Heh, wouldn't that make it kill people in a headshot + bodyshot?
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Heh, wouldn't that make it kill people in a headshot + bodyshot?
Maybe you would adjust the RoF to equal 1.5 x the normal shot for recoil and rechambering? But yeah, I know what you mean. You should have as much of a chance to dodge the second shot as you would a lascannon, so I guess it would have to be 2 headshot strength maybe?
@Konfeta: Habs a bit of a bind like that though, try a private game with just you in it and fire from D point to the "wall" that forms the front of the A point platform, you can see how it spreads really well there. Also for intrest, try a salvo of plasma gun shots at that, tell me what you make of it, i found it imformative.
I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.
Thousands of years ago, Egyptians worshipped what would become our ordinary housecat. The cats have never forgotten this.
Roughly half the shots seem to land on target. And, yeah, plasma gun is surprisingly accurate. For some reason it doesn't feel like that in combat, though. It feels like there is a slight delay that is just enough to screw over your aim. Thankfully, you really only need to aim for the body with plasma weapons.
Oh, oh my. Who wants to hear something glorious?
First of all, bad news. Death From Above does NOT affect the Jump+Tackle combo. It leaves about 2/3rd of the HP bar from a direct hit on a fully shielded target. But Furious Charge does affect it, and it leaves 1/10th of the HP bar.
The Good News: You know the Stun-Stun combo for the hammer? With the big blue explosion? The thing is basically a souped up grenade explosion. Direct hit kills an Iron Halo devastator. With Sure Strike it nearly kills everything in the explosion itself and heavily damages things outside it.
Last edited by konfeta; 29th Sep 11 at 4:19 AM.
Final Vengeance is a really cheap perk. It's blast radius needs to be smaller for sure, because right now I roll away from it and it can still kill you. In lots of situations, you're in a close quartered space, or your teamates are blocking you, and you can't get out of the way of the blast.
Ideally, I think this perk should be removed from the MP completely and replaced with something that actually needs skill to use.
No legitimately good Assault player uses that perk.Ideally, I think this perk should be removed from the MP completely and replaced with something that actually needs skill to use.
Agreed. It punishes the more skilled player who had the misfortune of dispatching the suicide ASM with a bunch of TnT strapped to his back.
Originally Posted by Verikez - Best Haiku. Ever.
#108
If you're getting hit by Final Vengeance, either the opponent timed and aimed his divebomb pretty well, or you kinda suck at moving out of the blast radius.
If anything, this perk hurts other Assaults more than Tacs or Devastators. And even then, if you have Air-cooled Thrusters or are able to dispatch the guy at range (True Grit or pistol whipping), getting away is easy.
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
Or you are staggered by unholy amount of grenade spam while stuck on a CP.If you're getting hit by Final Vengeance, either the opponent timed and aimed his divebomb pretty well, or you kinda suck at moving out of the blast radius.
@Konfeta: strange i've had few issues there, but i tend to avoid getting too close with it, at medium ranges i find the slight spread takes care of 99% of my inaccurracy anyway. Sure it works better when i get a perfect aim, buit it isn't a fatal situation if i don't. Unlick anything else that can shoot out to that range effectivlly.
#111
If you're getting grenade spammed, konfeta, I'd argue that they'd probably kill you before Final Vengeance does
Only if they are Masterbullshit Grenades. Incidentally, nerf them plox.
Just had a series of games with 5-7+ Devastators on both sides, yet every game was decided entirely by which team of assholes spammed more MCGs on the CP when the other team was capping.
#113
Hah, yes. However to get four mastered grenades of bullshit and hacks, you sacrifice both perks.
Still, an ungodly combination. I would imagine that Assaults have the easiest time dodging it to be fair. Zeal + Death From Above/Air-cooled Thrusters should make short work of the grenade attempts and their throwers. Assuming you manage to organise a gang of you to go ASM with that build.
The biggest problem I think people have with Final Vengeance is the game's unholy lag. I've lost count of the number of times I've been caught in the blast area of it only to take no damage, and at least 3 or 4 times that often I've bugged out after killing an Assault only for its exploding jump pack, some 200 feet behind/below me, to kill me because the game's lag decided I should die from the explosion of said jump pack.
The connectivity of this game is responsible for more issues in this game than the poor weapon balance is. I don't exactly know how to feel about that.
