Close Combat weapons

[Shakrith]

I have always felt that close combat is inaccurately represented in 40k, with the average combat knife being as effective as a chainsword. So, I think that a knife should be stronger than fists, basic swords being better than knives, choppas beating swords, chainswords being maybe a tiny bit better than choppas, a power sword ripping through all it touches, lightning claws being a terrifying thing to see, power fists smashing people for metres and being near-instant kill, and thunder hammers should be thoroughly awe-inspiring.

[Triceron]

Hmm, Hard to say about the tabletop game but since most numbers on the STR tables top out at 10 and with Str5 already being pretty powerful, there isn't a lot of room to crank out specific numbers to compare the power of a combat knife and a chainsword.

In DOW it will most likely be only statistical differences and overall I don't think this is a big deal. Sure powerfists will be deadly powerful and have a slow recoil compared to a choppa or a chain sword, but it doesn't really make that big of a difference in battle unless they actually have some special effect to them. I can definately see power fists launching units in the air for a deathblow or lightning claws stunning vehicles momentarily, but I hope the classic weapons could have some use and value to them other than being cheap to have for your units.

[mr_mich]

I want to see stormhammers shocking people.

[Ragnar_PA83]

I want to see stormhammers shocking people.

Im pretty sure they would be putting dents and gashes in people!!

[Anthonace]

or blowing them apart in a shower of gore

[Ragnar_PA83]

I could see that happening and it putting a smile on my face

[Russian Ninja]

Or knock them high into the air. I think when you're flying you're not going to really worry about being stunned.

[Ragnar_PA83]

Or knock them high into the air. I think when you're flying you're not going to really worry about being stunned.

When ur flying i would be more worried about landing on someones choppa r chainsword unless there is a dreadnought a waiting

[RogueFox]

Smashing an Orkie in the air wiv the hammer :bandit:

Can't wait.

[Asklepios]

I agree with Shakrith here, even the most diverse arsenal feels hollow if there is no difference.

[Elof]

Does thunderhammer and storm sheilds still list as a option for terminators ?

[H.B.M.C.]

Does thunderhammer and storm sheilds still list as a option for terminators ?

You can still get 'em. Thunderhammers are nice, but I1 is never fun.

BYE

[DarthFelth]

you the know, 2nd eds system weapons wise was alot better, i mean a chainsword was better than a knife, a knife was better than a fist (i think) perhaps dow will be more based on 2nd ed

[Shakrith]

I think that the Assault marines really aren't good enough in 40k. STill S4, no armour penetration, the only benefit is their pistol! Also, the way it works in 40k, a kroot with a pair of pointy sticks is as effective in Strength and Attacks terms as an Assault Marine in close combat!

[TS_ahriman]

I wanna see a force weapon make a milkshake out of some random ork...or a bloodthirster.

[Anthonace]

mmmmm daemonic milkshake.... :bandit:
i wonder why a choppa (lump of sharp metal) is better than a chainsword (tons of sharp bades spinning around)

[H.B.M.C.]

I think that the Assault marines really aren't good enough in 40k. STill S4, no armour penetration, the only benefit is their pistol! Also, the way it works in 40k, a kroot with a pair of pointy sticks is as effective in Strength and Attacks terms as an Assault Marine in close combat!

The reasons for this is the fact that the AP system is just to simplistic.

As it stands now, my fist, your knife, a Marines's Chainsword and a Guardsman's heavy bolter have the exact same chance of getting through a Marines armour. Seems kinda odd right?

BYE

[ionfish]

Trouble is, the more complex game dynamics become, the longer it all takes and the more complicated things are to work out. Remember how involved 2nd ed combat was? I suspect any further complication of the current rules might well make things worse than that was.

[ComanderSeagoon]

It might not make it too complicated, for instance the Epic game has gone though this problem before, the 2nd (spacemarine) game was far too complicated nad the 3rd eddition was far to simplistic, but now armeggedon is the best of both worlds, its fast to play like no.3 but has lots of detail like the 2nd.

So why can this not happen to 40,k?

