"But I am finished with you, singleplayer campaign."

[mcnostril]

Okay, replaying the singleplayer, I think it went like this:
Orks invade planet in a massive WAAAAAGH, target the titan manufactorum. PDF is utterly crushed, and everyone gets murdered to hell over a week or more, but while most of the local defenders are dead, the Orks haven't broken through the automated defenses and the manufactorum itself hasn't been breached. Techpriests and Skitarii probably went to meet them head on (or supporting the PDF) and got overwhelmed by sheer numbers (when the Ultramarines get there, it's already been at least a week, and it's still raining roks from the sky, so their numbers are rather daunting). Guard reinforcements nearby are diverted to lend a hand, but the orks have turned the very considerable defenses against them, so only a handful break through and get stuck in a war of attrition for at least a few days (I think lt mira mentions it's been more than a week as well - the intro itself says 9 days but the ingame dialog makes it sound like more), which they are slowly losing.
For all we know there may be Titans at the other manufactorums on the planet (in the intro you can see that Ajakis is the only one really being torn apart), but I can't imagine you would be able to use them without obliterating the crap out of the place (although they could probably blow the crap out of the defense guns... Or maybe the defense guns pose too much of a risk to a Titan since they've been shown to easily cleave starships in half).
Then there's also the Princeps and his crew holed up somewhere in the manufactorum, which is probably where the surviving Skitarii and Techpriests would be (and they'd just hold down the fort in the manufactorum while the guard fights outside). There's also a chance that a number of Techpriests and Skitarii were killed by Nemeroth when he took over the Inquisitor (since he mentions in the audio logs that they were involved in his research).

It seems somewhat plausible I guess; unlikely, but eh, it's 40k, stranger things have happened. I'm still missing like 11 skulls though (mostly the later ones) so maybe there's more bits and bobs in there.

[Zallis]

Is it just me, but does everyone aside from Titus and Sidonus sound rather young? The princeps in particular sounds a bit like a teenager, as do the rest of the guardsmen (hell, were Antioch and Enoch voiced by the same person?). Ork voices didn't seem quite low enough either.

NO KILLA KAN? WTF!?!? I DEMAND A FIGHT WITH A KILLA KAN!

Fighting Nemeroth's lackeys was harder than fighting Nemeroth himself. Don't even get to cross blades with the big bad himself, but push him off a cliff and punch him till his head explodes, occaisionally leaping out of the way? Lame. The fight with the warboss was more engaging, if not any harder.

Oh, and whoever said you only find the autocannon once, you can actually find it twice. The first is when you fight off a Chaos assault after Sidonus dies. It's near some scrap metal cover on the right hand side. I, unfortunately, found it only after having killed everyone except a lowly heretic.

[CommissarRezail]

Well, i'm assuming the guardsmen are all teenager considering how Lt. Mira did have to hold their hands and babysit them and coddle them to stand up and look like a solider for about 1.5 seconds.

[Shuma]

Yeah the final fight is shit, i mean seriously? QTEs? I blame God of War for bringing this plague upon us, fucking God of War. I was so excited to fight a Demon Prince in melee combat with my hammer, hell i took the hammer for god knows how long because i wanted to use it to fight him in melee but noooooooo.

More disappointing than the Fable II ending, at least there i didn't expect a real fight.

[Gorb]

You would rather fight a boss with XXX health that one or two-hit you?

Really?

Because I would find that as frustrating as fuck. It seems to me that people are against an event-driven scenario purely because it's event-driven, rather than appreciating what's there. What was the biggest complaint about DoW II "boss battles"? Ah yes, their neverending health and/or their ability to instagib. Even though Space Marine is an RTS, the same applies here (if not moreso, given that you had multiple squads in DoW II, as supposed to your one guy in Space Marine).

[Shuma]

You would rather fight a boss with XXX health that one or two-hit you?

No, i would rather have a fight that's dependent on skill than just smashing some buttons the screen tells you to smash.

[cube13]

No, i would rather have a fight that's dependent on skill than just smashing some buttons the screen tells you to smash.

Like the warboss fight? That sucked. Dodge the charge, shoot him, dodge the charge, shoot him, get melee'd, get turned around hitting the orcks, get hit by the charge, die.

I'd rather just have a cutscene.

[mcnostril]

I didn't mind the QTE so much, but it dragged on too long. The fight before that was hard enough to count as a boss fight so I'm cool with it, but the "smash smash smash dodge" of the QTE went on so long that it completely drained away the wow factor of punching a daemon prince in the face as you're falling off a miles high collapsing structure. And that's quite a feat because just typing that sentence made things spontaneously combust on my desk out of sheer awesome.