One thing that really needs addressing though as far as perks is concerned is how useful some of the perks are; Serrated Blade buffs your damage to the level of an Assault's Chainsword/Power Sword, but you don't gain the reach, chasing ability, or useful attacks thereof, so the perk kind of sucks, and you'll continue to get raped by Devastator mighty boots of doom and any competent Assault will still instagib you. Larraman's Blessing provides nowhere near the benefits of Impenetrable or Feel No Pain, to say nothing of Iron Halo.
None of the Tactical's weapon perks except for Kraken Bolts, Bolter Targetter, the Meltagun charge improvement, Improved Twin-Link, and Burst Fire are remotely useful, either providing extra ammo that isn't needed (Plasma Gun, Melta Gun, Vengeance Launcher), provide some kind of benefit that just isn't useful (Vengeance Launcher), or which have no real impact whatsoever on how the class plays out (Plasma Charge upgrade, Stormbolter reload improvement). Serious rebalancing on the weapon perks that aren't for the Bolter and Stalker/Daemon Eye Bolter needs to take place so that some of the other weapons actually can be considered useful (and the Vengeance Launcher in general needs a buff).
Simply put, a lot of the Tactical's perks just aren't that good. Weapon Versatility remains the most-taken perk, and with good reason; you're insane not to take advantage of the sheer utility it gives Tacticals. Unfortunately as things stand, the Tactical is the weakest class in close-combat by far (against all logic), has the lowest durability, and has the most trouble dealing with combat situations that turn against it. Changing a few of the perks it has up would seriously buff this class to the point of usefulness. Here's how I'd do it:
Larraman's Blessing: Provides boost to max health instead. It makes up for Devastators having FNP/Iron Halo and Assaults having Impenetrable.
Serrated Blade: Lets a Tactical use a Power Sword/Chainsword. It's already doing the same damage, so the main edge this grants the assault is an improved ability to chase foes and deal with Devastators in CQC.
Master-Crafted Wargear: Frags under this effect need to be slightly nerfed. Blind Grenades under it are fine. Combat Cocaine under this needs to last a bit longer (they need to last longer in general but I digress).
Favored of the Armory: +1 to Grenade count or Combat Drug count - not doubling. As it stands it grossly favors nadespammers and completely removes any purpose behind taking it for Combat Drugs.
Your thoughts?
Last edited by Jaimas; 1st Oct 11 at 11:03 AM.
Final Vengence is a one-shotting bullshit perk that rewards suicide rushing ASStards. It's impossible to avoid if you have even one swing animation in past the point of death even before the damned lag gets you. Jumping out of the blast radius results in an air kill (Death from below) and extra points to the dead ASStard. It's a broken, fucked up perk whose sole use is to troll other players who manged to show that it was they where were the more skilled combatant.
I stole some assets from Jaimas and made the following for your enjoyment and education:
Spoiler
[Edit] Also, we can has hivemind, Jaimas.
Pseudonymn: if your getting cuaght you fucked up. Deal with it.
At the end of the day jumping out will save you 100% of the time assuming your not in a warping grade lag game. It isn;t close to an instant detonate. And frankly a god ASM learns to control ther swings. Failing to do so gets you gunned down by competent Tacs and Dev's. Generally even with impenetrable i'm jumping clear of any fight with just a sliver of health left. Eithier play your ASM to perfection or don;t play at all because there's several dozen diffrent thinsg that will destroy you for no effort if you don't. It's why i only jump on ASM anymore when i'm feeling in the mood for it. Their too much hassel otherwise. The effort to reward ratio isn;t fun.
@Jamias: Are you trying to sound like an idiot. A ta has a freking high power ranged weapon. No way they should have the ability to out melee an ASM serrated knife or not. A full health ASM vs a full Health Tac (With serrated knife), should STILL be a walkover for the ASM becuase at the end of the day he has none of the ranged firepower of the tac. Serrated knife is there to let you finish of an ASM or dev you badly damage with shooting. You use it while you reload or when you can't get away from melee range. You in no way use it to allow you to tackle enemies in melee as a primary attack method. Your a tac, that menas you shoot things. Melee is secondery.
Stopped reading here.Pseudonymn: if your getting cuaght you fucked up. Deal with it.
This from the guy who's PC is the shining beacon of perfect functioning and whose connection to the world-wide intertubes has never dropped even one single data packet. Get stuffed, Carl.
