These two ought to be mutually exclusive. This combination effectively makes Devs / Havocs nearly unassailable, especially when they're equipped with the right weapons (Las / Plasma).
By themselves, they seem to be pretty well balanced.
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These two ought to be mutually exclusive. This combination effectively makes Devs / Havocs nearly unassailable, especially when they're equipped with the right weapons (Las / Plasma).
By themselves, they seem to be pretty well balanced.
I don't have much of a problem with Iron Halo/Feel No Pain, honestly. The problem with this combo is how Devastators are so deadly on the move. Heavy Bolters get a setup perk that almost makes them run 'n gun, while Plasma Cannons can derp around with improved Plasma Charge, stop, blow up the world, repeat; and lastly, Lascannons can run around firing at the center of their screen without using a scope. Make Devastator weapons more static and this will fix the exploiting of this combo.
I agree with this point as I remember a time when I ran up behind a HB Devastator firing in a direction and slashed him five times with my power sword. He still turned around and shot me to bits while I was at full health. I was catonic for five minutes (no I wasn't), and that...really shouldn't of happened.
They are fine. Counter with Killing Blow.
If the only counter is a single weapon for a single class and a perk that has to be earned for it, I don't think that's quite fine.They are fine. Counter with Killing Blow.
That is the faceroll "I don't know how to play Assault" counter.
You have plenty of other options:
1. Plasma Pistol
2. Grenades
3. Two chained Death From Above hits
4. Furious Charge
5. Lascannon
6. Stalker Bolter
Just don't act surprised that a Devastator who spent two perks specifically on durability perks is actually durable. Devastators that combo Iron Halo with a weapon perk are far more dangerous IMO.
Alternatively, maybe people don't like to play the assault kit for whatever reason so KB isn't an option for them. You can't expect people to play the way that you do and hold them to the same standards. Also, that and those other options you listed require perk synergies that lowbies just aren't going to have available to them.
Just because he spent two perks on durability upgrades doesn't mean their synergy isn't wildly imbalanced. You're using the same argument people used when spamming Fire Prisms back in DoW1:Vanilla or the Necron Walk of Doom in Dark Crusade. Or the LoLresurrection Orb. "It's part of the game. He invested resources to purchase that resurrection orb. Deal with it!" they would say. So it goes with anything that someone is directly benefiting from; they don't want it changed.
Originally Posted by Verikez - Best Haiku. Ever.
This isn't a game of symmetrical balance. Don't expect every option to be equally viable against every option. If you don't like to use ideal counters against specific combinations, don't ask for that specific combination to be nerfed. There are a few excessively powerful combinations that have no counter-play except mirroring them, and this is far from being one them.
Furious Charge and Grenades are available at level 1. Stalker Bolter comes by level 4. Lascannon by 10. You have most of these tools after about 10-20 games total. The perk/weapon combinations simply make the process of killing the FNP/IH combo easier and faster, but they are not required for it. In practice, Feel No Pain + Iron Halo do not prevent grenade usage from being a counter, it mostly prevents frag grenades from being "imma charge in front, get shot, but still kill the devastator" weapons.
I don't use the FNP/Iron Halo combination because I view it as weak and because I have never seen Devastators using it significantly impact the game. It is purely a point holding load out. Even Plasma Cannon users lose out on not having the Heatsink perk.So it goes with anything that someone is directly benefiting from; they don't want it changed.
Thank you, that's a better list. However, even with the requirement that the two perks should feel good on the Devastator, I still find the fact I ran up to them from behind and swung continuously with a weapon that is absolutely useless outside it's maximum and short range and was unable to kill with an ambush when I cannot see any other weapons having a right to do as well with an ambush (outside of Melta guns) as them to feel very, very wrong. The combination should counter it, sure, but I don't think it should counter it that freakin' hard.That is the faceroll "I don't know how to play Assault" counter.