Although a proper boss fight where you have to fight the big bad like some type of mega-nob to charge up enough fury to bash his fucking face in and then finish with a QTE, now that I would've like more.

On another note, I have no idea how long the invasion is supposed to have been going on. Intro says day 9, but Mira says that she sent men to reinforce the manufactorum two weeks ago. I AM CONFUSED.

[Imperial Honour]

For anyone wondering about the backstory of the Titan Invictus in the campaign, according to the Insider Series the Titan Invictus is fresh off the production chain and just recently assembled. Whether that has anything to do with it not being brought out earlier to help combat the Ork WHAAAGH I do not know, but I like the small bits of additional information these videos can give us.

[Caeltos]

Dude, he smashed Nemeroth's Face with his bare hands. That's freaking unbelieveably badass.

[LoweGear]

Like the warboss fight? That sucked. Dodge the charge, shoot him, dodge the charge, shoot him, get melee'd, get turned around hitting the orcks, get hit by the charge, die.

I'd rather just have a cutscene.

Hm? Even on Hard, the Warboss wasn't that difficult if you realize the following:

- He charges in quite predictable ways, and he basically telegraphs his intent anyhow
- By this time your Fury meter charges with each HIT, rather than with each KILL. Thus just keep pelting away at the Warboss with your weapons till your Fury fills up, then smash the Warboss with whatever melee you got.
- You have enough grenades to spam in the arena to clear the Ork horde reinforcements.

If you survive the initial close combat segments, once that Warboss climbs out of the Arena and tries to grenade you to death the fight suddenly becomes as easy as pie, since the grenades are incredibly easy to dodge.

... then again I did approach the warboss fight with a Thunderhammer equipped, so that's maybe how I found it easy...

[Shuma]

Like the warboss fight? That sucked. Dodge the charge, shoot him, dodge the charge, shoot him, get melee'd, get turned around hitting the orcks, get hit by the charge, die.

No, because yes, it sucked. And the Warboss was ridiculously easy on hard.

[Gorb]

No, i would rather have a fight that's dependent on skill than just smashing some buttons the screen tells you to smash.

Spamming roll to avoid a one-hit KO before waiting for telegraphed powerup/special attack moves to unload clips of ammo into the target . . . is dependent on skill? Oh no wait I'm sorry you have Fury as well, that makes the fight much . . . less . . . one-sided?

Because that's all an uber-boss battle would be otherwise.

The fact that roll, roll, shoot, roll, roll, shoot is comparable to a set of 'quicktime events' is another point.

[ricolikesrice]

The fact that roll, roll, shoot, roll, roll, shoot is comparable to a set of 'quicktime events' is another point.

a quicktime event is "passive" , the player is exactly told what to do and doing that is a mere reflex test of how quick you can hit the button shown on screen.

an actual boss fight is NOT "passive"

the player s reflexes are tested as well but in *good* boss fights there s more to it than simply timing your dodges.
you also need to look WHERE to dodge because a wrong decision could end your life (dodging off a cliff, dodging into another attack, etc.). in *good* boss fights there s more to it than simply pressing the "attack" button, because the enemy is also moving/dodging fast. etc.

and apart from the reflex test the player actually has to think too, he s tested in how quick he analyzes the situation and how quick he can learn (well of course that becomes a moot point if reading spoilers/ playing for a 2nd time) .... and more importantly how he can do all that while under "stress" .

so in short: while both (QTEs and *real* bossfights) boil down to pressing buttons , thats where the similarities end.

[junte112]

Only if they made the quick time event a bit more interesting. GOW had epic moments during QTE.. well at least better than this one.

But my major complaint is that I can feel no character depth.
Titus, Sidonus, Mira, Leandros.... I mean I think DOW 2 Characters had more personality compared to Space Marine.
oh well... Hope they do it right in the next expansion.

[Shuma]

What rico said.

The fight might have sucked anyway, because yeah, apparently Relic is incapable of making a good boss fight, look at the poor warboss. BUT, at least it would've been a fight and in a perfect world, it would've been a good one. Forgive me for expecting better for the supposed end boss fight. And:

The fact that roll, roll, shoot, roll, roll, shoot is comparable to a set of 'quicktime events' is another point.

What the fuck? It's not, how in the, how the, how the fuck is it comparable? One is mindlessly smashing buttons the fucking screen tells you to press, the other is well, a fucking fight, it's like saying that Heavy Rain's gameplay is comparable to that of any action game in existence.

[Gorb]

You can't dodge off of a cliff in Space Marine, ricolikesrice.

