Retail Patch Beta General Discussion

[Celution]

Okay, so as Geoff mentioned in his last post here, this is going to be a thread for the general patch notes only. If you see a patch change, and you want to discuss how it might affect the gameplay or balance, make a post in the CoH, OF and ToV Balance Issues section. Give the thread this tag: [Beta Patch], to avoid confusion about which game version we discuss about. When you make such a thread, add as much details of the issue as you can, because that will surely increase the discussing value.

I will update this Opening Post with links to the open discussions in that section about the Beta Patch.

PIAT Disussion thread


So the rules for this thread are quite simple:

1. No Flaming/Insulting.
2. No expanding discussions about 1 change, if you see that this happens, make a new thread in the Balance Issues forum yourself, or use the report button to call in a moderator.
3. Don't build up your opinion with non CoH-related arguments. (meaning no "but in WW2 they did not ...".
4. Don't bring back the changes in previous patches like "But I remember back in vx.xxx that ..."; give specific information.
5. Keep the discussion in this thread to general, compare changes here and so, but otherwise refer to #2.

Here are the full patch notes so far:

Bugs

• Units no longer continue to crawl after recovering from Suppression
• Chance for a kill critical on vehicles is now properly being updated when they've received other non-kill criticals (5% bug)
• Unbuilt Tank Traps cannot be repeatedly spawned around enemy vehicles
• All vehicles now properly have vehicle cover
• Registered Artillery can no longer target field defenses
• M18 Hellcat can now be detected
• Goliath can now be detected
• Recon Squads can now detect camouflage while moving
• Teller Mines no longer have a chance to miss vehicles in vehicle cover
• The Hotchkiss now properly shares experience with other PE units
• ATHT's using Focus Fire now have intended accuracy vs moving British infantry
• Hetzer Veterancy requirements reduced to standard
• M10 Veterancy requirements increased to standard
• Panzer IV Stubby now prioritizes light vehicles over infantry
• StuH now prioritizes infantry over vehicles
• PE Panzerschrecks no longer do higher damage once picked up
• G-Wagon wrecks can now be salvaged for Munitions
• Luftwaffe reinforce time reduced to standard
• Paks and Nebelwerfers can now use Medkits
• AT Grenades now collide with enemy vehicles
• Hetzer and Jagdpanther CP reward increased to standard
• Panther Battlegroups are much less likely to fail to spawn the second Panther
• Medics no longer detect camouflage
• Snipers and weapon teams can now pick up Supply Drops
• Tank Traps can no longer be placed so close together that they block infantry
• 105mm Howitzers are now re-crewed with 3 squad members
• Removed the chance for the Pak38 support members to one-hit kill infantry
• Bombing Run no longer does double damage to Vet 3 StuGs
• M10 no longer has increased accuracy vs skirted PIVs
• Wehr Officer 81mm Mortar Bombardment can no longer be interrupted to produce false smoke
• Panther Battle Groups and OMCGs will not refund their cost if partially called in on an unfinished building
• AT Guns no longer avoid their reload time by resetting the gun after a shot
• Panthers now properly benefit from Tank Destroyer's APCR upgrade
• Nebelwerfer rockets no longer have a chance to instantly kill all occupants of a building
• Sappers with the Demolitions & Disposal upgrade are no longer negatively affected by the Lieutenants movement aura
• Kettenkrad no longer moves out of the way of other moving vehicles
• Kettenkrad can now be hit by rolled misses
• Burst bug effects reduced on Pumas, Armoured Cars, and Ostwinds
• Units camouflaging after leaving a building are no longer visible for much longer than intended
• Allied Medics are now selectable
• Speech files for PE Defensive Operations, PE Field Craft, PE Panther Battlegroup, WM Phase Upgrades, and WM Veterancy Upgrades fixed
• Engineer Demo Charges can now be targeted and destroyed
• Rangers no longer drop Bazookas more frequently than intended
• Units throwing sticky bombs will no longer occasionally become unresponsive
• Wehr Pioneer call-in ability now properly requires only a destroyed HQ and no living Pioneers
• Improved the consistency of Propaganda and Force Retreat
• Scout and Armoured Cars are no longer highly resistant to damaged engines from Mines
• Scout and Armoured Cars at high health are no longer highly susceptible to immobilization from Stickies
• Scout and Armoured Cars at medium health are no longer highly resistant to damaged engines from Stickies
• Kettenkrads can now repair Scorched Points like the Schwimmwagen
• PE light Halftrack pathfinding improved; far more likely to reverse rather than turn around
• M10s and M18s are now revealed on the mini-map by Tank Awareness

General

Medics

• Health reduced from 120 to 60

Snipers

• Accuracy and Damage vs garrisoned units increased from 75% to 100%
• Sniper auto-cover distance reduced

Flamethrowers

• Damage vs units in open cover reduced from 1.0x to 0.85x
• Damage vs units in negative cover reduced from 1.0x to 0.75x
• Damage vs Soldier Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.95x
• Damage vs buildings increased from 0.5x to 0.6x
• Infantry Flamethrower max damage reduced from 40 to 30, min damage increased from 15 to 25
• Sherman and Churchill Flamethrower max damage reduced from 40 to 35, min damage increased from 20 to 30
• Halftrack Flamethrower max damage increased from 30 to 35, min damage increased from 10 to 30

Grenades

• No longer scatter

Abilities

• Weapon using Abilities can no longer be used while Pinned

Base Buildings

• All base buildings can now reinforce

Off-Map Artillery

• Damage against Paks and ATGs reduced from 2.0x to 1.33x

American

Engineers

• Suppression threshold increased to match other infantry
• Suppression recovery threshold increased to match other infantry
• Upgrading with a Flamethrower increases Received Suppresion by 50%

60mm Mortar

• Barrage scatter angle reduced from 15 to 10
• Set-up time reduced from 2.4s to 1.5s
• Pack-up time reduced from 2.8s to 1.9s

.30 Cal HMG

• Pack-up time reduced from 2.5s to 2.1s
• Ready aim time reduced from 0.3s to 0.1s

