road without looking. Does this mean that you *deserve* to get hit? Absolutely not. But it does shift the responsibility for the accident away from the driver / owner of the vehicle. There are dozens of "what about this" scenarios that we could postulate - which all occur on a daily basis with some non-zero frequency - for which the looking-both-ways method isn't, alone, a sufficient-enough safety precaution.

Which ones do we regulate for? Depends. Getting a little off-topic here, but it's practically undeniable that we would save a lot more lives by enacting (and enforcing) stricter speed limits than we would by making cars louder. Of course, these things aren't mutually exclusive - we could do both - but the point I'm hoping to put across is that we don't have stricter speed limits, because as a society, we don't feel that the "cost" justifies the lives saved. For what its worth, I'm of the opinion that obnoxiously loud automobiles isn't worth the cost of the limited safety benefits.

I don't think this opinion make me any more cruel or heartless than a thousand other similar decisions we all make about the values of others' lives everyday (cue, for just $1 a day...).

Caveat, after all that: I do mean obnoxiously loud. I don't have a problem with noise-makers in hybrids that bring them up to an average noise level for safety reasons.

[SpitfireMK461]

It is odd for me to read this thread when I also belong to a car forum.

I'm just curious, does anyone in here enjoy cars or motorcycles at all beyond their use as transportation?

Nobody likes loud cars and bikes

That is just wrong on many levels. If that were so, no form of auto racing would exist, or any kind of sports car or sport bike, etc. Plenty of people like vehicles with loud engines. That being said, not all loud things sound good, and there is a time and a place for them.

Personally, I feel that Harleys sound like shit, but sport bikes (which can be nearly as loud) sound beautiful and don't have a problem with them at all. That being said, I can understand why there would be ordinances limiting the sound levels of vehicles (I think many places already have these in their requirements for street legality).

[titlams]

I do. Iv always loved cars (read: cars I hate bikes) for there speed and how nice they look, not because there loud. Loud is ok to a degree but there is a point of just being really loud then your engine sounds crappy because its not the sound it should be which takes away the point of whatever engine mods you did.

I pretty sure people race for thrill not for noise.

[DoomKnights]

I say slap the limits on there, I am tired of loud cars and bikes which hurt my ears, distract me and cause only irritation. You can love bikes and cars without having to lose your hearing. I am always love cars that are super quiet. You put the effort into lowering their noise. Hearing a purring car is great. I don't need to blow my ears to feel like the cars are good. Orks might light it, but meh.

[Starblade]

That is just wrong on many levels. If that were so, no form of auto racing would exist, or any kind of sports car or sport bike, etc. Plenty of people like vehicles with loud engines.

Really? Not the style, or the feel, or the speed, or anything, just how loud it is? Damn, I should go into business selling fog horn attachments.

e: It'd even help with those totally silent cars! No one steal my idea.

[SpitfireMK461]

Really? Not the style, or the feel, or the speed, or anything, just how loud it is? Damn, I should go into business selling fog horn attachments.

Why would anyone go watch a race if they disliked the extremely prevalent sound of the cars? But you are right, and I should amend what I said to "spectator" racing.

I'm not at all saying the sound is what makes a race/sports car, but no one buying a Ferrari wants to silence the V12 in it. Companies go to great lengths to make sure their exhaust systems sound great. To say "No one likes loud cars" is completely wrong.

[Starblade]

Why would anyone go watch a race if they disliked the extremely prevalent sound of the cars?

For the same reason we watch horse races and human races and dog races and all of that, I would imagine.

Companies go to great lengths to make sure their exhaust systems sound great. To say "No one likes loud cars" is completely wrong.

I'm sure, though, it's interesting how you've changed from "sound loud" to "sound great".

[Dark_Axel]

In case of the hybrid/electric cars making a minimum amount of sound. I would like to remind people that it's also important for normal pedestrians and cyclist when they are travelling around an area with blind curves/crossings (small city streets). They tend to move around on sight in combination with hearing.

On the subject of loud motorcycles (or road going vehicles in general). I do volunteer work at the Grand Prix circuit at Assen in the Netherlands. Due to sound restrictions (because of urban areas creeping up closer) we usually have to ban people from practice (race) driving on instruction days, mostly because they have a racing exhaust fitted. Although normal road legal exhaust do tend to be already pretty close to the limit.