Furthermore, a boss moving faster or dodging doesn't do anything at all if that boss can still kill you in one or two hits. I understand there are differences, however I am saying that in this situation (huge Daemon Prince of killy killy death death) the two scenarios are comparable. Failing the QTE results in failure . . . failing to dodge once (i.e. reflexes a la QTE) results in failure (death).

EDIT@Shuma: opinions are opinions. What you like or perceive to be a "decent" boss fight, the next person might necessarily not. I'd love to know how you would craft the final boss fight in Space Marine so that it reflects the realism of a single Space Marine against a Daemon Prince (presumably) and yet manages to not be tediously repetitive.

[KDR_11k]

I think Leandros was fully in the right with his actions. Titus showed a disdain for the Codex Astartes right from the intro despite being part of a very codex-friendly chapter. He criticizes Leandros for following the Codex over Titus's hunches and of course he's unaffected by the Warp. Killing the Warp creatures isn't really a proof of purity, hell, Retribution had you fight a full scale Chaos sacrifice as a Chaos General if you picked that path. Also I wouldn't touch the Invictus with a ten foot pole (or want to be on the same planet as it for that matter) considering it had a Warp power source plugged into it, who knows what kind of residue that left inside the titan.

Kinda disappointed that I never fought any land vehicles, neither Ork nor Chaos. When the Warboss grabbed Titus's feet through an opening gate at first I thought it was one of those Ork mechs (what are they called in English?).

[DeafMute]

Im not expert on the fluff but at the very last cut scene.
Wouldnt the inquesition put all remaining guard and civilian in work camps for the rest of the days?
meaning what Titus said (to spare the lt) invalid?

But guys, I think you have to take this into perpective.
This is a imo, major release and for what it is. Is quiet good.
Afew libteries have to be taken with the fluff to ease new players into WH40k.
As we know GW wouldnt greenlight this if they didnt like it.

One of my main gripes was Titus and his outlook on the codex.
Don't the UMs sleep with a copy of it under the pillow at night? Following every word without question, thats what makes them. Them right?

-edit
Oh and the Black Templars looked badass! was nice to see the BRs too.

So yeah, alittle repetative but as with all games, this will lead onto another game which will build upon what is present and frankly. Im looking forward to it.

[Pocktio]

Ha yeah. He just corrupted a Warlord. Ok that is pretty terrible.

[Sinogrim]

Yeah the final fight is shit, i mean seriously? QTEs? I blame God of War for bringing this plague upon us, fucking God of War. I was so excited to fight a Demon Prince in melee combat with my hammer, hell i took the hammer for god knows how long because i wanted to use it to fight him in melee but noooooooo.

Atleast in God of War you still have to like, you know... beat the boss instead of just cutting the entire fight and going to a QTE.

I was pretty dissapointed by the "boss battles" in this game. It could've definately used a bit more boss battles (and more challenging ones). They could've even implemented vehicles like the killakan or a predator as a boss battle. Would've been pretty cool if you ask me.

[Shuma]

What you like or perceive to be a "decent" boss fight, the next person might necessarily not.

Granted, but the "fight" with the Demon Prince barely classifies as a fight.

I'd love to know how you would craft the final boss fight in Space Marine so that it reflects the realism of a single Space Marine against a Daemon Prince (presumably) and yet manages to not be tediously repetitive.

Ok fine, first than all you keep the Jump Pack, as the fight starts Nemeroth walks toward you and uses generic boss shockwave move 1 to blast away the crates and cover in the arena, at first you just have to duke it out with him in melee, ranged weapons will only cause minimal damage, however as you hit him he can block your moves and parry them even if you are behind them, you have to tap the execution button much like when you try to execute an Ork or a Chaos Marine to push him back and smash him with the hammer/sword/axe to deal extra damage, he in turn can also beat you in the contest and a single hit would drain all your shield, armor, whatever and throw you across the arena, immediately he'd shoot his warp blasts at you, another one of his moves would be to jump away from you to blast you from afar, if you don't reach him before he stops he jumps at the center of the arena and makes another blast wave, when you drop enough of his health he jumps to the edge of the arena and summons Bloodletters, you kill them while he shoots you and when you kill then you get a small cutscenes where he goes "dur hur stupid Ultramarine you can't kill me" he jumps off the arena and you have to follow him, this time the fight is pretty much the same except you and him are jumping from floating rock to floating rock, here he has more allies, mainly renegade guardsmen on the main spire, when you beat the crap out of him again THEN you push him of a rock and engage in the QTE sequence.

