Assault Marines: One trick pony needs to learn more tricks.

[Goobers]

So I've been taking the Assault Marine/Raptors for a spin recently and it's really bugging me how limited they are as a class. I am quite literally incapable of doing anything but melee, and as such more than half the map seems like a no go because of it. I'm finding the class actually playable rather than a chore since getting the Death from Above perk but over all it just feels very limited in what the class can do. The Assault class gets countered so easily by awareness and the dodge skill that it just needs more options to be a fun experience.


I'd suggest overhauling the True Grit skill myself. Make the Bolter a standard side arm, mainly because that thing is crap and not worth wasting a perk to get. It fires slowly, inaccurately, does bugger all damage and unlike the Tac's version, which is fast AND accurate, you can't buff it with perks either. With the Bolter turned into a basic side arm, the True Grit skill turns into the bolters buff perk, improving it's Accuracy, Rate of Fire and Recoil by a good 25%, or at least bringing it up to above the Tac's non-perked bolter.

Bam, Assault now has two styles of play off the bat and some decent ranged abilities.


If Tacs can insta-gib with with a melta, Devs can pound me with that health and stomp, then I want the Assault Class to not be completely worthless at ranged combat. Their melee skills are fine, abet slow, but they are just too limited in what they can do compared to the other classes in the game.


Of course I'd also like to see the Bolt Pistol be able to fire as fast as you can click but have the recoil/scatter ramped right up to compensate, so you can blast the person who dodged out of the way but scatter shots to the four winds if their any further away than just beyond melee range.

[konfeta]

So, have you ever used the pistols or grenades? Jetpack dramatically improves their usability.

[ADS]

So I've been taking the Assault Marine/Raptors for a spin recently and it's really bugging me how limited they are as a class. I am quite literally incapable of doing anything but melee

Say it to my plasma pistol spewing stream of death every 35 miliseconds.

Tossing nades over obstacles while jumping, decaping points, killing snipers, able to cap middle points instantly after start... Still one trick pony?

Yes, sometimes tactical with melta will ambush you or by mistake\lag you land in front of entranched dev\havoc - sometimes it happens.

Your problem is more "learn to play" than balance issue.

[Shuma]

Pretty much what they said, you have this things called "grenades" and "guns" use them.

[Goobers]

Tossing nades over obstacles while jumping, decaping points, killing snipers, able to cap middle points instantly after start... Still one trick pony?

Whoop de doo.

I can run around and kill people who aren't looking, so yes I still believe that still counts as a one trick pony. The Tac can throw uber nades, excel in close combat and pretty much outright invalidate an Assault with a Melta gun, Snipe with the Stalker and have an all range general purpose weapon in the bolter and storm bolter. The Dev can snipe with the las cannon, flush people out of cover with the plasma cannon, supress and generally own up with the heavy bolter as well as having a mean stomp or a bucket load of health. The Assault however, gets to run round and kill people who aren't looking with 3 ranged weapons that do pretty much the same thing, and 3 melee weapons that pretty much do the same thing.


I have no issues throwing grenades while jumping or pressing the left mouse button as well as the right and my complaint isn't that I can't kill things but rather the Assaut Class has a defeciency of utility. My suggestion was to give another way to build a character and allow a viable ranged sec for the assault class.

[Carl]

@Goobers:

I'm going to get trolled by every good ASM out there for giving this away, but mix stuns in with nmormal attacks, i like to go, (if i land in front of a dev), RM, F, RM, RM, F, RM, F, RM, RM. If they're not dead by then i jump out, but nothing survives that, even a serrated blade ta on fll health+sheilds vs me with no sheilds plus health dies to that. it's much more effective than people think. Death from above perk and being really mobile all the time are key. I got a 7 l;ong kill streak this afternoon when i discovered this on bassillica, turned a 12 - 26 losing team into a 41-35 winning team, (despite the enemy team having the only 3 low latency players, and those 3 coordinating on each other). Defintly a bit of a fluke, i doubt i could do it again, but really emphesised the power of a well played ASM for me.

[Shuma]

So what, you want the Assault Marine to be a flying Tactical marine? If you don't like how Assault Marines work don't use them, the Assault marine can already kill you from afar with the plasma pistol or bolt gun anyway.

