And once again I'm inclined to point out that Cyrus +3 scouts using shotguns took out 18 Devastators. Why shouldn't Catachans be able to take out SMs in an ambush with better than 2 to 1 odds?
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And once again I'm inclined to point out that Cyrus +3 scouts using shotguns took out 18 Devastators. Why shouldn't Catachans be able to take out SMs in an ambush with better than 2 to 1 odds?
Catachans do power weapon damage.
Seems like the easiest thing to do at this point is for relic to officially say that those swords are power weapons. Maybe they can add bayonettes to the shotguns and call them powered too.
At that point the weapon load out would match the damage type. Then no major rebalancing would have to be done.
Anyone know if it's codex legal for Catachans to field power weapons?
Cyrus and 3 scouts kililng 18 devs with shotguns is stupid for similar reasons. Shotguns have 0 armor penetration and scouts would get shredded by a heavy bolter. Also, why is Cyrus attacking loyalist devastators?
For the record, cultists should not be out-melee'ing SM units either. You've got CSM and bloodletters to fight SM, cultists' melee should not be effective vs heavy inf. They should be builders (shrines/turrets) and worship/buff units. In combat, they can get a GL for ranged support, but definitely should not be heavy damage dealers or melee tanks.
It was a training exercise, Gabe. Nobody actually died.
In that case, the point is moot. They may have "paintballed" them but in actual combat - even in the campaign - you cannot use cyrus and the shotgun squad against heavy ranged units.
#306
They were fighting to win; it was a training exercise. Someone whom is so evidently knowledgeable about the fluff as you should realise that Space Marines take such exercises very seriously, with some Chapters even taking their duels to the death instead of first blood.
Shotguns have "-" armour penetration in the TT stats. I thought you weren't using TT stats?
As a comparative example, modern shotguns penetrate Kevlar vests at short range, I think . . . and even if they don't the blunt trauma is enough to shatter bones.
Oh, and DoW II cultists aren't melee "tanks".
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
Cultists probably have weapons tainted by the warp, so they have an easier time with armor... although I think they have chainswords anyway (I could be wrong), which have no problem going through SM armor based on books.
jump+merciless strike on catachans = dead catachans
Cultists don't have chainswords, they don't have powerswords even. Just a straight piece of metal with an edge.
Therefore they should not be able to beat SM/CSM in melee, since they cannot reasonably damage them with a piece of normal metal and wouldn't be up to the task anyway.
#310
And this is why we don't balance the game on the fluff, and thus why your proposal of a "fluffy", balanced game is somewhat hard to achieve with DoW II's design in mind.
If you were going to completely redo the game from scratch, you would be able to do things differently.
It sounds like the only way to have a fluff compatible SM faction is to allow them to build only scouts and possibly allow tacs as a T3 call in unit. They'll have to make a whole new tier and resource (extra zealous zeal) for terminators, so that's another expansion away at least.
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Actually, the ONE thing I wish we could do is add wargear items individually to squads, like we could in dow1. You could have a plasma gun and a flamer if you wanted. That would be a great feature to add for modders. Right now if you add another wargear upgrade, it replaces the original one or worse, makes the other models' weapons disappear (old bug). You CAN add a wargear for the squad leader, but it has to be attached to the same upgrade and tagged "leader only" while the troops' wargear weapon is tagged "no leader." Then you can have 2 different weapons, one on the squad leader and one on the squad, but it's not the same as being able to add weapons one at a time.
I'm going to go ahead and chime in my opinion on game fluff, tabletop, and its relation to the video game.
the state of DoW2 thus far, while addictingly fun, is a dissapointment in terms of fluff and tabletop results when compared to the game. Every race has their problems, and I will go over each of them individually.
Space marines:
their biggest problem right now is that they do not feel like space marines to me. As an avid player of tabletop with space marines, an RPG fan that runs space marines, and a fluff-junky that reads on space marines (and eldar), I can say they just do not live up to their reputation. the biggest deficiency is the space marines lack of real melee. tacticals have a tendency to lose to everything but guardsmen in hand to hand combat in my experience, and it just feels wrong to see them lose to chaos cultists, deranged and very regular humans, so easily. Scouts are extremely fragile, though somewhat justified when out in the open, and I am always dissapointed when I find that my ASM cannot take on slugga boys 1 on 1. I can understand ASM losing to 2 slugga boy squads (which is quite easy to achieve), or a slugga boy squad with shoota support, but when I pay nearly double req and still lose, it makes me a sad panda. Wargear, additude, and shooting are, however, very space marine like.
