The Vengeance Launcher. Does it need improving?

[Arcinatus]

This weapons seems rather underwhelming in multiplayer, especially when comparing it to it's singleplayer counterpart. Depending on the opponent, it takes 3-4 shots / detonations to kill someone IF all of them stick. It they are not stuck to your target it takes more. Considering how long it takes to get these shots off, that seems slightly useless to me, especially if you don't have the opportunity to sneak up on your target. The splash damage is decent against health, but it suffers quite a lot against armor.

What are your opinions on this weapon? Is it underpowered? Fine the way it is? In need of a few tweaks? My personal opinion is that it could use a slight damage upgrade all around.


(I probably could have worded this better, but i'm running on no sleep at the moment. My apologies.)

[konfeta]

Are you using both perks with it? Without perks it is largely a support/ambush weapon. Haven't gotten the perks for it yet to test out how significantly they improve the gun, but I have seen Tacs use the thing to great effect with Vengeance Payload (whatever it does).

[Shuma]

Sucks, saw one guy use it once, he sucked, decided to try it myself, i sucked. Haven't touched it ever since.

Edit:

What do the perks do?

[Thorno]

Hate the weapon itself (even in single player where it is amazing), tried it once in multiplayer and thought it was shit. 3 detonations and still no kill? For how long it takes to fire and the potential for your target to, you know... move, pretty shite imo.

saw one guy use it once

I've only seen it used once as well.

[Caeltos]

I have a hard time believing anyone got the Vengeance Payload perk legit. The AoE is not very impressive, and it requires 3 PERFECT clean-shots to kill anyone. Considering you've only got (16/18) ammo, means you're going to run for ammo alot. It's a terrible weapon that doesn't really pack enough punch. The 1st perk that allows for +1 active is just pure defensive perk. You're not going to have 3/4 up at the same time in a offensive-matter;

It's decent if you want to zone someone, but you don't get kills that way tho =\

[ImmortalChaos]

I've been using it a bit lately (only 30 kills), and I don't hate it. It takes a bit of getting used to when to detonate(the firing arc exasperating the learning curve further), and from what I'm reading, not everyone has quite gotten it down yet. It gets me kills in 3 hits easily, and I think it might only take 2 direct sticks to kill someone without an Iron Halo/Icon. There are a lot of uses once you've got it down: It's pretty easy to stick a bunch of them on a corner and detonate when you see enemies come around, if that's your playstyle. It also boasts surprisingly long range; I've won in long range firefights against all kinds of bolters. Another great use is for against assaults- see them coming at you, stick three to the ground nearby and retreat past them. No one I've done this against has seen it coming, and it's very satisfying.

It really requires some fast thinking/creative use for it to be most effective however. Of all the weapons in the game, it's probably got the biggest ammo problems. I recommend taking it in a two weapon loadout(been using it+storm bolter myself). With the storm bolter run-n-gun style, I tend to find enough ammo to continue bombardment.



All that said, I don't think I'd complain if it got stronger- all the better for me using it.




EDIT: Also, yeah, expecting multi kills out of this weapon is ridiculous. My ratio is 1 multi in 30 normal kills. Same thing goes for the melta. I really don't like multi-kill weapon requirements as it relies completely on poor play on the enemies part rather than good play on yours. Only the plasma cannon has an OK time getting multis, if you drop nukes on bunches of people trying to capture points... but even then smart players will scatter.

[Arcinatus]

Vengeance Projectiles allows more active fusion charges at one time. I havn't gotten the second one yet...and I don't think I will for quite some time. All these multi kills are going to take forever.

[Shuma]

I'll third the "multi kill achievements suck" thing, only way to get them is by being lucky.

[konfeta]

Except for the plasma cannon.

Firing off a charged shot at the first point the enemy team is capping is always trololol. I highly recommend doing some practice games with a friend spotting for you to figure out the ideal shooting arcs/locations for every map.

Vengeance Projectiles allows more active fusion charges at one time.

So, 6 bombs? Should be easy enough to get the multikill challenge with that. Just follow the Demoman school of being a total dickhead.

[Carl]

Even the plasma cannon only works in that one specific instance for regular multi-kills. Outside of seize ground it just isn't happening.

The real issue with the Vengance is the fact that they have to be manually detonated, instead of on impact/proximity. The time it takes to manually detonate them is just asking for you to get shot to death before you have chance. If they detonated on impact it would actually be a nice littile weapon, the low damage and arkward trajectory providing a good tradeoff for the long range bombardment ability it gives.