He doesn't kill you in one hit, more like 3 or 4 and his blows can throw you across the arena where you then have to avoid his warp blasts, in melee he'd have different attacks that you'd be able to avoid by jumping away, either to the side or above, ie he'd have vertical and horizontal melee attacks, he doesn't telegraph them you just have to learn to recognize them, ie he tilts to the side that's an horizontal attack coming, he tilts back that's a vertical one, when you're in the air he'd attempt to shoot you down or even jump to try and hit you, and he himself would be able to dodge your moves by jumping kind of like devastators do. And he'd also have a flamethrower like attack,
after all he seems to have stolen Huron's claw.

That's the kind of fight i expected from a Demon Prince, that's how i would've done it, and i don't think it would've been repetitive.

[SPEZZMAREN]

Well, i just finished the campaign and I have no complaints. Just, you know, getting that out there.

But, while we are on the subject, if the boss fight hadn't been "press button to smash his face in* it would not have been that awesome. I mean, come on, that fight was epic.

[SpardaSon21]

The final QTE took a bit too long to do, IMO. I think a fight with him, then a scripted event to start a QTE once he took enough damage would have been better. I kept the Thunder Hammer through that whole level hoping I would be able to smack Nemeroth around with it, so I was disappointed when I got sent into a QTE without the opportunity to beat up a daemon prince with a Thunder Hammer.

[ricolikesrice]

You can't dodge off of a cliff in Space Marine, ricolikesrice.

I didnt claim you could - it was one of 2 examples not related to any game in specific for how dodging in *good* boss fights is more than just mashing a button as you implied. Was this comment supposed to be funny ? replace cliff with other environmental dangers if you still dont get it.

Furthermore, a boss moving faster or dodging doesn't do anything at all if that boss can still kill you in one or two hits.

of course it changes a lot, if a boss is hard to hit because he s quick / dodges alot / has hard-to-hit weakspots it takes the player a lot more "skill" (compared to hitting a immobile/slow moving/easy to hit boss) to go on the offense while at the same time still having to manage his defense - thats the whole "stress" thing i was talking about, which is a completely different level than a quick-time-event where you simply have to press the buttons you are told to press and i m not even sure why we re arguing this. maybe i / we are completely misunderstanding what you are talking about but (correct me if i m wrong / try to word your posts better next time) it sounds like you are seriously implying a reflex test where you press 3 buttons exactly as told is more or less equal to a dynamic event where you have to manage 5+ buttons, directional movement, the encounters environmental design , stress and many other factors ...

EDIT@Shuma: opinions are opinions. What you like or perceive to be a "decent" boss fight, the next person might necessarily not.

shuma stated his opinion, he didnt write anything like "fact is" - you on the other hand did .

[Shuma]

But, while we are on the subject, if the boss fight hadn't been "press button to smash his face in* it would not have been that awesome. I mean, come on, that fight was epic.

There was no fight. You fist rape a demon prince into submission with righteous plot fury. Besides i'm not saying that the QTE part should go(in fact, i said it should be on it at the end on my latest post) what i said was that there should've been an actual fight at the end. Imo the Warboss got a better treatment, hell, i think he had more screen-time than Nemeroth. Oh and i just noticed this:

You can't dodge off of a cliff in Space Marine, ricolikesrice

Unfortunately you can, at least in MP. Many a souls have fallen to the depths of the Hab center map.

[KDR_11k]

Well they let you move and aim your gun independently during the fall but I don't think it makes any difference whether you shoot Nemeroth. That could have been expanded into a full fight with manual melee triggering to punch Nemeroth in the face every time he's stunned enough to let you get close...

[Ramrod]

I've managed to fall off the edge on Shattered Bridge too, even though all the edges have rubble "railings".

In any case, I have to agree that the QTE boss "fight" took too long. I know I was supposed to feel like a badass, but the fight took so long I felt more like I was annoying Nemeroth. I couldn't really feel proud of having beaten him when all I did was pester him to death.

[spartan_x]

Boss battles in this game are simply pathetic - come on let's face it ; they seem do be done for retarded children....

and they are not evin spectacular...they are so dull,unimaginative and without substance,that it makes me think the game was rushed and they were stuck in there just to fill up gamespace....

all you feel like is, that you must go through a preordained sequence where you just have to wait out the end (which is totaly unspectacular) through a lot of dull minutes....

this game was supposed to be , epic, spectacular, blockbuster scale if I remember right...(and it actually is in some portions)...
but how can a big blockbuster experience HAVE NO GREAT MOMENTS AT ALL...???

evin the cutscenes are short and minimalistic...

the closest that this game comes to having epic moments, is when Sidonius dies (which could be alot more specacular, if he would have exchanged a few blows with Nemeroth before he died)
and Tituses speech at the end when he disgraces the young Leandros...

the action from the Titan is simply ridiculous: he moves a few steps and fires his cannon once , on what? an unmoving spire.....and that's it...