The only thing I would change is give at least the ASM a modest damage boost. I mean, when one has no more than 12 models on the field, it can kinda get hectic, and space marines deserve to be that elite. I would also like to see the Librarian take the place of the Apothicary as a full commander.
Eldar: One can run a Uthwe force quite efficiently in this, and banshees >>>> tactical marines is exactly how it should be, but with only 2 aspect warrior squads, it really make the army one-dimensional in execution. Reliance on weapons platforms and gunlining takes away a signature mark of an eldar army: staggering mobility. I also believe that some t2 Eldar belong in T3, namely the Wraithguard. We got Banshees, Warp Spiders, and Brightlances to kill vehicles in T2, why on earth do we need another AV platform that are essentially mobile D-cannons in T2? Wraithguard should be more comparable to shooty terminators, and moved to T3. Give us another aspect squad, like Fire Dragons, if we want absolute anti-vehicle. I also have problems with the WSE being an ARMY commander, but the Autarch is a call in hero. Why? The Autarch is the commander of the ENTIRE Eldar warhost, yet is a mini-hero? Give me my full autarch!
Eldar really only need some re-organization to meet TT/Fluff standards, in my opinion.
More to come when I feel like it.
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@ Shuma's power armor comment
The "weak points" In space marine armor are still hard as hell to get through, and the space marine phisiology will srug off most wounds caused by a strike of normal human strength.
Either it needs to be a power sword, or something like a scorpion chainsword to effectively kill a space marine in melee. Just saying.
How about IG with their super melee units and anti-melee supremacy? Nids and orkz have to go shooty versus guard or be stomped and beaten up by Chuck Norris and the Catachan Texas Rangers. Also Ogryns. LOL@ the two most melee-heavy armies in all of fluff having to load up on critical shooty mass or be beaten at their signature feature by the IG of all things.
You make it sound like catachans can't be killed..
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#316
or you could be a mini-ogrynEither it needs to be a power sword, or something like a scorpion chainsword to effectively kill a space marine in melee. Just saying.
Remember: you're a blogger. Pretense is your co-pilot.
#317
He keeps on forgetting ASM have Jump and Merciless Strike.Originally Posted by CommissarRezail
#318
@ SovereignReigns
We already had a time when ASM were ownage and had to be facing two slugga squads to lose. Back then they didn't have double jump. Now with double jump and the ability to dictate when and where the fight is, they're in a good place.
Catas aren't mini ogryns. Even if they were, they still aren't on the level with a SM or CSM. I know about ASM jump and merciless strike, but ASM shouldn't need to upgrade to SGT and use 2 gimmicks to beat one squad of normal humans. Catachan faces are stronger than ceramite, I mean power swords and chainswords just bounce off them.
hence why I only asked for a very modest boost. I love using them, and their disruption is great, but I still feel they lack just a bit of bite. It is not unit-breaking, but it would be nice is all :P
#321
which is why it's 7v3Even if they were, they still aren't on the level with a SM or CSM
... O_o
Those odds would make catachans so much better and efficient than SM, that there would be no point in fielding or creating SM anymore. You could just clone catas and fill the imperial roster with them and you'd be all set.
No amount of normal humans with normal knives is getting through that power armor. You might as well attack a tank with a kitchen knife.
Catachans are referred to as 'Baby Ogryn' in the sacred fluff to describe their size and strength.
Really, at this point this argument is asking for SM to be buffed in order to make up for being a bad player. ASM can't beat Cats without using jump and strike! Why don't you use those? I don't wanna! Cats can beat tacs in melee! Did your Tacs shoot the Cats up on approach, and are you going to send support for them? No, I want my tacs to be able to slap them to death by themselves!
I do use them. I doscovered when we labbed it that ASM chainswords bounce of catachan faces at a ridiculous rate. And yes, Tacs should beat normal humans - even catas - to death no problem.
And yes, Tacs should beat normal humans - even catas - to death no problem.
In the fluff, yes. In the RPG, yes. In a multiplayer game like this, it has to be toned down. Why? If SM matched your standard of fluffiness you could just spam Tacs, wade through all IG lasfire in T1 and melee every enemy to death. The crimes you are accusing IG of (nullifying the melee of other races) will become the crime of the Space Marines. Tyranids sending gaunts in? Oh, the tacs can just slap them to death. Cultists? Slap'em. Don't need no melee counters, cause tacs are SUPERMEN.
