Major balance issue: ASM lose close combat fights with ranged units.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

Unless you get them from behind, you will lose in close combat to tacs or devs if you are using the chainsword.

The reason? Tac roll is faster and covers more distance than your jump pack dash, your dash attack doesn't stun, your "death from above" doesn't stun, and your chainsword takes almost twice as long to kill a dev as a dev takes to kill you point-blank with a heavy bolter.

It is too easy to kite ASM as tacs point-blank. Even with the basic bolter, asm are at a major disadvantage point blank with the chainsword because 1. they attack too slowly and it's much harder to land melee hits than it is to hold the reticule over the asm and hold the trigger down; 2. ASM vs Devs is suicide if the Dev has stomp, since he just stuns you after you jump/bomb him, and then guns you down in .3 seconds, and 3. tacs can easily just roll and kite, shooting all the while.

To balance ASM they need 1. more speed, especially on the dash attack. You should not be able to just walk away from an ASM once he is within arm's reach. They trade firepower for speed and melee, make the jump pack mean something when dashing/chasing after an enemy.

2. Make the ASM's dash/charge attack and "death from above" deal a stun for a couple seconds like the Dev's stomp. Dev stomp is currently the best melee attack in the game: a stun that actually works (the other "Y" attacks don't seem to be stunning the opponent, unless you chain 4 hits together and do the double stomp. What is it with foot stomps? Why not some kind of weapon attack?)

3. Make ASM immune to the stun of non-assault classes, especially Devastators. Devs should in no way be at a huge advantage in melee, and they are right now.

4. And most importantly of all - make the "X" attacks interrupt shooting, so the victim of the chainsword/power axe cannot just stand there and gun you down WHILE you wail on his face. If he can roll/dodge/ get out of the way, then fine, but point blank he has no business "not flinching" when getting hit with a fucking chainsword, and no business "not getting stunned" when hit with XY or XXY attacks.

5. It would be nice to have a lock-on feature of some type so ASM can chase enemies. If they roll to the side it takes too long to reposition the camera, and it's annoying to hack at an enemy unseen because he is "below" your field of view. Either that, or allow us to zoom out more so we can see what we're hacking at.


Playing as tacs and devs is fun, but ASM are seriously lacking and the thing they need most is melee power. They cannot match guns at all, ESPECIALLY up close. Guns are better melee weapons than melee weapons, and that is just wrong.

TLDR version: Add a flinch/impact firing interrupt to the melee weapons' "X" attacks that makes it impossible to hose them down WHILE you are directly under attack from melee weapons, make stun attacks actually stun, make charge attacks worth something, and take the stupid stomp stun away from Devs - or at least make it NOT work on ASM's.

The best close range weapon for DPS in the game right now is the heavy bolter, followed closely by the melta gun and then the storm bolter. Chainswords would be way at the end after bolters (you can actually out-dps the chainsword with the bolt pistol if your aim is good). Does not compute.

[GrIMDemon]

The only trouble i have when playing as an ASM/Raptor is if the tac has a frickin melta gun. It always seems to one hit me no matter what i do.

Just learn to love flashbangs. Can't really hit you if they are blind

ASM do not need a stun resistance. The Devs are basically a free kill if they cant get away; the stun is their only real escape/get away from lots of death

If you gave ASM an interrupt then all range classes would bend over. All the ASM player has to do is just sneak around land ontop of a group of people and swing like mad. If he can interrupt all ranged classes will be unable to fire back at him. The range classes will never EVER have a chance

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

They don't need to stun lock the other classes, just fuck up their aim or make them flinch/stop firing while they are being impacted with the melee weapons. ASM melee should interrupt ranged attacks, but not the other way around. Right now you can't cut them down fast enough, all they have to do is point and hold down the trigger and you die before they do - even if you charge into them and hack away. That's fucking stupid. There is no reason to fear ASM unless they have a plasma pistol and backup nearby. On their own, they are fairly useless to the team except as cappers. For direct combat - including close range - tacs and devs are both much better.

And yes, if he had an interrupt, the other classes could fire back - by rolling away and running, then trying to shoot him. If he closes the distance, then he should have a huge advantage. Right now his melee is only good IF AND ONLY IF you take them by surprise from behind and they can't gun you down in time. The melee weapons themselves suck.

Devs SHOULD be weak against ASM - they should have as much chance in melee with ASM as ASM have in a shoot out with a heavy bolter. That is, slim to none.

Also, I would make heavy weapons unable to shoot for a second after a defensive roll - normal "tactical" rifles like the bolter and melta gun could fire right away. This would make devs more of a heavy "hold this point" type of gunner, the tactical a "run and gun" type of firefight specialist, and the ASM would be super dangerous up close. Right now the Dev is the best in all 3 departments, with the possible exception of a melta tac up close. ASM have no outstanding strength.