[Shuma]

I can see the weapon being useful in some situations, the problem is that if you want to pair it with another weapon then you're sacrificing a perk slot, and if you run with just the weapon 9 out of 10 times you're going be useless in an engagement.

I guess i could see it being useful in seize the ground, you put them on a point and wait around until some poor schmuck comes around and you blow him up sky high, but technically you could also do the same with the Plasma cannon, and unlike with the Vengeance launcher, you're not completely useless with the Plasma Cannon and can defend yourself if an Assault Marine lands on your face. Kinda.

[konfeta]

The real issue with the Vengance is the fact that they have to be manually detonated, instead of on impact/proximity.

Huh? You can detonate them so fast they actually damage you mid-air.

[Exsus]

I discovered you can stick the grenades to allies, so I stuck up an assault marine and waited for him to go and melee some enemy. Good times.
Other than that it's pretty much usless unless you're using it for areal denial.

[Arcinatus]

What does the second perk for this weapon do exactly? I've yet to see it used.

Random side note: I'm thinking I should have bought SM for my PC instead of 360. Most of you seem to be on Steam...only 1 other person on my XBL friends list has this game. Le sigh.

[Imperial Honour]

Nobody around here tried running a team of Tacticals with these and the grenade load-out of doom? A good team can use the perked up grenades and the Vengence Launcher to wipe anyone and everything off the table since if you don't dodge the grenades you die, but if you do dodge the grenades then you end up eating Vengence Launcher mines to the face. ASMs\Raptors you say? Grenade(s) followed up by Vengence Launcher rounds to the face is the order of the day. Area denial can be a great tool on some maps, the middle on Manufactorum is a handy place to have a Vengence Launcher as you can clear out anyone hiding behind the crates (say goodbye ambush HB devs). The ol' Vengence Launcher may seem a bit useless at first but I am beginning to see more and more people use it effectively to kill, like on Waste Management where you can sit up top and pick people off at leisure (assuming one can aim) while they go dodging all over the place avoiding ASMs\Raptors. You can try rolling but rolling don't save you from two to three mines to the face (effectively a kill on at least a Tactical) if the chap with the VL can aim.

So yes I would say it is fine as it is since it functions just fine in the hands of a good team or individual, it might not see usage from everyone but when someone good at using one gets a hold of one then it can be a lethal weapon. It only needs some tweaking improvements if the ol' Grenades of Doom get some nerfbat treatment.

[Snakeb1te]

Hate the weapon itself (even in single player where it is amazing), tried it once in multiplayer and thought it was shit. 3 detonations and still no kill? For how long it takes to fire and the potential for your target to, you know... move, pretty shite imo.

To be fair that's the way I feel about most of the guns and melee. That's why I play private games with a group of 12 mates on half or quarter health. Melta guns and thunder hammers kill in one blow as they should, and boltguns dont need to fire until the end of the clip to kill something either.

[Sturmhaubitze]

I saw one Tac slap a bunch of them onto me, when I was playing a Havoc. He basically followed me along, waiting for an ASM to try and jump me, and detonated them in the ASM's face. That, plus my stomp, wiped them out before they could do anything to me.
He also tried putting it on a friendly Raptor, but the guy zoomed off out of sight, and he couldn't keep up.


I think the weapon has some potential, but the weak damage and blast radius needs fixing.

[konfeta]

Last thing this weapon needs is more damage and blast radius. It doesn't need to reload, remember?

[Jaimas]

It's way underpowered. The Stickylauncher of TF2, it ain't.

[KDR_11k]

Even the plasma cannon only works in that one specific instance for regular multi-kills. Outside of seize ground it just isn't happening.

I actually got more multikills in annihilation. Rarely because of charge shots, usually because I had multiple injured enemies near me and I could kill them rapidly with the regular shot of the PC. You don't have to kill them with one shot, just very rapidly.

[Arcinatus]

The matter of this weapon not having to reload is a moot point. It's low ammo capacity paired with it's lackluster performance make it a rather undesirable weapon in most cases. I suggest giving it a damage bonus to armor, and slightly more area of effect on it's splash damage.

