Grenades

[Brenil]

I've noticed a bit of trend the higher in levels I get while playing multiplayer. The better skilled the player, the more ridiculous the grenade spam.

The ability to literally toss all your grenades without cooldown has lead to an almost TFC Classic environment of constant explosions and near total blindness (when flashbangs are present). Needless to say this is not very fun, or honestly, skillful. As it is now, anytime someone is capping a contested point, they can expect to have a shower of grenades rain down on them. This isn't completely unavoidable, but it is a tad silly. The worst part of grenades are how flashbangs are completely unavoidable. In other games with flashbangs you can simply look away and avoid the worst of the effects. In Space Marine, you're pretty much helpless for the duration. Not to mention the other flashbangs that will no doubt head your way, keeping you blind for stupid amounts of time. Oh... and God help you if they have Master-crafted Wargear (which seems to be growing in popularity).

Anyone else think this crap is starting to put a damper on an otherwise great multiplayer experience?

[SpardaSon21]

Yes, that last game on Waste Management had ridiculous grenade spam. I simply couldn't keep up with the guys running around with Master-Crafted Wargear and Favored of the Armory.

[konfeta]

Perked up 'nade Spam is Tactical's Plasma Cannon.

[Chad Ghostal]

I think 2 mastercrafted grenades isn't a big deal. The problem stems when you combine them with master of the armory, is when things get a bit wonky. Of course some weapons for the tactical function very well with bonus perks for the weapons. I usually always carry mastercrafted, but master of the armory I don't use a lot, because the weapon perks are a better pick.

I don't agree with changing it so you can't combine the two perks, but at the same token if gets to be a huge balance issue, I'm not against not being able to no longer combine the two perks. Though how that will affect folks who use enhanced blind grenades and stims is not clear. I just think at the moment it's not a big balance issue.

[dr.mario89]

Waste management, manufactorum and that broken bridge stage(forgot the name) on sieze ground are the worst for mega grenade barrages. The middle points almost literally become uncapturable due to one side bombarding it while the other tries to capture it.

[Goobers]

Give each player one grenade (the perk ups it to two) but you can pick up replacement ones with a standard ammo pickup. The dedicated grenade pickup gives you a pair of grenades but can go over your grenade cap by one? Limit the grenades one can toss but not their availability would do a good job of capping spam on the head.



Personally however I'd like to see grenades being reduced to nothing but a AoE stun/knockdown device, because seriously, how are fragmentations going to hurt power armour?

Of course a melta bomb that you can throw like a grenade, that magnetically latches on to someone and does a melta-gun like blast on a single target would be quite fun.

[Viper114]

Agreed, the grenade spam is dumb and I hate having to do it, too. We really DON'T have to copy Call of Duty's MP to be competitive. How about some grenade & grenade usage nerfs, so they aren't a necessity to win a fight?

[Mirage Knight]

Yes, that last game on Waste Management had ridiculous grenade spam. I simply couldn't keep up with the guys running around with Master-Crafted Wargear and Favored of the Armory.

You're welcome Nothing quite like having 4 hand held nukes at your disposal.

I'm thinking there should be restrictions as to what perks can be combined with others. Combos like MCW and FoTA are just wrong. At one point I killed 3 guys in a few seconds assailing Point B on Waste Management last night.

On a side note, that perked Melta spam was far more ridiculous and rage inducing - at least for some folks.

Anyone else think this crap is starting to put a damper on an otherwise great multiplayer experience?

You've got my vote.

[Methuselath]

I have a confession to make. Now I have a slot ready with Mastercrafted Wargear and Faster Respawn. Spawn on a contested point, throw grenades on yourself, roll and hose down anyone that survive. If you die, repeat the process.

Especially funny when you play as Chaos. FROM THE WARP I COME!

[konfeta]

And there goes hoping that combination was fad within the mind of a single twisted player I saw a few days ago.

Grenades were simply a mistake in this game the way they are implemented.

[Mirage Knight]

I have a confession to make. Now I have a slot ready with Mastercrafted Wargear and Faster Respawn. Spawn on a contested point, throw grenades on yourself, roll and hose down anyone that survive. If you die, repeat the process.

That's just evil. Then again I'd expect nothing less than that from you

[Sturmhaubitze]

You're welcome Nothing quite like having 4 hand held nukes at your disposal.

I'm thinking there should be restrictions as to what perks can be combined with others. Combos like MCW and FoTA are just wrong. At one point I killed 3 guys in a few seconds assailing Point B on Waste Management last night.

