Legendary: a League of Legends discussion

[Sinogrim]

Having picked up Skarner, I can't help but notice he's pretty freaking bad in the jungle. So, why did Riot "hype" this guy up to be a jungler while he's outclassed by basically every other jungler out there?

As a jungler, I am quite dissapointed in Skarner. I hope he gets some love next patch to make him atleast half decent in the jungle...

[Akranadas]

Not so much Riot: More Phreak. He plays everyone who as a self heal ability as a jungler

[Open Blue]

I'm still seeing Tryndamere trying to be built with crit stacking. Please, please stop this stupidity, he's now an AD + AS carry, like an AD Yi with wall-hacks.

Also, super pumped for new Garen skin, finally something that doesn't look like a little kid dressed with a scarf mommy made, because it's cold out.

[Kryopsis]

What's wrong with Commando Garen and Deathknight Garen?
But yeah, I already bought RP to get that Rugged skin.

Oh, and the new Pantheon can suck a dick.

[D-coy]

He's just too manly for you. ^^

[Jopax]

From what i hear Skarners Q is bugged and does not proc the extra magic damage against jungle creeps for some reason.But i prefer him much better as a laner anyways, he is quite weak early on but if you get a proper lanemate you can do quite nicely until you get some tougher skin and teeth, then just ghost, hit W and pull someone into your team/tower for endless amusement

[Trizzdog]

I fought a Skarner with infinite gunblades and AS. It was intense.

[Infidelicious]

/smug

[Jopax]

Skarner with any AS and god forbid a Rylai/Gunblade is impossible to escape, like, EVER, not even Singed has his crazy chase potential of infinite slows, self speed buffs and that trolling piece of ult that makes me giggle like a schoolgirl everytime i use it.

[MirrorImage]

Morde being Morde. Hue Hue hue hue. Always shield, never die.



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[D-coy]

From what I hear Skarner's bonus magic damage on Q not working on champions is intended. So if Riot wanna make a good jungler out of him, they'll have to buff him a lil'.

[Sinogrim]

Does anybody have a (decent) build for Skarner btw? I've never really built champs hybrid, so, I'm kind of lost after boots. Solomid still doesn't have a single guide on him either .

[D-coy]

Well low CDs call for Sheen and Triforce or Lich if you get AP.

He's melee so something tanky would definitely be good, like Rylai's or Banshee's.

He spams spells so spellvamp would be nice too.

Good hybrid items would be rageblade or gunblade.

You can go AP+AD (rageb, gunb), AS+CDR+AP (Nashor's Tooth), or tanky Triforce.

It all comes down to looking at what he does and what he scales with and going from there. ^^

[Jopax]

Well depending on what you go for your core items should be:
AD: Your core is Nashor and Triforce, if you aren't focused or you are doing great throw in Youumu as well (extra MS FTW!) and the rest would be tank stuff, FN, sunfire, banshee, the situational stuff
AP:Core items are Lichbane, Nashor(yes it's that good) and Rylai/Gunblade, the rest is tanky stuff

If you are having mana problems (i solve them runes/masteries and blue whenver possible) grab a tear early on and depending on your build turn it into either of the super mana-to-power items.
The main gist is that you get lots of mobility and attack speed since that is your main source of both damage and utility while being tanky enough to survive trough it.

[D-coy]

Just remember to change up your build depending on the opposition.

[[Vertigo]]

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Dilemma's 3rd game as Akalie. Surprised they didn't surrender after 60 minutes.

[D-coy]

Loving the Thornmail on Irelia vs zero autoattack physical champs. XD

And that's why I don't like Akali... she kills a lot, yet can't carry. Imagine how much better she would've been doing with an Abyssal (I don't know how many Mejai's stacks she had, so it's hard to judge if that was efficient or not, but some more MR can go a long way).

Also, I still don't see much use of Rylai's on Morg, would rather get Banshee's, especially against this team. Someone hit me on the head if I'm missing out on something awesome (other than it slows a wee tiny bit).

And Veig with that much AP, but no boots or Lich. :S

[Kryopsis]

And that's why I don't like Akali... she kills a lot, yet can't carry.

What are you talking about?

