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Plasma Cannons- should they have reduced accuracy if fired whilst moving?

  1. #1
    Member BigSteve's Avatar
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    Plasma Cannons- should they have reduced accuracy if fired whilst moving?

    Title says it all really, do you guys think the Plasma cannons accuracy should drop if its fired while moving/strafing?

    Its super fustrating getting gibbed by around the corner peek-a-boo C*nts.

  2. #2
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    No, really....
    Won't help, will just make surviving them a bit more chance based.

    What they need to do is make regular shots take up 5 ammo. The most ridiculous aspect of the Plasma Cannon is that after you fire 4 tactical nukes you can still shoot 40 very powerful projectiles. There needs to be an actually legitimate cost to using the trololol nuke.

  3. #3
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    There is a cost, it's called an age to charge t up. Unless you know where somone is in advance so you can charge it up in preperation the nuke function is pretty much usless. The real issue with the thing is that it's still able to kill you without charging quite fast and is a weapon that benefits very heavily from team coordination, far more than anything else.
    I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.

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  4. #4
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    No, really....
    Unless you know where somone is in advance so you can charge it up in preperation the nuke function is pretty much usless.
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  5. #5
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Konfeta you can't see what isn;t there. Only a handful of map locations have the right sort of mid range area's where you can see somone walk around a corner and have time to charge up before they get too close or kill you, or both). Most parts of the vast majority of maps don;t allow you to see things far enough away to get sutiblly charged without also giving the enemy a vast number of sniping opportunities.

    The whole plasdev issue for me is that even with basic shots it's a very powerful weapon, better than any non-dev weapon, yet can be run around with at fairly high speed by comparision to other dev weapons, in a run and gun style. One of the big things Dev's are supposed to give up for their raw firepower is mobilit, but with the plas cannon i've seen [plenty of dev's running around like crazy kicking the snot out of everything with supiriour ranged firepower.

  6. #6
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    No, really....
    You don't fire a charged shot on people who are looking at you. That's what primary fire is for. Charged shot has plenty of opportunities for ambush and artillery bombardment on every single map except perhaps the Habitat one.

  7. #7
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    You don't fire a charged shot on people who are looking at you. That's what primary fire is for. Charged shot has plenty of opportunities for ambush and artillery bombardment on every single map except perhaps the Habitat one.
    Oh i agree it's great in ambush, or other suprise tricks, but thats not where the plas dev balance issue is IMHO. It's with the ones running round tac style gunning down everything that moves with their supiriour firepower, (and typiclly durability too).

  8. #8
    I agree that 200 shots for the regular semi-auto fire is waaaaaaay too much but it'd be silly to make regular shots take 5 ammo, just show the ammo count as 40 and have every charged shot eat 8 ammo then. Same deal but the numbers are easier to read.

    I'm using the improved cooling perk and I can fire the cannon like crazy. Yeah, the charged shot is slow (and fine that way IMO) but the uncharged shots are somewhere between a rocket launcher and the BFG in Quake 3.

    Inaccuracy wouldn't really do much against the run and gun BFGing though, I aim at the ground below my targets and the splash damage kills them just fine. You'd need insane inaccuracy to make that not viable and then you can just as well block shooting entirely.

    Not really sure what could be done, making the thing deal less damage would just feel bad as it already takes three of those fairly large explosions to kill a target, more than that would look ridiculous. Reducing the rate of fire or the "clip size" might help.

  9. #9
    Plasma Cannon shouldn't be able to be fired while moving, and the amount of normal shots it takes to overheat should be reduced. The way it works currently is just incredibly stupid; especially when you take FNP and IH. You don't even have to be afraid of people up close you just aim at their feet and hammer away hurting them and yourself, but you have more health so you win. Also, killing yourself should give the last person to damage you credit for the kill.

  10. #10
    IMO, charging the plasma cannon should dramatically reduce your speed (maybe 50% slower) to make it harder to charge a nuke and pop out from behind cover. Other than that, they might have a bit too much ammo, and I can see a change like KDR_11k's working. Maybe 100 ammo, 1 for a normal shot, 10 for a charged one to be a little less harsh.

  11. #11
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    No, really....
    Maybe 100 ammo, 1 for a normal shot, 10 for a charged one to be a little less harsh.
    1/10 with 100 pool would actually be a buff. That's 6 charged shots and 40 regular shots compared to the current one, or 10 charged shots compared to the 5 current ones. You don't want to encourage even more spam.