[GrIMDemon]

Devs jump around last time i checked :/

Im not sure what to tell other then just mess around with your layout, your perks. ASM are really a great class. You can really screw a team up playing them. Im telling you man, Flashbangs!!!!

[Shuma]

I was going to make a long ass post, but after reading in more detail i just realized all of the changes you proposed would break the game, because then all the other classes would be useless against Assault Marines. A lot of what you claim is also wrong, the death from above thing does stun opponents, but only if you land pretty much on top of them, the heavy attacks i don't know, i never use them because they're too slow and what you want is speed, especially if you're using the axe weapons, which are slower but more powerful, but one of the perks makes them better so maybe they do stun with that perk.

The Dev is not the best in all departments in any sense of the word, first than all the reason his stomp stuns is because you know, it's his only defense in melee, and i believe it only stuns if you have some perk attached to it, secondly, if you stay put in some place and a assault marine attacks you, 9 out of 10 times you're screwed, and if you're running around and face a tactical marines, 9 out of 10 times you're screwed, the devastator is good but it's hardly the best out of all 3, if anything that probably goes for the tactical marine, but that's ok considering you know, fluffwise they are the best of the 3.

Assault Marines do have a great strength, melee, and they're pretty much devastator killers that you imply that they don't stand a chance against devastators is ridiculous, i suggest you stop trying to attack things head on with them, Assault Marines are like they are for one simple reason, if they were better, they'd stomp the other 2 classes into the ground.

and your chainsword takes almost twice as long to kill a dev as a dev takes to kill you point-blank with a heavy bolter.

Then use the Power Axe, it's much stronger. Or if you have the Power Sword, the power sword, i've only seen it once and i think it's OP because from what i saw, it's as strong as the power axe and as fast as the chainsword.

And like GRIM said, use the fucking flashbags, those things are an Assault Marine's best friend.

Edit:

Oh, one last thing. You have that gun for a reason, you shouldn't just rely on melee, throw grenades, shoot them, melee them, i've killed a bunch of tactical marines just by shooting them in the face as they backpedal from me, and when you get the exploding jump pack perk? That thing is the ultimate fuck you to your killers.

[Misiok]

Shuma - it has been confirmed many times that Power Sword is just a reskinned Chainsword with I think diferent animations though.

[Pocktio]

Tac roll is faster and covers more distance than your jump pack dash, your dash attack doesn't stun, your "death from above" doesn't stun,

Wrong. Every single one of those claims is wrong. Hitting an enemy with a jump landing stuns them and allows you to lay in. I don't think I've ever been able to survive when an ASM hits me with that. The dash attack similar stuns, you can't bring your ranged weapon to bear. Tacs can roll sure but you can shoot while dashing and it does cover the same distance.

Tacs have some of the best anti-ASM weaponry. Melta and stormbolter especially. You do realise your changes and claims equate to 'I want ASM to beat the other classes with ease' yeah? Especially shooting interrupt when hit by melee, seriously that is just stupid. If you are getting hit by a melee weapon you are *going* to die. It takes one or two well positioned swipes and you are a goner.

And just because devs have perks which improve their anti-asm ability doesn't make them the best melee in the game, at all. Currently most people are using the early perks which are ALL to do with stun improvements. The weapon perks are still being earned. As Shuma said you need to gimp your ability to act as a dev to counter asms reasonably.

While we are on it, why the hell do ASMs get an instant kill weapon? Why do they the best mobility? Oh yes, that is because they are designed for hit and run. Positioning of your movement and your strikes is key. The OP makes me think he is just jumping into the general area and swinging widly, getting killed and then coming to whine about it on the forum. I think this is well supported by the fact he didn't ask for help in how to counter the unit first, instead making a ragey balance post. Similarl evidence is that all his supposed buffs would just make assault unstoppable. If there was an actual balance issue there would be sensible options to consider, not outright invinciblefying the class because you aren't doing as well you think you should be.

Oh also, the dev stomp has a windup. Try dodging it

Oh and HB has the best close range dps? Lol, maybe when braced sure. Otherwise it's not at all.

TL;DR Asms need getting used to, try playing them more before assuming they are garbage.

[peer]

I'm having quite a bit of success as Assault using a thunder hammer. Even without Killing Blow, a perked-up Ground Pound plus a hammer swing kills anything short of an Iron Haloed Devastator.

[malklavious]

> I think this is well supported by the fact he didn't ask for help in how to counter the unit first, instead making a ragey balance post.