[Brenil]

Isn't killing a lot of people the entire basis of the term 'carry'? Saying Akali can't carry is, quite honestly, laughably beyond belief. She's one of the most insane AP carries in the game.

And there's nothing wrong with Rylai's on Morgana as it causes her pool to be an AoE slow and gives her more tanking ability. It isn't a required item for her, but the 15% AoE slow is nothing to sneeze at in team fights and is a great way to setup for her ultimate which further AoE slows and stuns.

[D-coy]

A carry makes the team win late game. Akali is easy to take down most of the time, so she's less of a carry than say Irelia. Irelia can kill whole teams, Akali usually cannot (MR and tanks). That's what I meant.

Okay, I thought getting MR on Morg would be better since it makes her E stronger on herself. And it seems like I underestimated the effect of that Rylai's slow.

[Trizzdog]

Good carries make you win before everyone else is 18.

Using that definition above, Akali make a wonderful carry. Good akalis I face, once they get their gunblade and rylai's, use their smoke bomb of godly imba smartly, and then derp all over the place with the rest of her abilites while doing insane damage and lifesteal/spellvamp tanking. Even if you have an oracle's to see through the smokebomb, she still gets the slow and the bonus 50 resistance in it. Irelia can be annoying, but not like Akali. Akali is counterable even with all her bullshit, but she is definitely the biggest pain in the dick to deal with in the game.

[D-coy]

Akali is a mid to early late game squishy killer, not much more. Her potential falls off as the game goes on unless she's extremely fed. Opponents get tankier (even by levels) and get their MR items.

Also she won't get 50 defence 'early' game, since if the Akali has any brains they'll max shroud last, which means that's like a bonus 20 defence which isn't much.

[Kryopsis]

Her potential falls off as the game goes on unless she's extremely fed.

Good carries get fed, mate. Sorry to break the news to you.

[[Vertigo]]

I still don't see much use of Rylai's on Morg,

The only thing keeping me going through most team fights early on was my RoA and the Rylia. Quite a few time I would make it out with only 100 or less HP. Zonya's helped late game but our Teemo just could NOT BE AN IDIOT! He would wonder off on his own and get one man ganked by just about anyone he met. His build was terrible. Top lane, Teemo and Leona versus Vayne and Irelia, starting out was getting slaughtered. Mid, Morgana versus Swan, was meh; spell vamp vs spell vamp a rather derpy lane. Both was hilarious, Akalie and Blitz verus Viegar and Ann. Bot was just great for us but top wasn't doing anything but feeding.

Mejai's stacks she had

I was the one who pushed him to get a Mejai. 15 minutes into the game and he had the most kills on our team. At the start he had problems getting stacks but it came together in the end. Even so the rest of our team just couldn't push even with AMAZING AKALIE rubbing her face on the keyboard over Vayne every minute or so.

[D-coy]

Good carries get fed, mate. Sorry to break the news to you.

There's 40/0/12 fed and then there's 10/2/9 fed. Akali is the first example and still gets bursted down easily, should she be focused, while someone like Irelia does not. Or Olaf, but he's more of an anti-carry (like Akali). Actually the line between carry and anti-carry is really thin most of the time.

Thanks Vert, nice summary.

[Brenil]

Akali is too squirrely to burst down unless you have your entire team focusing her. Which given the fact that she is fed (and thereby carrying) means she bursts down your own squishies while the rest of their team is bursting you down. The very nature of her ultimate means it works like a better version to Katarina's but on a single target scale. For every kill, or assist, she gets another charge. This mean, when fed, she can domino and make multi-kills like no one's business. And taking the given that someone is fed (and again, thereby carrying), this means her items will outstrip your offense and defense and thereby making her lethal for long enough for the rest of her team to catchup. Again, therefore she is 'carrying' the team to victory by not only bursting down the enemy squishies but also making them deal with one character and more or less ignoring her team.

Your whole argument against Akali being a carry seems to be an argument in vain against the entire concept of carries. If Akali isn't a carry, then no one is.

[Sinogrim]

IMO, there's something broken with Akali. Everytime she gets a few kills, like 2 kills in 20 minutes, she just seems to snowball her way like no other champ. She's pretty tanky, has enormous burst damage, is able to stick to someone like gum to a shoe and has a cloak/slow which can easily be used in bushes and the likes to get away from multiple champions.