    Significantly reducing ammo is a good first step - Heavy Bolter is the sustained suppression gun; while Plasma Cannon can fire for longer and kill more people at the same time, so it needs to be brought in line that way. Another good step would be to increase the time it takes to cool down the gun to allow players windows of opportunity to take the PCDev down.

  12. #12
    Oh, my bad, I had it in my head that the charged shots took 20, not 40 ammo. So I'd say 1 ammo regular shot, 20 for a charged one, and 100 total ammo.

  13. #13
    Member TDATL's Avatar
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    One thing they could do is remove the ability to vent heat and make the button setup like the heavy bolter. Then the rate of fire needs to be adjusted. It is way to easy to spam.
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  14. #14
    Persnickety South African Mirage Knight's Avatar
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    Significantly reducing ammo is a good first step - Heavy Bolter is the sustained suppression gun; while Plasma Cannon can fire for longer and kill more people at the same time, so it needs to be brought in line that way. Another good step would be to increase the time it takes to cool down the gun to allow players windows of opportunity to take the PCDev down.
    Definitely agreed there. Currently it functions too easily as rapid fire artillery, making HB's a bit redundant - save for the fact that at least PC's can't shoot ASM out of the sky too well.

    One thing they could do is remove the ability to vent heat and make the button setup like the heavy bolter. Then the rate of fire needs to be adjusted. It is way to easy to spam.
    I like that idea, but Relic's made it fairly clear that bracing will not happen with PC's or Lascannons. The sad thing is that requiring setup for all Dev / Havoc weapons (except BP's of course!) would seem to be a good first step at balancing said weapons out.

  15. #15
    How about bracing to charge the plasma shoot? It makes sense, you brace for the raw power of terribly hot plasma :P also, allow to shoot on the move/unbraced with normal, uncharged shots just like it is now(basically function similarly to a HB).

  16. #16
    Doesn't charging the plasma nuke already slow you down to a crawl? Maybe it could just be done so that it slows you down more.
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  17. #17
    It does, but I thought that would be better so Plasma Devs won't be able to do a peek-a-boo-in-your-face-plasma thing.

  18. #18
    Plasma cannon is not enough risk for too much reward. Even if you don't know if anyone is behind a given corner, you can charge a shot, peek around, and if no one's there press r to cancel your charge. Bracing to charge should not be needed, just make it that charging reduces movement speed to 0.

    I also think the plasma cannon should do more self damage. I'm fine with tacs not being able to counter plasma devs, but the amount of times that I jumped behind a plasma cannon as ASM and still died to 3 point blank shots while his armor barely dropped is ridiculous.

    Also +1 for ammo reduction, my version would be 50 ammo and 10 per charged shot.

  19. #19
    The plasmacannon needs to behave more similarly to a heavy bolter. Specifically, itshould not be very good while running around unbraced. Otherwise, they're just high-health tacticals with better guns.
    Last edited by Demonic Spoon; 15th Sep 11 at 9:12 AM.

  20. #20
    Persnickety South African Mirage Knight's Avatar
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    It does, but I thought that would be better so Plasma Devs won't be able to do a peek-a-boo-in-your-face-plasma thing.
    Good point there. I'm really starting to detest this.

    I also think the plasma cannon should do more self damage. I'm fine with tacs not being able to counter plasma devs, but the amount of times that I jumped behind a plasma cannon as ASM and still died to 3 point blank shots while his armor barely dropped is ridiculous.
    +1 for that post. About time someone brought this up. If I can die to badly thrown grenades, I should die to badly aimed PC shots as well.

  21. #21
    Relic Entertainment coldplay's Avatar
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    Kam!kaze: I also think the plasma cannon should do more self damage.
    It deals the same amount of damage to enemies as it does to the user - just like grenades.
    Last edited by coldplay; 15th Sep 11 at 2:19 PM. Reason: proper quote, yo!

  22. #22
    That wasn't me you were quoting.

  23. #23
    The only reason the user takes less damage is because the impact is usually closer to the enemy. Also Devs have perks to buff their armor and decrease the explosion damage they take so they can take more backsplash overall. I still die to plasma shots if I try to fire at an enemy who's meleeing me (I do that because I'm going to die anyway, might as well take him with me).