[mr_mich]

Armageddon has REALLY simplified rules for CC, you don't even take specific weapons into account, each squad of units simply has a "close combat" or "firefight" value.

Don't get me wrong, I love it, I think it boosts the speed and overall feel of combats in gameplay, but I'd hardly say it's very detailed.

[ComanderSeagoon]

:P i ment the game as a whole :P

[BiteTheDust]

Gagh...

For 100 dollars: I will tear a mean looking hole in the ranks of anyone, friend or foe.

For 500 dollars: I will kill em all and make house coats out of them fresh hides.

For a 100 bonus: I will killem all and make a house coat out of em in a thong bikini... Gaaaarrr

But seriously folks... give me a power sword and a mean lookin bolt pistol and all heck will be my middle name..

[Elof]

I prefer 2nd edtion over 3rd , personaly once you have played for a while its not that complicated

[H.B.M.C.]

I prefer 2nd edtion over 3rd , personaly once you have played for a while its not that complicated.

I prefer 2nd Ed as well, but it just works better in a smaller scale, which is why I play Necromunda. In 2nd Ed HTH combat was a joke. 3rd Ed HTH combat is also a big stupid, but not as stupid as 2nd Ed HTH. Vehicle rules were certainly more fun in 2nd Ed. Tanks were tanks, not bunkers.

BYE

[Elof]

Emm necromunda there was a game for hth

[No Surrender]

CC is way too powerful in 40k. Think abt it. How could it hurt as much to be bashed on the head with a bolter hurts as much as being shot with a .75 cal HE round?

[Eisenhorn]

mmmmm daemonic milkshake.... :bandit:
i wonder why a choppa (lump of sharp metal) is better than a chainsword (tons of sharp bades spinning around)

Becaus they think it is, and is so in to their belif that the so called lump of metal accualy will caus more damage than if a marine was wielding it.....
thats how ther reality works, the so caled slugga shouldent even work u know that right??? well it does becaus they think it would, why dos red cars move faster than any oter, simpel: one ork mec builds a car so fast u can literaly out run youre own bullets, and by accsident it just hapend to be painted red..... in ork mind this is a simpel question to anser, its faster becaus its red.... and yes, they are seriusly this stupid!!! the thing is they belive it so much red weicels accsualy goes faster!!!
sounds strange i know but aint all orks strange

[Eisenhorn]

CC is way too powerful in 40k. Think abt it. How could it hurt as much to be bashed on the head with a bolter hurts as much as being shot with a .75 cal HE round?

I would say it depends whos at the other side of that bolter.... if a spase marine i would say he shouldent even bother to use the bolter but instead slam a fist of fury in ure face, as a sm is suposed to be like 5 times the strengt of arnold, this is simply not shown in 40k caus its a too big scale but the average sm should (if going basicly on fluff and inquisitor game) have a strength of like 7 or something... yea im not kidding he would turn u to a piese of squably goo in sess than 2 sec, then imagen what he coud do svinging that bolter

[JumpPackBoy!]

Becaus they think it is, and is so in to their belif that the so called lump of metal accualy will caus more damage than if a marine was wielding it.....
thats how ther reality works, the so caled slugga shouldent even work u know that right??? well it does becaus they think it would, why dos red cars move faster than any oter, simpel: one ork mec builds a car so fast u can literaly out run youre own bullets, and by accsident it just hapend to be painted red..... in ork mind this is a simpel question to anser, its faster becaus its red.... and yes, they are seriusly this stupid!!! the thing is they belive it so much red weicels accsualy goes faster!!!
sounds strange i know but aint all orks strange

I dont undertand what you just said.

