Melee stuns - WHAT IS THE POINT!?

[Steel*Faith]

One thing that has really bothered me about the melee stun combos in MP, is that they seem pretty worthless due to the non-effect is has on enemy players. Typically I play a Tactical Marine, and I use the serrated knife perk because I like getting in close.

The problem with stuns is that they leave you vulnerable to your target and enemy players. I don't know if it's a bug, but when I use a stun combo, the enemy can just keep on moving and attacking, while I'm stuck recovering from the stun animation - so it seems to have the reverse effect you'd hope it to have. So what's the point of a stun in MP? Is this a bug, or does it have to be improved?

Oh, and nothing is more cheesy and frustrating than an ASM/Raptor with Final Vengeance and getting stuck in a stun attack animation after you kill him.

[konfeta]

The hammer stun + stun combo is pretty damn awesome, especially with interrupt perks.

Devastator stuns can lock a target until death and the stomp is a free win against an ASM who doesn't back off.

Tac stuns... no point except for a rare shoulder tackle surprise to finish off an opponent, but that is more damage than stun.

[Steel*Faith]

Yea, so the SM attack + stun button combos are indeed worthless? So that means Relic needs to patch the game so that Tacticals can at least interrupt and stun opponents. As it is right now it only makes you vulnerable and exposed to attacks.

[Gabriel Gorgutz]

This is another game that was rushed out the door. There were a lot of things fixed in the last patch, but multiplayer isn't balanced and a lot of things don't work right. You'll have to experiment to find the "right" button combo since many combos of X and Y are traps that will get you killed. Also, if you want the best close range character, pick a heavy bolter dev or a melta tac. ASM are only good for ninja capping and sneak attacks (preferrably with a team that can finish off your target for you). Avoid devs as ASM and focus on capping points. If a dev has the point locked down just respawn as a dev or a tac and pick appropriate weapons.

[Steel*Faith]

This topic isn't about ASM's sucking in close combat - because that's simply not true. I do quite well in melee with ASM, and I can kill most players quite easily with a power axe or chainsword.

I'm talking more about Tacticals having a useless stun attack. I use the improved melta gun reload perk with serrated blade, and i do really well - I just don't use the stun attack. It just makes the melee combat feel really shallow without being able to use combos. Not that it is easy to use though, getting in close with a Tactical takes skill for sure, and I enjoy the challenge of closing in with the enemy to melt their face off and then kick their ass with a knife!

[Vuther]

The stun manuveur should be sped up, allowing the inevitable melee follow-up to get a decent amount of extra time.

Do it for shoulder-charging too! It tends to be much more trouble than it's worth.

[Trizzdog]

Yep. The shoulder charge is especially frustrating, since you need to sprint to get into melee. But then the wind down is slower than the enemy's response, so the typical result after you do it is herp derp gun to face. I feel the stun is fine for devs and assaults though. Just the tacs that have serious problems with the stuns.

[konfeta]

Don't bother with the Shoulder Charge. Do the mini-hop + tackle. You can change direction mid-maneuver, it actually is the only unperked stun you have that doesn't lock you for longer than the target, and it hits really, really hard if you go Furious Charge perk - it will nearly kill a full Tac/ASM in 1 hit (assuming you don't get screwed by glancing blow nonsense).

[Vuther]

Don't bother with the Shoulder Charge. Do the mini-hop + tackle. You can change direction mid-maneuver, it actually is the only unperked stun you have that doesn't lock you for longer than the target, and it hits really, really hard if you go Furious Charge perk - it will nearly kill a full Tac/ASM in 1 hit (assuming you don't get screwed by glancing blow nonsense).

Explain that again? Which buttons do ya got to press for that?

[konfeta]

You basically do the same thing as the ground pound, but you need to initiate the attack before the ground pound reticule appears.

So, do press the jump key/button once (do not hold down so jetpack doesn't activate full force), look at target/location, press attack. If you do this correctly, you will do a short air-dash shoulder forward. I use this all the time to catch to Tactical Marines; and unperked it does roughly 2 chainsword hits worth of damage.

[Hirmetrium]

I think what konfeta is trying to explain is the ASM equiv to the tac roll/devastator hop - press space ONCE in a direction and you'll blast that way - press the melee button if you aimed at a target to smash them good and it will REALLY HURT. if they have taken any other damage, they generally die out right.

Only problem I've found is that the hit box/collision mechanics for it are absolute shit - about 1/4 jump barges do I actually hit, with it not registering or me actually hitting the air above them for the rest of the time. When it collides, your opponent is dead - if it doesn't, that's generally the point you finish him or GET OUT NOW.

[Vuther]

I totally did not know Assault Marines could pair pressing space with some extra melee bite. I relish at the idea of trying it.