You have plenty of other options:
1. Plasma Pistol
2. Grenades
3. Two chained Death From Above hits
4. Furious Charge
5. Lascannon
6. Stalker Bolter
Just don't act surprised that a Devastator who spent two perks specifically on durability perks is actually durable. Devastators that combo Iron Halo with a weapon perk are far more dangerous IMO.
But it should. The counter is not absolute, it merely negates the basic strategy of "land, chain 4 hits, fly away." Even if you jump a Devastator that you were not aware was holding that perk combination, you still have the option to stop hitting and jump again if you notice his shield is dropping too slowly.
This is the biggest mistake ASM players make - they don't know when to stop attacking. You can still kill the devastator if you jump away. You have a pistol, you have grenades, you have the option to ground pound again. If the devastator is in an open spot, you even have the option to do a dodge to the side and shoulder slam in one continuous motion.
So as a Tactical with a Stalker Bolter and the burst fire perk, I can successfully take on a Dev with FNP and Iron Halo. Right? Not if he has a Lascannon (or even a Plasma Cannon), because he stands a very good chance of killing me before I can get close to doing health damage on him. I fire and only make a dent in his armour and if I'm lucky possibly getting close to stripping it. Then he fires, my armour is stripped and take health damage and am forced to take cover and heal. If he gets a headshot, I'm dead.
Against an observant Dev with both FNP and IH, a solitary Tac Sniper has a very hard time competing. Plasma would be more suitable, if there wasn't so much scatter at long range.
#12
Solution:
Make traditional high armour penetration weaponry do much more shield damage and much less health damage. The list of weapons this would include would be: Melta, Plasma (all varieties), Lascannon, Power Axe, Thunder Hammer. Twiddle the numbers so that against a non Iron Halo dev, it takes about the same amount of shots/hits to kill someone. The flipside however, is that against IH devs, you'd drop their shields to get at that juicy healthpool much quicker. The tradeoff being that in all instances, you pretty much have to be in their face to do it (with the exception of plasma weaponry).
Additional: Make the weapons listed above ignore Feel No Pain when doing health damage. That means your FNP is no longer a default choice, since half the weapons in the game will treat your healthpool as it's actual value, rather than the inflated value that FNP turns it into.
What? Why do it that way?
Dev's sacrifice zero damage potential for either of those perks. There are barely any perks in the game that give you the ability to do more damage per shot. Many of them just give you more chances to do damage (via more ammunition/faster reloads or whatever). This is why getting up close to HB/PC devs in most cases is total suicide. They're twice as hard to kill as you are, and they output twice as much damage. The weapons and units designed to kill them cannot feasibly do it before they get wrecked, and this needs to be resolved.
Double perking the above perks should give you survivability advantages, but not against weapons that sacrifice range or accuracy to kill them. By doing it this way, you make the Axe/Hammer useful for Dev hunting, but they sacrifice their speed at killing non-dev's a little. You make the short range weapons useful for dev hunting, but if people are running short range weapons they can't deal with mid/long range threats (plasma weaponry excluded).
The idea with the balance should be that you can equip weapons to hunt devs, but you sacrifice something to do it (like say, your ability to kill at long range, or your ability to kill at very close range). You should be able to equip weapons to hunt tac marines, but again, there should be a sacrifice in that you can't kill dev's effectively any more, or you can't kill ASM's as easily.
There's really no reason not to play a dev right now, because the combination of those 2 perks gives you such a huge window for error, and because you do crazy damage to people without those perks anyway. The only reason everyone isn't busy devestatoring it up is because people just enjoy playing different classes. A co-ordinated team of dev's vs a co-ordinated team of mixed classes should not lose. 8 people with twice as many HP as their opponents means they have to dedicate twice as many people to killing each one member of your team than they should. You can't compete with the survivability and damage of 16 people (effectively) vs the survivability and damage of 8-12 (since obviously the mixed class team would have their own dev's). With the dev team covering eachother properly, you can't kill one before one of his team mates ends you, you can't grab objectives because you'll get mowed down, it doesn't matter if you have the manouverability of an ASM because as soon as you land to try and kill a dev you're in one place and ripe for filling full of bullets.
