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I feel that currently they are THE most pathetic weapon in the Tactical's arsenal.
They ought to be able to do at most 50% of the damage a chainsword does - but they don't. Outside of a certain perk, there seems to be little way a Tactical can defend themselves against an Assault in CC range.
Nothing wrong with regular combat knives being poop against Marines. They are meant to be poop against Marines. Maybe make melee combat location-based, so you can stab someone in the face, but beyond that these shouldn't be very good at countering other melee.
I agree. The combat knife is a very poor weapon, and Serrated Combat Blade doesn't make it much better. Sure, with SCB it does the same damage per hit as a chainsword, but it still has a much shorter range and doesn't have the final swing a chainsword does. What ends up happening is that a Tactical ends up losing to everything in melee, when he should at least stand a chance against an Assault or Devastator. If a combat knife is losing to a Devastator's boot, something's wrong with the game.
Wait, seriously? A Dev kicking you in the shins and chest does more damage than an adamantium-bladed combat knife?
This I like. Very much.Maybe make melee combat location-based, so you can stab someone in the face
In fluff though Combat Knives are about as good as Chainswords against Powered Armour - same strength and AP characteristics. The advantage Assaults have is that they can whack at their opponents a bit faster. Power Weapons on the other hand can and should be able to melt through armour like a hot knife through butter.Nothing wrong with regular combat knives being poop against Marines. They are meant to be poop against Marines.
The thing is, when they said tacs was both melee and range orientated , i figure chain sword plus pistol, to possibly Axe. Where assault had the most damaging melee stuff. However tacs is more range than melee than anything, when they excel at both technically.
No qaurter back men, only forward or we will hold this line forever!!!
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Row Row Row Fight the Powha
I'm not sure on the damage MK, but the Devastator's boot hits fairly hard and does interrupt. I once melee'd an Assault to death with a few kicks with an un-perked boot and he didn't or couldn't get out of the way.
They actually do the same damage as the Chainsword per hit. What it lacks is speed, range, tracking. The Serrated Knife Perk apparently brings the damage up to power axe level.They ought to be able to do at most 50% of the damage a chainsword does - but they don't. Outside of a certain perk, there seems to be little way a Tactical can defend themselves against an Assault in CC range.
Personally, I think it should have been a "give Tacs a Chainsword" perk. Not having a Jetpack is a big enough disadvantage to keep it fair.
Really? Thanks for sharing that bit of info - most helpful with regard to this discussion! Then perhaps a speed buff for the Combat Knife might be in order...or perhaps a slowdown for Chainswords and Power Axes / Chain Axes?They actually do the same damage as the Chainsword per hit. What it lacks is speed, range, tracking.
Interesting - I mentioned that in my Serrated Blades discussion threadPersonally, I think it should have been a "give Tacs a Chainsword" perk
I think the perk is lame in general. It should be replaced with a perk that allows you to wield any of the melee weapons. If you take a Thunderhammer though, it will not allow you to wield a ranged weapon other than the bolt pistol. Perhaps the perk can also boost the running speed of the tactical slightly as well to compensate.
People will say that Tacticals might be useless without their powerful ranged weapons, but I don't agree. With the Tactical roll ability, that alone gives the Tactical a powerful ability in melee fights and for surviving in most situations. If they manage to fix the stuns the Tacticals possess (particularly the running charge), I think a melee oriented Tactical will be a dangerous class if used properly.
I'd agree the combat knife is currently lame. Maybe increase its damage against health only to avoid it becoming anywhere near Assault/Raptor capable but still having a niche for close-combat on some occasions?
The blades are stabbing weapons. Space Marines have redundant organs. Hence, I'm not too upset about how weak they are. In other shooters, you can usually 1-shot people if you get close enough to cut them with your knife, but that's basically what we have with the Thunder Hammer's perk. Imagine what it would be like if everyone could do that.