That's pretty much the OP's standard MO in the DoW2 forum. If anything his "ragey balance posts" lead to some informative tactics suggestions by others.

[Codex]

As a rule of thumb, if you think something about a game, e.g. ASMs lose close combat fights vs ranged units, go ranged yourself and roflstomp all over every ASM out there. If/when you find that the ASM know something you don't and are beating your supposedly unbeatable tactics, then copy what they're doing. That's how most people learn multiplayer games: observation and all that.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

ASM jump/slam does NOT stun enemy units. They sometimes DO flinch, but you also have a second delay to recover from the ground pound so it seems to cancel out. "XY" attacks also do not stun, at least not nearly as well as they need to in order to be effective, and the charging X attack is useless - you just shoulder ram the enemy and pass through him, and by the time you start swinging he's shooting you.

The changes I proposed would give ASM a chance to out-melee units who are using guns point-blank. If you jump on a HB dev or a bolter tac, you will probably die becasue all he has to do is turn his reticule towards you and hold the button down. IF you are hitting him while he fires it should make him flinch/interrupt his shooting. Not stun as in stop his walking/rolling, but ranged weapons should not be able to fire while under direct melee attack. This would allow players who are truly skilled at rolling to still have a chance, but will not allow you to stand right up to an ASM and gun him down WHILE he's wailing on you. It's truly stupid that guns are better than melee weapons in melee.

And yes, I HAVE used tacs to kill ASM point blank. I try to get close becasue he loses control over his ASM's movement a good degree since swinging with X makes you static, while I can just roll backwards and hold the trigger down and kill him. I was expecting ASM to be fucking deadly in melee, and unless they sneak up on you, they're dead. Tacs and Devs both beat them in close combat if they can get the reticule on them - which is not nearly as hard as keeping the ASM swinging on target, since there is no melee targeting system in place and it's easy to get "below" his field of view, firing all the while.

Also, pockito, the Dev stun is a true stun - you cannot roll/jump out of it, you are stuck in a stun animation while he guns you down. That is how ground-pound and the charge attack and the XXY attack from ASM should work, not the fucking Devastator, who has the best/only melee stun aoe in the game.

Once we can mod this game, we will have a chance to mix it up a bit, but for now, the ASM class is lacking anything to make it "better" in melee than other classes.

Oh and the stun grenades are indeed good - but the other classes get them too and can make much better use of it than you. It's far easier to nade an ASM who is coming down and just shoot than it is to nade and then get close enough to melee them to death before the stun wears off. Possible, but not likely; the stun grenade is a much better fit for tacs with meltas than for ASM.

[Shuma]

I don't know what to tell you other than "you're wrong" oh and

It's far easier to nade an ASM who is coming down and just shoot than it is to nade and then get close enough to melee them to death before the stun wears off. Possible, but not likely; the stun grenade is a much better fit for tacs with meltas than for ASM.

You should be throwing the nade in mid air or BEFORE you jump.

[Pocktio]

SM jump/slam does NOT stun enemy units. They sometimes DO flinch,

Then by your logic there is no stun in the game at all. Flinching is stun. Assaults flinch when the dev boot comes down. They are one and the same thing.

The shoulder bash is critical, it allows you to close and it causes them to flinch/be stunned. THEN you use melee. Or if the situation calls for it you can use melee straight away.

I try to get close becasue he loses control over his ASM's movement

}

I'm beginning to think you aren't even playing the same game as us. Getting close to an ASM is entirely the opposite of what you should do.

The changes I proposed would give ASM a chance to out-melee units who are using guns point-blank.

Wait wait what? You think it is unfair that getting shot point blank in the chest and dying is unfair? Seriously? Anyway, if you are that close you can easily out melee them, or should be. So that's a skill issue and thus irrelevent. Secondarily if you are chasing a HB dev face on you deserve to die for being an idiot.

I was expecting ASM to be fucking deadly in melee,

They are. They kill you in one to two swings. Just because it takes some skill and timing so as to not overextend and expose yourself to supporting fire does not mean they aren't deadly.

you cannot roll/jump out of it,

Yes, yes you can. When you see him lifting his foot you dodge. If you think it is unfair to not be able to dodge once you have been hit then I can safely say that is absurd. As with the dev stomp you cannot 'roll' away flinch/stun attacks, you are immobilised for a good few seconds. ASMs do have that.

Once we can mod this game

Good idea! Then you can make ASMs as invincible as you like.