On a side note, that perked Melta spam was far more ridiculous and rage inducing - at least for some folks.

The blind grenades were what really got to me in that match. If I wasn't dead by the time my vision returned, I was instead stupidly facing some wall after randomly dashing off like a panicked guy with a blindfold. And then another blind grenade would land near me and OMG MY RETINAS THE SPACEMARINE GOGGLES THEY DO NOTHING. And then I got melta'd.

The meltagun is not rage-inducing for me, most of the time, because I know my enemy has to get really close to use it well. And I let them get really close, so it's partially my fault. My rage only kicks in when I do nothing wrong and still get destroyed over and over again, which would have been the grenade spam.

[Mirage Knight]

Blind + perked melta face rape is never fun. And someone did drop in that match because of the melta spam. Mind you that was arranged beforehand to see what would happen :/

[Demonic Spoon]

Agreed with above - reduce base grenade number to 1, Favor of the Armory increases that to two.

That's actually a buff to the perk - 2 is a bigger improvement over 1 than 3 is over 2.

[Sturmhaubitze]

Actually, Favoured of the Armoury doubles your grenades from 2 to 4, not 2 to 3.

[Mirage Knight]

Correct.

[Demonic Spoon]

Well then.

Even still, 1 to 2 is about as powerful as 2 to 4.

[DoomKnights]

Bwahaha Yea I sometimes just for being an ass run to the enemy first cap on start of a game. Master Craft Nades and Armoury, toss four at the first spot. Five to six deaths in one huge rage filled laughter. Sometimes I can be a stinker!

[konfeta]

By the way, has anyone ever tested what Master Crafted does for Flashbangs/Stims?

[DoomKnights]

Yes the flashbang makes it LONGER alot longer. Stims meh not worth it.

[konfeta]

So, in other words, Mastercrafted + Favored of the Armory + Flashbangs is quite possibly the greatest troll of all time. BRB!

[DoomKnights]

Oh yea. You can pretty much lock people blind for a LONG time.

[Brenil]

Personally, I think all that needs to bring grenades in line is to add a cooldown between throwing grenades and having a perk that combats blindness. Giving grenades a 10-15 second cooldown would stop the silly spam that has become the 'pro' thing to do and make people use grenades tactically instead of blowing their entire load anytime they see more than one guy. The flashbangs are a bigger problem due to the complete helplessness you're placed in and when they're chained, it just becomes pointless to play against that kind of grief. Adding a perk entitled Auto-Senses or something that either makes you immune to blindness or greatly reduces the effects would allow players to combat flashbangs without making flashbangs useless like in so many other FPS games.

[Sturmhaubitze]

An alternative solution to grenade spam is to introduce other Special Equipment choices that are equally effective and popular, but are not offensive options. This will reduce the amount of players carrying grenades, while not having to nerf the grenades themselves. So there might be still some players using grenades, but not the entire enemy team tossing them everywhere.

[konfeta]

What can be equally effective to having an opportunity to take out 4+ people in one barrage or completely fuck up a devastator group?

[DoomKnights]

Funny thing is? Fluff wise Marines are Immune to flash nades. Only EMP nades mess with their suits. Funny that? And Master Crafting Nades? Not since Second Ed was that even possible.

I hope they add for the four nades a Shield nade or a vortex of doom. It randomly stutters and jumps around the map. hehe.

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Flashs help get you out of messes as well. If you know your place you can flash your enemy and yourself ans STILL get away. Memorise where you are and then move as such. Get behind corners while he's walking into the wall.

Pro tip, as long as you do not have LOS with the flash nade when it goes off you are not blinded too. Example toss it around a piller or toss it over a edge, you will not get blind they still do tho.

[konfeta]

And Master Crafting Nades? Not since Second Ed was that even possible.

My Tarkus disagrees.

Also, troll successful. I got a trio of devastators rage at me for dedicating a game towards punishing them for Plasma Cannon spamming. Got one of them to kill himself on top of it with a charged shot. Yeah, this is definitely going on my permanent slot.

[ImmortalChaos]

I quite dislike the current way grenades function and have even thought out a series of changes to expand the grenade system for more balance and less frustration.


Changelog wishlist:


Frag grenades:
Damage dealt to armor significantly reduced- A direct hit with a frag will only tear off 50% armor and deal the same knockback.
AoE slightly increased, with damage further tapering off at the edges.
Health damage remains strong- without armor, frags become very lethal and can kill at slightly farther distances than is current.

