[!!!SPOILERS!!!] Walking Dead Season 2

[bman3k]

Spoiler

I thought the race thing actually made Daryl more badass since his brother was quite openly hateful, where as Daryl was like "lolnope" to the zombies who wanted to get T-Dawg. I'd love an episode where he gets isolated and f*cks sh*t up the entire time and stays alive .

I hope "Fatty McRedneck" will make it back, he just seems way to obvious of a candidate to kill off.

Tired of the blonde's screaming and stuff, it's an appropriate response to zombie death, but it's tiresome to see now.

What do you guys think is going to happen with the little girl?

[roflmao]

Shane. No dude... no.

Spoiler

So one moment he nobly tells Otis that he should go on and leave him behind, then the next he sacrifices Otis? I don't buy it.

[DeafMute]

Spoiler

totally called it =P. Series is getting better. Wonder what those noises are the old guy was hearing in the woods? Special infected? =D

[Pocktio]

Spoiler

I thought him telling the redneck to leave him behind was the 'wrong' flashback, we get to see the 'real' one during the shower recollection. Anyways, WHAT A BASTARD. Christ that's just horrible, I hope he gets done in the same way.

[Starfisher]

Spoiler

Holy shit

I mean if you're going to pull something like that, shoot the guy in the head. They'd still eat the corpse and you don't leave him to get torn to pieces. I think he realized that the only way out was for one of them to become bait, but if he couldn't be the bait, then someone had to. Plus there's more of Otis than there is of Shane.

When Shane finally snaps from the pressure they're heaping on his character, it's going to be pretty epic. I mean if a gnat lands on him the wrong way he'll probably just FLIP THE FUCK OUT

[DeafMute]

Also is talk of stephen king writing/directing an episode or 2.

Also

Spoiler

MICHONNE

Is due to show face in season 3

[roflmao]

Ok, please, one thing is episode spoilers and another is comic book spoilers. I know that the tv series doesn't follow the path of the comic books exactly but please stop spoiling future episodes! :P

[Starfisher]

Ok so we're on page two, no need to use spoiler tags anymore. I edited the title. Anyone who gets spoilered on the TV show reading this loses.

And yeah, comic book spoilers = DEATH FROM THE FIRE GODS!

So, after mulling this episode over on the way to work (through the apocalyptic wasteland that is Northeastern New Jersey at the moment; ice/snow storm has killed ALL THE TREES), couple things:

1) The Carl arc is MADDENINGLY SLOW. I'm glad they got the surgery thing over with. Maybe now they can move on a bit from sitting around inside crying... wait this might be why they fired Darabont, so they could have more scenes of characters talking about their feelings over and over and over again.
2) The Sophia arc is MADDENINGLY SLOW. How much more ineffectual crying can they cram into one season? At least it has Daryl in it being a badass. The hung zombie was pretty cool I have to admit.
3) The Shane arc is FREAKING AWESOME. How much more insanity can the guy be a part of? Which of his many terrible secrets will lead to some blow out? There's flawed characters and then there's awesome flawed characters, and I think Shane is starting to be the latter.

[Alliance]

I'm actually pretty happy with the new direction. I mean I love action zombie flicks as much as the next guy, but Walking Dead really takes the time to make you think about the real fears and horror of a zombie apocalypse, which isn't only just about survival, but the hardship of life in a world with hardly any hope of survival and the reasons to keep on trying.

On this specific episode yeah Daryl keeps being awesome, Otis' loss is a sad thing to see, as he seemed to be crucial to the farms upkeep and sustainability, and the reason the sophia arc is so slow, IMO, is because it's entwined with the Carl arc, which will probably be one of the main stories this season has to tell, as Shane's arc is mixed into it too.

[Malachi]

Great episode. I really like the acting of the dude that plays Shane.

[Paladin]

Jesus wept... Any possible slack that could have been cut for Shane based on his attempts to do good since the incident at the CDC are gone, just gone. There's no fucking redemption from what he just did.

You're in a zombie apocalypse, you don't fucking fight the living. You certainly don't kill an ally who's proven himself over and over to be a good man, who's had your back the whole time you've been near death from a zombie horde. And you sure as fuck don't fire off the poor bastard's last round so that he can't even kill himself before the horde takes him.

Shane no longer even qualifies as a human being.

I hope the others find out about it and infect him and hang him like that zombie Daryl and what's-her-name found in the woods.

[roflmao]

I think the Sophia was just a plot device to keep the survivors from moving on so the carl / shane arc could be explored. There's really no Sophia arc at all. If they find her, okay, plot point closed. If they don't find her .. okay, sad, but still nothing dramatic happens. Sophia already accomplished her goal for the main story and that's about all there is to her character.