    The charge shot is perfectly fine IMO. It has very limited ammo (5 shots without perks and you only recover 1.25 per ammo pickup), takes a lot of time to charge and is basically only for blasting a known enemy position. It can stay exactly the way it is.

    It's only the rapid fire that's overpowered. You get 4 shots before it overheats and 3 will kill an enemy. With a perk you can get 8 shots before overheating. You also have 200 rounds for that fire mode. That's nuts.

    The weakness is that like any rocket launcher the plasma cannon isn't too useful if you can't shoot it at a surface near your target. That's usually when the enemy is on high ground.

    Maybe the PC could be forced into more of a support role by giving the small shots a significantly longer shot interval but cause disruption so targets hit by the PC are stunned for a moment and vulnerable to attacks. Or maybe it could have DRASTICALLY reduced anti-health damage for that so you can drop shields and keep the target stunned but have nearly no chance of killing it with just the PC.

  24. #24
    IMO plasma cannons should require a setup just like the HB before being allowed to charge. While deployed you could fire the smaller rounds at a faster rate and could charge up and work as a suppression and support artillery character. I have nothing against the people that use plasma cannons, but I'm REALLY tired of all these peekaboo devastators.

  25. #25
    The small shots are the real issue, the charge shots may be an occasional annoyance but from the perspective of the plasma dev they aren't very useful.

  26. #26
    Member goosey_j's Avatar
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    I'm rank 41 now and I can safely say the Plasma Cannon is the most POS overpowered weapon in the game. It's plain retarded. People moan about the Lascannon but honestly, you stand a fighting chance against a Las dev if you're clever. The beam is dodgeable and he can do sweet FA once you're up close and personal with him.
    The Plasma cannon on the other hand has no such drawback. You can run around like a Tac marine with this thing, splashing damage about willy nilly without really aiming, killing anyone unfortunate to get in your way. And then there is the charge shot. The charge shot that can ONE HIT KILL an Iron Halo'd dev even if he's 2-3 metres from the epicentre of the blast. One plasma Dev can single handedly clear a bunch of guys holding a point (the middle point on bridge springs to mind).
    There is no downside to the weapon. It's far to easy to stay mobile with, and it's far, far too powerful in regards to it's mobility.

    There are only two logical ways to fix it:
    A) Decrease the gun's power
    B) Decrease the Plasma Dev's mobility
    C) A mixture of these.

    My personal feeling is that the splash damage radius is too large and too strong, on both normal shots and the charge shot, so I would be in favour of of a splash damage radius and power reduction. Fair enough, the OMGLOLNUKE strength of the gun for direct or near direct hits is okay (it is after all a Plasma cannon), but one shouldn't have to suffer that same amount of damage when you're a fair distance from the centre of the explosion. A gun that can one shot an entire room is plain stupid.
    I don't think brace is a good idea for the Plasma dev. Bracing, then having to charge seems a bit much. It'd be too easy to take out an immobile Plasma Dev grunting away has he waits for 4 seconds to charge up a shot. And also really obvious and easy to avoid.
    The other possible option is to make Plasma devs move slower than other devs, and keep everything else the same. That way you're trading mobility for overwhelming firepower, which would at least give people a chance to either get the hell out of the way or try and get around you.

    I really hope this gun is changed, because right now it makes the Dev class look overpowered as hell, and basically trumps any other ranged weapon in the game.

    Also, for anyone that's curious, my preferred load outs are:
    Tactical Marine - Bolter, Frags, Kraken rounds & Bolter Scope
    Assault Marine - Chainsword, Blinds, Air Cooled Thrusters & Death From Above/Swordman's Zeal
    Devastator Marine - Heavy Bolter, Frags, Improved Setup time & Iron Halo.

  27. #27
    The small shots are the real issue, the charge shots may be an occasional annoyance but from the perspective of the plasma dev they aren't very useful.
    The charged shots are plenty useful...It's just that, why play as high-AOE team support when you could just run and gun like a tac but better?

    The small shots should be almost a last resort. I'd say that a person who wants to play plasmadev should do it primarily for that charged shot - running around shooting the normal shots shouldn't be a desirable way to play it any more than bolt pistol sniping should be used primarily with Assault marines.

  28. #28
    Idly, I occasionally trolled teammates who were doing nothing but artillery plasma uselessly by standing directly in front of them as they charged up.

    Problem, Astartes?