[Hirmetrium]

Well, its the move that powers up furious charge.

In other news, stuns are useless. At least, thats the impression I get?

[Brenil]

They are and their uselessness is further compounded by the fact that the netcode isn't the greatest in this game. Attempting to interrupt someone's melee combo with anything but dodging will leave you dead by the time the game registered your attempted interrupt.

[silencer]

well sometimes, if a assault marine/raptor stuns tactical marine with whatever attack, the tactical marine's weapon will not shoot straight forward but rather at the ground, atleast I'm experiencing this thing, I hate it... if you are in this state of crappy aim you just can't hit that guy anymore and lose the fight...

but I play this game on ps3, I don't know if PC has the same.

[Vuther]

Well, its the move that powers up furious charge.

In other news, stuns are useless. At least, thats the impression I get?

I thought that was fer shoulder charges!? Did I terribly misread it?

[Zallis]

It works for both, but for a variety of reasons, you're never going to use the shoulder charge. Or, rather, in any situation in which you would shoulder charge someone, you're better off using the flying tackle.

And I have to agree with the netcode fix before stuns are even worth considering. Even if stuns worked well, the horrible netcode will usually get you killed. Whenever I use the dev stomp (the only stun that actually seems to be worth it right now), my attacker usually manages to kill me and fly off before he suddenly gets hit and dies.

[Hirmetrium]

Zallis, I've experienced that AS THE HOST - I kill somebody, and by all rights as host I should damn well of killed them - but then I'll drop dead, and a few seconds later in the kill board I'll see "Hirmetrium -BOLTER- XXXX". Whatever is up with the netcode, it is really fucking wrong.

[Jaimas]

Zallis, I've experienced that AS THE HOST - I kill somebody, and by all rights as host I should damn well of killed them - but then I'll drop dead, and a few seconds later in the kill board I'll see "Hirmetrium -BOLTER- XXXX". Whatever is up with the netcode, it is really fucking wrong.

Almost everyone has had this happen, on some level or another, with this game. To give a comic:



This game's netcoding is some of the worst I have ever seen.

[Hirmetrium]

Yes Jamias, but I assumed that was the case for clients - I'm talking about being the host, whom receives all connections and decides what hits count. One of the biggest complaints about P2P is the "host advantage" - in Space Marine, it seems host gives you a distinct DISADVANTAGE, because for some reason every hit you make is ignored until after the client stops lagging. It's one of the most stupid things I've ever seen.

I really hope Mac_Bug and Relic are looking at it - otherwise I'm going to be finding ork axes in my head when I least expect it during exterminatus.

[Gorb]

The whole "the netcode is terrible/worst I have ever seen" argument is actually kinda dumb. The netcode could probably be improved upon (it's not something that I, or I think virtually anybody in this subforum, actually knows something about), but the main issue is people with a lesser connection playing against people with better connections. That is what causes the disparity, and this is present in any game, server-based or P2P, where you get someone teleporting around the map due to their high ping.

[Hirmetrium]

Gorb, by all logic that should favour the host - he should win every fight because the other guys reactions are behind.

But it doesn't. It's like I said - hosts seem to have a distinct disadvantage. That's really confusing.

[Sturmhaubitze]

My theory is that the game's netcode is giving preference to the attacker's view of the world, rather than the host's or victim's version of events.

If the game lags and an enemy gets stuck in front of you, your shots are counted even though on his screen he's already around the corner. Whether it's the attacker lagging, or the victim lagging, the host interprets the situation as 'attacker hit victim 10 times', and ignores the victim's side of the story. This is what causes people dying around corners from bolter shots that seemed to pass through the wall, or assault marines dying from explosions after jumping 20m away. Not all the shots are registered, as the host will ignore a few, but the bias is on the attacker's side of the story.

It makes the lascannon truly devastating in a laggy game, since the attacker is seeing people go stationary and it makes for easy shots. On your end you're jumping, diving, running, and moving from cover to cover, but still getting shot. Doesn't matter if the lascannon user was the host or not, all that mattered is that the game as a whole was lagging, so that the targets were stuttering and going stationary.


It's definitely different than Call of Duty: MW2, where the host's version of events is what counts. In that game, the host has a distinct advantage, and people with poor ping to the host will suffer. This leads to cries of 'Host sucks' and 'Host leave!' and so forth. You know you're host if everyone's connection to you is poor, as everyone will have poor reaction times and you'll easily get the first shot in. If you're not host, and you've got poor ping to him, the host appears to be shooting the very instant they appear, destroying you without giving you a chance.

[Gorb]

Gorb, by all logic that should favour the host - he should win every fight because the other guys reactions are behind.

But it doesn't. It's like I said - hosts seem to have a distinct disadvantage. That's really confusing.