[Starfisher]

Shane fired the last round? I thought Otis tried to shoot Shane. Have to watch that sequence again.

I agree that the way Shane left Otis to die was absolutely abjectly horrible (I mean at least shoot him in the head/heart so he doesn't have to be conscious for that), but the decision to use one of them as bait made sense from the larger perspective of getting the shit back to save Carl. That's what makes Shane such an awesome character. You can see his reasoning even if it inverts normal concepts of nobility; rather than sacrifice himself so Otis could get back (something we'd all see as redemptive), he sacrifices Otis so that he can get back. Instead of dying, he does the horrible stuff necessary to save other people. It's like an evil-jesus complex, some perfect inversion of nobility. Otis figured they "had to try" to get the perfect outcome, even though that was impossible, Shane accepted that it was a choice of three people dying or one person dying. He just chose the wrong person.

Awesome character.

[bman3k]

@Starfisher I thought I saw Otis trying to shoot Shane as well. Also, I don't think Shane was that concerned with Carl at that point, he just wanted to guarantee that he would get back safely. If anything he was going to slow Otis down after he hurt his leg (I think?). Part of me is glad Otis went out that way rather that dying due to being fat (ie tripping and falling, not being able to fit somewhere) and they at least showed how much he was willing to risk his life to make amends for shooting Carl.

[Mac_Bug]

I always thought Otis wasn't gonna make it cause he was so fat, but they turned it around and gave Shane the limp that made him slower than Otis, and to top it off instead of running away by himself Otis saved Shane's life at the fence earlier. I accept the three or one as a matter of necessity but that just flat out made Shane out to be something of a rational bastard.

[Starfisher]

Well Shane does offer to be left behind, but Otis rejects that with "we have to try". Shane apparently interprets that as, "ok, so you're the sacrifice then" since it's obvious they won't make it on their own. He's a little eager though, it would have been trivial to hand Otis the backpack and just sit down/shoot himself.

[roflmao]

I'm sorry, but I hardly think Shane was thinking in some utilitarian way at all. Yes, he offered to be left behind, but obviously Otis (being hopeful) was going to try to take Shane with him. Otis would've looked like a cold-hearted bastard if he hadn't at least tried to help Shane continue on. Otis had the reasonable and normal response, and Shane should've known Otis was going to respond that way at first. Shane instantly flopped on his request, not even giving it a second thought. If Shane was really only concerned with saving Carl, he would have insisted that he be left behind by either just refusing to move or shooting himself. Why didn't Shane do this? Because he wasn't really willing to be left behind.

In short: Otis wasn't being stubborn or anything, he was just being reasonable. All Shane really needed to do is insist 2-3 times and I bet Otis would've reluctantly left Shane behind. *Shane: Just go! .. GO! Otis goes on with his turned around looking at Shane with a feeling of impotence*



One last thing: The execution (no pun intended) of that scene was gut-wrenchingly glorious. I loved the way the scene was coreographed(?) because it really just emphasized the horror of Shane's actions.

[Stripe7]

I liked that scene. It is the old tale about the two hunters and the bear, one does not have to outrun the bear, just outrun the other hunter. A movie with a similar scene was in the movie "Deep Rising".

[Ammon Ra]

O_O

How did i miss this? Three bloody episodes even?!

>:[

[SOLID MATTIC]

I'm enjoying the second season a lot despite a few annoyances. Its frustrating to see Andrea portrayed like she is. I think the actor is doing a good job its just jarring to see this version of Andrea next to the Andrea from the comics.

Spoiler

Andrea is a total badass in comics and the best shot out of all of them, I mean all of them including Rick, Tyreese, hell even friggin Ford. She's not some cold machine but she's far stronger than this tv version and has fought the through intense pain and loss to be quite a tough cookie.

Shame to see Otiz get killed but if I can be permitted some spoilers from the comic

Spoiler

This death is much more awesome/ heroic and pertinent to the plot than his comic book death so kudos to the show imo

The group seems spread out right now, with the RV stuck on the highway as they look for Sophia while the rest are at the farm. I'm sure they will find Sophia but I'm intrigued by her apparent disappearance. I'm guessing there is more to it than her simply wondering around lost.

Overall these first three episodes have been great and I look forward to the rest of the season, despite all the apparent problems behind the scenes this show has remained awesome

[Starfisher]

If Shane was really only concerned with saving Carl

Who said that was his only concern? It's the obvious rationalization he used, but that doesn't mean he's actually noble.