The assault marine is an acquired taste. It's not a flying melee tank that auto-kills things it lands on. You have to think about who you engage, where you engage them and what counters they have. Do they have grenades left, if so what type? What weapon do they have? Are they in the open with lots of room to dodge? Can you directly land on them or do you have to rush through a doorway? You need to neutralise their ability to respond, as both the classes can counter you very well. Negate their ability to fire on you and you can cut through multiple foes. I've gotten a few triple kills with assault. It is possible. Though you are so potentially awesome everyone targets you, and there is a reason for that, ASMs hurt if they get stuck in. You need to cut them down before they can become a problem.

There are so many variables to consider, making being successful at assault alot more challenging that other classes. That the tac or dev is simpler does not mean they are better. It just means that currently, you and others who think ASMs are useless, need to play a bit more and get to grips with the class before rushing to conclusions.

[Mirage Knight]

On this whole ASM thing...with the way they are currently tweaked, they are downright LETHAL in the hands of a skilled player. Speaking as someone that typically plays as a Devastator / Havoc, I routinely get my ass handed to me at least 50% of the time by Lvl 15 and up players with Power Weapons, PP's, and Grenades. As a heavy, my only real counter is to go with a HB and Stance in a good firing postion and pray to God that the increased rate of fire can kill my opponent before he can hand me my spleen or turn me into tenderized meat. And now we have a call to give them tweaks that will make them an unbeatable class in the hands of a pro?

No thanks.

[Thorno]

Instead of asking the Relicnews community to fix things for you, how about you go to the official forums and whine about losing?

Or even better, why not email Relic directly. I'm sure your invaluable opinions facts will make more of an impact to the game if you do.

[Shuma]

What's with you and Assault marines anyway? I can't believe we're doing this again.

[Afoxi]

I'm pretty sure my aim was severely fucked up earlier when a TACTICAL Marine Melee'd me.

Me - Storm Bolter
Him - Stalker Bolter, no serrated blades.

We see each other at the same time, he charges me, I don't let go of trigger, guess whose shots started flying all over the damn screen?



Point is, I'm pretty sure ASM have the same ability if not on a greater scale, at least against tac marines.

[Gorb]

ASM are fine; typically once they start their melee combo chain, you're a dead man walking.

So doing all you can to avoid them before getting hit by said uninterruptable melee attack chain is probably the way the game is designed.

[Mirage Knight]

ASM are fine; typically once they start their melee combo chain, you're a dead man walking.

Exactly - the point is, as a Tac or Dev, to try and nail an ASM BEFORE it can get in close enough to start wailing on you. However, that can be an inherently difficult task given the fact that ASM are basically armour plated fleas on steroids that can also shoot you in the face.

[dd14]

As a heavy Tac class user, I think ASM are just fine. When confronted with an ASM 1 on 1, and depending on the range at which the conflict starts, I'll come out on top about 60% of the time. However, that is mostly due to the crazy amount of dodging and kiting I do. If I didn't try to avoid the melee attacks of the ASM class I would easily lose 80% of my confrontations. I think it's also important to note that dodging and kiting as a Tac is far from easy, especially against a good ASM or one with the Hammer (where you can get one shotted, i.e. no mistakes otherwise death). You not only have to roll in a direction your ASM opponent isn't expecting, but you also have to whittle down their armor and health as you're doing the kiting. Again, that isn't easy.

All of your changes would make the ASM class horribly over-powered. You seem to ignore the greatest attribute the ASM class has over the Tac and Devastator: mobility. An ASM can literally show up anywhere when you're playing as a Dev or Tac, and on big maps (all the maps are big...) they can circumvent most if not all of the major conflict areas and capture points that are undefended. The ASM is used pretty heavily right now on the PC version and I have seen many players use it with great success. Any team with more than four or five ASM absolutely dominates a ranged heavy team.

[konfeta]

That's weird, normally I see devastator/tactical with teleport heavy teams dominate.

Devastators who time and position well are unbeatable without grenades or snipers.

[Mirage Knight]

Any team with more than four or five ASM absolutely dominates a ranged heavy team.

That really depends on the skill of the players and the map, but I largely agree with that statement. Last game I played the ASM's would drop in front and charge me from a short distance and would immediately start eating Heavy Bolt rounds. A good player jumps right in your face from an unexpected quarter, which gives you little time to react and defend. If they have Flash Bangs and a Chainaxe / Power Axe, it's usually GG...and I'm starting to see a good number of high level ASM's and Raptors.

Devastators who time and position well are unbeatable without grenades or snipers.

When backed up by a Tac or an ASM / Raptor certainly. But a Dev by themselves can be fairly vulnerable to a smart, skilled ASM player that knows how to jump and dodge.