FNP/Iron Halo are certainly a large part of this problem.
This already happens. Plasmaguns do very little health damage relative to shield damage. If you reduce it any more they will hardly hurt health at all.The idea with the balance should be that you can equip weapons to hunt devs, but you sacrifice something to do it (like say, your ability to kill at long range, or your ability to kill at very close range). You should be able to equip weapons to hunt tac marines, but again, there should be a sacrifice in that you can't kill dev's effectively any more, or you can't kill ASM's as easily.
I'd just reduce the devastators shields a bit. Problem solved.
So let me get this straight... A perked out devastator can headshot you from as far away as he can see and if it doesn't kill you outright because his aim is off, he can finish you off with a second quick shot long before the ASM (or Tac for that matter) has covered even a fraction of the distance to even be a threat? Even then, perks aren't necessary to accomplish the same task at the ranges that devastators are supremely effect at (I'll come back to this in a moment). I don't think I've ever seen you voice any concern over this being a problem.it merely negates the basic strategy of land, chain 4 hits, fly away
And dodging to the side while being facerolled by heavybotler or plasma fire? Shoulder slam? Please! Even on a solid hit, there's time enough during the end of the animation loop alone to ensure the ASM is dead as a doorknob for his troubles.
But as soon as there's a discussion involving a crafty ASM sneaking into range, jumping in and chaining 4 hits ftw, suddenly there's a problem; the devastator is hard done by and should have his own set of hard counters to deal with that cheaky ASM (stomp or health perks that make devs better at tanking than Tacs - beyond all logic). Tell me if I'm wrong but that's definitely the impression I'm left with whenever this gets discussed.
The fact is that jump jets are the ASM's primary offensive tool. Neither pistol will cut it in a standoff gunfight with anybody and ASM combat roll/dodge/thrust/whever isn't nearly as effective at avoiding incoming fire as the Tac marine's. And you only get two jumps max before the jump jets are burnt out (before air cooled jets, a very long way off for lowbie ASMs to acquire). Meanwhile two standard grenades won't finish a FNP/IH dev, even when combined with a charged plasma shot. I've tried. Even if they are, and the target would have to be dead center in the blast radius to be so. In any case, they are pretty much a one use deal since grenade ammo drops aren't very plentiful (thank god for that or FotA/MC nades would be orders of magnitude worse) and certainly of no use if another dev rounds the corner before additional stores can be picked up. Which leaves the ASM with nothing left but jumping and chaining hits.
And you want to discourage that?
So pretty much in the same breath, you acknowledge that devastators should reign supreme vs. anyone foolish enough to do combat with them on their own terms but devs shouldn't pay just as dearly for tangling with an ASM on their terms in melee? He should have perks that save his fat butt? A ranged specialist losing smartly to a melee specialist is somehow imbalanced?"imma charge in front, get shot, but still kill the devastator"
Jumping and chaining 4 hits is the foremost strategy any ASM should be using. I don't know how many times I've seen it repeated on these forums that the basic kits of other classes ought to be enough to be competitive against even players with top tier perks. Well if that's true than this is it for the ASM in theory: jump in and start chaining hits. It's their most basic tool. Right?
If we're going to set this game up in such a manner that it discourages ASMs from doing what they were designed to do, we might as well remove the class altogether because they just aren't much good at anything else.
[Edit] Apok has some pretty good suggestions. I'm in favor of adjusting the perks to move the kits away from generalist powerhouses to more specialized roles appropriate to their class.
Last edited by Pseudonymn; 9th Oct 11 at 11:54 AM.
I've played quite a few games on Waste Management, Shattered Bridge and Manufactorium where you'll have an HB and a PC charging the opposite point on the map together at game start and through the rest of the game. Double perked with IH and FNP or even just IH, these Dev rushes are nearly unbeatable unless you're prepared for it with a charged PC of your own, lobbing charged shots at the assumed point of attack and hopefully catching the team as they're coming around the corner...and even that's no guarantee of success.With the dev team covering eacho ther properly, you can't kill one before one of his team mates ends you, you can't grab objectives because you'll get mowed down, it doesn't matter if you have the manouverability of an ASM because as soon as you land to try and kill a dev you're in one place and ripe for filling full of bullets.