[Eisenhorn]

No one can realy accualy explain the thing about orks, but it is known that they are all surounded by some sort of psykic (stupid) field, this makes the, so simple, mind of the orks work together in somway thats not fully explenational, but ill try....

if say on ork say "hey my cars faster than ures" and it is, orks can make a so simpel conclusion that it must be becaus its another collor .the poor bastards dont know any better, the thing is that more and more orks start to belive this shit, and whop, all of the sudden all vehicles with that collor goes faster.... in orks cases red!!!

the shota fore exampel, it shouldent work, it has nothing that makes a gun work.... but the ork dont care, for all he knows it should work caus it looks like a gun..... and whopido, all of the suden the gun works.

and now u think, hey, if thay can do that why dont they just do a megafkingblasta gun that kills ewrything??? becaus thats something a ork wouldent bother thinking about

thats why a lone ork cant survive on his own, he needs his buddies around him to work...
take ure worst caotic dream combined with a lot of humor..... and whosh, u hawe an ork..... have the basik instingt that killing is fun, profesional weapontraining and fightingskills from birth, who would take the regular guardsman 10 yers to acomplish...
accses to an arsenal of weapons and vehicle that wouldent even work....... but they dont even bother to ask that question, so it will work only caus they belive it......

get anything im trying to say here???

[GreatSamaman]

It's an interesting (if not very odd) theory you have there Eisenhorn. I would give you my opinion of what you just said, but my brain is still trying to decipher the complete lack of respect for grammar and spelling you have there...some of that looks like it was actually typed that way intentionally...(no offense, but if you actually have trouble with spelling and grammar, please take the mods advice and at least use a spell checker of some kind, like the one in Word)

[H.B.M.C.]

CC is way too powerful in 40k. Think abt it. How could it hurt as much to be bashed on the head with a bolter hurts as much as being shot with a .75 cal HE round?

Ah. As I said, I think, in another thread, that's a problem with the overly-simplistic nature of the AP system, not a problem with HTH combat.

HTH combat was overpowered, with the original rules. The Trial Assault Rules balanced assaults out quite nicley. Unfortunately, the Trial Vehicles Rules made a mockery of them, so now we have assault units that will never make it into assault. Funny how that works...


And Eisenhorn is right about Orks. Things happen because they think they should happen. Codex: Orks details a study by the Ordos Xenos into Orks. They had an example of an Ork shoota that did not actually work, the way it was built meant that it simply could not function as a firearm - pulling the trigger did nothing - yet in the hands of an Ork it worked perfectly as the Ork thought that it should work. It worked because the Ork wanted it to. Ork vehicles that are painted red go faster because the Orks think they should. Orks are a pychic race that emanate a constant psychic field that gets stronger and stronger the more of them there are and the more agressive they get. This field effects their weapons and equipment too.

BYE

[TS_ahriman]

I wonder if orks started dipping grots in red paint, would they run faster?

[H.B.M.C.]

I wonder if orks started dipping grots in red paint, would they run faster?

No, but I'm sure if they told the Grots to puff up their chests and look bigger they'd actually get tougher!

BYE

[Eisenhorn]

I wonder if orks started dipping grots in red paint, would they run faster?

Why, then u have to run around shasing youre dinner all day

One more thin about orks is that they tend to grow bigger and get mor mussels if they fight.
And i dont meen that swinging large chumps of metal wouldent give u more mussels,but thees boyz can grow like 10cm in a regulare days fight.
Thats why there are whole planets consisting of nothing more than nobs and skasrboyz, planets forgoten by ewryone, left to fight eachother. in my teory a squig (for those of u non gw fans a squig looks like a terrebly big lizard) could by all means have once been an ork.....

and yea i know i my spelling is probably the wors on this forum, but i whant u to know that its not intensional, but if u dont understand somethin i have wrote pleas notefy me and i will try to refrase my latest note, okey???

[GreatSamaman]

I didn't mean to rip on you, just try to run it through a spellcheck of some sort, should only take a minute.

I'm not sure how they make weapons work, but I do know that Orks only grow in intelligence and size the more they fight. So the strongest/smartest ones are the ones who have fought the longest, who become the nobs/warbosses/etc...

[Elof]

I think a little tolerance is in order here , english isnt everyones first language and just because you can speak it doesnt mean you have a spell checker in it

As long as its readable and understandable

[Eisenhorn]

Thanks elof, i feel better allready. Yea i admit i cant spell,
so no offens taken.
I also edmit i dont have a spellcheck, and dont know where to get one.....
so youre just have to stand the thaught of crypting trough my replyes Greatsamaman, since i write such intresting things

[Mediocrity]

I wonder if orks started dipping grots in red paint, would they run faster?