Plus, for all intents and purposes, Tacs are shooty. Every one of their weapon options is a gun. It's not like the SP campaign, where you could have an effective melee weapon AND an effective gun (or several). Think of the marines we can play in MP as your basic Space Marine, and think of Titus as the Captain he is (or even a Veteran). In the TT game, Veterans have True Grit, which allows them to have both a chainsword AND a Bolter (and not a gimped Bolter, but one just as effective as one used by anyone else). If the Tacs in the MP side were Veterans, then I would expect them to be competent at melee AND shooty, but as they are, they're shooty, and melee effectiveness is reserved for the Assaults.
Fac et Spera
Can we get an explanation on why the heavy weapon class is so much better at close-combat than the Jack-of-all-trades?
...There's nothing in close combat that the devastator can do that the tactical marine can't do. Tacs can stomp, and rolling away from an assault is a far better way of dealing with them than hoping you can stun + kill him in melee range before he unleashes on you.
#14
I don't know Jaimas, but you should probably resurrect your other thread instead of taking this one off-topic.
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
The point I was getting at, Gorbykins, is that they shouldn't be. Melee effectiveness should be Dev/Tac/Assault in that order.
^^ Don't you mean Assault>Tac>Dev?
Strangers, you bring pain. You bring suffering. You bring so many dreams of dust and death.
But, strangers, I am Icarium.
And I bring far worse.
Was going in ascending order. Dev at bottom, Tac above Dev, Assault above Tac.
I'll let you off then!
We're carrying on the tactical discussion here.
As things stand now, the perk that lets Tacticals survive close encounters of the Assault kind isn't Serrated Blade - it's Weapon Versatility. Meltaguns are pretty much the go-to way to deal with Assaults, since the damage Tacticals do is nowhere near high enough to allow them to fight off a typical assault - a situation made worse by the game's atrocious lag (a problem already with its own thread).
Putting it simply: the knife the Tactical uses is unequivocally the worst weapon in Space Marine.
In lab tests against every build I've tested - even unperked ones - it loses handily to - literally - every other marine type. Why varies, but the breakdown is as follows:
* Dev mighty boot kick can't combo, but deals about the same damage as 2 standard knife swings, meaning it does more damage in less time (albeit with a much longer lag between strikes). Dev stun, of course, godlessly rapes the tactical in ways that are difficult to describe.
* Tacticals with Serrated Blade fare a little better, but will still reliably lose to every class but an unperked Tactical in melee combat - the other Marine classes have better stun that disrupts combos and makes the Tactical about as effective as grease on fire (Devastator) or simply so badly outstrips it in a damage race that it approaches comical (Assault).
* Combat Drugs even the ground a little; With Serrated and Drugs, a Tactical can put down an unperked Assault about two-thirds of the time, but this goes instantly to hell if the Assault has any perks worth a damn (Sure Strike, Furious Charge, Zeal), and a Drug/Serrated Tactical goes from winning 2/3 of the time to winning 20% of the time. It still loses to the Devastator due to the Dev's easy-to-use Stun, and will lose about 100% of the time to a competent Dev using the Stomp-and-Spray tactic.
Now it is worth noting that the Knife can make a very useful finishing tool when paired up with the Meltagun, Storm Bolter, Plasma Gun, or Grenades. Once a target is suitably "softened up," the Knife can be handy for putting them down quickly, making it good for a sort of "one-two" punch. This is, ironically, how I scored my first kill in multiplayer - an unfortunate assault had its shield downed by an allied player, allowing me to kill it by approaching and swinging my knife like a boss. Unfortunately, while useful, this doesn't change that as things stand, Tacticals are the worst melee combatants in Space Marine, and the weakness of the knife renders it a bad joke.