Aside from making IH and FNP mutually exclusive, what I'd love to see is some consistency with regard to classes. Make all classes use the same HP and armour levels and regen rates. So what can be used as a base? Tacticals would be a good start, at least for me.I'd just reduce the devastators shields a bit. Problem solved.
And great post there Ap0k. Thanks for contributing to this discussion
Why should they be the same? You cannot make a class as immobile as the devastator have the same armor as an assault marine. You'd need to buff the shit out of the devastator's weapons to the point that the classes would be effectively the same.
Last edited by Demonic Spoon; 9th Oct 11 at 1:39 PM.
#17
Dev's aren't immobile.
Stop thinking they are.
It takes no time to setup a HB. You can move and fire a PC/LC, and suffer negligably for doing so.
Are they slightly slower than the rest of the classes? Yes, but in this game, it doesn't really matter. They can swap to pistol and move at the same speed as an ASM, and just switch to the heavy weapon when they need to kill something, which takes practically no time at all, and certainly no time worth considering significant. With IH/FNP they way they are, it doesn't matter that they can't get around as quickly, since they can use the perks to cushion the damage they take from being jumped, use that extra shield/hp to setup, and the proceed to fill you full of pain before you can finish them off.
They are not immobile in any sense, and certainly not in any practical sense.
Devs are slower than tacs and don't get the roll. In the land of grenades which tacs are only barely able to get away from, that's a big deal.
The only time the HB setup time is anywhere close to "no time" is with the perk.
Wait, what? Nerfing devastator's already fat armor would require a nerf to their weapons too? The ASM is already squared off against the dev's weapons at his current armor levels. How does a devastator armor nerf change that matchup?
I don't know what you're talking about. Read my post again, that's not what I said. Ignore the edit that was uh...that was totally just a spelling fix <_<
I think that's part of the problem with Dev's really. To an extent they offer BETTER mobile fire power than Tacticals, which actually runs counter to established fluff. The combination of IH and FNP serves to exacerbate this problem. As a PC Dev with IH and FNP, I can pop out while lobbing balls of armour killing death and then slide back into cover, still firing, and taking negligible damage in the process. Rinse and repeat. Even better, try charging a control point while firing on the move and weaving in and out of cover. I've gotten 3x - 4x killstreaks and even multikills this way, all while moving. I usually take down 1-2 players and injure 2 more before someone can finally stop me...and I usually have team mates behind me.It takes no time to setup a HB. You can move and fire a PC/LC, and suffer negligably for doing so.
In fluff, Devastators and Havocs are tasked with finding suitable vantage points from which they set up and provide heavy fire support for friendly forces and seldom move from. As a rule, their weapons can't and won't be fired while moving due to the need to set up properly to obtain optimum effect from said weapons due to limited ammo supplies and inherent design. THAT is their balance in TT. They can dispense massive firepower but to do so, they can't move and that leaves them open to counter fire.
I will have to disagree very strongly. A coordinated team of mixed classes has on-field respawn and incredibly fast transitioning between points. It also holds a very great advantage in terms of flashbang use, as well as access to Master Crafted + Favored of the Armory which makes a mockery of Iron Halo + Feel No Pain.A co-ordinated team of dev's vs a co-ordinated team of mixed classes should not lose.
This game has enough cover to allow you to close in on a Devastator in almost any position without giving him any opportunity to kill you short of perfect Lascannon use. It is trivial to get close to one. So, yes, I expect Devastators to reign supreme at their intended job and be difficult to take out even if you close in on them. There is nothing crafty about an ASM that closes in on a Devastator. It is the norm. I say this because I play Assault far more than any other class.I don't think I've ever seen you voice any concern over this being a problem.