[Carl]

I think the problem he's having shuma is that unless you play it just right a Dev/Tac with the right perks can outmelee an ASM and still outshoot them, they just aren't quite as mobile. The ASM takes a lot of finesse to beat certian Dev/Tac builds whilst those same builds facerape ASM who don;t have that kind of finesse. ASM are bassiclly SM's vershion of DoW1 Eldar IMHO.

[Gorb]

Devastators only melee rape ASM with fast stomp/improved stomp and a Heavy Bolter. The Plasma Cannon ends up killing them as well as the ASM, and the Lascannon usually can only get one reliable shot off (even no-scoped) if the ASM gets the jump right.

And if a Devastator has fast stomp/improved stomp, then he doesn't have an Iron Halo. Drop a grenade down on your way in (either type).

And DoW I Eldar really didn't take much finesse. DoW II Eldar, perhaps. DoW I Eldar, perhaps not

[Codex]

DOW I Eldar:

Dawn of Eldar

[Carl]

@Gorb: I meant more along the lins that DoW1 eldar where considered to require a very high micro level, (what many call skill), to be effective. The "skill" so to speak is obviouslly very diffrent between that and SM's ASM class, but the principle is the same. ASM require you to play them to within an inch of perfection to be truly effective.

[Gorb]

ASM can be played at all skills levels, and as just as fragile as a bad Tactical player, or a bad Devastator player (without Iron Halo or perhaps Feel no Pain).

DoW I Eldar did not require a high micro level to be effective for most of their existence, due to them being a very strong race from vDoW all the way through to Soulstorm, in terms of external (and internal) balance.

[Shuma]

Indeed, my point is that Assault Marines seem to work as intended, if you don't like how they play then don't play as them, i don't know what else to say.

[Carl]

If your talking in the sense of taking 3 scrubs gorb, then yes they're effective at all levels of play. But as soon as the tac or dev get a clue ASM have to be played to perfection or their just fodder for the Tacs and Devs. An average Dev or Tac will faceroll through ASM. Simply because even with their basic melee a Dev or tac is not incapble of severaly hurting an ASM, get any kind of visble damage on that ASM before things decend to that range, or just have a clue how to dodge away and ASM lose all effectivness. They just get cut down left, right, and centre. The only way to win against a Tac/Dev that can dodge or aim staright + melee is to combined dives, jumps, and melee + stun chains perfectly. Don't do that and you'll be gunned down, beaten in melee, or grenaded to death, or all 3.

[Sturmhaubitze]

I'm not a very good Assault player, but I do have fun going after other Assaults. For that, I bait them into the usual Jump / Death from Above matches that Assault vs Assault degenerate into. But then I dash away and just start shooting, and don't get into melee until I've got a very big advantage. Often times I never need to melee. Sure, Tacticals can do the shooting too, but if you're an Assault they often don't expect you to suddenly play like a Tactical instead. A very fast-moving Tactical. Regular bolt pistol, or True Grit bolter, works best since Assault armour is weak to begin with. Bolt pistol magazine perk helps a bit if your accuracy is not that great.

So if you don't like attacking Tacticals and Devastators as an Assault, go after enemy Assaults instead. It's a different kind of fight.

[Gorb]

If an average Assault player gets facerolled by a Tactical or Devastator with an ounce of skill, Carl, how can I get kills and killstreaks as an Assault player?

Hmm . . .

[ImmortalChaos]

The Assault however, gets to run round and kill people who aren't looking with 3 ranged weapons that do pretty much the same thing, and 3 melee weapons that pretty much do the same thing.

Now here is a real point. I take 3 devastator classes, one with each weapon. I could fill every single available loadout with different play-style tactical classes. Assaults... I can maybe fill out 2 classes if I want certain perks on one, but it really feels that no mater what gear you take, the assault never plays differently. Taking True Grit might make you choose to engage in ranged combat more, but the truth is that both pistols are very lethal. You might think the hammer is for hit and runs, but the fact of the matter is that the chainsword does that too.


I don't really know if everyone would accept this is as a problem, but as an assault player, it would be really really nice if there was a little more variety in the daily jump-land-chop-shoot-throw 'nades that is pretty much all you are capable of.

[Misiok]

But what variety would we want there to be? The game is simple, it's not like we can suddenly block/clash swords with others. Assaults are mostly melee, so I don't see giving them more ranged as an option. They could get a disable/vehicle eating options if there were any vehicles... :/
How about smoke grenades to sow confusion? One grenade per player, but it doesn't blind your allies. It's more like a suggestion but I don't think we can do much with this class.