the ork warboss teleports/jumps away from you like he was an eldar or Tau...you never actually engage him in melee (which is the preferred orky way of fighting)


having said all that I don't actually, consider the game bad, but C'm on Relic ...that crap game called Firewarrior had more depth and much, much more varied boss battles

[Misiok]

About the Titan and the planet falling into submission - in the intro, in the chat you get to read you basically see suggestions for:
Exterminatus, which is denied
And defending against the Ork invasion, which is denied because loss of production is unacceptable. I guess they wouldn't bother deploying the Titan either because you'd have that number of people not working. Which is just stupid because if you don't want to defend because you'll lose production, then why the fuck won't you think it's a bad idea? Why won't you defend, so that you DON'T GET OBLITERATED and lose your stupid production value?

For being humies with cpu's for brains, they sure seem to run Windows there.

[Shuma]

40k can't into logic

[konfeta]

O.K., I have to say this, am I the only one who finds the title of this thread funnier every time its read? Especially in Titus voice?

[ADS]

My mouse software beat "lord" by pressing 1 button triggering macro. sad.

[CommissarRezail]

Wait , in theory you need, left button, space, and f button to beat lord. Not to mention correct timing.

[Inquisitor Lok]

So i just beat the game.. I rather enjoyed it, and thought it was quite fun. With that being said, they had a lot of wasted potential for epic moments of epicness... i mean its W40k, so theres always room for it.

Like everyone else, i thought the boss fights were lame.. The one with the ork.. was bloody easy.. and the cinematic ending to it was wasted potential.. i mean, i was hoping for there to be atleast some epic ass dodging or actually seeing them duke it out or something.. but he just shoots him in the face, which was just anticlimatic (it also seemed like he blew his face off, but the model after still had his head which confused me) And yea, the last boss was a bit weak (im really happy i decided to get rid of my Thunder Hammer before it :P ) the QTE really suffered from what they all suffered from in my opinion, which was a lack of varity of which buttons you had to hit. I mean it wasnt challenging at all to hit M1 or M2 over and over and over again, it really just became lame by the end, they could have had it where when you get into it you hit 'a' and see Titus dodge a sweeping attack while going behind the ork, then hitting 'b' as he dodges another attempt and finally hitting 'c' to see him wedge his weapon into the guy or 'd' or shoot him in the face or something along those lines instead of the same animation over and over)

Also did anyone else find a lack of autosaves before cinematics that went into a battle and then having no option to skip them as you repeat the section over again when you die... it got really damn annoying at that last battle... i literally watched that damn summoning cinematic 5 or 6 times..

One thing that i was hoping so much for, but new was never coming was the ability to pilot the Titan They could have had an epic as fuck scene where your moving it around (as slowly as it would be) while shooting its weapons into hordes of enemies and vehicles (where were they?! - more wasted potential? another QTE could have been Titus jumping around a Killakan or Dreadnought and having to place a melta bomb on it... or hell, just having you shoot at it till it dies, cause you know, they give you a lascannon to fight.. infantry with?) .. and then ending with you having to shoot the spire.. Since Titus wouldnt be able to pilot it, they could have made it so it seemed like he was telling them where to go or something.. If not a titan, they could have put a Predator or landspeeder or bike or Razorback for that matter somewhere in the game to help you get from point a to b while adding diversity..

And did anyone use the vengence launcher ever? I know i didnt.. kind of a dumb gun to give a SM.. i mean when have you ever seen a SM with a grenade launcher? Their bolter is essentially just that, but more awesome and accurate..

Those are the major things i felt were lacking in the game. But it was still fun, and it seems like theres room for a sequel, so lets hope they fix some of the things people bring up. (Also calling it now, next game... Warhammer40k: CHAOS Space Marine ... you know its genius and totally new and intuitive :P)

[Shuma]

The grenade launcher sucked ass, it kind of worked in SP but in MP it might as well not be there, haven't seen a single guy using it and when i decided to try it i ended dead, dead as a skeleton.

And you can skip the cutscene.

[Ramrod]

*snip* in the chat *snip*

IOL Instant Messenger.

konfeta, that was my intention. Glad I got someone with it, mwahahaha!

I have to disagree with spartan_x, though. I thought the bridge battle supporting the Blood Ravens was a "GREAT MOMENT". And the train fight against the krooza, and the Valkyrie flight. There are some awesome set-pieces throughout the game, but yeah, I guess there were also some missed opportunities for yet more set-pieces. Next time.

I wouldn't have wanted Titus to pilot a Titan, though. The game is pretty faithful to the fluff. No reason to put in something that completely disrespects it, regardless of how much fun it would be.