[Malachi]

In short: Otis wasn't being stubborn or anything, he was just being reasonable. All Shane really needed to do is insist 2-3 times and I bet Otis would've reluctantly left Shane behind. *Shane: Just go! .. GO! Otis goes on with his turned around looking at Shane with a feeling of impotence

We would have a generic scene of heroic sacrifice instead of this awesome one. I also disagreewith Shane acting irrationally - I think, in his mind, he was making a hard decision to ensure the gear gets to Carl in time. As for not shooting Otis in the head, the walkers could prioritise a moving, living target over an already dead one. Not saying what he did wasn't horrible, just that I don't think he did it just because he's an evil bastard.

[Coey]

With how slow the show had got if Shane hadn't of shot Otis in the leg that would of been the last episode for me. All they did for 3 episodes was whine!

[Paladin]

...I don't think he did it just because he's an evil bastard.

He's an irredeemable evil bastard because he did it

[Starfisher]

I wonder if that's what they're going for. Make Shane look as evil as possible for a while, then flip it around. Right now everyone thinks Shane is great thanks to the medical supplies, and because they don't know how evil he is behind the scenes. Imagine if later on everyone starts to hate Shane because of something he does publicly, but then behind the scenes he's doing something really good.

Shane must be a hell of a fun character to write.

[DeafMute]

Going back to the trailer in my first post. I think Dale will catch Shane on something. Leading him to say 'I know what kind of man you are' All leading back to season 1 woods incident with Shane pointing his shotgun at Rick.

[roflmao]

We would have a generic scene of heroic sacrifice instead of this awesome one. I also disagree with Shane acting irrationally - I think, in his mind, he was making a hard decision to ensure the gear gets to Carl in time. As for not shooting Otis in the head, the walkers could prioritise a moving, living target over an already dead one. Not saying what he did wasn't horrible, just that I don't think he did it just because he's an evil bastard.

Wait , I didn't want that generic scene to actually happen. I think the events that unfolded are way better for the plot than generic heroic sacrifice. I'm talking about things from the perspective of inside the story.

I just don't buy the whole "greater good" thing because Shane flopped on his request way too fast. It would be as ridiculous as me saying to my girlfriend:

"Honey, I've decided to marry you."
"Really? Are you sure?"
"On second thought I change my mind, I think I'll just leave you instead."

The reason why the Shane insta-flip-flop is absurd, in my opinion, is because sacrificing your life is not a decision you take lightly. I know that they were under a lot of pressure and decisions had to be taken quickly, but no one offers to sacrifice their life to a horde of biting zombies without being damn well sure that they are willing to do the sacrifice. No one goes from heroic sacrifice to "okay nvm" to homicide in 5 minutes.

Not to mention that the chances of Carl surviving were slim, so brutally murdering a healthy man to obtain an extremely low chance of saving another's life is not a good bargain.

[Paladin]

I actually would have liked to see Shane sacrifice himself, and make up for all the crap he's done in the past.

I've changed my mind about what they should do to Shane when they inevitably find out what he's done somehow.

As I stated before, the living shouldn't kill the living in this situation. So what they should actually do is simply drop him in the middle of nowhere and move on. Leave him with no food or water, he's forfeited his right to consume communal resources. But leave him with a pistol and one bullet, so he can reflect on the fact that they've been more merciful to him than he was to Otis in the time he has left.

He's too dangerous for them to keep him around. Anyone capable of doing what he did to Otis has something fucking wrong with them, and they don't have the luxury of trying to rehabilitate someone like that. Leaving him on his own isn't a guaranteed death sentence, and they'd have left him with a way out if he does get cornered by a horde.

[Malachi]

@roflmao: You forget Shane has an obvious emotional attachment to the boy. He might be perfectly willing to sacrifice the dude that shot Carl (even if by accident) for just a slight better chance of saving Carl's life. And I don't think it was about a hard decision about sacrificing himself. I interpret it more like he was thinking, no matter what happens to any of us, the medical gear has to reach Carl. Shane's a cop too, and I would think he's trained in that way of thinking - soccess of the mission above all else.

I actually would have liked to see Shane sacrifice himself, and make up for all the crap he's done in the past.

*Yawn* That would make that show just another one in thousands. Seriously, I like it so much more because they try to avoide such obvious cliches.

But I guess you're talking from the "inside" perspective, like roflmao. Which I don't really get the point of, but whatever.

[Starfisher]

roflmao: The whole point of going to the FEMA place was to get medical supplies. That was why they were there. Getting back required one of them to be alive. I mean if you're a self-interested psychopath trying to stay alive, what are you going to think to yourself:

"Well, I got my fake appeal to be left behind out of the way, let's shoot this fat bastard and yeehaw on back to the farm!"

or

"Fuck fuck fuck ok leave me behind? No? fuck fuck fuck fuck Ok then only way out is to shoot this guy SHIT. Fuck. SHIT. Ok. Gotta get this stuff back to Carl."