This is why we do not use fluff for game balance. Fluff is used for inspiration of the units, their abilities and the functions of the armies but the nuts-and-bolts balancing of the game can't be held hostage by the game mechanics of an entirely different type of game. It'd be like balancing World of Warcraft classes based on Warcraft 3.
as the devs mentioned before, catachans are direct counters to ASM. quite frankly, if IG dont have both catachans and sentinels, ASM just rip IG a new one.
In any case, I personally dont have a problem against Catachans since i mow them down with sufficient firepower from my tacs.
And please, don't use labbing as your only evidence, it doesnt reflect ingame circumstances and such. its a foolish player who let ASM wander around the map by themselves without any form of support.
As mentioned before gabriel, tacs are able to stand their ground in melee in a 1 model to 1 model fight. in fact against guardsmen (which are regular humans) they do far better than 1:1 ratio.
@Fallschirmjager #326
Precisely the point I was trying to make. Cats fulfill a role that the IG as a faction need in DoW2. The only other option would be to move Ogryn to T1, and then we'd see Ogryn spam running around the map. You're also correct about the fallacy of using labs as the only source for balance testing, since if a SM and IG player sends their respective units out alone without support, they're just asking to be killed.
In addition, Tacs have higher than average melee damage and can stand their ground model for model in a fight, which conveys what Gabriel is insisting isn't present in the game.
Its not like people are having a real hard time with this 7 man squad, also they are considered mini orgyns
Catachan regiments generally lack Commissars. Even these tough and uncompromising officers are unable to assert their authority over the Catachan soldiers; in fact, they are resented by troops, and it is not uncommon for Commissars assigned to Catachan regiments to be "fragged" by their own troops. Ogryns however - who may well have evolved on Catachan themselves - commonly fight in Catachan regiments.
Due to their heavily developed physiques, normal human Catachans are sometimes referred to as "baby Ogryns."
One line in particular in novels should stand out in here, something to the effect of "one space marine is worth 100 guardsmen"
However, if that was really the case, it wouldn't be much of a game. The single player is much better at making you feel like a small squad of supermen. Game balance can't really work like that.
That does not mean that 1 space marine can kill 100 guardsmen on his own, it means he's literally more valuable than 100 guardsmen, takes more time to train, more money to equip and make, etc. Just like how Grey Knights are so valuable that the Imperium would rather blow up an entire planet than send them in and endanger them.One line in particular in novels should stand out in here, something to the effect of "one space marine is worth 100 guardsmen"
And for those doubting Catachan's melee skill, I can find at least one fluff book about Catachans fighting ORKS in melee. And taking hits and surviving to take down the offending Ork. Since Tac melee strength is roughly that of a single slugga? therefore Catachans should be able to defeat Tacs when outnumbering them 7v3.
Remember, Catachan's are no stranger to fighting dirty. They'll use feints and underhanded tactics to get a hit on a weakened joined or weak point etc...
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Tacs strength is double that of ork boyz, at least. Plus you are forgetting that they are much better fighters and have a huge physical advantage. Tacs are more comparable to nobz than boyz. And the catachans would need power swords or at least chainswords to even have a chance at harming the tacs. What are they gonna do about that power armored fist to the face? Or a tac's combat knife? How are the catas surviving chainswords hits from Astartes to retaliate with their knives?
Tacs don't have chainswords. They have combat knives I assume (from DOW1). So, its mighty surviveable. And you seem to underestimate the effectiveness of outnumbering your opponents. One can distract and parry while the other attack from behind with underhanded tactics.
Are you on crack? There's even official artwork of Ork boys ducking it out in melee with marine veterans, look:Tacs are more comparable to nobz than boyz.
Spoiler
Do you want to balance this game with a fluff perspective or from Matt Ward's perspective? I mean holy shit.
#335
Two guardsmen with chainswords and lightning attack put out 8 attacks per turn against a single Space Marine. Being conservative with WS for guard veterans and saying that they're about WS 40, that's ~3 attacks that land per turn. Rending means that 2 dice are rolled for each attack, making 6 attack dice on the Marine per turn. Even if the marine dodges or parry's one attack that's still 4 dice on him per turn. Probability dictates that after a few rounds those two guardsmen will start getting Righteous Furies on the Space Marine even if they can't penetrate their armour normally. A single Tac marine on the other hand (who doesn't get swift attack until rank 6) puts out one attack per turn against the two guardsmen he's fighting. That attack would do a decent amount of damage if it hit (though probably not kill outright) and let's not forget that the guardsmen can still parry or dodge the attack most of the time since a chainsword is a balanced weapon and guardsmen can actually buy additional parry bonuses.No Surrender, now you're just splitting hairs. The weapons damage and damage types can be tweaked for gameplay purposes, but the general badassery of SM/Elite characters is a perfect reference point to balance a video game around.