Also, Lok, I'm not sure what platform you're playing on, but I skipped that video by pressing the use key (default E).

And no, Vengeance Launcher was pointless. I used it till the first clip ran out and never, ever picked it up again.

[konfeta]

The sequel should have a set piece where you use the Jetpack and assault a moving tank column or something. How many games would allow you to jetpack around and punch a tank battalion to death?

[Bastonne1]

I just finished the campaign, and it was fun. The boss fights... were anticlimactic and annoying. That's all I'll say about them.

On the invasion: In the beginning, it only shows 4 parts of a segment of the planet being invaded (one of them just HAPPENED to produce Warlord Titans). And considering the other parts of the forge world produced other machines (like Drop Sentinels, Chimeras, Basilisks, Leman Russes, Warhound Titans, etc), where were they? And how was there still an Imperial fleet after 9 days (not the one you come with)?

Wish there were vehicles to fight. I would've felt like a total badass if I could rip an Ork Dreadnought apart and smash the Ork operator in the face with a Thuner Hammer.

[ricolikesrice]

that crap game called Firewarrior had more depth and much, much more varied boss battles

thats a bit harsh, firewarriors end boss was just as crappy as space marines even if it wasnt a QTE.
what firewarrior had however is proper bolters - kinda sad that a game about tau has proper bolters while a space marine game doesnt - mind you i m nitpicking, i barely used the bolter anyway

anyway, more varied setpieces (combat against vehicles, better (mini)boss fights ), better level design ... i think the potential for a great sequel is there if this doesnt flop commercialy....the DOW1 and DOW2s vanilla campaigns were pretty meh apart from being 40k too .... but in the addons relic always improved massivly.

[KDR_11k]

A more elaborate QTE is still a QTE. I'd rather have the game use proper game mechanics for stuff.

They could have had you pilot the Titan, nobody says that you have to control only Titus the whole time.

[LoweGear]

Also did anyone else find a lack of autosaves before cinematics that went into a battle and then having no option to skip them as you repeat the section over again when you die... it got really damn annoying at that last battle... i literally watched that damn summoning cinematic 5 or 6 times..

Press Enter to skip a cutscene. Note that there seems to be a short "loading time" where the cutscene has to proceed 1-2 seconds in before pressing Enter works.

[Gorb]

of course it changes a lot, if a boss is hard to hit because he s quick / dodges alot / has hard-to-hit weakspots it takes the player a lot more "skill" (compared to hitting a immobile/slow moving/easy to hit boss) to go on the offense while at the same time still having to manage his defense - thats the whole "stress" thing i was talking about, which is a completely different level than a quick-time-event where you simply have to press the buttons you are told to press and i m not even sure why we re arguing this. maybe i / we are completely misunderstanding what you are talking about but (correct me if i m wrong / try to word your posts better next time) it sounds like you are seriously implying a reflex test where you press 3 buttons exactly as told is more or less equal to a dynamic event where you have to manage 5+ buttons, directional movement, the encounters environmental design , stress and many other factors ...

I think you're overestimating the complexity in a typical boss fight.

Furthermore, you are definitely misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am not saying that some kind of Dwarf Fortress/Portal Advanced Map challenge level of difficulty when transplanted to an FPS (. . . somehow) is comparable to a QTE. I am saying that killing a Daemon Prince that should theoretically two-hit you (one for shields, one for health - should hit like a Thunderhammer, no?) is a tediously boring affair that relies on you dodging his telegraphed attack and then frantically shooting (or meleeing) his advertised "weak point". Which is similar to a choreographed QTE.

shuma stated his opinion, he didnt write anything like "fact is" - you on the other hand did .

Please quote me where I said "fact is", ta. I do dislike it when people put words in my mouth to suit their arguments.

Unfortunately you can, at least in MP. Many a souls have fallen to the depths of the Hab center map.

I thought it was only Assault Marines that could jump down holes? Haha, oh man, that'd be a sight to see.

Additionally, a good writeup on the Daemon Prince scenario. You'd have trouble scaling it to Hard difficulty, depending on the damage variance going to Hard difficulty, but a good/great writeup nonetheless

[neoskeptic]

They could have made nemeroth's boss fight like Gabe vs Azariah. Badass daemon prince vs SM with a daemon hammer. He'd be invulnerable and you'd have to drop it somehow, but once that invulnerability drops you'd have to stun and execute him. (maybe 2-3 times, and all of them different and badass)

That might have been more satisfying.