[ImmortalChaos]

I think a good starting would would be to do... something to the Ax. It's currently an awkward middle that is overshadowed by both other options. I'm at a loss as for what though... if you give it some kind of stunning property, it immediately becomes better than the other options, and then it simply replaces them.

Honestly, while I do think there is more that could have been done, it's too far past the design phase now, and we'll probably not see anything big come, at least until an expansion or big DLC. It's probably fine that way... a balance patch should help whatever problems the assault has with other classes. Its internal monotony is just something we'll have to live with until we get more content.

[konfeta]

Take a page from Diablo 3 beta and let us chuck the axe. But, really, Assault Marines are melee. The only real way to introduce variation is through Jetpack perks.

Unless you want Assault Marines with Meltas and the like.

[Zallis]

Unless you want Assault Marines with Meltas and the like.

I can hear the screams of rage and frustration already. The only thing that could make me giddier at its OPness is flying plasma cannons.

[Shuma]

Only if we can give the Devastator a multi melta.

Edit:

Now that i think about it, instead of just thinking melta, think melta pistol for the ASM.

[ImmortalChaos]

Jetpack perks are a cool idea. One perk could remove most of the height from the jump, but give you a massive lateral boost. Maybe another would replace jumping all together, and you would simply hold the space bar to move at a greatly increased pace (like ASM move in DoW1) until fuel ran out.

Probably another idea to go down into the forum depths, however.


EDIT: Melta pistol, that's actually a pretty sweet idea. I don't think it'd be especially overpowered if they kept the range about as short or shorter than the full version. Probably slightly less damage too, it'd suck to get one-shotted by a pistol.

[Vardeus]

Inferno pistol...nom.

[Jaimas]

Oh for god's sake.

You want a one-trick pony? Look at a Devastator. They're remarkably effective one-trick ponies, but one-trick ponies nonetheless.

But Assault? Assaults are flexible. We're cappers. We're the guys forging ahead. We're the guys you can count on to troll a strategic point for minutes on end. We're the ones in the thick of it.

About the only issue I have with assault is that True Grit isn't worth a perk since the bolter you get is gimped.

[KDR_11k]

The ASM doesn't have much build variety but it offers a lot of flexibility without changing your build at all. You can sit back and use the PP to gun everything down, you can sneak up on entrenched enemies or cause trouble behind their lines, you can take a ton of shortcuts, you can go into melee, you can bail out of combat quickly, you can nade stuff from unexpected angles and you have full control over the engagement range. You need only one ASM loadout with your favourite configuration and it can be used for any situation.

More powerful close combat guns on the ASM would be too evil. Think about it, the tac's melta is already good and tacs have to slowly walk up to their target or hope for the target to get close to them. the ASM can just hop right over to the target and kill it.

[konfeta]

Tacs can roll and shoot. ASM would actually have more trouble with using the melta thanks to their hilarious animation.

[Codex]

The only thing that could make me giddier at its OPness is flying plasma cannons.

YES I WANT THIS RIGHT NOA PETITION PLX

[ADS]

Poke me then "true grit" will swap melee weapon by second plasma pistol.

[Shuma]

I'd pay for a perk that allowed me to go dual plasma as an assault marine. Is that a bad thing?

[CAPTN CAVERN]

For me, cause of frustration comes with the poor manoeuvrability of assaut marines.

In close quarter, the "tiny jumps" alowed by the Jump pack aren't effective then the Tactical Marine roll and sometimes is easier to fall back with a devastator who's not blocked by a to close wall...

On open area, the jump pack is disappointing too due to an drastric range restriction in comparison with the solo campaign :
- In multiplayer, the range is low and the visual field too...
- In solo, you have a good range and visual (the third person shooter view is less incapaciting).

So, ok, maps size aren't the same in solo and in multiplayer, but, here, we have the weakness class, with relative Ball-trap abilities (as a target..), with really relative efficiency in close battles (dues to enclosed level design and abilities of the others class), with poor manoeuvrability /escape range (report to the previously "Ball-trap" comment and jump-pack range).