Plasma Pistol + 2 Grenades will kill this perk combination. You are missing grenades and you are relying on the charged shot (which is a mistake for anything except long range sniping or DFA combos). Furthermore, the Pistol won't win in a face to face situation, but it will win in an ambush situation. You can strip a Devastator's armor in about a second of shooting.
The jump based shoulder slam has a short enough animation lock to be useful, and it does tremendous damage.
Jump Jet cooldown is short enough - don't initiate attack on your second jump and you will have more than enough to kill a Devastator.
So, yes, I want to discourage "Jump in and melee ftw." It is easy enough to accomplish given the generous map design (except maybe on Habitat, which is a sniper's wet dream).
Yes, and this tool should have an actual skill curve with available counter-play for enemies. It is already competitive. But it should not be so efficient that it, by itself, is enough to literally kill everything you get into your melee range. It is too easy to do for that. The IH/FNP combination forces you to utilize a more advanced tactic or a specific perk combination to counter. And I see nothing wrong with that concept.Jumping and chaining 4 hits is the foremost strategy any ASM should be using. I don't know how many times I've seen it repeated on these forums that the basic kits of other classes ought to be enough to be competitive against even players with top tier perks. Well if that's true than this is it for the ASM in theory: jump in and start chaining hits. It's their most basic tool. Right?
A true point, but I still feel that I ran up to Devastator with a Heavy Bolter from behind and hit him five times (which takes quite a while) and still turned around to shoot me to shreds goes from "counters a basic strategy forcing you to adapt" to "have Killing Blow or never expect to kill them with melee weapons".Yes, and this tool should have an actual skill curve with available counter-play for enemies. It is already competitive. But it should not be so efficient that it, by itself, is enough to literally kill everything you get into your melee range. It is too easy to do for that. The IH/FNP combination forces you to utilize a more advanced tactic or a specific perk combination to counter. And I see nothing wrong with that concept.
Consider that an unperked devastator takes 4 hits to kill. This would make for a spectacularly shitty perk combination if it raised the "to kill" barrier to 5 hits. And, again, start using a load out with a Plasma Pistol. It shreds shields extremely fast and it can kill an Iron Halo devastator from full clip. An efficient method for killing devastators, for example, is to quietly land behind them, start running at them with the PP blazing and finishing off with a Furious Charge. If you feel this means you spending too much time running, PP + DFA is a similar result, albeit harder to pull off.
I'll honestly have to consider testing with someone since I'm not quite sure what the "to kill" barrier against a Devastator with IH/FNP really is - I just know 5 hits with a chainsword was not enough. I cannot recall when I popped their shields.Consider that an unperked devastator takes 4 hits to kill. This would make for a spectacularly shitty perk combination if it raised the "to kill" barrier to 5 hits. And, again, start using a load out with a Plasma Pistol. It shreds shields extremely fast and it can kill an Iron Halo devastator from full clip. An efficient method for killing devastators, for example, is to quietly land behind them, start running at them with the PP blazing and finishing off with a Furious Charge. If you feel this means you spending too much time running, PP + DFA is a similar result, albeit harder to pull off.
If you're attacking a Dev head on, you should lose. So, I'm not surprised that Lascannon beats Stalker. It's a fucking LASCANNON vs a somewhat-buffed bolter with a scope.
The trick is to flank them. An entrenched HB turns very slowly and when they're not entrenched, their RoF is cut by ~2/3. A PC doesn't hit nearly as hard when they don't have their charge up. A LC has an incredibly small firing arc and low rate of fire.
If the Dev is specced for durability, and you attack them from the front, of course you should lose. So, flank them, or ignore them. The only time you can't do either of those is when they're entrenched in a hallway overlooking a capture point you need. In those cases, you have to use indirect fire (grenades or PC artillery).
Fac et Spera
Ah, but what's really being discussed is the effect on balance and gameplay that a Dev buffed with IH and FNP has. From my point of view - which is likely shared by at least a few other players - a Dev with both these perks is extraordinarily difficult to assail. In short, a Dev with both IH and FNP is simply TOO durable.