Anyway, real racing cars/bikes don't make that much really nice music (I mean sound )... at least not when you are 5 metres away from them... (even a race tuned FordGT )
But that's because the lower tones carry better with distance, that's why you hear those Harley's from much farther away. Luckily my sound protection helps to tune the high rev sounds, making it much more like music

EDIT: Retro, just let me know in which area you live, and I will ask these guys to come by... Train horns on cars, crazy stuff

[SpitfireMK461]

I'm sure, though, it's interesting how you've changed from "sound loud" to "sound great".

Because, as I already got at, loud and great aren't synonyms. Something can be loud and ugly, something can be loud and great. My opinion is that harleys fall under the former (as most i this thread seem to agree with), while sports cars/bikes tend to fall under the latter.

[Retroboy]

Spit, this issue is your "sounds great" is another person's "Grab mah Winchester, Emma, I'ma gonna finish thet fuckin' injerred cat off raht now."

If you disagree, go to a karaoke bar.

Loud is loud, and decibels should be the metric if they are part of the general and public world. The same should apply to cars in general. (Sorry, but a thumping blatting superloud (note emphasis) exhaust is still a juvenile and intrusive I-don't-give-a-shit-about-others plea for attention regardless of the vehicle that owns it in this neck of the woods.)

That being said, there are legitimate venues for such super-loud things, but keep them at the beachside dragstrip or the Nascar rally or the car show. My neighbourhood and city streets are not one of those places.

[LoCo]

Dimension: I maintain that if you are driving, or walking across the road, or doing any kind of dangerous activity, then you need to be at 100% attention. I don't think it is too much to ask that for the period of time that it takes to complete the activity that you pay attention. Fire-fighters who run into a burning building may do that same activity every day, but it doesn't get less dangerous because of repetition. They have to be alert the whole time. If they aren't, and they get hurt, then they have only themselves to blame. The same holds true for crossing the road. Just because it's an activity that you do every-single-fucking-day and you just don't feel like you are in that much danger, after all you are simply crossing the road, doesn't mean that you can slack off your attention. Do you know how much harm you will do to the driver of the car that hits you because you weren't paying attention. What if he cripples you? What if he kills you? What if someone tries to push you out of the way of the car you didn't see coming and gets harmed themselves?

Paying attention in cases such as these is about not being a selfish douche. You harm more than yourself, and that's why I believe that there should be no '2%' margin of error allowed.

GeoffS: Fair enough then. I take it by now that you understand that I mean that if you get harmed through inattention then you deserve the consequences and not that visually-impaired people should be mowed down by all drivers.

Note to all who would like to argue the point about "deserve the consequences". I'm not saying 'leave the people to bleed out in the street'. That isn't a consequence of getting hit by a car in our society. In our society being hit by a car generally means you get taken to the hospital. The consequences I'm talking about are the crippled leg, the hospital fees, insurance/repair fees for the driver's car, possibly even being fined for 'reckless endangerment' or something, etc. Things along those lines. Just be aware of that before you try to argue I want to see absent-minded people's blood running through the streets.

SpitfireMK461: What's wrong with buying a Ferrari but wanting it to be quieter? Your statement made it sound almost sacrilegious. I for one hate the loud rumble and would rather have a gentle purr.

[SpitfireMK461]

Retroboy: I don't disagree that there should be limits on how loud a vehicle on public roads can be. I never said the opposite. I'm not completely sure, but I feel certain that many states around the nation already have limits on how loud a vehicle can be and still be street legal. I'm more concerned with the statement "Nobody likes loud cars" which is completely untrue. I also can't think of a single stock, street legal car (motorcycles possibly yes) that is intrusively loud (despite whether I like the sound or not) unless you happen to live in the middle of nowhere and find the noise a civic makes intrusive.

LoCo: There is nothing inherently wrong with that, despite my personal opinions. I'm also certain you'd be in a small minority if you were a person seriously wanting a car like a Ferrari (high performance race inspired vehicle with a high displacement, high revving engine) yet wanting it to be quieter than it actually is.