Fixing the knife itself has two major roadblocks that are completely at odds with fixing its actual problems. First is the obvious: Players don't want to see the Tactical become the Assault, after all. Second, and more pressing, is that the Devastator's melee is hilariously overpowered, and if I had a dollar for every time I saw Stomp-and-Spray kill an Assault (let alone a tactical) that by all accounts should have turned the Devastator into a brightly-colored smear on the floor, I'd be able to treat those who have currently posted in this thread to a fine dinner.
Obviously, un-breaking the Devastator's melee is part of the solution, to be sure, but it is not, contrary to what many think, a perfect solution - it does not address the other issues of the Tactical's melee - which are that it's woefully nonviable against even other Tacticals, still can't put a dent in a Devastator with FNP, and has no chance whatsoever against even an unperked assault. For a class of Marine which is supposed to be focused on versatility and a mix of close and long-ranged combat by its own description in the manual, this will simply not do. Contrary to what several think (that the Tactical's melee is intended to be nothing but a finish-off-weapon), the Tactical is intended to have close-combat competence, as evidenced not only by Titus in the campaign, by the in-game descriptions, and by the manual, but via the very existence of the Serrated Blade perk, which is intended to optimize them for melee combat!
With this in mind, a compromise is in order. Serrated Blade is a wasted perk - it does not make a Tactical viable in close-combat (when it's supposed to). My proposed fix is as follows:
1. Nerf Devastator Stun by increasing the recovery time after it's used.
This will prevent it from being used as an infinitely-spammable stun-locker that lets Devs routinely school Assaults when latency permits, and prevents the dumbassery that is Stomp-and-Spray.
2. Improve Tactical stun effects.
As it stands, Tactical stuns come out too slowly, last too short, and don't do enough to stun enemies to warrant their use.
Having the above two completed effectively fixes the non-perk Tactical. But what of Serrated Blade? Glad you asked.
3. Serrated Blade gives UNPERKED (a-la True Grit) Chainsword.
Let me explain the logic behind this. In addition to being fluffy as all hell, the Serrated Blade perk, as it stands, gives the knife roughly equal DPS to the Chainsword already (slightly less damage, but roughly-equivalent DPS). What it does not give, however, are the other benefits of actually using a chainsword - the reach, the utility, ability to chase, and combo ability. This change, thus, would be partly cosmetic, and would have relatively little to do with the Tactical's actual DPS. What it would change, however, is how viable melee for a Tactical is, because the Chainsword would offer better reach and more reliable damage. By keeping the sword unperked, it prevents the tactical from stepping on the Assault's toes, makes it a legitimate upgrade, and makes it desirable and a viable alternative to Versatility and grabbing a Melta for dealing with things like enemy tacticals in CQC or weakened or unaware assaults (especially in unfavorable terrain like the tunnels and centeral point of Shattered Bridge). All in all, it fixes the perk whilst not breaking it, and keeps it a viable option, which, I feel, is the ultimate point.
One last option if it's deemed too strong is to give the Chainsword, but with a slightly slower attack speed (roughly equal to the axe's). This would require the Chainsword to be a negligable bit stronger than it would be for the tac to compensate and keep the DPS as it should be, but is a viable way to include it and include a check on it so it won't be underpowered. Your thoughts?
EDIT: Annoyance, thy name is doublepost.
This is what I'd like to see happen with melee combat in general: Equalize the Stuns / Interrupts used by Devs and Tacticals (I'm definitely advocating a nerf to Dev stun) and have the Dev's Kick, the Tactical's Knife and the Assault's Chainsword inflict the same HP and Armour damage and have the same attack speed. However, make it so that switching to a pistol automatically grants a 50% increase to melee attack speed. Seeing as Assaults are almost always equipped with pistols, they'd get that attack speed bonus automatically, whereas a Tactical or Dev would need to switch weapons to get that bonus - but doing so would allow them to fight an Assault in CC on fairly equal terms. Fluffy and balanced as well.