    Those points ain't gonna re-cap themselves.

  29. #29
    Persnickety South African Mirage Knight's Avatar
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    Here's the thing about Plasma Cannon's fluff-wise: They're designed to be fired from a stationary position and are intended to bring down light to medium armoured vehicles and groups of infantry up to and including powered armour troops, due to the blast effect of the plasma shot. The rate of fire is akin to that of a Lascannon.

    There is no downside to the weapon. It's far to easy to stay mobile with, and it's far, far too powerful in regards to it's mobility.
    I really hope this gun is changed, because right now it makes the Dev class look overpowered as hell, and basically trumps any other ranged weapon in the game.
    Word. On Hab Center and firing from B or C, I can bombard all of the other points with near impunity when equipped with Iron Halo and FNP. I get hit with counter fire? No problem - dodge, heal up, pop out, lob a few quick shots and then laugh as my kill counter goes up. I got a 4x killstreak the other day - all longshot kills and despite the tendency of the plasma charge to scatter. What helped more than anything else was the ability to fire off quick, long range balls of AOE doom while moving. I really helped soften up targets to make life easier for the rest of the team.

    The problem with the PC is neither the damage it does nor its blast radius: It's the damn thing's rate of fire, ability to fire while moving and generous ammo supply. At least in DOW 2 (and TT) the PC is balanced by requiring it to be set up to fire, which offsets its ability to kill even heavy infantry in substantial numbers. The obvious solution to the problem is to remove the weapon's ability to fire on the move completely. Hey, HB devs take a huge risk when bracing to increase their rate of fire and inflict more damage - Plasma Cannon devs should have to take risks in wielding their weapons as well.

    In fact in addition to removing FOTM for the PC (you only need to stop moving to fire), I'd pull the charged shot completely, lower the normal rate of fire slightly and reduce ammo capacity. I'd also add in a set up mode that would allow the Dev to fire shots more accurately when braced.

  30. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #30
    so amaze Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Slowing the rate at which the plasma cannon cools down would be an excellent start, to stop charged bolt spam. This is perhaps the most effective without immediately fucking up the gun and how the class operate currently.

    My next suggestion would be to make the bolt scatter - this means no long range bombardment. Normal shots still have good range, but not great. Massive bolts are useless if your too far away.

    Both of these would reduce how effective overall the class is, without fucking up the current perks system. If they turn out to be ineffective, or unviable, then maybe reducing the splash or damage is worth looking at.
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  31. #31
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Hirm, long range bombardment isn;t the issue IMHO. Nor is the charged shot, both are perfectly fin and i fear neithier. It the ones running around till they're just at the outer edge of SB range and then unloading normal shots nto your face. Even the splash isn;t an issue, it's simply they're ability to rapidly close in to wheer they can effectivlly aim the things well for direct hits in multipules. hjats what screws you over, and then they vent or use heat sink perk and do it to the next guy. When subject to focus fire they're rather weak, but if allowed to run around engaging in mostly 1 on 1 firefight like some superpowered tac they're frightningly effective. Start screwing with the Damage, AoE, Cooldown or RoF and your just going to make the thing utterly usless outside of these close rnage situations. It's limiting the Dev's mobility to where he HAS to use it bombardment style that will fix it becuase getting blown apart at close rnage won't be so big an issue, it just won't be a normal occourance, and it's mid range firepower isn't OMGWTFBBQ, it good, and the AoE effect makes it very useful in ways the simliarly ranged HB isn't, but it dosen't have the accurracy at those rnages to be a killer weapon like it is up close.

  32. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #32
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    If he is overheating faster he has to vent more, preventing that from happening. It's an elegant solution to somebody simply spamming shots.

    My experience is the exact opposite to yours, where "peak-a-boo" charged shots are a massive pain in the arse.

  33. #33
    The plasma cannon is goddamn retarded as it is. There are players and even teams who do nothing but peek-a-boo spam charged shots with stupid splash radius. It is just making the game less fun at the moment, I even want to shoot teammates in the back of the head when they whore with plasma.

    At the very least it shouldn't charge (or fire charged shots) when moving, although that won't fix it functioning as a better plasma gun on a class twice as tanky as tacs.

  34. #34
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    Last edited by Pocari; 23rd Sep 11 at 11:33 AM.