Well excuse me, i have had lag issues, but lag isn't an acceptable balance argument. It is not a permanant thing, (since the patch), nor is it severe enough to make dodging final venagance an issue in the majority of games it happpens in. In a low lag or no lag, (or rather impossibble to notice lag), game final vengance is trivial to avoid. Those games are the majority for anyoen with a vuagely decent connection, (When my own drops below 500bps download/100bps upload i get perma bad lag, but thats my fualt and i know better than to try playing anything online with that, weather it's dedicated servers or P2P).
"But to become a waking carpet bomber, you just need to sacrifice both perks." They have artillery grade range and can be thrown out stupidly fast. Oh, and let's not forget to mention Rabid Deployment + MCG combo - nothing short of an already shooting Devastator or Meltagun can kill *that* before it throws a grenade and cleans out the point. ASM can't do anything about it other than run away and throw inferior grenades back, which even when it works just means the game degenerated into even more grenade spam.Hah, yes. However to get four mastered grenades of bullshit and hacks, you sacrifice both perks.
Still, an ungodly combination. I would imagine that Assaults have the easiest time dodging it to be fair. Zeal + Death From Above/Air-cooled Thrusters should make short work of the grenade attempts and their throwers. Assuming you manage to organise a gang of you to go ASM with that build.
MCG is honestly the most disgusting perk in the game. It absolutely ruins CP games in a way that no other weapon does and, yes, that includes Plasma Cannon spam. The only map with spread out enough CPs and open enough CP points where their dominance isn't completely assured is Hab center.
Disagree on those two. Stormbolter with reload is a significant improvement it because it eliminates almost all downtime from shooting the gun. Plasma Charge upgrade actually makes the Charged Shot usable for something that isn't pee-ka-boo. Their only problem is that, surprise, they are outclassed by MCGs.or which have no real impact whatsoever on how the class plays out (Plasma Charge upgrade, Stormbolter reload improvement).
They need to be altered so they do not contribute even a bloody drop more to the grenade spam than the game is naturally prone to. Which means, no AoE increase for frags; FotA completely redesigned. How about FotA becomes the anti-special equipment perk? Resistance to explosive damage, resistance to flash grenades.Master-Crafted Wargear: Frags under this effect need to be slightly nerfed. Blind Grenades under it are fine. Combat Cocaine under this needs to last a bit longer (they need to last longer in general but I digress).
Favored of the Armory: +1 to Grenade count or Combat Drug count - not doubling. As it stands it grossly favors nadespammers and completely removes any purpose behind taking it for Combat Drugs.
As for a MCG Frag change... it's kind of annoying to come up with something that doesn't improve grenade spam because, let's face it, anything that improves the grenade improves its power in terms of spamming. The only thing I can think off that won't make it better at being spammed into groups of people is something that specifically targets the people who hang back - Devastators. Any ideas? Maybe faster fuse with lower AoE, lower bounce, and improved damage?
Last edited by konfeta; 1st Oct 11 at 5:14 PM.
How about just moving off the point till the grenades have gone off. That allways works for me vs grenades. They cna spam to their hearts content but all they're doing is slowing me down. Unless they really catch me out they won't even damage me with them. I move off, let the exploshions die down, move back on, then proceede to use my grenades to corral them into weaons fire or flush them out of cover. Don;t work so well if i get left on my own by a team that thinks standing in the exploshions acomplishes anything, or if there's a lolcannon on the other side, but assuming i have some support it's pretty easy to shove them off.
Damn it Psuedonym, that totally Ninja'd a comic I was planning to do. Suffice to say I approve, good sir.
I'm going to ignore your rote insults and instead focus on the meat-and-potatoes of your post, because that's just how I roll.@Jamias: Are you trying to sound like an idiot. A ta has a freking high power ranged weapon. No way they should have the ability to out melee an ASM serrated knife or not. A full health ASM vs a full Health Tac (With serrated knife), should STILL be a walkover for the ASM becuase at the end of the day he has none of the ranged firepower of the tac. Serrated knife is there to let you finish of an ASM or dev you badly damage with shooting. You use it while you reload or when you can't get away from melee range. You in no way use it to allow you to tackle enemies in melee as a primary attack method. Your a tac, that menas you shoot things. Melee is secondery.
Tac is designed to be the Swiss Army class. It gets out melee'd not just by ASMs, but EVERYONE. Even the dedicated "lol imma carryan a heavy weapon lasar" units that by all accounts should be weaker in close-combat. Their close-combat skills are a joke for a unit that is expressly intended to be versatile. As an aside, Serrated Blade already gives the Knife the same goddamned damage as the Chainsword/Power Sword. The only difference is that the Chainsword has a longer combo, has negligably longer range, and chases better. Oh, and the Chainsword/Power Sword don't religiously lose to Devastator mighty boots of doom (which will reliably beat ASMs if they get the initiative due to stunlocking; on what planet does that make sense). With no perk at all, the Tactical should, by its very nature, be able to beat the Devastator in CQC, but it flat-out can't barring lag-based shenannigans.