[Carl]

@konfeta: Your alread having to try and hit a moving target, move around yourself rolling and otherwise dodging as much enemy fire and grenades as you can while trying to very accurratly place the charges. Detonating them as you place them is certianlly viable, it's also a pretty good way to muck up because your concentrating on yet another thing and fail to dodge a grenade or take more bullets than ushual. Eithier way you end up dead quicker, alternativlly you place them while dodge thwem and then detonate them once plaed, which is going to take more time than just plain blowing them up with a normal weapon.

@Imperial Honour: I don;t know what teams you lay wioth but a well coordinated team using all vengance l;uanchers is very uncommon, equally peole stupid enough to wander round the centre of waste managment on a regular basis aren't the norm. Nor is the sides and top unpatrolled. Yiour chance of sucsesfully pulling eitier strategy off are pretty slim, and homestly if you have that well coordinated a team the wepaon loadouts are virtually irrellevent. The coordination alone is such a huge benefit it outweighs anything else.

@KDR_11k: That may be true but it is very rare with ANY weapon to get multi-kills never mind with one specific weapon.

[konfeta]

It would appear that people need to play more TF2 to see the dangers of buffing this weapon class with anything related to weapon damage or explosion radius.

This gun can kill in 2-3 shots. That's already strong with a capital S.

[Imperial Honour]

What gamemode do you play though Carl? As Annihilation is a different kettle of fish to Seize Ground where the Vengence Launcher with master crafted grenades has more impact and usage, in my opinion. Ideally it would be balanced and usable in both game modes, but being one who plays a lot of Seize Ground I perceive possible imbalances with a bias to how it would affect Seize Ground naturally. Never underestimate the power that is "spamming" master crafted grenades to boost the usefulness of weapons, quite doable because Favor the Armoury gives you four grenades to use smartly (and no you don't have to use them all at once in case you were wondering).

Sure it does take some skill and co-ordination to saturate fights in such a manner that if one grenade does not hit another will, meaning death for many trapped inside the grenade trap as you can't roll anywhere. However, with master crafted grenades being powerful enough on their own when you pair them with a Vengence Launcher one has enough grenade saturation that even the Chaos Gods would be proud. The problem here is the combination of Vengeance Launcher with master crafted grenades, with the crux being the master crafted grenades. Forget that I mentioned eight Vengence Launchers, because you simply don't need eight as the opponent team was just taking it to the extreme, as you only really need a few at most to achieve even better explosives saturation (anything extra is bonus). Very handy for spawn camping on Seize Ground though once the enemy is forced back though as they will have trouble breaking out, if you do the job even half properly.

It also thrives on running about shooting and exploding the mines everywhere and anywhere as an extended cover denial, or anti-cover, weapon with or without airbusting them (forgotten if that was with Perks, will try to clarify). The weapon can practically churn out a good rate of fire (for what it needs to do), sure you might need two or three rounds to kill someone but airbursts rounds make such a feat easier despite rolling Tacticals or jumping Asssaults, and Devastators are boned as far as dodging goes unless they high foot it out early.

[Carl]

No it'w weak with a capital W becuase you'll never get kills as fast with this as with many other weapons wiothout leaving yourself vulnrable. It's strong only if you can tottally outplay your opponnent, at wihich point weapon choice is virtually irellevent.

Eitheir you detonate them after placment, taking longer to kill your oppobnnent but allowing you to dodge as normal, or you detonate them as you place them, but at the cost of spliting your attention more, and thus increasing your chances to miss or to not dodge so well. Eithier way your opponnent has a much easier time killing you than you have killing him in an even skill matchup. Sure if your more skilled then you'll win, but if you'd used sopmthing else you'd still have won and you'd have had an easier time doing it.


At the end of the day whilever you have to manually detonate them it's the ease of use that will always kill it next to other weapons. You don't have the range to snipe away at most opponnents from beyond effective retaliation range, which means you have to concentrate on all the normal combat factors in addittion to the new one of detonating things. And it isn't packed with some obcene damge dealing capability to componsate for this.

EDIT: @IH: Anihallate only, i've heard about the lag in seize ground and anihallate is bad enough as is, i've given up on playing more games today because of it.

[Jaimas]

Let me break this down in a quick-and-dirty fashion.