57mm Anti-Tank Gun

• Reinforcement cost reduced from 71 to 26
• Accuracy vs Anti-Tank guns reduced from 0.5x to 0.1x
• Accuracy vs Infantry reduced from 0.15x to 0.05x
• Accuracy vs Snipers reduced from 0.15x to 0.02x
• Targeting priority vs Snipers reduced from 10 to 5
• Weapon health increased from 300 to 390

Sherman Crocodile

• Range increased from 20 to 25
• Vet 2 1.5x Penetration bonus replaced with a 0.8x Cooldown bonus

M18 Hellcat

• Speed increased from 6.0 to 7.2
• Acceleration increased from 1.5 to 2.0, Deceleration increased from 3.8 to 4.4
• Vet 2 bonus is now 1.5x Penetration rather than +1.25 Range
• Hellcat penetration at short range increased from .65x to .75x, medium range from 0.55x to 0.69x, and long range from 0.4x to 0.63x
• Target table now identical to the M10's
• Damage bonus from camouflage reduced from 2.0x to 1.5x
• Penetration bonus from camouflage reduced from 5.0x to 1.5x

M26 Pershing

• Cost reduced from 900 Manpower to 800 Manpower

Off-Map Combat Group

• M8s and Hellcats now spawn with their upgrades
• Population requirement increased from 12 to 15

Jeep

• Received Accuracy from the Pak reduced from 1.0x to 0.75x
• Received Accuracy modifier from the Pak while moving reduced from 0.75x to 0.5x
• Received Damage from the 57mm ATG reduced from 1.0x to 0.5x

Strafing Run

• Significant changes to make Strafe more effective against groups of units and less effective against single units

Sticky Bombs

• Deflection Damage enabled, set to 50%
• Accuracy increased to prevent thrown Stickies from missing their intended target

Riflemen

• Received XP bonus from BARs and Stickies reduced from 5% to 0%
• Received XP bonus from Supply Yard 2 increased from 20% to 30%

T17 Armoured Car

• Cooldown lowered from 2-2.5 to 0
• Reload increased from 1 to 3.5
• Health increased from 175 to 265
• Vet 1 Health bonus reduced from +175 to +50
• Fixed an issue where the T17 had a harder time penetrating the rear armour of some vehicles
• Fixed an issue where the T17 would fail to penetrate Snipers

Wehrmacht

Kampfkraft Center

• Now requires a built base structure or a FHQ

50mm Pak 38

• Number of camouflage shots reduced from 3 to 1
• Cost reduced from 310 Manpower to 290 Manpower
• Reinforcement cost reduced from 57 to 23
• Accuracy vs Anti-Tank Guns reduced from 0.5x to 0.1x
• Accuracy vs Sherman Armour increased from 1.0x to 1.1x
• Accuracy vs Cromwell Armour increased from 0.8x to 1.0x
• Accuracy vs Pershing Armour increased from 1.08x to 1.15x
• Accuracy vs Infantry reduced from 0.15x to 0.05x
• Accuracy vs Snipers reduced from 0.15x to 0.02x
• Targeting priority vs Snipers reduced from 10 to 5
• Weapon health increased from 300 to 390

Panzerschreck

• Accuracy vs M8 Greyhound Armour increased from 0.73x to 0.85x
• Accuracy vs M3 Halftrack Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.85x
• Accuracy vs Stuart Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.85x
• Damage vs Stuart Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.7x

88mm Flak 36

• Accuracy vs Infantry reduced from 0.5x to 0.15x
• Accuracy vs Snipers reduced from 0.25x to 0.05x
• Targeting priority vs Snipers reduced from 10 to 5

Puma

• Received Accuracy bonuses while moving from Vet removed
• Vet 2 Sight Range bonus increased from +4 to +10

Officer

• Build Time reduced from 45s to 25s

StuG IV

• Acceleration increased from 1.7 to 2.5, Deceleration increased from 2.0 to 3.0

Geschützwagen

• Damage lowered from 250 to 185
• Tracking speed increased from 10 to 20
• Tracking arc increased from 38 degrees to 44 degrees
• MG Gunner now requires Vet 2
• Vet 3 bonus reduced from 0.5x Reload to 0.75x Reload
• Accuracy vs Anti-Tank Guns reduced from 0.65x to 0.2x

Nebelwerfer

• AoE Reduced from 18 to 13.5

StuH

• CP cost lowered from 3 to 2
• Cost lowered from 600 Manpower to 500 Manpower

Tiger

• CP cost increased from 4 to 5
• Cost lowered from 900 Manpower to 800 Manpower

Assault Grenades

• Maximum damage lowered from 35 to 25, minimum damage lowered from 25 to 10
• Low health kill critical chance increased from 0% to 30%

Knights Cross Holders

• Now passively regenerate 21.12 Health per Minute
• Received Damage from BARs, Brens, and Thompsons reduced from 0.85x to 0.78x

Firestorm

• Damage vs 105mm Howitzers reduced from 1.0x to 0.35x

Medkits

• Cost reduced from 35 Munitions to 30 Munitions

Goliaths

• Goliaths can no longer be Buttoned
• Goliath rotation speed increased from 45 to 65

280mm Rocket Barrage

• Long AoE increment damage increased from 0.1x to 0.2x
• AoE accuracy increased to 100%

Panzerfaust

• Damage vs Bren Carriers increased from 1.3x to 1.45x
• Accuracy increased from 100% to 200% at all ranges
• Accuracy vs infantry halved

Blitzkrieg

• Cost reduced from 150 Munitions to 125 Munitions

Manpower Blitz

• Cost reduced from 200 Munitions to 175 Munitions

MG42

• Cost reduced from 260 Manpower to 250 Manpower
• Build time reduced from 40s to 35s
• Pack-up time reduced from 2.5s to 2.1s
• Weapon health increased from 300 to 390

Halftrack

• Received Accuracy bonuses while moving from Vet removed

Motorcycle

• Received Accuracy bonuses while moving from Vet removed

Schwimmwagen

• Received Accuracy bonuses while moving from Vet removed
• Cost reduced from 240 Manpower to 225 Manpower
• Build time reduced from 45s to 40s