As a Tactical, you have three main options if a skilled Assault drops next to you - You either have a Meltagun, pull off a lucky dodge at just the right second, or you die. I know this because I play assault religiously; if an assault with an axe or sword lands next to a Tactical, that Tactical is comprehensively screwed unless he has some considerable moxie - or a Meltagun - and if the Assault's good enough, the latter might not even matter. You can match the damage an Assault Marine does with Serrated Blade, but with the short-as-hell range of the knife and extremely poor priority it has in a fight, you're still going to lose - and often. If a very minor tweak with Serrated Blade (having it give a better CQC weapon) fixes that perk, why the crap should it not be an option?
At the end of the day jumping out will save you 100% of the time assuming your not in a warping grade lag game.So we're to ignore the fact that this and this and this are all common occurences then, and that the lag has been complained about on literally every community involved with Space Marine? Are we going to simply smile and pretend the obvious, that about a third of the complaints about FV would evaporate overnight if the game's horrific lag were dealt with, is not, in fact, accurate? Are we to simply pretend that the fact that if you're using a Hammer, you're multiple simultaneous definitions of fucked if you pop an ASM with Final Vengeance, because there is no way in the Emperor's holy cornhole that you'll escape in time?Well excuse me, i have had lag issues, but lag isn't an acceptable balance argument.
Seriously, if we're going to just live in denial on these, I'd like to know about it in advance, so I can prepare an appropriate response beforehand. K?
#122
I think that the issues regarding Tactical melee prowess is that Devastators are simply too good. Especially with stompbuild of lols.
A. Sounds like a fantastic way to lose the point. "Slow down" is how CP games are won when its not a curb stomp match.How about just moving off the point till the grenades have gone off.
B. When the guy throwing grenades doesn't have leprosy, he won't just force you off your point, he will flat out kill you unless you can jetpack out. Given that most points have walls, your dodge direction becomes highly predictable. With FotA, it won't even matter if he guessed wrong because he can just toss it in the correct spot a fraction of a second later.
Very true, Gorbykins. Very true indeed, but you don't even need the Mighty Boot config to deal with one. Damage and priority alone give you an edge.
As an aside, Konfeta just adequately pointed out why it's bad, but it's more than that - Grenade blasts are fused, so they'll usually explode shortly after impact - unless you act like a dick and throw them from a huge distance away, in which case you give the enemy substantially less time to react because the 'Nade's already in the air. On Waste Management and Shattered Bridge, Nadepsam becomes a way of life for some players, since that point B needs to be capped, and you can throw a few nukes out there with MCW.
Last edited by Jaimas; 2nd Oct 11 at 4:44 AM.
#125
I think the point is that, and you apparently agree, the lag is why FV is so stupid right now. It's very little to do with the perk itself, and practically everything to do with the terrible terrible connection issues plaguing the game.So we're to ignore the fact that this and this and this are all common occurences then, and that the lag has been complained about on literally every community involved with Space Marine? Are we going to simply smile and pretend the obvious, that about a third of the complaints about FV would evaporate overnight if the game's horrific lag were dealt with, is not, in fact, accurate? Are we to simply pretend that the fact that if you're using a Hammer, you're multiple simultaneous definitions of fucked if you pop an ASM with Final Vengeance, because there is no way in the Emperor's holy cornhole that you'll escape in time?
As someone who rarely gets hit by FV (unless I get stuck on terrain, or am in an area where my 'FUCK, JUMP AAAAAAAAAAAAAA' strategy is hindered by awkward things like ceilings) here's how I avoid it most of the time (and by most, I mean 95% of the time, as an assault marine, with a thunder hammer). In order of priority:
1) Don't play on a server where people are stuttering around. Ever. I drop from servers and look for another one as soon as I see people stuttering around on a regular basis. If I don't find a server where I don't have to deal with that crap within about 20-30 mins I just don't play at that time, and will try again in a few hours.