New Grenade type: Krak
Krak grenades have very small area in which they can outright kill a player (even with Iron Halo/Chaos Icon), and a radius about equal to the current kill radius where they will strip shields and leave you fairly wounded.
In a larger area, about equivalent to the current grenade AoE, Krak 'nades will remove shields very effectively but do insignificant health damage.
Stun effects identical to current frag grenades.

Blind Grenades:
Maintain a small area where their effect is guaranteed, but outside of that, the blinding effect can be avoided by not looking. Audio effects would remain unchanged.

Combat Stims:
Shorten/remove activation animations.
Possibly allow players to carry two doses, or increase the buff duration.


What am I going for?
I agree with the OP and feel that grenades are kind of overwhelming in the current balance scheme. I also think combat stims are totally overshadowed by them, and in general there is very little to customize when it comes to your offhand slot. Increase the available options and give them synergy with existing weapons instead of being the main force with which you kill things. A player with a storm bolter is going to love stripping shields in a large AoE. A player with a plasma gun will have similar feelings for frags of death against unarmored foes. Blind grenades are evil and get what's coming to them, and combat stims might actually see some use every now and then.



Do I expect to see these changes?
No, but I can always dream.

[Jaimas]

At first I was O_O because I saw the frag changes.
....Then I saw the krak addition. Well-played.

[Carl]

TBH i don;t see the issue with frags. Yes i agree the whole FoA + MC is pretty lulzy, but grenades don't drop from enemies anywhere near as fast as you use them, i haven't unlocked FoA yet and i'm forever scrounging for more. So it's a one shot thing really. The main problem with that is that the vast majority of people in any given match aren't running round with 2.0 or above kill/death ratios. Since most people are getting only 1 kill per life at best, and often dying after the first battle, they don't have any incentive to hang onto more grenades.

ANother factor i think is that many of the best weapon perks are locked away behind the non-kill related challanges and few of the rest of the non-weapon perks really stand out from the crowd. In fact there's a couple i outright question the usefulness of, at least in comparision to the good weapon perks of FoA/MC.

[Methuselath]

Well, just to prove of the nastiness (or imbaness if you swing that way) of the mastercrafted 'nades; I present you, Daemon Prince Meth's From the Warp mark 2, ultra-evil edition. First, faster respawn plus mastercrated 'nades, then grab a mate with a teleport homer aaaaand... I think you get where I'm going here. Combine with your close range weapon of choice.

I've been punting this around with me bro, he uses the Stalker pattern for choice, so that he can stay away from the fight and have enough space to turn around and leg it when stuff goes south. I spawn in, throw grenades in the general direction of the enemy and run ahead laughing maniacally. Suicide is a must. The Chaos Gods will just punt you back into the game within a couple of seconds anyway.

This shite is ridiculous, but I find it absolutely hilarious. You can imagine the panic that this cheesy crud spreads. If one can add one more perk and tacs can carry final vengeance, this is definitely in the total-uncontested-ultra-cheesimba territory.

But for now... SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MINE OR THE ENEMY'S! SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK!

[Jaimas]

I'm reminded vaguely of my friend Steve's build:

Tactical, Serrated, Combat Drugs. Get into close combat screaming I DO COCAAAAAAAAAINE.

[Brenil]

Too bad Combat Drugs suck.

[Demonic Spoon]

I actually have to change my earlier stance and say that the number of nades isn't the problem, it's the timer.

The way it is right now, it takes virtually no time to throw a grenade...but even if your opponent rolls away when the grenade is thrown, he will probably take significant armor damage from it. Even if he doesn't, it takes less time to throw a nade than it does to roll away from one - so by throwing a grenade your opponent loses nothing but a quarter second of shooting time, and in return he gets at least a second of free shots on you while you try to roll away, even if the grenade doesn't do anything.

Grenades, IMO, should be something you use to dislodge people from cover, punish devastators, or force people into moving where you want them to - not just a general purpose winbomb. Reducing the number of nades wouldn't fix the problem, it would just make it less noticeable.


Relic should just increase the arm time on the grenades (time to explode after landing) by 1-1.5 seconds at least. Devastators may need a slight health nerf to compensate (as nades are the primary devastator counter) but I think it would improve gameplay a lot.

[Vuther]

I actually have to change my earlier stance and say that the number of nades isn't the problem, it's the timer.