[Shuma]

When backed up by a Tac or an ASM / Raptor certainly. But a Dev by themselves can be fairly vulnerable to a smart, skilled ASM player that knows how to jump and dodge.

I would say that depends on the map, i haven't died to a single assault marine by playing a devastator in the basilica(? the one with the long corridor down in the middle and one extra corridor on each side) map.

[Mirage Knight]

I would say that depends on the map

I will definitely agree with you on that. Some maps and map areas don't lend themselves well to jump tactics.

[konfeta]

Hm, unlocked some thunderhammer and tried me some assault marine. They definitely kill players who are slow. The problem though, is Tacs who roll away and basically can't attempt to melee them again without jumping, which isn't always available.

Also, enjoyability of being an Assault Marine is inversely proportional to the number of Meltaguns on the map.

[KDR_11k]

Devs can't turn quickly while deployed with the bolter, they take a second or two. Land behind them and slash away, they're dead before they know what hit 'em. Of course don't try to fly at them from the direction they're overwatching, be a bit off to the side so they don't notice you launching. Also note that thing in your left hand, that's a firearm and you can use it. A loadscreen hint says the bolt pistol can instakill with a headshot once the enemy's armor is down which is quite likely if the enemy gets away from you after 1-2 swings. I got more kills with the bolt pistol than the melee weapons because the thing is really good for dealing with enemies at just-past-melee ranges. Or hell, shoot the thing while you're jumping. Haven't got anything better to do at that point.

BTW, the slam will knock a plasgun out of charge.

[konfeta]

The problem with trying to kill people with a bolt pistol is that they generally will kill you faster with their gun if they are shooting back.

Hm, got killing blow and tried thunderhammer some more - the one hit kill doesn't work half the time. What gives? And it's on enemies who didn't have any defensive perks. Also, anyone found a use for the Kick/Explosion combo?

Oh, and more importantly, is there a way to cancel sprint without taking another action? Every way to exit it I tried either did nothing or resulted in an animation based delay. Makes sprinting really worthless with a Thunderhammer as it costs you the time needed to swing every time.

[coldplay]

Oh, and more importantly, is there a way to cancel sprint without taking another action? Every way to exit it I tried either did nothing or resulted in an animation based delay. Makes sprinting really worthless with a Thunderhammer as it costs you the time needed to swing every time.

You can press back->forward and it will transition you into the walk without the animation delay.

I've read a bunch of the posts and thought I'd say two things:

Do not over-commit to melee attacks (as any class, really)
I see a lot of ASMs meleeing way too much and the devastator has the stomp/kick for a reason. Sometimes, if your target is not dead (usually a devastator) after a couple attacks, jump again and ground pound once more - he'll have a hard time dealing with that.

Bullrush (Charge)
I think people are underestimating the bullrush. It's not always your best option and it would be foolish to try for it all the time, but it can be a game changer (Furious Charge, too).

Great discussion, though... a little heated at times, it's great to hear what you have to say. Assaults were probably the hardest class to approach, easily... Trust me, there was a time when some of the changes the OP is suggesting were in the game and it definitely had the effects some of you predicted.

Disclosure: I was on the MP team

[Slade_Templar]

I wreck assaults with Tac all the time, and I get wrecked all the time with them; but I imagine I'll probably do a bit better with them once I hit 25 and can use True Grit... bolters are epic good.

Also I should give the hammer a shot, and maybe the bullrush too

[Mirage Knight]

Thanks for the post coldplay

I think you guys got ASM / Raptors just about right and I can appreciate the sheer amount of fine tuning it took to get them the way they are now.

[Gorb]

coldplay posts!

My second favourite class is the Raptor/Assault with the Power Axe (love the visuals) and whichever pistol takes my fancy (usually Plasma to wear down their armour). My favourite class is the bane of all classes - the Meltagun Tactical (with both Melta perks for awesomes).

I think you guys have done an awesome job with the game, and it shows in the MP gameplay (imo)!

[mcnostril]

Oh god I love True Grit.
It is the bestest.

One thing that annoys me about true grit is that the killstreaks you get with it don't count towards the Bolter challenges (which makes sense sort of, since the assault bolter doesn't have any weapon perks).

[ImmortalChaos]

I think melee damages are pretty much fine across the board, and I play the assault classes the most. You've got a lot of extra tools to bash skulls in the form of the jump pack. The boost attack (tap space-right click) catches things pretty easily if you miss your initial landing by a bit, and as coldplay mentioned, if things are going sour, you can easily jump and land again. Sprint -> furious charge (with or without the perk) is bound to catch someone who tries to kite you, since they can't sprint backwards. Be careful if they have room to fire, you won't last long against anything really.