[Retroboy]

I'm more concerned with the statement "Nobody likes loud cars" which is completely untrue. I also can't think of a single stock, street legal car (motorcycles possibly yes) that is intrusively loud (despite whether I like the sound or not) unless you happen to live in the middle of nowhere and find the noise a civic makes intrusive.

I agree that the statement you point out IS inaccurate as evidenced by my "except at nascar events" and the other exceptions qualifier.

But I have run into street-model cars with thrush-muffler additions that have been made artificially louder to the point where they do stand out, and I for one do not like their sound at all, and I doubt most drivers do as well. They're certainly not as loud as a Harley, but you can be quite uncomfortable sitting next to one at a red light with the windows down.

Not sure about local laws limiting how loud they can be - I'd guess there are statutes that limit it, but it's likely a bit like seatbelts: they crack down when someone carps or every once in a while when they're in danger of not making their speeding ticket fine quota but it's ignored for much of the rest of the time.

They certainly don't enforce such rules with Harleys in our area.

[Dimension]

I'm more concerned with the statement "Nobody likes loud cars" which is completely untrue.

Yeah, don't get too hung up on it, it was a stupid and inaccurate generelization that I did'nt think would be taken too serious. My fault.

LoCo, the way you're thinking has appeal in its clarity, but just isn't working in the real world imo.

People just aren't 100% attentive all the time, and no matter how much you'd like that, its just not realistic to demand that of someone given human nature.

You also don't seem to understand is that I'm not saying "Its okay to sometimes slack off and not be 100% attentive". You should of course be most attentive when doing something that can put you and others in danger. What I'm saying is "people will not be 100% attentive 100% of the time, they'll make mistakes". Even though its their responsibility, I believe we should be able and willing to sacrifice a small part of our freedom if it helps these people not die.

I also think you're being selfish. You happen to like purring cars. Thats okay in theory, but if those cars turn out to be so quiet they cannot be heard, and thus endanger people because they are careless, visually impaired, or their vision is obstructed by other objects, I'm wondering if your personal preference for quiet cars, just like somebody elses personal preference for loud cars, should stand back behind the safety and health of others. In my opinion, you should be okay with giving up that freedom (deciding to have a really loud or really quiet vehicle) to save lives and livelihoods.

[titlams]

A well driven Ferrari does purr like its designed to. There not suppose to blow your ears off, they sound awful because people think HI REVS = MOAR POWA and rev the shit out of there car destroying the decent elegant sound there meant to have and the engine along with it.

A crappy car with a fake dump valve, 10" exhaust and uber super noise adders don't help and normally get ridiculed by anyone at the cruise who actually knows anything about cars. example these idiots who try to make a sunny sound like a pulsar. A small majority of people like cars because there loud, a larger majority like good sounding engines that just so happen to be loud.

If you choose to move somewhere where loud cars are meant to be run then you have no right to complain about the noise (ie those dicks who move next to a race track then complain its too loud at night)

Also in England there is no sound limit that has to be abided to.

[Skyline Pete]

Australia does have laws that state motor vehicles aren't to emit noise louder than 93dB. This applies to motor cycles as well.

However Australia's bike community (particularly the 'chopper' scene) are generally associated with motor cycle gangs like Hell's Angels or the Rebels and thus police and traffic officials won't impose fines on them.

Both of my sports cars, both with aftermarket exhausts, operate within the appropriate guidelines.

[troff]

They're extremely irritating to all but those who ride them in Asia, even if there's only one, or one dozen the effect is the same.

The amount of inconvenience to a sleeping neighbourhood at 3am is indescribable (btw please don't think I have anything against Harley riders, I just wish they'd be more considerate)

Can I ask two questions:

1. Does the bike itself have to be so noisy? Generally speaking a lot of noise means more inefficiency in the engine. Or is it every large bike cannot avoid being loud due to the nature of the engine.

2. Is there a certain sort or type of people that tend themselves to driving them? Do you ride or own one yourself? If so do share your personal experiences as being a non-rider we may not have the full picture here.

BTW that Southpark episode with the Harley riders was funny but IMHO I'm not sure if it's entirely accurate in real-life

For those who brought up the point that if the Harleys were too silent this would pose a safety risk, this is FYI below - hybrid cars to be fitted external speakers because they are too silent:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/24/t...l-speaker-opt/

This is really besides the point to the extreme of splitting hairs. It's not because they could be too silent, it's because they are too loud.