The damage it does is poor. It takes 3-5 bombs to actually kill someone, 2-4 if you're lucky and tag them directly with the charges. Because of how it operates, it's remarkably hard to actually kill someone with, especially Devastators w/Iron Halo and/or Feel No Pain (which together can tank like 10 shots), has very limited ammo, is slow, and with its low bomb-count is remarkably inefficient. There simply isn't anything it does better than other weapons - grenades are more powerful and easier to use and every class gets them, the Meltagun's more likely to finish a target off, the Stormbolter's more ubiquitous and the Plasmagun is far more effective at both close and long range. What that leaves the Vengeance with is chokepoint holding, which it sucks at because its blast radius is tiny and its damage generally sucks.

You want it fixed? Here's how:
1. Improve blast size. The game keeps insisting that players need to score multi-kills with this weapon's pathetically small blast radius. It needs a slightly bigger one, especially since the self-damage radius I get when I charged-shot Plasma Pistol a wall at close-range is only a little less. A small increase in boom size means a more-effective weapon.
2. Improve the damage so the goddamned thing is actually worth taking over the other weapons. I have never seen a situation in which a player was like: "Wow, the Vengeance would have been the absolute bomb right now!"

Do that, and the weapon becomes actually usable.

[Carl]

@Jamias: I agree it needs work but a damage or AoE increase is not the way. The thing does hit aceptably hard. Suibject to you being able to dodge around as well as your opponnent and aim as well whilst detonating the charges as they land this thing is a perfecly good weapon. The issue is that no matter howyou twist the wording you have to put more effort into the Vengance to get the same effect. As such in even skill matchups it's the worst weapon by far. Upping it's damage or AoE will not make it any easier to use, it will just mean that in uneven skill matchups it's OMGWTFBBQ IMBA, and still utterlly medicore in even skill matchups. The whole manual detonat thing needs to go. It's a cool concept but utterlly irrelevent and entierly a gimmik function. it dosen't serve a useful purpose in normal opartion.

[Jaimas]

Against Tacs the Vengeance is somewhat servicable, but dear Carl, it's not going to be used in an environment wherein other weapons handle mid-range combat better than it does. The Plasmagun can handle the same range with better effect and won't demand two perks just so it can be usable as part of the bargain.

[konfeta]

What if direct hits ignored the shield (i.e. charge hit the model and detonate after the fact)? Would that be acceptable? I am telling, simply making it a better explosive will just make the weapon overly dominant. Carl's suggestion of making it impact will just nerf it, you can detonate rounds faster than you fire them.

[Carl]

Konfeta, you can't nerf what dosen't exist.

I allready explained quite clearly why that capability is irellevent. Detonating them adds an extra step to things, it requires you to do more for the same effect, and it isn't some uber gun in terms of destructive potentiol, (it's also more adversly affected by missing the target). At the end of the day if your blowing them as you fire your giving up somthing in accurracy, (Costing you the kill speed required to win the shootout), or dodging ability, (Which means you die before you can kill him). Catch your opponent out or suprise him and sure you might actuially be able to do it since you'll be able to land and blow charges before he even reliases the danger. But otherwise, in the more normal shootouts that happen the ability is irellevent. The ability is the root cuase of why the gun sucks. Thats why i say get rid of it. It's a cool gimmick but it dosen't have any practical use in normal play, and is a major disadvantage in a normal shootout.

[konfeta]

At the end of the day if your blowing them as you fire your giving up somthing in accurracy, (Costing you the kill speed required to win the shootout), or dodging ability, (Which means you die before you can kill him).

Still not seeing it how a button press that you do between shots (without affecting the rate of fire) accomplishes that.

[Carl]

Unless your some mutant freak with an insane number of fingers your having to move a finger around, the R key also isn't in anywhere near as easilly rechable place on the keyboard, (you can and i do have fingers resting over the W, A, D, SPace, and SHIFT keys), on top of that your having to press that button IN ADDITTION to everything else youd do wuith any other weapon, it's one more thing you've got to think about and worry about and remeber to do, and otherwise use mental concentration on during a fight. If iot requires a thought beyond, Aim, Shoot, Dodge, Throw Grenade it's and extra bit of brain power you've got to dedicate to whatching, no matter how simple it is thats going to cost you brain power, and given you don;t want to you know, blow yourself up, and yet want to detonate it as son as it lands it's not exactly a zero brainpower thing. And thats before how it effects your key usage.

[konfeta]

I'll grant you that R to detonate is uncomfortable (can't D and R at the same time; though I wouldn't say it's "not easily reachable"). But this game has rebindable keys, and I can most assuredly tell you that the act of detonating a mid-air projectile isn't particularly draining as a mental task. Every Assault Marine has to deal with a significantly higher strain due to three dimensional movement and having to figure out enemy firing arcs before jumping to melee at someone.