[ricolikesrice]

The fact that roll, roll, shoot, roll, roll, shoot is comparable to a set of 'quicktime events' is another point.

there ? I do dislike people who cant even remember what they wrote 1 day ago and then accuse me of a behaviour they did - you cannot quote me on claiming "you can dodge roll of a cliff in space marine" like i cant quote you on your "fact". but i expect you already going into weasel mode because the "is" is 7 words apart from the "fact", aye ?

I think you're overestimating the complexity in a typical boss fight.

i ve been playing action games since the late 80s, what do you want to tell me kid - please share your insight in the action genre, i need more laughs equal to

The fact that roll, roll, shoot, roll, roll, shoot is comparable to a set of 'quicktime events' is another point.

I am not saying that some kind of Dwarf Fortress/Portal Advanced Map challenge level of difficulty when transplanted to an FPS (. . . somehow) is comparable to a QTE.

what do portal, dwarf fortress and FPS have to do with boss fights in the 3rd person action / brawler genre like Space Marine ? you clearly dont know what you are talking about.

Demon Souls, Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry and many more .... those are the games that would be comparable and where comparing boss fights with QTEs has to be a sad joke.

look i dont really care whether you enjoy QTEs or not, i personally dont, others do, who cares, the internet is for voicing opinions and you are entitled to yours just as we are .... but if you make up stupid "facts" or posts opinions that are similar to "earth is flat" then dont be suprised if people call you out on it.

and i tried to remain nice for 2 posts but when you completly ignore stuff like

in *good* boss fights there s more to it than simply timing your dodges.
you also need to look WHERE to dodge because a wrong decision could end your life (dodging off a cliff, dodging into another attack, etc.)

and answer with some lame

You can't dodge off of a cliff in Space Marine, ricolikesrice.

and then accuse me of twisting your words then there s a point reached where i m not really willing to discuss with you any further. i have children of my own for that kind of behavior, then again my oldest is 7, you are ?

[Imperial Honour]

I'm just going to admit that in general most boss battles are a bit boringly repetitive in their function, because they are usually the same rehashed thing from game to game as far as the gameplay mechanics go. You either end up with Quick Time Events, some repetitive mano-a-mano fight which tests your ability to avoid death blows while you grind down the boss' health, a sequenced boss fight where you have to do specific things in a specific order, a whole bunch of fights against the Boss' lackies in the lead up to the lead up to the lead up to the lead up of the big Boss fight proper, or if your lucky all of the above. I haven't seen a boss fight which has impressed me gameplay wise for a long darn time, but I cannot blame just one person or thing as it is a combination of issues which make boss battles in their boiled down simplicity largely "samey".

Could the fight with Daemon Prince Nemeroth have been better? Perhaps it could have, depending on your opinion. Would it have impressed me if it was different? Probably not, unless Relic found a way to push the barriers and come up with something new which worked successfully. Shuma's idea is well thought out and I commend him for that, but I've seen it done before and I'd be liable to get sick of it on Hard difficulty due to the occasional (or often) perceived "BS" factor of my enemies.

[Shuma]

Indeed, just like you said the problem is that one can hardly be original with boss fights now days. Another problem in this case is that there's just so much one could do with the game, after all the gameplay doesn't do anything "inovative" for lack of a better word, the game is just "good" but it doesn't go beyond that, let's face it, if it wasn't 40k no one would've bought it.

One big problem is the melee combat system, now don't get me wrong, it works and again, it's good, but the thing is that at least the way i see it, melee complements ranged combat, not the other way around, just look at MP, Assault Marines are good but unless there's a "pro" player using one Tactical marines and devastators will most of the time end at the top. I hope next game is something like 40k: Black Templars, then maybe we could get a more fleshed out melee combat system, and then we might be able to get some more interesting fights, involving parrying, blocking, dodging, more complex stuff than "roll and hit", one thing that i've always wanted to see and i don't think i've ever seen it done in a game, is that you had more control over your melee weapon and in a sword fight you could "overpower" the enemy simply by hitting his sword hard enough to send him reeling in order to get an opening, the only game i remember where you had that kind of control over a melee weapon was Star Wars Obi-Wan for the Xbox, but gameplay boiled down to "swing sword wildly until you win" and i suppose some Wii or Move games have this kind of stuff but i haven't played them.

That said, i can't imagine how you'd do it without well, using something like the Wiimote. But i have high hopes for the inevitable sequel, i think we all know it will have librarians, sorcerers, whatever, and that could bring some interesting shenanigans in boss fights.

[Imperial Honour]

"There's a QTE for that!" . Been thinking about boss battles for a while and I cannot think of a way of crafting one without using the same old gameplay elements at the moment either, for now. I do like the idea of somehow building up your Fury meter to use for one final overpowering finisher though. Personally I would not have been adverse to Nemeroth finish his transformation to Daemon Prince just as Titus arrives and then walking off in to the warp mocking Titus as the Inquisiton (Ordo Malleus) inconveniently show up. Sure you do not get to fight a Daemon Prince in an epic battle but you can use that to help set up the storyline for future games and bring back Nemeroth for the final showdown if, or when, someone finds a way to design a new and exciting boss battle set-piece.