The one thing I'm thinking might cause a problem for assaults in the long run is how juke-tastic the tactical classes' rolls are. It feels like a good player rolls away from my pounce every time, and when I land they have a second roll lined up... if I foresee it perfectly, I can maul them good and proper, but if I miss, I'm usually boned. It seems like the latter happens more and more often when it comes to good players. Once someone understands what an assault wants to do and doesn't panic, it seems a little easy for them to duck and weave, leaving the first mistake on the attackers part to lead to their sour ending.

[konfeta]

Bolter killstreaks seem broken overall. It doesn't seem to count any beyond the initial 3 kill streak. I've gotten 2 combined 7x streaks in one game, and... all I got for it was a tiny bar nodge on the challenge bar.

You can press back->forward and it will transition you into the walk without the animation delay.

Just tried it. Doesn't work. It's even worse because it physically stops you from moving without gaining any ground.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

I'll keep it brief since I'm going to bed: Melee weapons for the ASM/Raptor class should interrupt shooting while you are being hit. So, you cannot calmly shoot back, ignoring the power axe/chainsword to the face as if nothing is hitting you. It should create a "soft flinch" - not the same as a stun attack, where you can't roll or sprint away, but it should disable shooting for a second so you can't mow him down faster than he can chop you down. You want to kill an ASM up close, you have to REALLY work for it, kiting and rolling away, and if you screw up you're his. To do otherwise is ABSURD.

Think about what you're suggesting when you're saying that the lack of decent stun/aoe on the jump/slam and the lack of stun/knockback on the shoulder charge is "Fine". This is like saying that the bolt pistol should do equal damage with just as much accuracy as the heavy bolter. Why should it? You're trying to take on the ranged heavy weapon specialist in his preferred combat environment. You deserve to lose if he opens up on you and you try to plink him with the bolt pistol.

If the ASM gets close, the dev should be fairly fucked. His chance to win that fight is to gun down the ASM in the air, to cover likely areas of approach, and to have his teammates watch his back. The ASM's chance to win the ranged shootout with the dev is zero; his best course of action is to get out of the open FAST and try to find another avenue of approach. Why? Because devs do a ton of damage and have the best ranged weapons.

ASM need SOMETHING to make them competitive once they close the distance. Right now if you want the best close range character, pick a melta tac. You can always beat an ASM unless he gets you from behind with the hammer - but that's true of all classes really, since if you sneak up on them and unload your gun into the back of their head you can kill them just as fast or faster than the asm with less risk. ASM need a boost, they are lousy at range and mediocre up close. Tacs are beasts at range and the hands-down strongest close range unit in the game with a melta gun, after devs with a heavy bolter.

[coldplay]

Konfeta: You can only get one killstreak at a time. So if it's 3 or 9, it's worth the same for the purposes of the challenge... it'd be a little hard to track otherwise without it being weird (which, arguably, some find it so already, haha).

As for the sprint ending delay, I'll try to explain it better tomor, I gotta run.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

Coldplay, at least TRY the suggestion where melee hits knock aside your gun so you can't gun the ASM/Raptor down WHILE his is combo'ing your face. It is beyond stupid that a power axe or chainsword to the face doesn't mess up your aim or make you flinch in the slightest.

[Arad]

This thread reminds me of a discussion we had in the DoW2 boards...

Simply put, assault marines are best used as Shuma sugguested: Ambushing. If you land right in front of that tac/melta or dev, you aren't doing it right.

I also agree, the jump pack bomb perk is hilarious. I got a multi-kill off of it when I got bum-rushed by three raptors, which I think gave me more XP than if I would have killed them individually.

[KDR_11k]

It's only a few meters more to land behind the enemy instead of in front of him. Seriously, just do it. Jumping straight at a heavy bolter is silly and unnecessary.

Besides, you can get into melee range so easily that making melee an automatic victory for the ASM would crush all other classes.

A useful thought for balancing is that cries for nerfs/buffs should always come from the strong side of the equation. ASMs need a buff when devastators complain how easy they are to kill, not when ASMs complain about dying.

[Pocktio]

the dev should be fairly fucked

Except they shouldn't. This isn't DoW2. There are no hard counters. If the dev is skilled enough he should be able to beat the assault and vice versa. It's not a matter of balance, it is a matter of skill.

Also if an assault is landing blows on you he should be dying quite soon. Of course if you are engaging a tac, only swing once before hitting jump again. He will roll, you can almost guarantee this, so don't give him the option of space. Hit the ground next to his roll.

There are so many counters to what you are saying happens, yet all you do is continually repeat that you want to the assault class to be buffed. It's getting monotonous.