[Retroboy]

1. Does the bike itself have to be so noisy?

No. Harley's are loud right out of the factory, but it's muscle-car loud. What people do is purchase "after-market" modifications to them, or simply modify them, to hugely increase the volume. A biker friend of mine told me it's as simple as taking a ball-peen hammer and knocking all of the baffles out of the muffler, turning it essentially into a megaphone.

Can't answer your second question specifically as I'm not a rider. But I do know some things that I think honest riders would agree with because some of my close friends have and enjoy motorcycles.

Besides being an obvious inexpensive and conveniently fast form of personal transportation compared to other vehicles, motorcycles attract those that have an interest in the "freedom" of the open air and a close-to-the-road driving experience. This mutual interest can often bond people together, and has spawned entire subsocieties that are built around the theme that you have to be a certain type of rider to belong.

Some of these societies are very aligned with surrounding social norms - the Gold Wing near-retiree couples that travel the countryside in a fleet on their forty-thousand dollar radio-equipped luxury motorcycles would be like this. Others, like the gangs, have spawned their own rules and derive some benefit from being noticed. Sometimes it's "hey I'm a rebel!", and sometimes it's "Hey this is my team" and sometimes it's "This is my territory yo".

A loud bike gets you noticed. And if your social norm is "Hey I'm here right now and fuck everyone else that is not like me", the louder, the better.

================

I did a readthrough of the 300+ comments that are now on the news story linked above and noticed something interesting but not really surprising. Those that support loud motorcycles appear almost singularly to be lacking empathy for others in their answers. Go figure.

[Moe]

Yeah I think the safety argument is sort of stupid too. I can't think of a reason that you need a special way to alert drivers to your presence unless you're driving unsafely.

More and more cars come with either a separate set of LEDs (Audi, Mercedes) or have their headlights switch on automatically when you're driving (Daytime Running Lights or DLR, e.g. on VWs). This is done to increase visibility and to alert others to your presence.

Now I'm not arguing that loud Harleys are a safety feature, but as some people have pointed out already, quiet electric cars may actually pose a safety hazard due to the lack of noise. The reason why the loud harleys save lives argument is probably hogwash is that a normal motorcycle or car emits enough noise to be noticed under normal conditions.

[Paladin]

...unless you're driving unsafely...

Have you even been out on the road lately?

[Caesar]

Let's all be disdainful of things we're not a part of! Awesome!

Firstly, have any of you ridden a motorcycle? Extensively? Because if you haven't, you're not familiar with how easy it is to show up in someone's blind spot and almost get run over if they try to change lanes. The loud exhaust actually does make drivers aware of your presence. Especially on a crowded street.

[Retroboy]

No question, Caesar.

But create a law that requires that all two-wheeled conveyances below a certain size have to emit a certain level of noise when they are on the road in circumstances in which audible cues as to their location will increase the safety of their riders.

What is the answer?

A HORN.

[Void]

How would a horn help anyone in that scenario? The motorcyclist would have to use it continuously to announce his or her presence.

As a driver, I approve of louder - not stupidly loud - motorcycles. Cars are all soundproofed to an extent and anything that tells me that one is behind me is good in my book.

It still means you have to drive carefully, but on that one occasion where he's in your blindspot or whatever unfortunate circumstance, hearing the cycle may prevent an accident.

As a pedestrian, I find them unpleasant. But when it's between some unpleasantness and possibly having someone on your conscience, I choose louder bikes.

[Moe]

Firstly, have any of you ridden a motorcycle? Extensively? Because if you haven't, you're not familiar with how easy it is to show up in someone's blind spot and almost get run over if they try to change lanes.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that I'm not the only one here who is familiar with this despite never having ridden a motorcycle, because I'm the guy who's blind spot they creep up in. And not once have I noticed the noise - probably because on a crowded freeway, there's so much noise between my car, the truck next to me, and the other ten thousand cars around me, not to mention the radio, that I only ever notice extremely loud motorcycles when they're in front of me, when I can clearly see them anyways.