I understand that. However, the moment they realize they're being fired on they home in on you and can kill you before you can. Their buffed shields and hp allows them to soak the shots you're dishing out long enough to allow them to isolate and dispatch you.The trick is to flank them.
#28
I have less problems with Lascannon and Plasma Cannon Devs in that regard.
I have huge problems with HB Devs in that regard. With Expertise, they are nigh-unkillable at close-quarters.
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
I don't think you've addressed the point of my agurment, Konfeta.
First of all, before I say anything, let's leave the whole ambush thing out of this for a second because, and you have to admit, it's available to any and all classes. It's not uniquely part of the ASM's bag of tricks and therefore can't be meaningfully factored into the balance equation since it's effect on each class (being a tactic available to all) is a net zero in value. I really don't think you've adequately addressed that by falling back on ambushes and the dubious value of cover, especially since ASM spend a good chunk of time in the air getting from one place to the next.
Let's confine to discussion about balance to within the sphere of combat where both combatants know of each other's presence and are actively trying to kill one another.
On the one hand, you have ASM that are extremely easy to kill at long and medium ranges given that they have no viable answer to those attacks except run and hide. Even then if you're attacker is perusing you (a task for which Tacs are better suited, perhaps), there are not many places to run and hide to. For a game that was never designed to make much use of cover (hello, no crouching, no leaning... penetrable materials?), I think you are overstating the abundance and value of said cover.
You say PP+Grenades will kill a FNP/IH dev and I might just be missing them. Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe the devs are also sidestepping out of the blast radius. Whatever. This is dangerously close to ad hominem. In any case, it's a consumable, one-use deal. ASM are not loaded down with grenades and last I checked there's really not an abundant supply of grenade ammo laying about for the taking. It's a highly consumable, tertiary weapon choice and an inadequate counterbalance - especially given that devs possess the same exact tools at their disposal (net zero to balance for or against either class). We can safely disregard grenades as a contributing factor in balance discussions between these two classes.
Devs on the other hand are masters of ranged death & destruction AND have viable answers to anyone who tries to melee them. Unlike the ASM, assisted by their perks, devs can stick with and safely rely upon their primary weapon to bail them out of virtually any situation they come across. You say you want to discourage DFA+4xWhacks ftw in ASM, asserting their primary weapon should not be their most efficient means of attack. Yet you do not temper your argument with any suggestion that a Dev's weapon should not be equally penalized for its efficiency at what it does.
You're not seriously suggesting that a heavybolter has a steep skill curve to it, are you? Honestly. It's arguably more difficult to track a target in the fast pace of CQC and melee than it is from medium to long range.Yes, and this tool should have an actual skill curve with available counter-play for enemies
When was the last time you saw the Dev whip out his pistol for any reason other than to run someplace faster? Answer that question and your position might be a little more credible.
My point then is simply this: The overlap in Dev's utility between ranged and melee combat exceeds that which is demonstrated by ASM's utility in the same areas.
Once again, as an aside, this whole discussion smacks of the old DoW1 days when people were complaining about things like Eldar Fire Prism spam and Necron Walk of Doom. There was a whole camp of people who were adamant in their insistence that there were viable counters to those strategies. Yes, maybe there were. MAYBE. But the amount of effort required to actually pull off those counters; the sheer amount of micro needed as opposed to the efficiency and ease by which (ab)users of those strategies were able to deploy them (and literally forget about them in the case of the Necron WoD) is what was most important.
And it is here that I draw a parallel to what you are suggesting the ASM kit should be required to do once within CQC and melee range as opposed to what the Dev kit is required to do in order to be a threat both outside of that range and effectively counter the ASM threat within that range.
I put it to you that perks that make the Devastator resistant to melee combat run contrary to their intended function on the battlefield and, against all logic, mute the effectiveness of their natural counter, the ASM.