Volksgrenadiers

• Reinforce percentage reduced from 0.5x to 0.4x
• Capture speed increased from 1.0x to 1.25x upon reaching Skirmish Phase

Light MG42

• Drop chance reduced from 60% to 30%
• Long Range Accuracy increased from 0.1x to 0.13x

Commonwealth

Kangaroo

• Cost increased from 240/10 to 300/45
• Health reduced from 650 to 550
• Speed reduced from 6.5 to 5.85
• Build time increased from 35s to 45s

Staghound

• Staghound moving accuracy modifier increased from 0.5x to 0.75x
• Damage vs sdkfz 251 Halftrack and sdkfz 22x Light Armoured Car Armour reduced from 2.0x to 1.0x
• Accuracy vs Snipers increased from 0.5x to 0.75x
• .50 Cal Damage vs Infantry Armour reduced from 1.75x to 1.5x
• .50 Cal Damage vs Airborne Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.75x
• .50 Cal Damage vs Heroic Armour reduced from 0.85x to 0.75x
• .50 Cal Damage vs Sniper Armour reduced from 1.5x to 1.0x
• .50 Cal Damage vs Soldier Armour reduced from 1.5x to 1.0x
• .50 Cal Accuracy vs Elite Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.75x
• .50 Cal Accuracy vs Soldier Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.75x

Forward Observation Officers

• Delay increased from 2s to 2.75s

Stuart

• Stuart moving accuracy modifier increased from 0.5x to 0.75x
• Stuart Reload time reduced from 5-6.5s to 4-5.5s
• Stuart accuracy vs Infantry increased from 0.5x to 0.75x
• Damage vs sdkfz 251 Halftrack and sdkfz 22x Light Armoured Car Armour reduced from 2.0x to 1.0x

Sappers

• Now have the Wirecutters ability

17 Pounder

• Health increased from 400 to 450
• Accuracy vs Anti-Tank Guns reduced from 0.5x to 0.1x
• Accuracy vs Infantry reduced from 0.15x to 0.05x
• Accuracy vs Snipers reduced from 0.15x to 0.02x
• Targeting priority vs Snipers reduced from 10 to 5

Lieutenant

• Now receive a 0.85x Received Damage modifier at Vet 1
• Vet 2 Received Accuracy modifier increased from 0.9x to 0.75x
• Now receive a 0.75x Received Accuracy modifier at Vet 3
• Lieutenants' aura's stackable damage modifier at veterancy level 1 has been reduced from 1.125 to 1.04
• Lieutenants' aura's non-stackable damage modifier at veterancy level 1 has been increased from 1.025 to 1.11
• Lieutenants' aura's stackable damage modifier at veterancy level 2 has been increased from 1.025 to 1.065
• Lieutenant's aura radius increased from 25 to 30

PIAT

• Penetration modifier at short and medium range reduced from 2.0x to 1.0x
• Reload modifier at long range reduced from 1.6x to 1.2x
• Projectile speed increased from 10 to 15
• Penetration vs skirted Panthers reduced from .15 to .112
• Penetration vs skirted PIV reduced from .449 to .337
• Penetration vs skirted StuG reduced from .332 to .249
• Damage vs Infantry Armour reduced from 0.5x to 0.33x
• Damage vs Heroic Armour reduced from 0.5x to 0.33x
• Damage vs Elite Armour reduced from 0.5x to 0.2x
• Damage vs Sniper Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.2x
• Damage vs Soldier Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.33x

Mortar Pit

• Build Time reduced from 90s to 60s
• Received Damage while under construction increased from 0.5x to 0.75x
• Damage reduced from 20 to 18
• Supercharge range reduced from 100 to 90

Recon Section

• Recon Sections can no longer build Trenches

Churchills

• Churchill and AVRE Population lowered from 14 to 8
• Churchill Crocodile Population lowered from 16 to 10
• Churchill 6 Pounder gun AoE distance increased from 0.1/0.25/0.5 to 0.15/0.5/1.0

Bofors

• Build time reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds

Bren Carrier

• Self-Repair ability is disabled while the Carrier is garrisoned
• Garrison disabled while Self-Repair is active

Commandos

• Demo Charges are now revealed by Minesweepers rather than Camouflage Detectors

Tetrarch

• Tetrarch moving accuracy modifier increased from 0.5x to 0.75x
• Tetrarch accuracy vs Infantry increased from 0.5x to 0.75x

Panzer Elite

Panzer-Jager Kommand

• Build time increased from 115 to 135

Gewehr 43

• Maximum Cooldown reduced from 1.8 to 1.65, minimum Cooldown reduced from 1.25 to 1.15
• Suppressive Volley Fire now Suppresses the target
• Suppressive Volley Fire slow duration reduced from 20s to 5s

Kettenkrad

• Sight Range increased from 35 to 55

Schwimmwagen

• Sight Range increased from 35 to 55
• Mark Target cooldown increased from 10 seconds to 45 seconds
• Mark Target Munitions cost increased from 0 to 15
• Incendiary Trap detonation radius increased
• Incendiary Trap DoT damage vs Soldier Armour increased from 1.0x to 1.25x

Infantry Halftrack

• Damage vs Light Cover increased from 0.75x to 0.8x

Panzerschreck

• Accuracy vs M8 Greyhound Armour increased from 0.73x to 0.85x
• Accuracy vs M3 Halftrack Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.85x
• Accuracy vs Stuart Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.85x
• Damage vs Stuart Armour reduced from 1.0x to 0.7x
• Target table now matches WM Panzerschreck (Damage increase against OPs, CW HQs, and CW Mortar Pits and 25 Pounders)

Scout Car

• Detection radius increased from 9 to 18

Vampire Halftrack

• Divert Supplies now camouflages the Vampire while active
• Population reduced from 4 to 2

Munitions Halftrack

• Cost reduced from 200/15 to 200
• Population reduced from 4 to 2

Armoured Car

• Detection radius lowered from 9 to 0
• Accuracy vs garrisoned units increased from 0.4x to 0.45x
• Vet 2 and Vet 3 increase Health by 20 each
• Build time increased from 45 to 55
• Overdrive hotkey changed from O to V