Your marriage analogy is poor because there's no ulterior motive driving your random flip-flop. Shane has at least two, maybe even three if you count a sudden onset of the revengesies. If the only way to survive a situation is for one person to sacrifice themselves, and you happen to be a sociopath, doing what Shane did would be perfectly rational.

[Paladin]

*Yawn* That would make that show just another one in thousands. Seriously, I like it so much more because they try to avoide such obvious cliches.

But I guess you're talking from the "inside" perspective, like roflmao. Which I don't really get the point of, but whatever.

Nope, I just would have liked to see Shane turn into something other than a complete piece of dog shit. That's not interesting or "flawed", he's not a flawed but basically good person, he's clearly a worthless waste of human DNA with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, which doesn't make him interesting in my opinion.

[Malachi]

To me he's more of a tragic character. Wanting to make up for his moment of weakness, and commiting even worse atrocities with that goal in mind.

Not talking about deeds of such magnitude, but I actually met some people IRL who did exactly that - made even bigger mistakes just because they were so obsessed with fixing previous ones.

[Paladin]

Meh.

He's never been much of a good person. From the start he was a cowardly dick, then he tried to rape someone... I lost all respect for him there. He started to sort of work off a tiny portion of his bad karma, but no... He's not "tragic" at this point. His actions weren't those of a good person trying to make things better. Normal, healthy human beings who aren't complete psychopaths are not capable of doing what he did in the last episode.

That's not an interesting or tragic figure, it's black moustache evil.

[Starfisher]

Sure they are. There's a poll somewhere where ~40% of the respondents said it made some sense to do what Shane did. Hell this thinking is so common as to be enshrined in folk wisdom - "You don't have to outrun the bear, just the guy next to you."

How can the sociopath who randomly busts out acts of insanity while throwing in curve balls like risking his life for medical supplies not be "interesting"? I can see "not a good guy" or "wouldn't want to have a beer with him" but "not interesting" makes me wonder what on earth could possibly interest you.

[Malachi]

Paladin, a tragic character doesn't mean he's a "good person trying to do something better". It doesn't mean he's a good person at all.

Normal, healthy human beings who aren't complete psychopaths are not capable of doing what he did in the last episode.

I would call that pretty naive. I'm pretty sure there's a whole lot of terrible terrible things that "normal, hehalthy human beings" would commit when under stress or pressure.

[Ammon Ra]

I'm inclined to agree starfisher. By no means is shane not an interesting character.

Shane is haunted by the choice of telling his lori that rick died, especially when rick shows up alive and kicking. Ontop of that he looses his "place" in the group, with a feeling of being usurped by rick, in addition to loosing his position as carl's foster father and getting personal with lori.
On one hand rick is his best friend, but on the other i'm certain he hates him for being alive and taking back what he had gotten used to being his own: rick's family.

in this last episode, he cares so much about carl that he's willing to leave someone for dead, sacrificing someone he doesn't know for carl. At the same time he looses part of his humanity in the process.

Shane is by far the single most interesting character in the series because he is constantly being tormented by his past decisions, actions, etc.

Shane is a Tragic hero, and a rather good one.

As for his actions, he sacrificed someone he didn't know to save carl. Could they both have gotten out of that situation together? unknown. He wanted to save carl whatever the cost, and was willing to pay any price at that time.

We cannot judge his actions because in his situation our moral standards mean nothing. zombpocalypse is a complete break down of society. we don't agree with what he did, but we have the baggage of not being in a zombpocalypse. Even though shane is in one, memories of society before the zombies tear at his psyche. being a cop only exacerbates that problem.

[DeafMute]

Just to pitch in. I think Shane was fully aware of what may have to be done to survive. Himself asking Otis about how many shots he has left wasnt just to fight off the zmobies but also to make sure otis was minmally armed when he made his move against otis.

[roflmao]

Starfisher: Yeah, the analogy was more than a little off, I'll admit. If you classify Shane as a sociopath, then yes, what he did makes sense. I don't think he was a sociopath though, just a person with disordered passions. (before he murdered otis. now he clearly is a sociopath).

On the 40% statistic: it's quite easy to take a radical utilitarian point of view from an armchair. What people say they'll do and what people actually do tend to be quite different (game theory ftw). Most of us are deeply confused with regards to what we think we believe is morally right and wrong. In other words: a lot of people actually don't know what they believe is right and wrong, amazingly enough.