I think you put an extra "host" in there somewhere

What Sturmhaubitze says makes sense, and it makes me wonder if Space Marine is actually fairer than we give it credit for.

[konfeta]

It's fair in terms that latency seems to be doing something akin to Team Fortress 2 lag compensation, i.e. ambushes are made artificially difficult to counter, but in my experience, this compensation was far less noticeable in TF2.

If both players are facing each other, they should be aware that the other person will receive information on their latest action fractions of a second after he initiates them. In practical terms, this rewards bold aggressive moves - if, for example, two melta Tacs are circling each other, waiting for the opportune one shot kill, barring bad luck, the guy who moves in first lands it before his opponent will even see him move up.

I don't really like relying on it because it becomes a game of chance instead of reflexes. I mostly make use of it by being aware that the grenade or charged plasma cannon shot is actually 100MS-300MS ahead of where I am seeing it is, so I am fairly comfortable at dodging those things.

[Jaimas]

Lag Compensation is a fact in every FPS and TPS on the market, but Space Marine's is especially egregious and supposedly, very vulnerable to manipulation.

Dunno if this is true for the others, but the Xbox version is rife with accusations of Standbying, a lag exploitation method that was common in Halo 2. Whilst I havent had the chance to personally test it, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

[Steel*Faith]

All I care about is they fix this damn stun problem. Make shoulder charge, stun and all stun attacks actually work! Then we can finally has some more depth to the melee system beside spamming the attack button over and over. Heck, if you're going to fix the problem, why not make a big improvement while you're at it Relic, and make a better melee combo for attack, stun, attack stun - or - attack, attack, stun, attack etc kind of combos.

[CoraxCartman]

It's rather simple. If the match you're in is lagging u have 2 options:
1. Don't use melee stuns and just spam attack button (which, I know, is boring)
OR
2. Just screw everything and leave to join another match

And still there's a high probability you'll get into another laggy match.

Yea...lag...

[Tacoma Yakko]

On topic, I'd like to point out that with a tac, stun-strike-stun is a great last resort or surprise move against an assault marine. If the kick doesn't outright kill them, then another strike or whatever weapon you're carrying will.

[konfeta]

Shoulder charge is more reliable for anti-assault purposes IMO. At least in laggier environments.

[Dimension]

it also works vs melta tacs. well, sort of. trouble is that stun just isn't reliable enough, it often simply won't register.

[Zallis]

Eh, it seems the new constant host switching thing tends to find better hosts, so stuns work relatively well now. They stop someone from continuing their melee combo, but won't stop their current attack from hitting you. So, for example, if you hit an assault with the stun while he's in mid swing, the attack will still hit you, but he won't be able to continue the combo again. I'm actually loving the stun now because shooting the assault a few times then stunning him and using a melee combo will generally kill him. I've actually beaten up a few hammer assaults using the roll to get behind them and then hitting them with the stun form behind.

Since getting levels or a high kill/death ratio is meaningless once you're level 41, it's fun to just run around with a serrated knife, beating up assaults who think you're an easy kill. THe only thing that screws this up is death from above, since that does a lot of damage and stuns you too.

[Dimension]

As an aside, as I've just found out, a tactical with activated stims and serrated knife will kill an ASM with a single shoulder charge if its spot on.

[Kalimac]

Yeah, that's a pretty fun build:



(Not my video, but it's pretty awesome.)

[Imperial Honour]

Oh god I Just think I died laughing at that video. Some funny stuff that build, can't imagine how confused and raged up the opposition must have been when they got alpha shoulder striked. Heck he\she even managed to chain some killstreaks together using it, haha.

I'll have to try messing around with it for something different to try.

[Zallis]

Yeah, must be particularly rage-inducing for assaults. "Oh, look, a lone tac. Easy kill fo - WHAT THE FUCK FUCK YOU YOU ASSHOLE DIEFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOU!"

Stuns are actually worth it now. Most of the time the lag isn't too bad because the host seems to switch constantly until it finds the "ideal" one, which is generally better than it was before. A tac can beat up an assault marine if he hits him a few times with his gun, stuns him, then starts slashing with the knife. With serrated blade, all you need is melee, and you can probably even win if the assault ground pounds you (unless he has DFA). Haven't tested with combat drugs, mostly because I hate them.

Dev kick is also hilarious because it does reasonable damage and also stuns incredibly well. If someone is chasing after you with a melee weapon, pull out the bolt pistol, kick him, and then start backing away and shooting him in the face. The vast majority of people start walking towards you rather than trying to fly away. Most of the time you'll kill the assault before he can walk up and start slashing you again. A bit tricker with hammer assaults, because you never know if they have killing blow (unless the kill you previously and you know they have it).