Marder III

• Sight Main Gun LoS bonus increased from +5 to +10
• Tracking speed increased from 10 to 20
• Tracking arc increased from 38 degrees to 44 degrees
• Accuracy vs Anti-Tank Guns reduced from 0.65x to 0.2x
• Population reduced from 8 to 5

Anti-Tank Halftrack

• Accuracy vs M8 Greyhound Armour increased from 1.0x to 1.05x
• Treadbreaker cost increased from 40 Munitions to 50 Munitions
• Population reduced from 6 to 4

Hotchkiss

• 37mm moving accuracy modifier increased from 0.5x to 0.75x
• 37mm accuracy vs Infantry increased from 0.5x to 0.6x
• Stuka upgrade cost reduced from 150 Munitions to 100 Munitions
• Stuka Barrage cooldown reduced by 10 seconds per Vet level

Bergetiger

• Population reduced from 10 to 8

Hummel

• Population reduced from 12 to 10

Base-Sector Flakvierlings

• Population reduced from 3 to 0

Incendiary Grenades

• Hotkey changed from Y to N

Maps

2p Langres

• Various visual improvements
• Gap opened in hedgerow along the Northern call-in point
• Stone wall overlooking the Northern base replaced with a wooden fence
• Strategic point to the northwest of the Southern base moved further northwest
• Low fuel point to the west of the Southern base moved further west

2p Flooded Plains

• Territory Sectors completely redrawn
• Amount of water throughout the map reduced
• Land area increased on the High fuel points

2p Beaux Lowlands

• The central bridge is now indestructible

2p Wrecked Train

• Various visual improvements
• Negative cover areas touched up and reduced
• Vehicle pathfinding through the center area improved
• Fixed an issue where train cars would stop providing cover
• Fixed several issues where direct line of sight was being blocked unintentionally

2p Sturzdorf

• Southern Strat point outside the large building replaced with a +10 Munitions point
• New +10 Munitions sector disconnected from HQ
• Northeastern +10 Munitions replaced with a Strat point
• Northwestern +16 Munitions switched with Northeastern +16 Munitions
• New Northeastern +16 Munitions point moved towards the center of the map
• Northwestern Strat point removed
• Western +10 Fuel sector lengthened to connect with Southern Strat point
• Western +10 Fuel point moved slightly South
• +5 Munitions outside the Northern base moved out of MG range
• +5 Fuel outside the Southern base moved out of MG range
• Southern HQ rotated to face the middle of the map

2p Ruins of Rouen

• Territory Sectors completely redrawn
• Fence in the Northwest corner extended to the maps edge

4p Duclair

• Various visual improvements
• Hedgerow to the right of the middle VP removed

4p Pointe du Hoc

• Salvageable wrecks removed
• Southern bunkers replaced with bunkers with firing slots only opening onto the beach
• Far Eastern +5 Munitions point removed
• Hedgerow and Fence extended to limit undefended access to Northern bases
• Fence opened to allow easier access out of the Western base

4p McGechean's War

• Several openings made in hedgerows around the map
• Switched Western +10 Munitions with Center +5 Munitions
• +5 Munitions outside the Southern base moved out of MG range

4p Lorraine

• Several paths opened around the Western bases
• Cover around the middle Western base exit reduced or made one-directional
• Northwestern +10 Munitions switched with Northwestern +5 Munitions
• New +5 Munitions replaced with a +5 Fuel
• Southeastern +5 Munitions replaced with a +5 Fuel
• Westcenter +10 Munitions sector redrawn to extend less to the East

4p Rails & Metal

• Several paths opened in the Southcenter and East
• Southeastern HQ rotated to face the middle of the map

2p Carpiquet

• Added to the game

2p Egletons

• Added to the game

2p Duclair

• Added to the game

4p Alsace Moselle

• Added to the game

6p Refinery

• Added to the game

6p Steel Pact

• Added to the game

[PrivateNoHope]

Thanks Celestial,
I played around with the american Staghound after the most recent changes and it performs quit differently, it has a more consistant fire rate rather than the 2 burst shots. It still does extremely minimal damage when rear armour hitting a puma and stug which I thought the bug fix may have improved. Overall I think it performs slightly worse offensivly because it is fairly inaccurate, previously you could drive into range, fire 2 shot burst (with one shot usually hitting) then kite. Now this doesnt work very well because the first shot seems to miss most of the time and the second shot occurs 3.5 seconds later. I think it was a good experiment though as the T17 needs a small buff. The initial HP buff will help this unit a lot and the trade off of overall HP after vet being less is worth it.

[Zallis]

I actually prefer the old t17 - high risk high reward. Differentiates it from the greyhound. It's possible it was a bit too easy to lose, but now it just seems like a greyhound without mines. It has more synergistic value with the american army as a whole because of the stun round, but it still seems like a glorified greyhound to me.

The marder also seems to have an easier time tracking targets now. It can actually score a hit when shooting at targets moving perpedicular to the direction it's facing, but is still very vulnerable to circle strafe. A good change, though it seems to miss the mark as far as problems with the marder go. I've had far more trouble from AT guns killing my marders than stuff circle strafing them.

[Celution]

Well the T17 in v2.601 is pretty overpowered against infantry, sniping with every shot, though it would get one-shotted by a pak. What needed to be changed is lowering the accuracy against infantry and a giving the Sandbags as an upgrade, not as vet 1. This is also how it was planned before ToV was released, since the upgrade excist with icons included.

Though, Reward Units shouldn't be too much alike if you ask me. You get some and loose some.

[bob]

I just do not know why the armoured car has been given a buff, is not difficult to micro, you can get one out fast even when your on the back foot and they mince infantry. Is relic really fixing units or is it the same old case of switching the current OP unit to something else.

[Celution]

Updated the First post. The Armored Car first got a health buff from 220 to 260, then later it was reverted again from 260 to 220. The only changes to the Armored Car is that it gains small health buffs at vet 2 and 3, meaning that at vet 3 it has 260. Plus that the Detection radius has been removed from the Armored Car.