[Carl]

Perhaps a bad choice of words here, i was writing fairly late at night, my point was more A) it's not a key you reguarly have to press with any other weapon, as such it's not as much a muscle eflex key, and B) it has you move your hands position on the keyboard making press some buttons slightly more arkward and disallowing certian keys. It's not much but every littile thing is vital in an even matchup.

As for concentration. Seriously, your trying not to blow yourself up here, you can't just allternatlly hamer fire and R as rapidly as possibble. And if you miss you've got to try to detonate it at closest approach whilst at the same time detonating it as soon as it hits if you hit. hat requires you to track the projectile vishually and anticipate where it will be in X fractions of a second reletive to you and your opponent and then make a judgment call based on that. Thats far from trivial as you put it. On top of that where not comparing a tac with vengance to an assualt here, where comparing it to another tac with an alternate weapon choice. In that respect the whole track the projectile and detonate it at the optimal moment is an extra in addittion to the norm for any other weapon.

Incedentlly i agree the assualt is a more mentla intensive class TBH, it's why good ones are so rare, and so aggrevating when theydo appear, (a good Assault really can make up for bad teambalance because a well played assualt is damm near impossibble to put down without multipule players ganging up on him in my experiance).

[konfeta]

Well, I played several games exclusively with Vengeance launcher. On direct hits it does just fine. Though, I am going to agree that for AoE purpose, it's weak - not enough ammo, and attempting to hit multiple people with a singular detonations spreads the splash to thinly.

It's redundant as a single target weapon and too weak as an AoE weapon. As a trap weapon, you need 5 detonations to reliably kill a single moving person.


Oh, lawl. The Vengeance Payload perk doubles its ammo. Yeah, nevermind about me defending this weapon. It basically takes 2 perks to bring it to basic bolter functionality.

[Carl]

I'm actually mellowing a bit today towards this. The games been getting more laggy with every passing day for me and this seems relitivlly lag resistant, probably because it can allways do some even if it's not dead on target. Might not be much, but when a quater clip of SB fire hits nothing but air despite a good aim you kind of need it somtimes. Not so hot in low lag games, but they're getting rarer by the day too.

[ImmortalChaos]

Getting a bit more gameplay in with the thing (even got a few mid-air detonation death from below kills ), and I only really feel outclassed against devastators with iron halos. The extra hit they can take is just enough for them to turn around and completely own me, even when I've started shooting first.

Other than that scenario, I feel the weapon is quite potent. The only change I would personally push for is making all your charges go off when you die. It really sucks when you plant a bunch at your feet only to get whacked by a hammer and killed before you get a chance to reduce your assailant to smoking boots. I still haven't unlocked the multi-kill perk (or even gotten 5 multi kills) but the one that allows extra mines isn't as bad as I thought it would be. Not sure if I'd consider it over another perk though.

[Carl]

The extra hit they can take is just enough for them to turn around and completely own me, even when I've started shooting first.

I find that if i get the drop on somone you should, (if possibble), load as many on as possibble before detonating them, people often don;t realise what they are or even that they're there in my experiance. I do agree about the on death detonation. Still thinking on what it might need beyond that. Detonate on impact is losing it's apeal. Not so much because of anything i find myself able to do with that, but just because, with the way it's performing in laggy games i don't think it's as far off as it often feels in the low lag games. My experiance there is saying it might actually become too powerful if it was any easier to use, can't specifiy why, gut feeling i'm begining to get.

[Imperial Honour]

Well I don't know what I'm doing differently then everyone else, playing Seize Ground as usual bearing in mind but I get a lot of kills from actual combat interestingly, but I'm walking around getting killstreaks with the Vengeance Launcher despite the fact I've been playing games with Dolts in the UK. Sure I occasionally accidentally trigger a couple of the mines early by accident, but most times I seem to be on the money with detonation. Using the aforementioned Master Crafted\Favor of the Armoury with Vengeance Launcher build I mentioned before as lethal combo I haven't finished with any less then eight kills so far, and when it comes to Seize Ground I can keep people off points capture duty too which is valuable. I do kind of die a lot but that happened to be the latency from Australia to UK as I kept getting killed by Lascannons more then anything, if it were a low latency game I would have been behind safe cover as I thought I was at those times. It could be the people I'm being matched against, but they can't all be that bad since I use it over a multitude of levels and games.