Still Space Marine is an Third-Person Action game in a new and uncharted franchise so I cannot expect too much just yet, and at least the game is good fun and 40k. If dreams were to be reality though Space Marine 2 would either take the Imperium's Manufactorums to develop, or take until the 41st millenium to release. I just see so many things within the game and the setting which could be done but go unexplored though, I can't begin to fathom how costly it would be to have a well developed story branch for each decision in the campaign. I would love to choose whether to help the Inquisitor or not and thereby influencing how or when Nemeroth and his Chaos lackies show up, guess I got some kind of RPG 'decision making' craving going on. Which harks back to the question of when are we getting a 40k RPG?

--------------------

On an unrelated note I got some bones with how Relic decided to work weapon choices, at points in the campaign your second or third weapon slot has nothing to swap with (or you dislike the Vengence Launcher like it is heresy ). I am baffled at how some of the weapons swap around at times, like Stalker Bolters and Lascannons replacing assault weapons I wish to use. I admire the desire to force weapon choices on the player but sometimes it felt a bit odd, or some weapons were utterly useless for some segments of the game leaving you limited in what you could take anyway.

Going off the top of my head at the moment, but I remember not being able to take the Stormbolter with the Stalker Bolter or Lascannon in the final fight due to them sharing the same weapon slots (#2 IIRC). All the while I have the Melta Gun sitting in the third weapon slot doing nothing with not a gun in sight to swap it with, yes I do dislike the Vengence Launcher if that was an option. Why could I not swap the Melta Gun with the Stormbolter for crying out loud, it makes more sense in my opinion since both as close quarters assault weapons. There is the argument that choosing between Stalker\Lascannon or Stormbolter creates a kind of playstyle for you to follow but then you are limiting my choices, just because I could theoretically have both the Stormbolter and Stalker\Lascannon equip doesn't mean I'll use both but it means I have the choice to if I want to.

[Gorb]

there ? I do dislike people who cant even remember what they wrote 1 day ago and then accuse me of a behaviour they did - you cannot quote me on claiming "you can dodge roll of a cliff in space marine" like i cant quote you on your "fact". but i expect you already going into weasel mode because the "is" is 7 words apart from the "fact", aye ?

You did read my quote, right? The quote that you quoted twice. You read it, didn't you?

The fact that roll, roll, shoot, roll, roll, shoot is comparable to a set of 'quicktime events' is another point.

1. "roll, roll, shoot" is comparable to a QTE. Is it not? Those three actions, repeated until the boss is dead, is of a similar complexity to executed a QTE? Or do you disagree?

2. The fact is that two points are always comparable. This is English.

i ve been playing action games since the late 80s, what do you want to tell me kid - please share your insight in the action genre, i need more laughs equal to

I was playing computer games back when the dinosaurs were around, what's your point? Time spent playing games does not always equate to proficiency in design analysis when discussing games. Your condescending attitude isn't much better either.

what do portal, dwarf fortress and FPS have to do with boss fights in the 3rd person action / brawler genre like Space Marine ? you clearly dont know what you are talking about.

Demon Souls, Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry and many more .... those are the games that would be comparable and where comparing boss fights with QTEs has to be a sad joke.

I never compared those games to bosses ending with "quicktime events". The funniest thing is that Space Marine is meant to be accessible. From what I know of Demon Souls, it's a frustratingly-hard/nigh-impossible game requiring an experienced and developed knowledge of the game. I'm sorry, but Space Marine is not such a game. Space Marine is also not Ninja Gaiden.

I'll say it again; Space Marine is meant to be accessible. Hating on the inclusion of a QTE in a game, just because it's a QTE? You might as well say "lol well this is shit because I say so". Do what Shuma did; explain how you would improve the game. Don't retreat into your neckbeard and spout of references to how long you've been playing computer games for, thus implying that I should bow down before your opinions.

[Bastonne1]

@Imperial Honour: I agree with you about the weapons being forced on you, but you can switch different weapons out (to use your example, to have a storm bolter and a stalker-pattern bolter). You have to have the weapon you want to switch out out so you don't replace a different weapon (unless you are using the thunder hammer/exotic weapon when you are weapon switching, then you're just unlucky).

On the boss fights: Can we just agree that they sucked and that they could be improved? And instead of ragging on each other for certain things we said, figure out how to improve them in the future?