[Q77]

I still dont see the (now) mysterious Geschutswagen increased buildtime in the notes, kinda confuzzling wether they kept this change or reverted it.
Other than that, I havent played the Beta for 4-5 weeks now :-s Damn social life.

[PrivateNoHope]

Q77, I think there have been some bugs or unintentional effects in some of these patches that hasnt been reported by Relic and some of these are fixed now.
Also I have noticed (or at least it seems) some other changes.
Riflemen seem to kill non vet Pios faster now, Ameri AT gun hits Puma more often, T17 does less damage per shot to Puma, bunkers and buildings, Stug has penetration buff vs ameri Sherman.
I recall reading on the Relic forum that the phase effect was removed from the Puma but its not in the Relic patch notes.

[katzenkrimis]

Nice to see the Hotchkiss getting something. Anything.

It desperately needed attention.

It's probably still not enough to get people interested, though.

I haven't tested out the new changes, but cheaper, faster, and more accurate can't be a bad thing when it comes to the Hotchkiss.

We'll take anything we can get.

[Perica83]

When they plan to relese this patch?

[GeoffS]

When it's ready.

[Dymo]

Late to the Party but Damn am I excited about this. I feel a cough coming on already and may be forced to leave work early. Looks good but a hands on Test will be best. I will be Online so get ready lads.

[jodidomatador]

I don't know if this is the right place for suggestions but it would be nice to increase the balance of montargis map decreasing the value for ammo in the hill where 2 points are high (on my opinion the 3 points should be low instead of 2 high and 1 low) making almost unstoppable american tank doctrine when allies control the high ammo resources in the hill. On the other hand if axis has controlled hilll the game end up with multiple firestorm every 5 minutes.
I also find abusive the mortars spam of brits in the scheldt where they are able to mortar 4 HQ axis and destroy it within 10 minutes in game making the game boring and predictable.

uppps just read brits mortar building time reduce by 30 seconds!!! so not more games in scheldt vs brits lol I hope the decrease range stop them at least reaching 4 HQ

[German Steel!]

My opinion for now is that Brits are as useless in 1v1 as ever. Haven't tested more really, but that's by far the most broken thing in the game right now.

... Feels good to be posting on Relicnews again

[Celution]

Welcome back, Steel.

[Susurrus]

Has anything been done about the territories on Sturzdorf?I absolutely love the map, but the munitions distribution is screwed.

[Celution]

Yes.

[Q77]

Has anything been done about the territories on Sturzdorf?I absolutely love the map, but the munitions distribution is screwed.

2p Langres

* Various visual improvements
* Gap opened in hedgerow along the Northern call-in point
* Stone wall overlooking the Northern base replaced with a wooden fence
* Strategic point to the northwest of the Southern base moved further northwest
* Low fuel point to the west of the Southern base moved further west

2p Flooded Plains

* Territory Sectors completely redrawn
* Amount of water throughout the map reduced
* Land area increased on the High fuel points

2p Beaux Lowlands

* The central bridge is now indestructible

2p Wrecked Train

* Various visual improvements
* Negative cover areas touched up and reduced
* Vehicle pathfinding through the center area improved
* Fixed an issue where train cars would stop providing cover
* Fixed several issues where direct line of sight was being blocked unintentionally

2p Sturzdorf

* Southern Strat point outside the large building replaced with a +10 Munitions point
* New +10 Munitions sector disconnected from HQ
* Northeastern +10 Munitions replaced with a Strat point
* Northwestern +16 Munitions switched with Northeastern +16 Munitions
* New Northeastern +16 Munitions point moved towards the center of the map
* Northwestern Strat point removed
* Western +10 Fuel sector lengthened to connect with Southern Strat point
* Western +10 Fuel point moved slightly South
* +5 Munitions outside the Northern base moved out of MG range
* +5 Fuel outside the Southern base moved out of MG range
* Southern HQ rotated to face the middle of the map

4p Duclair

* Various visual improvements
* Hedgerow to the right of the middle VP removed

4p Pointe du Hoc

* Salvageable wrecks removed
* Southern bunkers replaced with bunkers with firing slots only opening onto the beach
* Far Eastern +5 Munitions point removed
* Hedgerow and Fence extended to limit undefended access to Northern bases
* Fence opened to allow easier access out of the Western base

4p McGechean's War

* Several openings made in hedgerows around the map
* Switched Western +10 Munitions with Center +5 Munitions
* +5 Munitions outside the Southern base moved out of MG range

4p Lorraine

* Several paths opened around the Western bases
* Cover around the middle Western base exit reduced or made one-directional
* Northwestern +10 Munitions switched with Northwestern +5 Munitions
* New +5 Munitions replaced with a +5 Fuel
* Southeastern +5 Munitions replaced with a +5 Fuel
* Westcenter +10 Munitions sector redrawn to extend less to the East

4p Rails & Metal

* Several paths opened in the Southcenter and East
* Southeastern HQ rotated to face the middle of the map

2p Carpiquet

* Added to the game

2p Egletons

* Added to the game

2p Duclair

* Added to the game

4p Alsace Moselle

* Added to the game

6p Refinery

* Added to the game

6p Steel Pact

* Added to the game

[armen]

random question 4 u guys, when activating the retail beta with my coh key will i be able to keep COH on steam? or will it close the beta and my game from steam permanantly?

I only ask because i use steam for most my games, and before this beta release I had the retail version of the cds with out steam, and would like to organize all my games thru steam :P

[Susurrus]

Thanks Q77, that's a great list regarding the maps - extremely helpful (and rather hopeful, too, for the state of the game post balance patch..). I found myself nodding along at most of the changes, which is always a good thing.

[Dymo]

random question 4 u guys, when activating the retail beta with my coh key will i be able to keep COH on steam? or will it close the beta and my game from steam permanantly?

I only ask because i use steam for most my games, and before this beta release I had the retail version of the cds with out steam, and would like to organize all my games thru steam :P

With CoH for Sale on Steam now, it seems reasonable you could keep or re-register your CoH game with steam and run it from there.