The advantage that being equipped Chainsword would have is that it has extra reach, which is where Serrated Blades comes in: It would grant the Tactical with a Chainsword, giving him the bonus of extra reach in melee and of course a nice, shiny, snarly Chainsword. Note: said Chainsword would still be subject to the same damage and attack speed rules I proposed earlier, meaning if the Tactical switched to his pistol, he'd have the same reach, attack speed and damage as an Assault with an unperked Chainsword. If he used a Chainsword while equipped with any of the other ranged weapons he can get, the Chainsword would have a slower attack speed. So what advantage would an Assault with a Chainsword have over a Tactical with a Chainsword perk? Same ones he's always had - superior mobility, faster melee by default, and Ground Pound.
I believe that with these changes, the Tactical's Combat Knife will become more than just a finisher or last ditch weapon but a legitimate combat weapon and that melee itself will be a bit more balanced.
Last edited by Mirage Knight; 12th Nov 11 at 6:09 PM. Reason: Clarifying some points.
An interesting idea, but far more reaching than my idea. Do you suppose it will fly with the balance team?
What perks did you have in mind? Obviously not Zeal.Originally Posted by everyone
There are no buffs available to the ASM chainsword anyway so you can drop the UNPERKED sales pitch.
Swordsman's Zeal doesn't buff the weapon, but it does help the player and it's a perk that applies to the weapon. The reason I said unperked was for the sake of comparison. Classes, weapons and abilities should be compared by unmodified values IMO.There are no buffs available to the ASM chainsword anyway so you can drop the UNPERKED sales pitch.
Have to wait and see I guess.Do you suppose it will fly with the balance team?
Hmm, except that the option to upgrade weapons is a balance variable and it's being offered up here to plead the case that a chainsword on a Tac isn't OP.Classes, weapons and abilities should be compared by unmodified values IMO
An ASM chainsword's values can't be upgraded so a Tac sword will always have the same lethality as an ASM sword.
But only under a certain condition - that being the Tactical would have to switch to a Bolt Pistol to gain the same lethality with a Chainsword that an Assault with a Chainsword would normal get. That would not be OP - it would be breaking even.
Yeah, I understand but I'm not sure whether it would be very popular in practice.
If the premise is to replace or modify the Serrated perk it almost seems like a handicap to have to switch up weapons to every time you want to melee and therefore make use of the valuable perk slot.
The mechanics for bolter/sword used in the campaign work a treat I reckon. Let's face it - that's how we try to play the knife now. Empty your mag and then come in swinging.
It's one of the plays I really miss in MP. Just dial down the silly 'commando pro' range for a Tac a smidge and I reckon you're almost there.
#27
@Jaimas: the fact that Titus wields all three class weapon types in the Campaign kinda screws your (flimsy) reasoning of "he has this weapon, ergo Tacticals in MP should have this kind of proficiency".
I still maintain that the Knife is intended for a finisher, and not intended for use in melee combat against a melee class (despite Jaimas complaining about how Tacticals can't take Assaults in melee. No shit. Assaults can't take Tacticals at range). Obviously, Devastator melee is a problem here, and one that is I think agreed by all.
Finally, Jaimas, you can pull as many role definition/fluff reasoning/SP Campaign excuses as you like, but they are ultimately useless given that they are either anecdotal (fluff-based) or from a game mode that has different mechanics entirely (SP). It's like me saying Tactical melee is balanced because Tacticals suck in melee in DoW I (where, I shall note, they used Combat Knives and not any form of Chainsword). It's a (frankly) stupid comparison.
EDIT: not against nerfing Devastator stomp or buffing Tactical melee combos - i.e. their stun (though if that's the case, perhaps looking at the recovery animation on Assault charge would be nice as well <3), for the record.
And yes, Serrated is a weak perk. I propose that we should take that perk's discussion elsewhere, or turn this thread into debate about that perk (and perhaps other perks). There is too much confusion between the perk and the melee capabilities of the respective classes.