The way it is right now, it takes virtually no time to throw a grenade...but even if your opponent rolls away when the grenade is thrown, he will probably take significant armor damage from it. Even if he doesn't, it takes less time to throw a nade than it does to roll away from one - so by throwing a grenade your opponent loses nothing but a quarter second of shooting time, and in return he gets at least a second of free shots on you while you try to roll away, even if the grenade doesn't do anything.

Grenades, IMO, should be something you use to dislodge people from cover, punish devastators, or force people into moving where you want them to - not just a general purpose winbomb. Reducing the number of nades wouldn't fix the problem, it would just make it less noticeable.


Relic should just increase the arm time on the grenades (time to explode after landing) by 1-1.5 seconds at least. Devastators may need a slight health nerf to compensate (as nades are the primary devastator counter) but I think it would improve gameplay a lot.

I'd agree with such a change. It'd probably require new animations to not look bad though since such an animation should probably be "pull out pin, pull throwing arm backward, throw", where it currently is "toss grenade".

[Demonic Spoon]

You wouldn't even have to do that (though it would be ideal). Right now the grenade impacts X amount of time after striking a surface. Just add 1-2 to X and you're done.

[Vuther]

You wouldn't even have to do that (though it would be ideal). Right now the grenade impacts X amount of time after striking a surface. Just add 1-2 to X and you're done.

Actually, I kinda worry that'd increase the area denial usage of spamming grenades in Seize Ground. No one will be trying to stand near a grenade, even if they take another second to blow up. It'd add a few seconds extra to the lameness of spamming grenades onto the points.

[Brenil]

I stand by my original statement on this (now semi-game breaking) issue:

Personally, I think all that needs to bring grenades in line is to add a cooldown between throwing grenades and having a perk that combats blindness. Giving grenades a 10-15 second cooldown would stop the silly spam that has become the 'pro' thing to do and make people use grenades tactically instead of blowing their entire load anytime they see more than one guy. The flashbangs are a bigger problem due to the complete helplessness you're placed in and when they're chained, it just becomes pointless to play against that kind of grief. Adding a perk entitled Auto-Senses or something that either makes you immune to blindness or greatly reduces the effects would allow players to combat flashbangs without making flashbangs useless like in so many other FPS games.

Increasing the explosion timer on grenades would actually make grenades less than useful. I don't have a problem with how they are right now, in terms of how fast they go off; only how much you can spam them is the real issue (that and there's no defense for flashbangs).

[Jaimas]

Combat Drugs need to last longer, by the way. 5 seconds or so for a slight melee and DR boost that you can use ONCE isn't exactly winning any friends from me.

[Demonic Spoon]

Actually, I kinda worry that'd increase the area denial usage of spamming grenades in Seize Ground. No one will be trying to stand near a grenade, even if they take another second to blow up. It'd add a few seconds extra to the lameness of spamming grenades onto the points.

Area denial isn't an issue. They don't have that many grenades, and you can always just kill them if they do. The issue is that you die from the grenades (+ ensuing fire) before you can get off the point...so instead of waiting for the grenade spam to subside and getting on the point again, you...run from the spawn to get on the point again.

[Gorb]

I don't really see a problem with the Blind Grenades. They can inconvenience the thrower and/or his allies.

Frag Grenades are problematic, especially when spammed, however.

And yes, buff to Combat Drugs plox <3

[Vuther]

Area denial isn't an issue. They don't have that many grenades, and you can always just kill them if they do. The issue is that you die from the grenades (+ ensuing fire) before you can get off the point...so instead of waiting for the grenade spam to subside and getting on the point again, you...run from the spawn to get on the point again.

It isn't right now, but I'd be worried it would. A team full of the stuff is kinda silly, and adding a second to them all could be dangerous on the three-point maps with half of a team sticking to one point each. You'd be able to charge in after they burn all their frags, but it'd take quite some time giving them quite a lead and after you kill them...they respawn to start all over again.

[Steel*Faith]

I think nades need to be a park option only. Every class being able to throw nades is just too much. Favored of the Armory should by default give you 2 or 3 nades; Mastercrafted should give you improved grenades, and I think it should also improve your weapon damage by a small percentage (10%-15%). But yea, remove default nades from everyone.

Right now I like using mastercrafted with favor of the armory on a Vengeance launcher Tactical - makes me feel like I'm using a grenadier class for clearing out defensive positions.