You will never get unarmed or poorly armed humans beating up Space Marines or Tyranid warriors bare handed or with non-melee weapons in melee using DW/40kRP as the basis for "how tough x is compared to y."
You don't have to use the exact damage tables for bolters, but just look at how powerful a rank 1 SM is with just 40's in his primary stats, compared to a human with the same stats. Look at the Guardsman entry. Especially in power armor, there's just no way that the guardsman will out-melee the Space Marine. He can't even damage him. That's very fluff-accurate. In a world where plasma shots sometimes don't go through power armor, why would a bare fist or a boot do it - and why would a boot tear up power armor better/faster than a chainsword will tear up bare human flesh? Cause THAT is what is happening when catachans beat ASM in DoW2.
So yeah, even in the FF RPG system it would be relatively simple to engineer a situation where guardsmen are a significant threat to space marines. I know this because in my last Deathwatch session our devastator was caught off guard by two heretic lieutenants with chainswords and suffered about 15 wounds damage in the three rounds it took for our librarian to come and force weapon them to death.
Then why don't Deathwatch Marines get unnatural agility? They start with average agility in the 40 range which is completely reachable by a Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader level (i.e. normal human) character over the course of a career. Given that we're talking about Catachans, who are deathworld veterans I don't see how it's implausible for them to have that level of reflexes. Of course, the fluff states that Marines are much faster than a normal human could ever hope to be, too bad you painted yourself into a corner with your "RPG STATS REFLECT FLUFF PERFECTLY" pitch./Sigh SM reflexes and movement speed even without armor are legendary. They far outpace humans in speed and agility; that's part of what the geneseed and implants are for. Eldar could claim that they are more agile, but that's a "design feature" of the eldar race. Remember, the Eldar, too, are an engineered race, created for superior intellect, psychic potential, and speed/grace/agility. A normal human isn't going to be as agile as a Space Marine, or as fast, or anywhere near as powerful or durable. SM COMPLETELY outclass normal humans in any kind of physical comparison. A Tyranid Warrior is a good match for a well-armed Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine. Not a bare chested human with a steel knife.
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I wish battles actually looked like that, i would forget to micro most of the time if they did. it be worth it.Are you on crack? There's even official artwork of Ork boys ducking it out in melee with marine veterans, look:
I said before that the source for fluff was FFG 40k RPG stuff. I didn't say that all the rpg stats always represent fluff perfectly. In fact, I specifically said that the weapons stats could be adjusted to fit a video game so that plasma guns are always better than bolters for example, but things such as humans out-melee'ing power armored SM with primitive steel knives and normal human str isn't going to happen.
And yes, SM agility and speed is definitely higher than humans in the fluff. You said so yourself.
@Shuma looks like the SM in the center has no problem catching that ork's choppa mid-swing and is about to follow up with the knife. He would have to be 1. faster than the ork boy to intercept his swing and 2. much stronger on a 1 for 1 basis, to be able to hold a charging ork swinging with all his might back like that with one hand.
Geez I hate to see when necrons enter dow again, and the necron lord gets shot down by 1 gm and a hero..(due to pro micoring)
I'm afraid I stopped taking this thread seriously when I got to 'Tacs are more comparable to Nobz' in strength.
NS gave a perfectly viable example of how puny humans can threaten space marines in the Deathwatch RPG which you yourself cited as an example for fluff. And as far as humans go, Catachans are nowhere near puny and neither are their weapons despite your insistance that they wield butterknives.
The more this thread goes on the more it appears to be the victim of trolling.
Agreed....
So can we stop talking about catachan now , its been literaly days now days -.- dayss.
Thirded. I'm out.
So can we stop talking about catachan now , its been literaly days now days -.- dayss.
Before that it was the 'IG Flamers can kill tanks and terminators' schtick but that's died down. Regardless, let's move on.
It was brought up earlier about giving Catachans a snare ability in some form. (By snare I mean an ability that slows down an enemy's movement speed rather than the ubiquitous hunter trap) As things are right now though, Cats come out of the box with two extremely useful abilities and adding a third in T1 would be a little over the top for them. I'm afraid my only real experience has been against computers so I can't speak to how useful it is but I'd propose scrapping the smoke grenades ability and giving the Cats a landmine that does no damage but snares the enemy. It could be dropped instantly (as opposed to the setup time required for the demolition charges) and go stealthed shortly afterward. Give it a cooldown to make sure it isn't spammable and it could be a good option to use against melee blob bum rushes. Fluffwise, Cats use landmines extensively so there is a basis for it...