I see two solutions for those broken birds :
- Add possibility to remove the jump pack and use the tactical roll... But it's contrary with the philosophy you put in this class
- Increase the Boom And Zoom capacity. Comparing to the WWII warbirds, we actually pilot a F4F Wildcat with an A6M Zero Armor..........

Oh and to finalize this to long post, please put a gauge or a visual asset for the Jump-pack charge. It's always better for a pilot to know when he can start the afterburner

[Shuma]

You already have a visual asset and sound effect for knowing if the Jump Pack is charged or not, look at the flames.

[KDR_11k]

The SP range on the jump pack is stupidly long, you can slam "down" at a very flat angle. In MP you're restricted to where you could have landed without slamming which makes a lot more sense. Seriously, the jump pack is fine, great even. If you're whining about it you're likely failing at the part that comes after landing. More range on the thing would completely nullify ranged weapons in MP.

[Zakarius]

So I've been taking the Assault Marine/Raptors for a spin recently and it's really bugging me how limited they are as a class. I am quite literally incapable of doing anything but melee, and as such more than half the map seems like a no go because of it. I'm finding the class actually playable rather than a chore since getting the Death from Above perk but over all it just feels very limited in what the class can do. The Assault class gets countered so easily by awareness and the dodge skill that it just needs more options to be a fun experience.


I'd suggest overhauling the True Grit skill myself. Make the Bolter a standard side arm, mainly because that thing is crap and not worth wasting a perk to get. It fires slowly, inaccurately, does bugger all damage and unlike the Tac's version, which is fast AND accurate, you can't buff it with perks either. With the Bolter turned into a basic side arm, the True Grit skill turns into the bolters buff perk, improving it's Accuracy, Rate of Fire and Recoil by a good 25%, or at least bringing it up to above the Tac's non-perked bolter.

Bam, Assault now has two styles of play off the bat and some decent ranged abilities.


If Tacs can insta-gib with with a melta, Devs can pound me with that health and stomp, then I want the Assault Class to not be completely worthless at ranged combat. Their melee skills are fine, abet slow, but they are just too limited in what they can do compared to the other classes in the game.


Of course I'd also like to see the Bolt Pistol be able to fire as fast as you can click but have the recoil/scatter ramped right up to compensate, so you can blast the person who dodged out of the way but scatter shots to the four winds if their any further away than just beyond melee range.

I think you need to learn how to use the tools already at your disposal as an ASM.

Or learn to play, if you prefer the layman's parlance.

[Mirage Knight]

Of course I'd also like to see the Bolt Pistol be able to fire as fast as you can click but have the recoil/scatter ramped right up to compensate, so you can blast the person who dodged out of the way but scatter shots to the four winds if their any further away than just beyond melee range.

I actually kinda like this idea - however it would need to extend to Tacticals and Devs as well. After all, a Bolt Pistol in any other hand is still a Bolt Pistol.

If Tacs can insta-gib with with a melta, Devs can pound me with that health and stomp, then I want the Assault Class to not be completely worthless at ranged combat.

Wait - what? BP's are a pretty decent ranged weapon and don't even get me started on PP's. The thing you're forgetting is that while they're decent in ranged combat, they excel at CC - that's their damn specialty. Seriously, as an ASM / Raptor you can demolish a Tactical or Dev in 1 - 2 hits with a Thunderhammer or Daemon Maul. ASM are quite fine...in some regards they're almost OP in the right hands and with the right equipment / perks.

What I really WOULD like to see is ASM get Flamers - but that's something that we'd probably only see in an expansion :/

I'd pay for a perk that allowed me to go dual plasma as an assault marine. Is that a bad thing?

Yes it is and you're going straight to Hell for even thinking of that. Hey, you asked

[BigSteve]

Once again, increase mobility by reducing long cumbersome animations, and if there is a way to reduce the clipping/collision on objects you should glance off of, ASM would excel at their melee superiority role more effectively.

[Gorb]

Assault Marines need something.

Actually, quite a few things need something, but I don't think I've gotten enough playing time to work it out yet.

[BigSteve]

(dedicated servers :P)

[Energizer Bunny]

I have to say, I do find ASM to be the least satisfying class to play. You have to work for your kills as a tac or a devastator, but as an ASM it just seems a binary bet: you either get in without them seeing you and you get a free kill or they see you in time and you get melvined.