...If you read my post, you'd know that Titus was only one of three reasons that I listed, with the other two being in-game-documentation and the manual. Both specify that the Tactical is supposed to be a versatile combatant, with a blend of CQC and ranged combat. This is in-game documentation. Know what else says that? This and just about every other official source, including the Tabletop army lists. Remember that in TT, the Chainsword is a close-combat weapon and offers no statistical improvements over say, a sharpened spork.
You can go on and about how the knife is intended as a finishing weapon and shouldn't be improved based on your own playstyle and experience. That's fine - but it's ignoring what I just posted. Here's a fun fact: My fix, offered above, does nothing to improve Tactical DPS or alter it in any huge way - unperked, it simply fixes their stun attacks and nerfs the Devastator Stun of Doom, both of which are arguably more bugfixes than anything else. All of this leads me to believe that you did not, in fact, read my post at all.
The Serrated Blade perk, however, needs to be discussed, and is inseperable from any discussion about Tactical melee combat. it is, simply put, a perk intended to improve melee, and it doesn't do a good job of that even with the perk in place. You have yet to explain, in any thread here, how an unperked (and nerfed, if need be - read my post plzkthx) for the Tactical would be, in any way, a holocaust of game balance. I specifically addressed how it could be done to not step on the Assault's toes and still be viable above.
You're not taking a perk to improve melee out of a discussion about melee.
I really don't see any issue with implementing the chainsword as the close combat weapon for tactical marines, by tweaking the Serrated Blade perk as Jaimas suggests. The combat knife sees extremely little use in the current state of the game (as in I haven't seen it been used for about 98% of my total amount of games, and I'm up at above 80 hours of multiplayer game time now), and it's not like this modified Serrated perk with added chainsword would break the game in any way. More variety to the game is most likely just a big plus.
» Initiate a tactical withdrawal! «
#30
Possibly not Jaimas, but your main point is that Tactical melee "sucks". I disagree on that key tenet. I do not disagree that Serrated is useless from a design point of view (and this naturally has translated to implementation).
Hence, I'm still against giving a Chainsword with Serrated. Upping the Knife's damage to near-Chainsword levels? Sure, why not. After all, it's an extra weapon that you don't lose anything for unlike True Grit.
You still haven't explained where the balance issue comes in. Serrated already does damage that is virtually identical to Chainsword, and - again - I already discussed that if it was still overpowered, an adequate fix would be nerfing the swing speed to that of the axe's. How is this, in any way, shape, or form, a balance nightmare, Gorb? Elucidate your thoughts.
#32
I was under the impression Serrated did noticeably less than a Chainsword? Going on what I understood of coldplay's recent post on the subject, at least. This is why you shouldn't just assume that both your knowledge is correct and/or the person you're debating with is going on incorrect knowledge or assumptions.
It leads you to throwing out statements such as "All of this leads me to believe that you did not, in fact, read my post at all." - which would possibly be true if I was on the same wavelength with regards to damage dealt with the Combat Knife when buffed with Serrated.
My issues are with your argumentation and your methodology when it comes to proposing said arguments. Your comparisons are often terrible (as a recent example, ASM with True Grit somehow being comparable to Tactical with Serrated, despite the fact that TG sacrifices your sidearm while Serrated buffs an additional weapon type that doesn't impact what you can normally choose from), and you handwave away criticism with regards to your reasoning by re-iterating the problem you perceive with the weapon/class/mechanic/perk, and asking why I (or whomever) is against "fixing" said "issue".
It does? I thought you got the bolter on top of the pistol. Wow, if it really does remove the pistol, it beats blastoff for the shittiest ASM perk.despite the fact that TG sacrifices your sidearm while Serrated buffs
Labs seem to show consistently that swings-to-kill isn't noticeably less than a chainsword.I was under the impression Serrated did noticeably less than a Chainsword?
#34
Fair enough; I barely use Serrated (as I have said previously), so I concede that point, konfeta!