[konfeta]

The Vengeance perk is actually making me wary as to how addicting it is. It makes it very easy to trade yourself for 2-3 enemy player deaths. The only perk that can convince me to not use it with the Thunderhammer is probably the Jetpack cooling one, if it does what I actually think it does.

Also, for real, why are people surviving Killing Blow buffed hammer swings? It's not even a glancing blow situation, I've hit other ASM in the face as they were charging me and they somehow survived. It's really nullifying the entire value of the perk if I can't rely on it working when I need it to the most.

Konfeta: You can only get one killstreak at a time. So if it's 3 or 9, it's worth the same for the purposes of the challenge... it'd be a little hard to track otherwise without it being weird (which, arguably, some find it so already, haha).

That pretty much makes it the hardest weapon challenge, no? Three consecutive kills with a requirement for subsequent death... Hope the Bolter Targeter is worth it.

[KDR_11k]

Maybe the hammer didn't actually hit and the lag just made it look like it did?

[Codex]

Gabriel Gorgutz, you can't possibly say after the game's been out for this length of time that there's a major balance issue, already. You can't know the game well enough yet. Perceptions of abilities and perks have yet to settle.

To take an example of a game that utilises levelling up to grant perks and abilities, take Assassin's Creed Brotherhood multiplayer. At the lower levels, Smoke Bomb is the shit, and everyone uses it. People aren't really good enough yet to nullify it by doing aerial kills, or triggering assassinate from outside the smoke bomb range. Instead they just bum rush and oops, they get hit in the face.

However, once people actually start getting some skill it's not an amazing defensive ability used on its own. In team modes it's still pretty good, since a team can drop more than one at a time granting your team a decided advantage.

Contrast this with Mute, which doesn't stun the opponent like Smoke Bomb does but does prevent them from doing anything except walk/run. This makes it a pretty good defensive ability with a large range, except for the fact that it has a really short duration (1.5 seconds). So when I was looking up game guides for abilities almost a year on from when Brotherhood was released, every single guide I've seen has said "Don't bother" to Mute, since it requires that you actually know who your pursuer is before you use it. However, it's now my favoured defensive ability, even better than Smoke Bomb, which I've used much more in the past (Mute comes at level 24? Smoke Bomb 6.), especially because I've gotten good enough to figure out who my pursuers just through observation.

These days I don't see people using Mute much, only pros really. So I get to smack a lot of people in the face (and they do too). The point is, perceptions change with time, and people's ability to deal with things change over time. Everyone and their mother is using Smoke Bomb, so anyone with a bit of skill will crush you despite it.

Maybe you'll come across this OMGWTFPERK that will make ASM awesome. Maybe they are already awesome and you just don't know it yet. Just because in the past you've experienced ASM<tacs+devs doesn't mean this will always be the case.

[konfeta]

Maybe the hammer didn't actually hit and the lag just made it look like it did?

It most definitely did. The shield went off and the target can usually be finished off with a bolt round or two. It looks like on the main forums other people are reporting the same bug as well.

Also, +1 to codex. Some weapons/load outs are genuinely shit without perks. Once everyone is high level and has all the stuff, then we can actually start observing balance in the earnest.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

@pockito, devs hard counter everything except other devs right now, and they pretty much hard counter ASM with stomp plus a few shots point-blank. You are in MORE danger from a dev trying to jump on him and wail with your sword than you are trying to hide and toss nades/take pot shots from behind cover. This is backwards. The dev should be fairly fucked especially if he's dug in/braced and you jump on him and start hacking. Otherwise you might as well use tacs/other devs to fight devs, since you will almost certainly die if you try to use ASM on them. There is currently nothing ASM can attack devs with that is nearly as effective as a melta tac or another gun-using unit at mid to close range. Nothing.

I should also point out that if your entire class' effectiveness is hinging on using the right perk/build just to do its basic job, then that is the most damning evidence of all that your class is fundamentaly underpowered, if not broken. If there is only one or a few "right builds" that have to be unlocked by hours of losing/dying as a UP class, what fun is that for new players? A new player can get RIGHT IN to playing a tac or dev. They will be sorely disappointed by the ASM/Raptor right now until they unlock the hammer. This should not be.

@Codex, I agree that the game hasn't been out for very long but after playing for two days I can honestly say that ASM are weak. They do not bring anything to table except for a slow jump that is good for capping points and escaping combat in some situations - not exactly exciting stuff. They need serious melee power in order to make up for the fact that other classes have a much easier time killing things while remaining relatively safe.