As I previously mentioned Master Crafted Grenades can help a lot to kill people outright, but they sure make some useful movement controllers too. Most people have learnt to get out of the way of Master Crafted nades when they can, unfortunately for them I quickly adjust to which way they are evading and kill them with a bunch of airbursting mines to the face. Master Crafted nades for the harder targets like the Devastators with Iron Halos and Vengence Launcher rounds for the softer Tacticals and Assault chaps, or to finish off the Devastators if the nades don't do it completely. I do love taking on Heavy Bolter Devastators as if they lockdown they become sitting ducks for some nades and if they move their DPS goes down and I can splat them with the Vengence Launcher. Thing works like a quasi-shotgun at times, get in close and let rip with the airbusting to everyone's face, and try and avoid friendly fire on yourself (but if some ASM wants to kill me I'll gladly take him with me). Following people around higher priority targets is especially fun as everyone focuses on them while I blast them away.

My current build with the Vengeance Launcher might be a bit less powerful if Master Crafted with Favor of the Armory were to be tweaked to be less effective, but as long as the help do the job against Devastators and act as area denial to enemy movements I believe I could compensate with more airbursting mines to my opponents and their heads. I still think you have to be careful what tweaks you do to the balance of the game, especially if\when the meta-game chances since without Iron Halo I could also kill Devastators quite well just with the VL. But if the weapon does get improved then I only have two words to say "Vengeance time!", only fitting someone imagines a maniac Chaos laugh after saying all that . Perhaps I'll see some of you in multiplayer and possibly be able to show you how I operate with it.

[konfeta]

It's not hard to get kills with it. It's decent at killing single targets... its just that other guns do it as well or better.

Also, any time you say a gun is good because you use MCF/FotA with it, a puppy gets eaten. You could literally ignore your gun the whole match with those two perks and still end up with a 10+ kill count every game. In fact, you will probably do better than if you tried using a gun because you would waste less time trying to be cute with plasma/bullets and more time throwing pocket Earthshakers the Kasrkin lent ya.

[Jaimas]

Add me to the "Screw Multi-Kills/Killstreaks" group.

The number of players I'm familiar with who got Bolter Targeter the fair way as opposed to bumping I can count on a single hand.

Ironically, my best Killstreak thus far is for the Chainsword; 22 kills, though the bonus capped at 10.

[Imperial Honour]

That quite true about the combination of Master-Crafted with Favor of the Armory, why bother running around with guns when you can throw tactical nukes and rank up Bolt Pistol against anything that survives (because it is likely almost dead anyway). Normal Nades can do the job too, but you have a harder time knocking off Devastators with toughness perks, since they are still handy for damage and two can knock out weaker targets (like them Tacticals). It creates a nice synergy, despite tactical nukes being great on their own, and blind nades aren't a bad choice either to pair with it.

Not sure about damage improvements though lest I start killing those without armour improvements in one or two airbursts, because frankly unless fighting at longer ranges I'm usually hitting the target. Since I can't think of any ways to improve the weapon personally at the moment I guess we'll run with what we have already, if the VL does indeed get some improvements. As much as it possibly does need some improvements I'm trying to be reserved a on the matter for once, since I don't want it being the next overpowered thing, actually who am I kidding more death and glory to me if it does. It'll possibly get buffed anyway if community consensus is taken in to account, so I might as well just shut up and be happy if it does since I already like the weapon as far as the weapon goes, lore-wise it is still a techno heresy though .

The ammo improvement perk is a real pain in the backside to get though, who thought of that challenge? Better be obtainable in co-op or else I will almost never get it "legitimately" the way I'm going with multi-kills. Which limits me when it comes to trying to run the thing with the ammo perk to make up for a possible lack of grenades, since I would preferably want more ammo when running without grenades when trying to try out other builds.

[konfeta]

It just needs to have about double the ammo by default. More damage will make it two shot tacs/assault, more AoE will make contribute to the already bullshit amount of explosive spam.

[Imperial Honour]

Well that's easy to agree with, especially with how annoying it is to get the VL's extra ammo perk. Especially since sometimes you cannot rely on picking up ammo from dead bodies, so ammo can be quite the annoyance at times. Couldn't care less about the VL's "more active fuses" perk with the way I'm constantly firing and detonating the mines, probably a use for that in more ambush\trap oriented playstyle.