They'd become unstoppable! :bandit:

[JumpPackBoy!]

do not post in this thread again --- soul

[Uzgah]

in my teory a squig (for those of u non gw fans a squig looks like a terrebly big lizard) could by all means have once been an ork.

Well to be honest, you're right.
In the really old Fluff about 'Nids it mentioned conflicts between 'Nids and Orks.
The squigs were products of the 'Nids using the Ork biomass to create creatures.
Now Orks being Orks would attack Hive-ships in a general.... erm... foolish manner?
Anyhoo... upon the 'Nid ships they found the Squigs and recongnised something deffinately "orky" about them. They decided to take the Squigs back with them. In the company of the Orks the Squigs were encouraged to reproduce and now they are typically found alongside the Ork Boyz.

[Eisenhorn]

I did not know that, not exacktly how i thaught (who would expect the nids to be the sourse of forgeworlds best model ever ) but it points out that it is orkich.....and nidich...... wierd combo

[ObsceneName]

Squigs arnt nids??? i always thought squigs were baby orcs thye havnt grown to full blown orkdom or a mutation when theyre growing

and eisenhorn i think your looking for a s instead of a c
in orkich i think you mean Orkish and im not burning ya man just trying to help ya

[Cortanus]

Squigs arnt nids??? i always thought squigs were baby orcs thye havnt grown to full blown orkdom or a mutation when theyre growing

and eisenhorn i think your looking for a s instead of a c
in orkich i think you mean Orkish and im not burning ya man just trying to help ya

I thought I read that they grew from some of the spores they shed, sort of a natural, constant food supply...

[Eisenhorn]

Lots of intresting ideas, but ill think i would put my money on uzgha´s theory, first of he claims that its info from the sec edition, and i he has played it since then i think he would know what he is talking about.....

and ObceneName yea, i was meaning ish not ich thanks for telling me, but im not from a english speaking country so i have accually no idea what im writin here, but we have allready taking up the subject on my writing capabiletys higher up in this thread, so if intrested u can allways read that

[Uzgah]

Cortanus, thats probably something to it too. Like i said the 'Nid played about with Ork biomass and made the Squigs. The squigs being from the same genetic stock as Orks, and then we with the eating of the Squigs, means that they might reproduce within the Ork spores. Hence, creating the food supply.
Heheh Orks survive on a constant food supply 'cause of the 'Nids. Odd that, the two most destructive races in the Galaxy and one has to say "Thanks for giving us an un-ending supply of food YAY!"
Never seen it in this light before. Its, kinda, comical. =]

[Shakrith]

Squigs are not Nids, they are a species related to orks which are transported on the ork ships to any orky planet as a food source, as a pet, and as a weapon. But back on topic, what do you all want from CC weapons?

[ObsceneName]

I could careless? its just bleh aslong as its balanced i dont care asking for realism in the universe that has walking robots that ressurect themselves super engineered humans
super engineered mutated humans and more drama then a soap oprea asking for realism is just way out there man

[Eisenhorn]

Shakrith, i think u missunderstod us , we did not say the squig was a nid, only that it has some old ime fluf back in the older editions that it may have been with the nids help it was created.... its not less of an ork fore that...

back on thopic. i would realy like to se how they have delth with the sitiuation of the simple fact that orks have 2 attacs...... i mean a caracter has probably to more than one a. but this is in gameplay probably represented by him svinging his hammer faster.... but a ork is supposed to be slow in mind (low i.) but hit ewrything around him (represented by 2a)as he has no strict rules to follow........
i pretty sure im going to be a bit disseponted anyhow they find a way of making it work, but all we ork players can allways hope they gone more on the fluff than the accsual game, that meens a ork is not going to be far from a sm in stats.....

[Maximus Decimus]

Eisenhorn: the game is going fluffwise as the devs have mentioned numerous times but I disagree that 1 ork can match 1 SM. Fluffwise a SM can take on a ork but 2 orks may be a problem.

Anyway I wouldnt really care if you had a chainsword be stronger than a knife in this game as long as a power weapon is stronger than both.