  35. #35
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    @Hirm: Whilst i agree that the charged shot playing peak-a-boo can be an issue on Seize ground to some degree, (just spent a couple of manafactorum games trolling people that way while messing with the plasma gun in between), since the plas dev knows where you are, normally thats not viable in general combat in anihallation or away from the points. If they try that you either stand back and idly dodge the thing or step smartly round the corner and gun them down. It's only effective if you can scoot round a corner certain to have a target in close range. Furthar away practical realities mean you'll never get a direct hit, and may even struggle to get serious splash damage dependiong on range.

    Likewise i think you tottally misread my post. To be effective at mid range, (Where it's balanced), you HAVE to be able to spam shots. The issue here isn't the close range effectivness. It's the fact he's so mobile you can't avoid him getting up close if he wants to. When you can keep your distance he's painfully easy to gun down compared to close range as he almost never gets direct hits unless you screw up and the splash isn;t so OMGWTF on normal shots.

  36. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #36
    so amaze Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Thats true of anything that isn't a lascannon thought Carl, its effectiveness closer up increases ten fold. At least with the plasma cannon, he'll end up shooting himself.

  37. #37
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    @Hirm: Thats the silliest thing i've heard all week. Virtually every wepaon has a diffrent efective range. Getting close with a large bunch of weapons is very undesirable. There's obviouslly a pecking order of close range effectivness, so a lot is dependent on the specific matchup, but anything that isn;t a plasma cannon, storm bolter, melta, or vengance launcher, (a littile depndent on the circumstances with this one though), has to be very dammed cuatious at close range. Dependign on the wepaon and whats above it on the list, everything else has to worry about running into somone that can outshoot them up close. The heavy bolter needs to setup, the plasma gun and bolter don't have the DPS, (though the latter is probably the 5th best close rnage option with kraken bolts), The stalkers lack of hip acucracy also hurts it's DPS, (hard to get headshots).

    Whilst most weapons are certianlly more accurate up close, (stalker and lascannon being the exceptions), many lack the raw DPS to outshoot somone unless their opponnent is equipped with an even more infiriour close range weapon. As such they preffer to keep their distance and use their most effective range band, since this maxamises their outgoign damage to incoming damage ratio, (most of the time), (obviouslly if they get outranged they're in trouble, same as if they step too close).

    Hence my point that it's the ability to get in close thats the issue. Practiclly speaking it's the same issue we'd have if a HB dev didn't need to setup for full DPS. The ability to effectivlly dodge, jump behind cover, and otherise be a major pain to kill, whilst also laying down high accurracy, high damage fire is very powerful. The HB devs inability to dodge, hide away between salvos, or to track a target thats dodging around him makes him keep his distance. Just preventing a Plas Dev from firing on the move, charging up on the move, and possinbbly playing with some other stuff.

    p.s. the idea that forcing them in close fixes thing with the danger of self kills is luaghable. Plas devs have the best durability, the best splash resistance, and the splash damage is sinificantly less than the direct hit damage. Most of the nastiest plas devs actually do take a lot of self damage ATM, but due to the fact that their tarets take significantly more and they can stand significantly more it's not much help.

  38. #38
    So I played a few rounds as a plasma dev tonight and confirmed my thoughts. I was running around instakilling people from range with the charged shot...which would be fine, if I was especially vulnerable to people directly fighting me, but I wasn't. I could easily go toe to toe with tacs. Speed makes me slightly more vulnerable to grenades, but the superior health/armor of devs + Iron Halo fixed that problem right up.

    I will admit that they seem more vulnerable to assault marines than heavy bolters (which do shitloads more damage close up when setup) and lascannons (who have loads of alpha). While it's true that self damage alone will not kill you before it kills the enemy, self damage + a power axe hitting you in the face often will be. In fact, with the perk, I'd bet a chainsword/power axe ASM could outheal the plasmacannon's damage, or at least a large part of it.

    However, this is a minor concern, and there's still stuff you can do...You trade being slightly more vulnerable to ASM for the ability to utterly faceroll everything else.

    Personally, I'd suggest changing the charged shot, actually. There's not much cost to using it at the moment. I suggest movement while charging be stopped completely or cut in half, and/or have the chargeup time increased. The biggest problem with P.devs right now is their ability to pop around corners and disintegrate unsuspecting enemies on a moment's notice.


    I'd still prefer giving them and the lascannon a setup mechanic, but Relic seems unwilling to do that.