2) Don't swing wildly like a total loon. It takes like, 3-5 hits to kill someone with a sword or axe. It takes 1-2 to kill them with the hammer. If you're using your plasma pistol/death from above you should rarely be dropping in on someone with full health and shields (obviously it's a different story when you get jumped on, I know), so you take your shots, take a few swings and if they're dead at that point, great! Move on. If they're not, jump away and death from above them into another swing or two, or hop away and fill them up with plasma shots, and if they're not dead by that point, you've been swinging at air, and you're probably dead yourself because you can't hit a target.
3) Don't try and play with lag. No, seriously. If you have 1-3 bars showing for your ping, get out and find another server until you have 4-5. You're only asking for trouble with that kind of latency. You're playing an FPS (effectively, I know it's third person, but whatever). MS is everything.
In a virtually zero-lag environment FV wouldn't be anywhere near as big a problem as it is, and even right now, it's barely a problem for some people (whether that be due to their game-finding abilities, lucky connections, good reflexes, or the fact they play iron halo devs who don't care what you hit them with because it's all just a little pre-filling-you-full-of-bullets tickling). I mean really guys. You have 4-5 seconds from the point of kill until detonation. If you can't get away from it, with any class, in that period of time with no external inhibitors (like grenade knockback or that little pointy bit of terrain that your 6ton power armour can't crush over) then you actually, genuinely, are doing something wrong.
Does that mean the perk should be in the game? Meh. Probably not. It's silly to reward people for dying, and in the lag-environment the game is played it makes the problem a whole lot bigger than it really should be, but against good players, it's also a totally wasted perk slot (doubly so if you're not dying in melee range on a regular basis as well, or even dying regularly).
And Manufactorum, don't forget Manufactorum! If you stay on the point B itself, you get sniped. If you move into cover for the boxes, you basically painted a gigantic grenade target on your face because it is physically impossible to avoid a MCG Frag when you only have 90 degrees of escape route direction. And Emprah help you if you try to cap points A and C - the nicest kill box in the game short of a 10 meter deep hole; I don't think even B of Waste Management compares.On Waste Management and Shattered Bridge
#1 strategy of Manufactorum - run straight for the enemy side point and start throwing grenades like a madman. 3+ kills every time unless you get a lag delayed start (you need to run there perfectly and you basically have a 1-5 second time window to throw grenades depending on how many enemies are at the point).
Forgot about Manufactorum and the sniper alley of doom. Jesus. That made me nostalgic for Spawncamp Hell in the Gears 3 beta.
I like the cut of your jib, good sir.In a virtually zero-lag environment FV wouldn't be anywhere near as big a problem as it is, and even right now, it's barely a problem for some people (whether that be due to their game-finding abilities, lucky connections, good reflexes, or the fact they play iron halo devs who don't care what you hit them with because it's all just a little pre-filling-you-full-of-bullets tickling). I mean really guys. You have 4-5 seconds from the point of kill until detonation. If you can't get away from it, with any class, in that period of time with no external inhibitors (like grenade knockback or that little pointy bit of terrain that your 6ton power armour can't crush over) then you actually, genuinely, are doing something wrong.
Does that mean the perk should be in the game? Meh. Probably not. It's silly to reward people for dying, and in the lag-environment the game is played it makes the problem a whole lot bigger than it really should be, but against good players, it's also a totally wasted perk slot (doubly so if you're not dying in melee range on a regular basis as well, or even dying regularly).
I actually agree with this, noble Ap0k, but the simple fact remains that Lag is a constant issue with this game, and the game is a lot worse for it. Additionally, it is extremely hard (not quite impossible for a Hammer Assault to get out of the blast due to simple latency issues. 5 seconds of det time rapidly becomes 1-3 seconds when latency is factored in, and when you throw in things like lag compensation, it gets that much worse.
See, the lag issues in this game exacerbate the problems that already exist. As has been discussed, FV would be infinitely less of a problem were the gamne not so laggy - but it is, and hence FV is a problem. I've lost count of the number of times I've killed an Assault, bugged out (or even killed it from afar with my pistol!), then gotten killed by the explosion of a Final Vengeance I am nowhere near, exactly as in the comic Pseudonym posted. Or seen a teammate nowhere near it fall over dead from it with no apparent cause.
A lot of players get lucky - good connections and lucky matchups that mean that they don't have to worry about Lag so much, but a lot of players suffer from hideous lag because the game will religiously decide to make someone who lives in the middle of Elbonia the host, as opposed to someone else in the room who actually has a connection that doesn't completely suck ass. Fixing the lag should be priority one, over many of the other problems, even as we discuss other balance issues and the like.
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