[Celution]

New update:

Maps
The following community maps have been added to the map pool: (2p) Egletons, (2p) Duclair, (4) Alsace Moselle
The following maps have received balance changes: (2p) Beaux Lowlands, (2p) Flooded Plains, (2p) Ruins of Rouen, (2p) Sturzdorf, (2p) Wrecked Train, (4p) Duclair, (4p) McGechaen's War, (4p) Point Du Hoc, (4p) Rails and Metal

General
Engineers and Pioneers upgraded with flamethrowers received suppression modifier increased from 1 to 1.5
Fixed an issue where snipers would not be able to re-enter camouflage after exiting a building for a longer duration than intended
The "Burst Fire" bug has had its effects lessened on the Ostwind, Puma, and PE Armored Car
Wehrmacht speech files have been returned to HQ and Veterancy upgrades
Snipers will no longer seek cover before shooting

American
Allied Off Map Artillery's damage vs the 57mm_anti-tank_gun target type has been reduced from 2.0 to 1.33
Fixed an issue where American medics would not be selectable
Demolition Charges planted by Allied Engineers can now be targeted by weapons
American HMG's ready aim time decreased from .3 to .1
Fixed an issue where Ranger bazookas would drop with much greater frequency than other slot items

British
Mortar Pit barrage ability cooldown reverted from 35s to 30s
Mortar Pit range reverted from 65m to 75m
Mortar Pits under construction received damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.75
Mortar Pit damage reduced from 20 to 18
Mortar Pit SuperCharged range decreased from 100m to 90m
Bren Carriers may no longer be garrisoned while using Self-Repair

Wehrmacht
Fixed an issue where Pioneers Call-In ability would not appear when a player had no pioneers and a destroyed HQ
Fixed an issue where Forced Retreat would sometimes not trigger on regular infantry
Puma level 2 veterancy sight range bonus increased from 4m to 10m
Fixed an issue where Registered Artillery could be refunded after use
Pak38 accuracy vs Shermans increased from 1.0 to 1.1
Pak38 accuracy vs Cromwells and Kangaroos increased from 0.8 to 1.0
Pak 38 accuracy vs Pershing increased from 1.08 to 1.15

Panzer Elite
Kettenkrads will no longer automatically get out of the way of other moving vehicles
Fixed an issue where PE Armored Cars were unintentionally resistant to engine damage from mines
Fixed an issue where dropped PE Panzerschrecks could not be picked up
PanzerGrenadier's Incendiary Grenade hotkey changed from Y to N
PE Armored Car's Overdrive hotkey changed from O to V
Fixed an issue where the PE Schwimmwagen's Incendiary Trap would not trigger within its intended radius
PE speech files have been returned to some upgrades and call-ins
PE Schwimmwagen's Incendiary Trap's damage over time vs tp_infantry_soldier increased from 1.0 to 1.25
PE Halftracks have received an improvement to their ability to pathfind
Fixed an issue where Kettenkrads would not be able to repair capture points affected by Scorched Earth

[Zallis]

Most of these changes are great, but again there are some that make me scratch my head. The pak accuracy buff against pershings, for example. The sherman one, I'm somewhat iffy about, and I actually dislike the cromwell one, but recognize its need given that roos use the same target type. The american medic thing is kind of amusing - have you ever said to yourself "If only I had been able to select that medic and stare at his picture I could have won the game!"
I realize that it's part of polishing the game, considering you can select other medics.

I like the pio/engi flamethrower recevied suppression thing - cuts down on flamer pio/engineer spam, though I have a slgith feeling it may be excessive, given that the whole point of the upgrade is to make them assault units. I also forsee some hilarious issues when combined with elite armour, since that receives more suppression from HMGs (which are your primary suppressing weapons anyways).

[Steve6972]

Im glad they fixed the PE and Werh speech files finally, i never thought they would!

[Rummy]

Is there any hope of getting more 4v4 maps? my clan is getting pretty sick and tired of the same handful of maps over and over again. There are a lot of great 4v4 custom maps out there, and I cant see why they're not added so that everyone can get in and join

[BlackOmne]

Q77 thanks for the map notes.

But, I'm surprised they haven't fixed one of the most glaring map imbalances - the munition point imbalance between the two sides on Hill 331.

And I thought the central bridge in Beaux Lowlands has been indestructible for some time (prior to 2.601 even).

EDIT:
I also wish they had made some changes to the following OF-introduced maps, which have too few bridges/exits out of their base areas:
Best (there should be at least 2 vehicle worthy exits out of the bases)
Hinderham (needs more land less water especially around bases)
Bedum (either use a larger portion of the original campaign map (and move the bases) or more base area exits for a 2v2 map - Semois has just as many and its 1v1)
Hochwald Gap (for a 4v4 map there should be at least 3 vehicle worthy exits from the bases, not a ridiculous ONE)

[TsaosChicken]

You're right Black Omne, the center bridge has been that way for quite some time. What I'd really like to know is why are they making balance changes without fixing all the broken items first, like the M10 burp, PAra phase, burst , etc, etc, etc.

How can you balance a game that has broken items to start? It's like trying to fix a car engine that doesn't start without checking for bad fuel. Totally stupid way of proceeding IMO.

[darivo]

British
Mortar Pit barrage ability cooldown reverted from 35s to 30s
Mortar Pit range reverted from 65m to 75m

terrible

continue the Brit's mortar spam....

[Susurrus]

I'm pretty sure I've seen patch notes that suggest they've fixed most of those bugs, actually. I've definitely seen something about phase, and about reduction of burst bug (I have a feeling about m10 too, but not so sure on that), and a number of others (the damn snipers seeking cover thing is big).

@ Zallis: Not being able to see US medic health is not a huge problem, but it is a problem. It's impossible to tell how much health they've got left, so often I end up firing at a medic my men have no chance of killing - revealing position, wasting time, etc. The US medics are damn hard to kill with volks, and whilst rifles usually end up with BARs (or close range shooting, which is fast and downs medics quick), volks are not nearly as efficient. Knowing how much damage I'm doing, whether I can kill it etc would be helpful.