  39. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #39
    so amaze Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Carl: I was merely pointing out that weapons are easy enough to aim up close. I've gotten plenty of close quarter kills with all guns (except vengence) providing a melta gun didn't blow my face up.

    And no, its not silly at all. The game has a dedicated melee class - a class designed to fight up close and personal, which can easily move in and out of close combat. Refuting that is even more silly than my blanket CQC combat statement (which I'll admit was silly). Every class also has a bolt pistol - a weapon that is VERY VERY powerful in CQC, when combined with melee attacks.

    Spoon: Devestators DO NOT have superior HP, just Armour. That is how the game is balanced - Jetpack classes have lots of HP and low armour, tacticals have equal amounts of both and devastators have a large armour reserve and lower HP. That is why plasma guns rip them up.

    As for setup mechanic, Lascannon would be utterly crippled by that. Stalker boltgun would win vs Lascannon every time. Plasma cannon is debeatable at the moment due to its raw power.

    Honestly, right now increasing charge time, increasing cooldown time and slowing people when charging/charged are all the best options, preferably a combination. The bolt should remain powerful, but it shouldn't be possible to rambo with the gun.

    I am still of the opinion the regular shots are fine.

  40. #40
    For single shots maybe the thing could cause a momentary stun to the wielder when fired so he loses mobility (without having the weird effect of being unable to shoot while moving). Charge shots could be made much more obvious while they're being prepared so they're basically a glowing "jump on me" sign for all ASMs nearby and can only be used at artillery ranges where ASMs couldn't reach you.

  41. #41
    Spoon: Devestators DO NOT have superior HP, just Armour. That is how the game is balanced - Jetpack classes have lots of HP and low armour, tacticals have equal amounts of both and devastators have a large armour reserve and lower HP. That is why plasma guns rip them up.
    Are you completely certain that they have about the same amount of total (HP + armor) protection? Maybe it's just Iron Halo (which every dev ever takes) that's the problem.


    As for setup mechanic, Lascannon would be utterly crippled by that. Stalker boltgun would win vs Lascannon every time. Plasma cannon is debeatable at the moment due to its raw power.
    ...It wasn't said nor implied that the lascannon would remain as is with the additional requirement of setting up to fire.

  42. #42
    As far as I can tell, these are the stats. Everyone has the same basic blueprint (sm_space_marine_player.attr_pc for SM) that is modified by sm_mp_core_abil_heavy_evade.attr_pc and sm_mp_core_abil_jump_evade.attr_pc.

    Tac (base blueprint)
    health_max 100
    health_regen_delay 5
    health_regen_rate 5
    armourshield_material ceramite_armour
    armourshield_max 100
    armourshield_regen_delay 7
    armourshield_regen_rate 33

    Dev (heavy_evade)
    armourshield_maximum + 25
    armourshield_regeneration * 0.61

    Ass (jump_evade)
    armourshield_maximum - 40
    armourshield_regeneration * 1.15

    Iron halo uses a different armourshield_info entry in the basic blueprint, which has the following:

    armourshield_material energy_shield
    armourshield_max 150
    armourshield_regen_delay 7
    armourshield_regen_rate 33

    I can't lab any of this with changes, though, as -usepreview disables MP matches.

  43. #43
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    @Hirm:

    1. what does the fact that the game has a dedicated melee class, (or the bolt pistol which gets outshot by everything up close, hence why i didn't bring it up), have to do with your previous statment. We where discussing ranged weaponry last time i checked. Also i mant the "silly" comment tounge in cheek, should have used a smilly, sorry.

    2. I'm not saying you can't get kills at close range with all weapons. I'm saying that for the vast majority of weapons you delibretly avoid close range encounters. There's a whole range of weapons where getting close is potentiolly suicidal unless you know your opponnent has an infiriour weapon. The Plas Cannon/SB/Melta are all only beaten out by each ither to one degree or another, the possobbility of encountering one is sufficently small as to make it an acceptbale risk. Start working up the list and it gets ever more dangerous.

    3. Why would a Stalker beat a lasscannon if the lasscannon had to setup to fire. keep hearing this with no explanation for how having to setup in any way deals with the fact that the stalker cannot out DPS the Las cannon and is on a less durable platform.


    @Demonic.

    1. Yes burst fire helps, but your still infiriour to any close range weapons. It certianly makes a close range encounter less risky. But really you kill just as efficently at long and medium ranges and you take far less damage in return. There is no reason to not avoid close range encounters with it.