Remember, people - ranged combat is superior to melee combat by default. This is why modern armies don't use swords and axes anymore. If you are going to bring melee combat into a shooter, as anything except a situational back-up attack, you MUST give it two quailities:

1. it must be absolutely superior to ranged weapons once you manage to close the distance. Interrupting/disabling gunfire for a second after the target is hit is a good way to do this, and a very high damage/wide swinging arc is another. Preferrably both, and

2. You must provide an effective means of closing the distance, preferrably superior speed/mobility. I know the jump pack can at times be advantageous, but the ground slam from the air makes you pause for too long before you can strike - and the enemy isn't stunned by it, I haven't noticed stun at all no matter what any of you say. Also, the shoulder ram doesn't seem to do anything special, and XY attacks do not stun opponents either. I also noticed that when I get hit with these things, I can roll out of it and start shooting regardless of whether I was taken by surprise or not.

I noticed posts on the official SM forums saying similar things, that ASM are underwhelming compared to the devs and tacs. I think relic may have made the same mistake with Assault classes in SM that they did a while ago with SM in dow2 - they were so afraid that they'd make the "fanboi" race/class overpowered that they overnerfed them instead, and wound up with something less than stellar. Please at least consider making these changes to ASM. Interrupting enemy fire with melee hits is absolutely essential to giving ASM dominance in melee - once they get that close, they should be dominant, as that is their INTENDED purpose. Right now melee weapons (except for the hammer) are in no way as good as point blank gunfire, and they should be.

[Shuma]

It sounds to me like the way you use Assault Marines is just jump all over the place and attack the enemy from the front by madly tapping the melee key, in which case, you're doing it fucking wrong. What you want to do with the Assault Marines would make them overpowered against all fucking classes. You sound like a broken record.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

Not at all. I flank, try to get behind them, and I try to chain XY attacks together hoping to stun them so I can keep hitting them. I also use the dash attack to close the distance when I can. We should play a match together sometime and I'll show you how I play ASM.

Also, jumping all over the place and hitting the melee buttons is what the class is supposed to do. If that leads directly to player death, then the class is broken by default.

Remember something: The one class that most ppl are looking forward to playing IS the assault class. The chainsword and melee aspects of Space Marine are a major hype/selling point. If people are routinely frustrated and disappointed with this critical aspect of the game - the thing that "sets it apart" from other over-the-shoulder competitive shooters like the Gears of War series - then they will leave Space Marine and play that instead. Making ASM fun and giving them something attractive/competitive to fight with is going to be essential for building and maintaining the player base for SM, when there are honestly other first/3rd person shooters that are significantly more polished in the "shooting" department.

[Ap0k]

Isn't there an ASM perk that does aoe damage around you when you lift off?

[Pocktio]

since you will almost certainly die if you try to use ASM on them.

Unless you know what you are doing, if you land right they recoil from you. Hit them with your sword. If they wind up a stomp dodge backwards then hit them with your sword as they bring their weapon to bear.

devs hard counter everything except other devs right now

If that was the case (it's not) then why are you whining about assaults not being all powerful. Surely if a dev is so unkillable (they aren't) you should nerf that class? Making one overly powerful will only replace the dev with assault.

they were so afraid that they'd make the "fanboi" race/class overpowered

It's a mirror multiplayer mode....

You must provide an effective means of closing the distance, preferrably superior speed/mobility.

Ok so jump back, shoulder bash and dash. Do you realise these things exist? If you aim yourself right you will be in their face and no matter what you say a closed in assault will beat a firing enemy. Unless they are a melta.

but the ground slam from the air makes you pause for too long before you can strike - and the enemy isn't stunned by it, I haven't noticed stun at all no matter what any of you say.

Their pause is much longer than yours. You can be attacking them well before they can fire on you. I've noticed that when I get hit by a melee weapon I am interrupted, do other people notice this? I try and evade for even one hit slows me down. The second part of that sentence...just wow. This is becoming more and more clear that it is a skill issue for you and not a balance concern. Just because you haven't been able to do it successfully does not mean it is broken. It just means you need to practice some more.

But, as usual, your post contained nothing but a repeat of your earlier posts. Do you have anything new to add or do you just intend to repeat yourself until somebody implements your changes?

I've been playing tons of matches where there have been an abundance of assaults and they actually do quite well. I could barely stop to shoot at someone before one landed behind me. So much for it being so frustrating that nobody wants to play it. Other classes are certainly more killtacular, but playing assault is different. It is a supporting class. You disrupt, you lol at unsupported devs and generally troll people trying to get to objectives. Leave the frontline fighting to the other classes. Get behind, get in the woodwork and touch them inappropriately with melee weapons.

[Mirage Knight]

touch them inappropriately

You use that expression (or variants thereof) a bit too much methinks