If True Grit gives you the Bolter additionally, then I'm an idiot for never swapping weapons and equipping the Plasma Pistol
*mindrays on*
Now concede that Serrated Edge perk should give Tacs a Chain Sword. It's even there, in the name!
*mindrays off*
#36
True Grit replaces your sidearm with a Bolter. That means no pistol.
Can we offtopicrail this thread into buffing True Grit? Because that is just an awful, awful thing to do to a perk.
Yes it is. And no, you shouldn't.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...sion-True-Grit
Thank you, Brother Danustar.
As for the damage, Serrated Blade's damage is a tiny-bit less than the chainsword, but the number of swings-to-kill is roughly the same as the Chainsword.
This has been discussed at length in many a thread.
According to a reputable source, Coldplay, the damage for the Chainsword is about 70, 72, 80 damage when you chain 3 attacks together: 70 for the first hit, 72 for the next and 80 for the last, so 70+72+80 for a 3-hit combo. Without Serrated Blades, the Tactical's Combat Knife apparently does 40 or 45 damage per hit when you chain attacks. With Serrated Blades, it's about 65 damage per attack. So 65+65+65 in a 3-hit combo which can supposedly kill an Assault if all 3 melee attacks hit their target.As for the damage, Serrated Blade's damage is a tiny-bit less than the chainsword, but the number of swings-to-kill is roughly the same as the Chainsword.
Oh and apparently the Combat Knife has the fastest attack speed of all the CC weapons.
#41
So while it can still kill an Assault theoretically, it has moderately less damage than the Chainsword, as well as less reach and a faster attack speed.
Still sold on the Chainsword being a simple cosmetic upgrade/irrelevant balance niggle, Jaimas? Given how in-depth you get on other issues, it's quite amusing to see you handwave away the details here.
You mean the Combat Knife or the Knife with Serrated Blades? So you know, I'm not sure about how much faster the Knife's attack speed is compared to the Chainsword's. Please keep in mind that when I was discussing this with Coldplay, those were numbers he could recall, so they might be off.So while it can still kill an Assault theoretically, it has moderately less damage than the Chainsword, as well as less reach and a faster attack speed.
However, this still shows that an unperked Combat Knife is significantly weaker than a Chainsword. A Tactical sans Serrated Blades would need to Stun plus inflict a 3-hit combo, and either dodge roll and finish off with gunfire or attempt another combo to beat an Assault. Even with Serrated Blades, you're still dealing out less damage in comparison and if you miss a hit...
#43
Apologies, I was talking about when buffed with Serrated.
And yes, a vanilla Combat Knife is indeed significantly weaker, going by those numbers. But again, the Combat Knife's existence in itself is a bonus that the other classes lack (the Devastator's lolstomp aside - as we've all agreed previously that that needs attention).
No worriesApologies, I was talking about when buffed with Serrated.
See, I keep getting different numbers, and this might explain the confusion. The original GameFAQs tests reported that the Combat Knife was 70-70-70 with Serrated, so forgive me if my numbers were actually off. There's been no official report on what they are, and I appreciate Mirage giving us the data here.
I'm a bit surprised that the unperked knife was only 45, though! I thought it'd be 50, at least.
Explains a lot doesn't it
Glad to help out btw
Sadly, this still leaves us with a question on what to do RE: Tac Melee.
I thought the answer was obvious. Make serrated perk a chainsword giving perk, make it so Tac shoulder slam de-set ups devastators. Done. Or are we still on the "chainsword on tacs makes them super imba what's a melta" fantasy?
I'd even support making the current serrated knife default.
Last edited by konfeta; 19th Nov 11 at 9:03 PM.
I'm cool with that decision. Let's put it to a vote.
#50
I guess there's no point even bothering to debate if you stop arguing with someone, and then turn up days later and mock their point of view as a "fantasy".
Toodles, and good luck getting your changes implemented. Should be fun to see Tacticals rape face even more than they already do so.
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