    2. Seize ground again? Seriously go play a couple of dozen anihallation matches. Then try telling me there's somthing wrong with charged shot. It's an ambush trisk. If your opponnent knows your there and your inside effective range for the thing he'll just chuck some grenades round the corner or step round it and gun you down before it's charged. I'm not saying there's not a balance issue there. But we have to be really careful about how we change it or it's going to become usless outside of that one circumstance and we don;t want that.

    @Hirm again:

    1. I wanated to leave this till last. Once again i just don't think your thinking things through. Your whole set of changes might well make things ok at very close ranges. But they destroy it at every other range, forcing every plas dev to play like this, and frankley given how often when playing a plas dev this way you take damage from your own splash i think i can safely say that fighting at that range is not "working as intended". More practiclly both the Las Dev have HB Dev have a great range of options in how they use and position themselves, (tactics). Reducing the plas cannon to such a very basic set of tactics is not how i think it should go. Nor is it really in line with the basic principles of the dev class in providing the best ranged firepower at the expense of mobility and CC ability.

  44. #44
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    No, really....
    3. Why would a Stalker beat a lasscannon if the lasscannon had to setup to fire. keep hearing this with no explanation for how having to setup in any way deals with the fact that the stalker cannot out DPS the Las cannon and is on a less durable platform.
    Forcing a sniper to move is a victory. Currently, a Stalker opening on a Lascannon Devastator is still at risk of the Devastator side stepping and countering. With a set up he no longer has that ability and is thus instantaneously countered by a platform that can move on to do other things.

  45. #45
    1. Yes burst fire helps, but your still infiriour to any close range weapons. It certianly makes a close range encounter less risky. But really you kill just as efficently at long and medium ranges and you take far less damage in return. There is no reason to not avoid close range encounters with it.
    That doesn't make it weak at close range, and doesn't further the idea that it's balanced because of that.


    2. Seize ground again? Seriously go play a couple of dozen anihallation matches. Then try telling me there's somthing wrong with charged shot. It's an ambush trisk. If your opponnent knows your there and your inside effective range for the thing he'll just chuck some grenades round the corner or step round it and gun you down before it's charged. I'm not saying there's not a balance issue there. But we have to be really careful about how we change it or it's going to become usless outside of that one circumstance and we don;t want that.
    ...Why would he know I'm there? I'm around a corner. Or maybe he doesn't have grenades. Or maybe he does, and throws them and I either dodge out of the way or just eat them and wait a trivial amount of time for my armor to go back up?

  46. #46
    Seize Ground is one half of the MP mode. It should be balanced, not have plascannons rape everybody and then tell them to go play TDM instead.

  47. #47
    Agreed that plasma cannon should get ammo count dropped and that charging up shot should require entrenching like the HB devastator.
    Z405:
    I just don't like this; i can understand that there need to be counters, but this is just retarded.

  48. #48
    Persnickety South African Mirage Knight's Avatar
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    Agreed that plasma cannon should get ammo count dropped and that charging up shot should require entrenching like the HB devastator.
    I fully support that idea and I get the impression that a number of players do as well, but the devs said bracing for anything other than HB's will not happen. On that note, what the heck is the reasoning behind this? Does it have to do with there being a problem with coding in additional character animations or is it just an unwillingness to change game mechanics - even though said change might help make for a more balanced and fun game?

  49. #49
    I imagine it has more to do with the control scheme than anything else. Plasma weaponry uses the Reload button for discharging heat. Heavy Bolters use the Reload button to brace the gun. So if Plasma Cannons can both Discharge Heat and Brace, you need another button reserved for this, and what button would that be? And wouldn't that change also affect other weaponry in order to be consistent? (i.e. Reload / Discharge always uses the same button, Bracing always uses the same other button).

    While changing controls on the PC is not a big deal, it is for console controllers which have a limited number of buttons, and a limited combination that works for an action game.

  50. #50
    Member Akagi_Ryu's Avatar
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    I do belive one of the devs said there will not be included for other weapons than the HB because it "felt tacked on", whatever the hell that means.
    My Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/Akagi_Ryu/
    Ruined:FYI on the bug fixing front a Steam patch can be applied in a matter of hours, most of which involve making coffee, chatting about the latest season of Survivor and pressing the upload button.

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