Oh I agree completely. The vast bulk of my kills as an HB Dev has been against Assaults and I typically enjoy a 3 or even 4 to 1 kill ratio. As an HB dev, I'm typically perked with either IH + Expertise or IH + FNP. With the later, few Assaults are capable of attacking me and prevailing, unless they grenade me first and have a Thunderhammer with Killing Blow or a buff to Ground Pound. Trust me, I've had my fair share of rage directed at me by other players for using a "bullshit build".I have huge problems with HB Devs in that regard. With Expertise, they are nigh-unkillable at close-quarters.
Definitely agree with the need for standarized Stats. Tacticals dying to one frag grenade is a fairly common occurence.
#32
I'm with pseudonym on this.
saying that landing, chaining four hits then jumping away is easy in practice is just wrong. devs not using HB will sidestep like crazy, and frequently interrupt you while you're trying to do your stuff. actually landing those hits is also a matter in and of itself. often targets will sidestep and move out of range, especially when using the hammer.
I mean, just look at what people are actually doing as ASM. when I'm playing as a tac, I'm hard pressed to not laugh my ass off at all these ASM hopping in a circle performing some kind of rain dance while their targets are laying nice little explosive gifts of love on their feet, or pelting them to death. while I'm certainly not a god at this game, I don't think I'll ever die to a non-hammerine unless they surprise me or they anticipate my move. I can outmaneuver them with combat rolls, all the while shooting their face.
conserving your jump pack, picking routes of attack, landing hits, keeping track of grenades and your own armor, arguably all these things are something that other classes either don't worry about at all, or to a lesser extent.
I'm somewhat fine with devs having an ability to counter ASM in CC if it actually takes skill beyond taking some perks, maybe dropping a grenade at your own feet and holding down mouse 1.
but it doesn't.
<3
Alright, rather than saying learn to play for the nth time, I will ask something else instead.I'm somewhat fine with devs having an ability to counter ASM in CC if it actually takes skill beyond taking some perks, maybe dropping a grenade at your own feet and holding down mouse 1.
What exactly do you envision for this "skilled counter play?" The things you describe being done by Devastators/Tacs will slaughter bad ASM regardless of which perks they take. If an ASM can't land a hit chain, nerfing IH/FNP is going to do an impressive amount of nothing to help that ASM.
#34
My preferred build for ASM with chainsword is with blind grenades: sometimes the only chance you have against some guys is when they're completely blind.
#35
konfeta, I don't actually envision anything for it. I'm not suggesting any way this would work, or that this would be good, or that it wouldn't make tacs even more obsolete. I was just trying to show that I at least, am fine with dieing if I feel I've been outplayed. But thats not the way I often feel at all.
what you quoted was simply a footnote to my general point of "devs with those perks are imba", and "ASMin ain't easy".
As has been said before, of course they are counters to devs, with any class. however, if it takes a disproportionate amount of skill, or too many resources (upwards of 3-4 unperked grenades), then yes, I consider this to be imba. killing HB or PC devs with these perks should NOT be this hard as a tac or ASM. especially since devs don't really sacrifice too much in the way of firepower when choosing these perks.
My point is that it doesn't. There are two basic relationships - Devastator will kill a substandard ASM at range in a second, an ASM will kill a substandard Devastator at melee in a single pound + swings. The ASM can readily counter the Devastator's range advantage by ambushing and, in general, using the jetpack to approach, the Devastator can readily counter ASM's melee advantage by a well timed stomp, kick, or dodging. Once these basic mechanical rules are are learned by both parties, the fight comes down tactics and mind games. A Devastator can still overcome a crafty's ASM approach by superior shooting skill or heightened awareness of his surroundings. An ASM can overcome a Devastator's array of stuns and dodge step with use of his gun, jetpack maneuvers, and grenades. Dodge step, grenades, ground pound timing/positioning, the choice of shooting/stomping/melee/etc. are dances of skill that both parties need to engage in for the fight not to be a curb stomp on either side.
ASM does not take proportionally more skill to succeed. ASM play is simply more punishing of mistakes because you are ultimately attempting to engage in melee combat - your HP/Shield is essentially ammunition in a way that it isn't for other classes. Mechanically, landing ground pounds and swing chains isn't particularly harder than accurate shooting. The requirement for superior pathfinding skills is justified because other classes don't gain the advantage of Jetpack's mobility.