I don't find ASM to be mobile enough to get the kill if the enemy sees them coming and that extends to when I'm playing other classes. 9 times out of 10 if I spot the ASM before he's literally hitting me in the back of the head I am going to put him down with my stormbolter. Ok if the first I know of him is when my screen starts flashing read I'm probably toast but I stay pretty mobile so that's quite rare.

Feel free to dogpile on me now ASM players.

[goosey_j]

ASMs are fine. Really, they are. The only thing I'm not mad on is the Axe. But they are probably the most well balanced class at the minute. The only challenge with playing the ASM is mixing the right perks and weapons.
I for one, always always ALWAYS take blind grenades. An enemy that has no idea where the **** you're coming from is going to die. Also I never leave home without the Plasma Pistol. A few quick shots as you descend on your ppray will strip their armour clean.

If you're using the Chainsword, then Air-cooled thrusters is essential. You need to quick as a sword user because you're fragile and don't have a lot of staying power. The sword is a pure manoeuvre/speed weapon. Death from above also works very well with the sword, as once you've plasma'd pistol'd them, then DFA them, a couple of quick sword swings will normally finish the job. Even Iron Halo Devastators go down relatively quickly. If you want a bit more survivability then swap DFA for Swordman's Zeal - the quick strikes of the sword get your health back pretty fast. Also as someone above me said, the stun charge with the chainsword is actually very useful because of it's speed. But remember, you are meant to be fragile. Get in, kill, get out. Always come at your target from an angle disadvantageous to them. Use everything in your power to avoid getting hit.

Thunder Hammer is, tbh, pretty damn easy to play with. Killing Blow and DFA + Plasma Pistol will make short work out of anyone. Just remember to jump out as soon as you've made your kill.

The Axe is probably the hardest weapon to use well, but I've seen guys using Axeman's Zeal and Bulletproof (or whatever the defense perk is called) to good effect, you can generally stick around a bit longer in combat and it's not pleasant for Tacs to deal with.

These are just my 2 pence, and it's not gospel, but you have to pick perks which compliment your weapon or you'll just spend your time chasing around rolling tacs or getting gibbed before you can kill anyone.

And just for reiteration - Blind Grenades. Plasma Pistol. Seriously.

[Carl]

If your using blid grenades i'd love to know how. Most maps don;t let you get high enough and far enough away at the same time to throw them far enough that you won;t blind yourself, ye will be able to reacha target before they wear off.

That said being quick with the swrd is the key. Oh and avoid the hammer like the plauge. That and the axe have animations that can be aimed less well, (you can't turn as much during them), and swing slower. With those if you miss even one swing you will die. The sword dosen't care because it's so aimable and so fast your far less likliy to miss and can stand a miss if needs be.

[goosey_j]

You serious bro? Blind grenades are awesome! The only map I find their effectiveness limited on is Basillica because of how spacious it is.
I generally toss them into where I'm going a split second before I jump. You have to know where you're going and where your prey is. Manufactorum, for example, awesome with blinds. Chuck a blind over the crates into the centre bit (point B?) Jump, plasma, DFA then sword strike and get out of there.
Honestly I don't think I could play assault without blind grenades.

[Carl]

In Seize ground that probably works fine. In anhallation you rarely know so precisly where your opponnent is without taking to the air first. You need to actually be airborne to use them, which dosen't tend to work so well with blind nades.

[goosey_j]

That's a fair point, I don't tend to play annihilation a lot so I can't say I can speak with experience on the matter. I'll give it a try tonight though and see how it goes

[Carl]

That may explain our diffrances of opinion on several matter, i find Seize Ground extremly laggy to the point of unplayable much of the time. Add in terribble team balance that turns them into perpetual one sided matches and i get fed up with it really quick. TYhough the automatcher is getting really bad for matching me up with people with terribad connections lately. I don;t think i've had a lag free game for 50 games or so. My love affair witht he storm bolter has coem to an abrupt end because of that.

[goosey_j]

Ahhh man, that's a shame :< I generally tend to get luck with my connections, and if it really sucks I just leave. It will be sorted out in the future though, no worries! Where abouts in the world do you live? That might have something to do with it.
I love Seize ground though, had some absolutely epic games on it.

[Carl]

Where abouts in the world do you live?

Northen UK, If it's unplayable i'll leve generally, but low grade lag, (a tenth to a few tenths of a second), is pretty persistant for me.