I'm glad the speech files are back, can't wait for this to go live..

[Dymo]

Weird question? Did anyone else get a 4GB update for CoH last night? I played Tuesday night and Nada, then last night fired it up and BOOM 5 hours later.... Is that the FINAL Patch and when can we get away from Steam and back to regular Relic play?

[Zallis]

@ Zallis: Not being able to see US medic health is not a huge problem, but it is a problem. It's impossible to tell how much health they've got left, so often I end up firing at a medic my men have no chance of killing - revealing position, wasting time, etc. The US medics are damn hard to kill with volks, and whilst rifles usually end up with BARs (or close range shooting, which is fast and downs medics quick), volks are not nearly as efficient. Knowing how much damage I'm doing, whether I can kill it etc would be helpful.

Medics have been nerfed so they're fairly easy to kill now. I never said it was a bad change, and should have been in from the start (you could always select the Wehr medic). But this is the last patch, if I remember correctly, and saving such a trivial change for the final patch seems somewhat silly.

[PrivateNoHope]

Firstly, I agree with just about everything said recently. Zallis I was scratching my head also, with the PAK ambush, penetration, fire rate and already good accuracy - why on earth increase accuracy vs anything? (hmm Kanga maybe but the nerfs it got were about right and the Cromwell shouldnt suffer).
Sussurus, well said. The biggest mystery to me is why the burst bug wasnt fixed? Relic know of the issue but only lessen the effect? do they like this bug? if so then say its not a bug, change the reload and cool down time otherwise make the cool down and reload time what they are meant to be and be done with it.
Tsaos, you are on the money mate, step 1 - fix all bugs, step 2 - address balance issues. This is heaps easier compared to trying to do both at once, better known as tail chasing
I have done a stack more testing today (with latest patch) and the past few days with previous revision. The M10 is not fixed but the phase seems to be. I had the mis-fire happen with the PE PIV as well, odd.
The Volks v Riflemen test (hot topic before) - MP40 volks (no vet) defeat riflemen with BARs at short range 9 times out of 10 (both point blank in green cover), medium range 8 times out of 10 (green cover), long range 4 times out of 10. This surprised me a lot, I thought MP40 volks were only good close range and were no match for BAR'ed riflemen. Riflemen @ vet 1 dramatically changes this equation.
The riflemen vet is coming too late, vet one is ok and first upgrade at supply isnt too much of a problem but the upgrade time (mainly 2nd supply yard upgrade) takes too long. Its very expensive which I think is OK but the time taken for it to complete is too long - my solution is reduce build time on second supply yard upgrade and I think the vet bonus change will be spot on.
I re-evaluated the ameri stag and I gotta say it is pathetic, the Greyhound is superior in every way. I mean it bearly scratches a bunker, building, puma, stug and as for so called "good vs infantry" purpose its very sub standard compared to a PE AC or puma and the stun doesnt stop a stug from turning and shooting and your other units cant hit stunned units because of the smoke, watse of muni really. I say re-invent with some other purpose because at the moment there is no point to it for the cost.
Strafe is still to one sided. Its still too OP vs PE troops and doesnt do enough to vet 2+ Wehr grens. VS a single squad it will kill maybe one man, I think this is a bad thing, 150 muni on a single squad should kill 2-3 men of the squad, that said if your silly enough to waste 150 muni to wound one squad then maybe its karma that only one guys dies
Brit inf blob is fixed a lot by the piat vs infantry nerf, this is a massive improvement IMO. The bren repair nerf works well along with the panzerfaust improvement. Now supported MG42s are "supported".
The Gessy still seems to do too much damage for the range it has, I cant bring myself to choose the Stug over it. Its the 75mm version not the 88mm version, plus T3, should do, at most, same damage as panther. I do like that the build time is reduced.
I havent really tested PE much so no meaningful comments here except to the Marder targets much better which was needed.
I will edit this post tomorrow as I have to go, I have a stack more notes on testing. Feel free to criticise my comments as I like constructive criticism as I get biased sometimes.

[Zallis]

The Volks v Riflemen test (hot topic before) - MP40 volks (no vet) defeat riflemen with BARs at short range 9 times out of 10 (both point blank in green cover), medium range 8 times out of 10 (green cover), long range 4 times out of 10. This surprised me a lot, I thought MP40 volks were only good close range and were no match for BAR'ed riflemen. Riflemen @ vet 1 dramatically changes this equation.
The riflemen vet is coming too late, vet one is ok and first upgrade at supply isnt too much of a problem but the upgrade time (mainly 2nd supply yard upgrade) takes too long. Its very expensive which I think is OK but the time taken for it to complete is too long - my solution is reduce build time on second supply yard upgrade and I think the vet bonus change will be spot on.

If Z-axis' DPS tool is to be beleived, there's no reason NOT to upgrade your volks to MP40s - their long range damage is barely lower than that of their K98s. In fact, I believe that tool is somewhat outdated, in that it doesn't have the mid-range accuracy buff that volks got a while ago (in 2.601?). I'm also curious as to how you performed your test.

I actually think the 2nd supply yard upgrade should be reduced in cost. The only times I've been able to use it is in long games when I've been spamming airbourne or something - the fuel cost is just too prohibitive, I find, if you want to play a balanced army and not just build nothing but elite infantry.

I don't have ToV, so I can't use the T17, but it just bothers me that the T17 is basically an M8 minues the mines. It also sacrifices AV/AT firepower (not that the M8's was all that great to being with, but still) to kill infantry no faster than the greyhound. It has nice synergy with AT guns, but that strikes me as a major waste of the primary advantage of armoured cars: their great mobility.

[Celution]

BlackOmne, agree on Hoch, but the island is also pretty game deciding. I think this map conversion is pretty damn awesome for Hoch.

[MajorWAA]

There are also plenty of campaign maps converted to multiplayer maps. Operation Goodwood 8p, Bourguebus Ridge 8p, Chambois 8p, Trun 8p, Miss Drop 6p, La Fiere 6p are great for a start. These should be easy and quick to incorporate as the map is already made.