[D-coy]

@ Brenil

She's an anti-carry who has some carry potential. You yourself said she can burst down squishies. However facing a fairly tanky team she can't do much. That's why I think she's not a good carry, if one at all. Too situational for my tastes.

@ Sinogrim

She can get out of hand, but there's ways around that. ^^

[Brenil]

Who else would she burst down? Their tanks? You realize you need quite a bit of hit points and magic resist to come anywhere near to be able to shrug off Akali's damage, yes? This is the same problem people have with other carries like Yi or Tryndmere, where the defensive solution to the problem isn't a solution at all because you have no effective damage to burst down the problem champion or deal with the rest of the team.

I don't see your argument in any real context to the actual game. Akali can only be effectively dealt with by shutting her down and preventing her from getting fed. But just like the other (super) carries (Master Yi, Tryndmere, ect) they will still eventually present a problem, so you can only just mitigate their impact rather than negate it completely unless the player is completely inept. Saying simply you can burst down Akali is ignoring a realistic game scenario and one I've faced more times than I'd like to admit.

[Akranadas]

If the enemy team picks a Akali, I pick Poppy

[D-coy]

Brenil, there are champs with innate tankiness that make her only tickle them... not every team is going to have a squishy on it.

Akra has a point too. ^^

[Trizzdog]

I didn't know people played ranked all day every day and had the luxury of counter picking.

[Kryopsis]

D-coy, you have a very annoying habit of refusing to even consider counter-arguments to your stance (not to mention never admitting you are wrong). Brenil listed several champions, all of them hard carries and staples in a lot of LoL matches who have exactly the same problem. Speaking of Brenil, why do you constantly patronize people who are possibly even more experienced at the game than you are? That's downright offensive. Yes, some champions are harder to take down, yes Akali (or all hard carries, as a matter of fact) won't necessarily be able to quickly murder Cho'Gath, Garen or Malphite. That does nothing to support your argument that Akali is not a/can't carry. In fact, at this point I highly doubt that you can support that stance with anything other than personal preferences or opinions. Anything can be asserted without any evidence can be also disproved without any evidence, right?

[Sinogrim]

Well, to me, the problem with some champions (such as Akali, Udyr, Master Yi, Tryndamere) is that once the game has been going on long enough, you can basically type GG. Once these champions have their full gear, there just seems to be no way to stop them from completely dominating anyone that gets in their way, no matter what build you decide to go. It's a shame really. With these champions the game usually just stops being fun for me after the 45 minute mark .

[D-coy]

@ Kryopsis

Where once, was I attacking the person? I think I'm only countering the argument not the person, yet some of you guys seem to be out to get me or something. Being slightly cynical at times which I see no reason for.

How am I refusing counter arguments? I did say she can't carry (as in solo teams, not getting lot of kills), but I wasn't specific. What I really mean (after all of this), is that there are less risky, overall better carries available. That's why I personally, don't like her. Is this fine for an answer?

@ Sinogrim

Or Nasus. Yeah, some champs seem to have a passive ability: make me lose in 40 mins or you will be defeated... tick, tock, tick, tock...

Best you can do is deny their farm at all times and not die to them. And get counter items faster than usual.

[Brenil]

Brenil, there are champs with innate tankiness that make her only tickle them... not every team is going to have a squishy on it.

And there are champions with CC that can counter other hard carries. What's your point? That certain champions can help solve the carry issue? This does nothing to suggest Akali isn't a carry, just that she does have a weakness to certain champions, just like other carries do.

Floating past all the scuttlebutt. The definition of a carry is someone who progressively gets better with more items to the point they do so much damage the enemy team must deal with them first or be destroyed directly or indirectly. Master Yi, Tyrndamere, Jax, Caitlyn, Kassadin, Vayne, and so forth are all well defined carries. They all do tons of damage and can burst down most champions and typically get a lot of kills. Explain how Akali does not fit into that mold, because I frankly don't see how that is possible.