[Mac_Bug]

killing someone else to stay alive makes you a sociopath?

[Starfisher]

Pointing a gun at your "best friend", trying to rape his wife and then using some dude as bait in a pretty godawful way certainly indicates some of the characteristics of sociopathy, yes.

[Mac_Bug]

don't you have it backwards then? He'd be normal person who exhibits deviant behavior when the end of the world comes, not a sociopath who randomly do good things complete counter to your analysis

[Stripe7]

Is Shane's morality in an obviously abnormal environment abhorrent? He is doing what is necessary to insure that the boy in his "pack/family" grouping survives. The cost of that survival is the death of the guy who shot the boy in the first place even if it was accidental.

The question is does Shane shaving his head represent his covering up for what happened or removing a reminder because he feels guilt? Does feeling guilt make him a better person? Does covering up evidence make him a worse person? Both questions should be asked in context of the morality of the situation they find themselves in, not in the context of the world we inhabit.

[Coey]

I think it's to do with Otis ripping a handful of his hair out, plus that's what crazy people do (Taxi Driver)

EDIT: Did he close the gate behind him when he came back?

[Starfisher]

He'd be normal person who exhibits deviant behavior when the end of the world comes

"Deviant" behavior is part of how you define sociopathy, according to the various definitions I looked while arguing about the term in a different context long ago. Maybe this has changed, but "the end of the world" doesn't change the diagnosis. And no, you don't have to be a slavering Hitler demon spawn who never ever does anything good to be a sociopath; it's a balance. Shane's is tipped towards sociopath right now.

[roflmao]

A few thoughts:

The whole water well thing was incredibly stupid. For real. What the hell were they thinking. First of all you have an undead rotting corpse swimming in your water that has blood all over him and he's not going to contaminate the water unless he is shot? Huh? Second, you send a man in a well using a rope that sounds like it is going to break to pieces at any time? Really?

I guess one of the big inconsistencies (which is a problem with all zombie stories really) is that bites infect you, but getting blood splattered all over your body and mouth doesn't, which isn't very believable.

Daryl was cool as always.

Lori: Duh.

Asian dude: Nice job winning over the girl with nothing but social awkwardness.

Nothing really dramatic, as expected after the crazy-intense first three episodes.

[Roeben]

I guess one of the big inconsistencies (which is a problem with all zombie stories really) is that bites infect you, but getting blood splattered all over your body and mouth doesn't, which isn't very believable.

I don't remember this being the case until now, nor even mentioned.

[SOLID MATTIC]

The well thing was weird, I think a way to explain it was they were just desperate to believe they could salvage a good water source despite all the evidence to the contrary. It was silly but I think I can understand why they did it. So I'm guessing the zombie just randomly wandered/ fell in there? I've really enjoyed Daryl's character transformation. There is no such character in the comic and I was thinking he was just going to be some sort of stereotypical hick who would be unnecessarily belligerent at every opportunity, that hasn't been the case and he's become one of my favourite characters.

Also not as much bitching from Andrea this time round, so that's a plus

[Starfisher]

Kind of a boring one, but I guess you need a bridge episode here and there.

Lori taking a leak was kind of funny... I half expected her to stab shane or something while shoving the positive test in his face and screaming incoherently. But no, just pee.

[Starfisher]

So another thing. If a random zombie just wandered in and fell into the well, that would imply that the farm is not actually very well fenced in (or fenced in at all?), which means they're just relying on being in the middle of nowhere to avoid getting stomped by a herd. Which means that with all the vehicle traffic and soon a shooting range, idyllic little farmville is probably screwed.

[DeafMute]

Concerning the farm. I think hershel has afew secrets. WIth him wanting Ricks people leaving shortly. Specially when it came to Rick setting up shop near the barn. Maybe afew family members in zombie form there? Since hershel is against weapons being used in his property and his daughter almost fainting when token black guy caved boomers face in.

Speaking of sexy cowgirl. How'd token asian guy get with her? Lol. lucky sob.

Too many things are bugging me with season 2. And I dont see it getting any better. =/

----------

Oh and the well scene.
Supposed to be upto 5 well sources right? Whats so special about this?
That its even worth saving thanks to mr boomer swimming around in it.
For 1. you had all the water in that truck from episode 1. and the other well sources. Then for some reason they think they can salvage this zombie ridden water source is beyond fuckign retarded. You wouldnt drink bath water would u? Thats what this zombies been in for ages to make his skin go as such.
This show fustrates me more then entertains tbh.

---
Wonder if this show could grow anymore preditable.

Spoiler

Turns out my thinking was right. Hersel has zombies in his barn that Maggie and Glenn will find when they try and sneak off for some nookie