The thread's perk combo does not fundamentally alter these mind game relationships. It changes exactly two things - the Devastator can no longer be killed by just the two frag grenades, the Devastator now can physically survive the basic ground pound + swing combo even it if catches him completely by surprise. The rest of the counter-plays are largely unaffected in terms of their outcome. Plasma Pistol + Ground Pound is still lethal. Pistol + Grenades still kills the Devastator. Repeated ground pounds and use of Furious Charge is still a very high threat for the Devastator. This perk combo changes minimal required skill for the act of killing a Devastator by an Assault, but it does not significantly alter the higher level play requirements.
#37
thats the problem. he doesn't if the dev has these perks, because he will die if remaining committed to the melee. to survive, the ASM will have to disengage to avoid being blasted in the face, jump away and pelt with the pistol (which will kill you unless the dev is locked in a stomp animation), or try to outmaneuver the dev to get another groundpound plus a few swings in, which means a lot longer time spent trying to kill the devestator. this wouldn't matter as much in a vacuum, but having the ASM tied up in this way leads to the ASM more likely to die when reinforcements come. true, the same applies to allied reinforcements for the ASM, but in my experience devs are more often supported than ASM, as they follow different pathways which means their support cannot keep up unless airborne as well.an ASM will kill a substandard Devastator at melee in a single pound + swings
I do agree with your point that generally, ASM does not take more skill to succeed. However, my point was that in the particular situation of ASM vs IH/FNP dev, countering the dev takes more skill, time and expenditure of resources. which again, is fine so long as its not too much time, resources and skill. But imo it does.
It's a problem exactly once per Devastator. Once you know the Devastator has that perk combo, you adjust your approaching tactic so that you do not have to re-engage. My response to these Devastators as Assault is to simply lead in with gunfire, grenades, or pick a load out that has greater damage output than what I regularly use. Why do Assault players have this expectation that any load out they use should be equally effective with every tactic against all possible targets?thats the problem. he doesn't if the dev has these perks, because he will die if remaining committed to the melee.
The converse situation is that a skilled Assault can effectively tie up a good portion of the enemy entire team for a 10+ seconds in ways that other classes cannot. You don't *need* to kill off a Devastator to stop him from contributing. You simply need to him to start paying attention to you. And, regardless, let me list things that effectively kill even this Devastator perk combo:this wouldn't matter as much in a vacuum, but having the ASM tied up in this way leads to the ASM more likely to die when reinforcements come.
1. Hammer + Killing Blow essentially turns the guy into an unperked Devastator.
2. Plasma Pistol can literally strip a Devastator's shields on a flying approach before he can react.
3. Death From Above and/or Furious Charge boost your ambushing strike damage.
4. Grenades don't kill, but they still translate into an easy kill when combined with any regular ASM tactic.
All of these things can be integrated into a single approaching motion, resulting in a marginal increase in time required to kill the problem Devastator in question. If a Devastator is sufficiently entrenched in a good spot and covered by allies, it stops being an IH/FNP problem and starts being a teamwork problem. I've seen these hypothetical invincible Devastators ruining games. It's almost always a group of 2-3 Devastators covering each other and covered by snipers. If we are seriously holding a notion that an Assault should be able to just jump into that and kill a Devastator with minimal effort, we have a serious disparity in expectations.
#39
It's more the dichotomy between the skill required for a Devastator (mainly HB/Lascannon here, the PC ain't so hot at point-blank for the user) to faceplant an attacking ASM into the ground, and the skill required by the ASM to kill said Devastator. Miss with your grenades? Screwed. Took a Bolt Pistol to kill fleeing foes? Screwed. Missed your Death From Above/regular dive-bomb by a metre? Screwed.
All the Devastator has to do is hold position and click Mouse1. If you make good on your landing, then the Devastator actually has to bother countering (dodge, stomp, etc).
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