In the original beta, it indeed looked like IG mass with flamers was taking ages to kill and ff'd down a razorback, and a termie squad.
Granted that was the pre-beta-beta, but you get the idea. I like the idea of snare mines for the veterans squad tho, will def use that in CE.
Instead of being of the forums debating the fluffiness of Retribution, I been playing and seeing for myself. After many encounters now, I strongly feel that the game is in a great state. I play IG quite a lot now, and SM's are freakin scary to fight. ASM's are so damn hard to take down, even with Catachans at times. Catachans are quite vulnerable actually 9as they should be), and take smart tactics to overcome stronger units. I never get tired of seeing masses of guardsmen getting stopped in their tracks by a handful of Tactical Marines & their commander. Considering balance and fluff, I think Retribution is the best representation of any DoW game yet.
One big thing missing from SM's is a melee upgrade for Tacticals, or Veteran Squads. I'd like to see SM's melee prowess emphasized more with an elite melee unit. Perhaps in the next expansion with the Tau!?
Not really any kind of evidence though. all it shows is SM's beating up some orks in melee. Although that Slugga does have a couple SM heads on his pole.Are you on crack? There's even official artwork of Ork boys ducking it out in melee with marine veterans, look:
I do think Gabe is right about SM's being more comparable in strength to a Nob. Look at the new "Space Marine" game, it shows SM's going toe to toe with nobz and wooping their ass in melee. Which is why i'd love to see a Veteran Squad in tier 3 with an assortment of power weapons.
I've lost GK terminators in TT to so many rolls of 1s, you wouldn't believe it. As a matter of fact, I believe I was playing an IG player and charged a group of his puny humans. After my attacks they had about 2 models left... but did one of them manage to roll of a wound? Oh, of course... and what did I roll for my save?Just like how Grey Knights are so valuable that the Imperium would rather blow up an entire planet than send them in and endanger them.
but we aren't comparing this to TT, where anything can kill your terminators if you roll poorly enough. I love my termies in DoW, I can do all kinds of crazy stuff and they won't die.
#347
That's not my point at all. The point is that earlier in the thread you said, and I quote, that the "the general badassery of SM/Elite characters [in the FFG RPGs] is a perfect reference point to balance a video game around." Of course, now that you realize that according to the FFG RPGs a guardsman is 750 xp worth of stat advances away from Space Marine level reflexes, you want to back out of your reliance on the stats of the RPGs. Well I'm sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.And yes, SM agility and speed is definitely higher than humans in the fluff. You said so yourself.
You really really can't take that new Space Marine game as fluff.............I do think Gabe is right about SM's being more comparable in strength to a Nob. Look at the new "Space Marine" game, it shows SM's going toe to toe with nobz and wooping their ass in melee. Which is why i'd love to see a Veteran Squad in tier 3 with an assortment of power weapons.
Especially the main SM you are playing mowing down thousands of orks over the course of the game.......
For all those saying "But if you make SM so good, the game would no longer be balanced..." please realize that he's not talking about the RT beta. In his opinion, its metagame is in such a fluff-unfriendly state, it cannot be fluffied AND balanced.
He's talking about his mod. He's saying that in his mod, he has fashioned the game in such a way that this fluffiness is balanced. This is not to encourage you to stop playing RT and to play his mod. That's your choice. This is to show that it CAN be done.
Yes, and those of us who have played the mod realize that isn't the case. Who knows, maybe it can be done - but there's no evidence to suggest right now that its possible. Even Games Workship, the creator of the IP, has abandoned fluff to focus on balance and other things.
SM right now is fairly well balanced, and its rather odd that you're willing to trust someone who believes SM needs major buffs to correctly balance the game from scratch. Or that WG need to be moved to T3. You're right in that they're not mutually exclusive, but they sure don't inspire confidence. At all. And that's partly why people get so bothered. Regardless of whether he's correct about some things, GG slams the game in one breath, makes wrong assumptions about balance in the next, and then complains about fluff, game mechanics, visuals, and everything else.
Are you really going to trust someone who's telling you that your car is going to be totaled if he just got done killing your cat and pouring apple juice all over your computer?
Last edited by Sabulum; 22nd Feb 11 at 6:50 AM.
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