[bman3k]

To me "carries" are the champions who's damage mostly comes from auto attacks or who have abilities that immensely boost their autoattack damage (ie. Yi, Tristana, Ashe). In my opinion Akali is better at doing burst damage through her spells than actually just auto attacking a lot, things like running out of energy or getting silenced will hurt her damage out put a lot more than a Yi or Ashe. Also Akali is limited a lot by her cool downs (again, pointing out the burst that comes from her spells). Akali doesn't fit the mould in that she can only really burst down squishies fast, bruisers are a lot more trouble for a fed assassin than a fed carry who have sustained damage out put. Again, I'm not saying that Akali isn't a strong damage dealer or a monster when fed, but just that she is not a carry (in my opinion ).

[Kryopsis]

Champions that generally start off weaker than other champions, but become gradually powerful as they gain levels and items to the point where they can potentially take on multiple champions by themselves. Most carries have skills, passive or active, that scale with their stats, such as an increase in Base Damage and Attack Speed, and rely mostly on their regular attack to dish out damage. Carry champions are extremely effective late-game at pushing the team to victory, either by killing off key players on the enemy team, controlling elements of gameplay, deal large damage in team fights or supporting the team in attacking.

Carry champions

[bman3k]

Jarvan is also listed on that page... so I don't think it's totally infallible. Also it say says how carries rely mostly on autoattacks for their damage.

[D-coy]

I agree with bman3k definition of a carry, and I already stated that while Akali might be a carry, I, personally, don't like her as a carry, since there are more reliable carries, in my opinion.

That's all I have to say.

[Caesar]

Not liking someone as a carry and claiming they aren't a carry are two different things.

[Kryopsis]

There is a difference between claiming that the reliance on auto-attack is a sufficient condition of a carry and the observation that a lot of carries happen to have good auto-attack. Jarvan is listed erroneously, the list does not even link to his champion page. It is an issue with the organization of the database.

[bman3k]

It does link to Jarvans profile...
Assassins can carry but it doesn't mean they are carries, I know that sounds really weird, but any champ that is fed enough can technically carry a team.

[Kryopsis]

First of all, it does not link to Jarvan's profile, it links to his ability details. Second, when was the last time you saw a fed Shen carry a team?

[Akranadas]

Tanks are the real carries!

[D-coy]

Shen carried his team when he had a full Levi, a Sunfire, a FoN, Merc's, the old GA, and a Warmog's... true story.

[Heretic]

When playing League of Lol, I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who plays characters because they look amusing, possibly why I always play Tris, a tiny blue midget with a goddamn cannon. Being 'good' is a side concern when you have a cannon. However I have found myself hating many a Yi...

[[Vertigo]]

However I have found myself hating many a Yi...

This is normal. It means you are human.


As for the Akalie carry argument. Akalie can go AP or AD depending how the player wants to build her. Most of her damage comes from stacking AP items to boost her spells which would make her an AP carry if anything since her damage scales really well with AP. She doesn't have any real CC but she does have great mobility and smoke bombs. If anything I would class her as a AP/AD carry or fighter. She can carry but doesn't really. I guess she is one of those characters that's hard to define. If you are looking to take her down you are going to need CC and good amount of it. This is why you need a real tank on your team or supports. Akalie can't do a damn thing if she is chained stunned till death. She is definitely a champion that cannot be taken one on one very easily.

[Infidelicious]

Caesar also plays characters based on how they look; then complains when they suck and/or are literally irrelevant.

<3 Caesar

I'm bewildered by the continued Orianna nerfs. I guess she's amazing at higher ELO or something.

She strikes me as a harder to use Lux with team disruption instead of early game cc, and about equal damage output/sustain. Lux's E is easier to hit with, and does about the same damage as a Oriannas q-w combo in the early game. Lux's shield is easier to use, and effects multiple people. Laser does potentially more damage, is longer ranged and is on a shorter cooldown. Lux's passive does not require sustained auto attacks, and fits into a poke characters role.

[Jopax]

Orianna is more of a sustained harrasment while Lux loves to poke people, this makes her infinetly annoying since you have to watch constantly for both her, her lanemate (if she has one) and that damn ball of hers.

And how are you guys ELO wise? I have been fruitlessly trying to grind my way up to golden badge for that sexy Jarvan skin but it's hard, right now i am some five good games away from it and i think the deadline is today or something like that.The worst of it all is that i had the required ELO a week ago but then the details about the requirements were not known so i played myself down some 100 points :/