[Carl]

@IH: I've gt to agree with others here that you could probably get a lot more effect out of another weapon, normally. That said if your playing in a game with the kind of latencey your doubtless having, (even if your not majorly lagging), that said in even playable , (but noticable), levels of lag i find the vengane is a bit of a death gun compared to others. Even if i don;t directly hit, they tend to land near enough my opponnent to do some damage to them. That said it is slightly weak.

Afetr more playing i think there's a few things i'd like to see.

1. a moderate increase in ammo capacity, the thing just dosen't have enough ammo somtimes. Ushually it's enough, but not allways.

2. An increase in the base number of maximum charges from 3 to 4. Again 3 is ushually enough, but not allways.

3. Completly redesigned perkks, I'll throw a few idea's out below, but simply put. ATM the Vengance luancher feels a lot like the un perked bolter. Namely it's not bad when it works, (i.e. you have enougb ammo and can lay down enough charges for your needs), but it's just a baby step behind everything else. The problem is, unlike the bolter, the current perks don't provide the same significant effectivness boosts. Their efects are useful, (as my first two suggestions make clear), but they'e situational. They're not needed every single time you shoot somone with it, or even every single match you use it for the duration of. The Bolters perks are permanant upgrades across all situations.

4. As suggested earlier, let the charges detonate after we die, (eitheir immidietlly or after a few seconds), Also a way, (Maybe E since MP dosen't use it), to detonate all currently active charges would be nice.


Perk Suggestions, (pick any 2 obviously):

1. The most obvious is to take a page out of the bolters book and give better base damage from a perk, weather that should be On hit only, on AoE only, or a bit of both is debatabe, though given it's current effective range for me i'd be against and actual increase in AoE radius.

2. Another idea i had was inspired by an effect i've allready observed. Having one of these explode on you tends to really throw a lot of people off and diorientate them a bit. How bout a perk that extenmds that by making it afect anything inside the blast AoE with a very short duration, (0.5-0.75 seconds max or chaining would get really OP), flash bang effect.

3. Mabe change the extra active charges perk so it gives less extra charges, but adds a burst fire effect, letting you lay down 2 or 3 charges in a spread shot effect, (Should be too wide though to keep max range there), on each trigger pull.

4. A perk to turn the charges into proximity fused forms, instead of detonating instantly when activated, (i.e. pres R), might also be intresting for extra utility. Possibbly a bit too good.


Thats more or less it. t's a good weapon, but it's got some very situational perks and it's perks don;t componsate forthe fact that it's a hair behind most other guns, lag not withstanding).

[Steel*Faith]

The gun is great when compared to other default weapons, but when the other weapons get their perks unlocked, it doesn't compare I think. Both of these perks for the Launcher suck to be honest. I think they need a perk that makes the charges have a wider blast radius, and another perk that both gives you more ammo and abiltiy to lay more charges combined into one perk.

[silencer]

well I like the vengeance launcher,
I do not use it often but when I do I mostly end up doing really well
I do not use it's perk as I don't have them yet
and yes I believe it needs a wider blast radius, but for now, I think it's a good gun once you get used to using it, using it the right way.

[Nightwolf]

How can you even play with such a fake weapon? The game is called space marine for godsake.

[Jaimas]

I kind of like the Vengeance, but everything it does is handled better by other guns. If I want better damage, I grab a Plasma Gun. If I want AOE, I go Devastator and grab a Plasma Cannon. As it stands, the Vengeance launcher is hilariously underpowered (Takes about 3-4 grenades to kill someone on average) and the blast radius is absolutely ridiculously small. Buff the damage and AOE a bit, and this gun goes from piece of crap to win-tastic, and will see a lot of use, both for defending strategic points and in actual combat.

Naturally, because this makes sense, it won't be done and will be opposed religiously by certain users here who shall remain nameless, despite the fact that, by all accounts, this is a no-brainer.

[Steel*Faith]

Giving it a damage buff is a bad idea, but giving it a better AoE is definitely need with a perk. The damage is already great. A lot of times you're attacking players who already have some damage on them, and you can take them out in 2-3 blasts (4 blasts needed to killa full HP player). The only problem with this gun is the shitty perks.

Right now I'm using Vengeance Launcher, Master-Crafted, Favor of the Armory - best damn class in the game for killing multiple players at once.