[TsaosChicken]

Sorry Celestial, I like the original. It's a 1v1 on the island and can offer some great battles while the war rages on with the rest of the map. It also is a key to the map and giving people more ways to access it is bad in my opinion.

[Celution]

It's not 1v1 on the island. It's pretty much a game winning place it you have it. There's more rescources on the island than the whole other flank.

[PrivateNoHope]

Zallis, my testing took hours and was done like this.
I have 2 PCs side by side in my games room running CoH in a 1v1. For volks/rifles - I find a nice open area on the map and build sand bags at the appropriate distance, then move the riflemen to one side of the area and volks on the other, out of each others range. Then simultaniously move them into the disired location to achieve the range (both cusors in position then click both mouse buttons at once). As you can appreciate the ranges may not be spot on but the results were interesting but not conclusive. So it up to everyone to take out of it what they like. In cases where 9 or 10 out of ten times a particular unit beats another unit, some conclusions could be drawn, but in the end it was only 10 samples for each. The vet 1 test was, the riflemen got vet one while testing, I threw a few volks around at the various sand bags then introduced the rifles. The rifles were much more effective but not as a controlled test.
For Stag I did heaps of testing. In one test I had 8 stags vs a Stug, I had the stug surrounded, stunning it and it still turned and shot the stags. I didnt count the shots but it was easilly over 50 to kill the stug. It also took more than 50 shots to kill a Puma (keep in mind many shots missed). Another test a did a few times was - I made a gren sqaud with a schrek and left them neutral cover and uncontrolled, I controlled the stag driving into long range and then out of range. Managed to kill 1 -2 men, every second schrek shot hit (seemed to be heat seeking) and took 2 or 3 hits to kill the stag. The stag before the changes probably would have won this battle most times.
Strafe tests were pretty basic. Build a blob and strafe it, mostly in neutral cover.
The rest was limited messing around and probably more opinion than anything. If you have any ideas for a test I will be happy to try when I get time.

[TsaosChicken]

@celestial: I understand that it isn't a 1v1 there but it develops that way and if one player is better than another, it will draw others to help and possibly cause a weakness on the rest of the map. The other thing I would do is add bridges from the base to the island. Leave the original bridges in place to get vehicles across and such but add a footbridge on the top and bottom right to lead from the base area. At least then it would give each side a better chance of defending/attacking without having to pass through the center killing fields.

[BlackOmne]

Remember the rules of the thread. Let's not spend too much time discussing [specific] maps. If someone wants to discuss maps more, please start a thread on maps discussing the design balance of the official maps (don't talk about 3rd-party maps there unless they're conversions of the official maps - as examples of how the a map could be better).

[bob]

If their nerfing sappers piats then where is the speed increase to make them useful? now they will be completely worthless. A look at pumas with vet wouldn't have gone a miss either, you can bang rounds at these things from a cromwell all day and hit jack **** when they are vetted which is a complete game breaker. Why is it the real issue just keep being missed.

[Zallis]

Sigh... here we go again.

The PIAT nerfs to infantry were needed. They were hitting infantry far too often (and still hit far too often) because they don't rely on accuracy, but rather their scatter which is negligible, and infantry can't move fast enough to dodge the piat shots. They kill PGs instantly. THe nerf changes them so that they don't kill PGs instnatly, and do less damage to other infantry as well.

The nerfs against skirted targets is a bug fix. The PIATs currently are unaffected by armoured skirts (basically all of wehr tank vet 3) because they currently have the same damage and penetration modifiers as against unskirted targets. The change was to make them actually affected by the skirts.

The penetration modifier at short and medium range is a definite nerf.

But the other two changes are buffs. Increased projectile speed? Shorter reload time? Basically you can hit moving targets better, and shoot more often.

Pumas are absolute bullshit against the british. Upgun has good accuracy vs british infantry (actually, not too sure if this was changed in the beta, but there are no notes on it) and can penetrate every vehicle reliably with the exception of the firefly and the churchill, which can't really fight back and are slow enough to flank and spank.

[vparez]

The nerfs against skirted targets is a bug fix. The PIATs currently are unaffected by armoured skirts (basically all of wehr tank vet 3) because they currently have the same damage and penetration modifiers as against unskirted targets. The change was to make them actually affected by the skirts.

Which is a little bit odd since PIAT is hitting the target from above, and armored skirts are designed to protect against a bazooka shot into the side of the tank.

Otherwise, PIATs seem to be quite ok now, based on my skirmish testing.

P.S. Wehr AI sniper on normal is impossible to kill with recon squad, and it fires at a staghound. Why does it fire at a Stag? Should be fixed maybe?

[Celution]

Lets move the PIAT disussion to this thread.

[Lordgoof]

Just checkign out teh assault grenade changes.......seems like a huge buff to an already pretty powerful ability.

That is, it can now kill units, and has reduced scatter.

I haven;t played any games where anyone has used it suprisingly (have only played 3 or 4 games with the beta patch)

Has anyone had much experinece against them? especially on a high muni map like industrial riverbed, or sturtzdorf? or just about all of the 1v1 maps come to think of it.

[Kolaris]

They also had their damage significantly reduced...

[Lordgoof]

AHhh really? i didn't see that in the patch notes.

[TsaosChicken]

Have they, or are they planning to change the Ami mortar? It's the only thing Ami has to reach out and touch someone in the FoW and it still sucks.

[Zallis]

- American mortar setup time reduced from 2.4s to 1.5s
- American mortar teardown time reduced from 2.8s to 1.9s

Buffs, yes, but token ones in my opinion. It still doesn't quite address that americans don't really have anything to reliably take out the wehr mortar in the early game. The change is nice in that it helps to differentiate the mortars more, but still fails to address the pborlem imo.

[Dymo]

Crazy I know... but I would even go for moving the US mortar back to the MP (since it sees very limited use as is in 1v1) with a shift of the US MG to the Rax (even if the price had to go up)
That would give .75 of the factions MG's early instead of just the current .50

The Jeep is terrible...