I feel that Perks that buff weapons ought to be mutually exclusive so that you can't take 2 perks for the same weapon. This would help keep the playing field fair and help encourage more distinctive loadouts.
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I feel that Perks that buff weapons ought to be mutually exclusive so that you can't take 2 perks for the same weapon. This would help keep the playing field fair and help encourage more distinctive loadouts.
Um. Specific examples?
The only weapon perk combination I see on regular basis is for Bolter and... that's it (and I still see plenty of Kraken + Something else). I personally support the combination for the Stormbolter, but many people disagree. I occasionally see Lascannon double perking, but as far as I am aware, the stability perk doesn't seem to do anything (perhaps it reduces recoil from being hit, but if you are sporting this combination you get slaughtered by other snipers).
Oh come on, be fair now. FotA and MC grenades are becoming the de facto no-brainer perk of choice on many a game these days. If they are not actively being used you can bet people have them queued up in a customization slot somewhere. Or quickfireing lolzcannons of orbital doom. Just about every weapon in the game can be effectively turned into a one-shotting gankshow or very close to that. They ruin the pacing of a good toe-to-toe fight by ending it in mere seconds and reduce the game to hiding around corners waiting in ambush, which cuts to the heart of what the OP is saying, I think. Fire fights tend toward whitewashed and uninteresting quickies.
Originally Posted by Verikez - Best Haiku. Ever.
I put FotA and MC into a separate discussion here as I felt its heavy abuse warranted it.
I've seen substantial use of dual perked Meltas, Bolters, and Storm Bolters, and occasionally Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma Guns. With regard to dual perked Meltas and Storm Bolters, it is almost ridiculously easy to run around and rack up killstreaks - I'd even say that a dual perked SB is possibly one of the single best ranged counters a Tactical has against Assaults. I have endured a fair bit of rage from using this particular combo...but hey, what's not to love about it? Accurate, heavy fire and fast reload + good rolls = dead and pissed off Assault.
Doesn't mean it's right though.
The second Melta/Plasmagun perks increase ammo capacity, i.e. shit tier.
There is also substantial use of single perked Bolters/Stormbolters/Lasccannons/Plasma Cannons.
Not sure what exactly is wrong here, to be honest. Distinctive load outs are present. None of the double weapon perk combos are blatantly overpowered.
You are correct that most of the ammo perks are pretty much worthless. The only two that I do see as actually being helpful are the Stalker Bolter and Melta Ammo Perks
Stalker is good if you are sniping, but I don't think you should be a dedicated sniper on a Tac in the first place - you should always be close enough to a fight to be able to pick up ammo.
Melta you get an ammo refill every kill. It's literally the worst ammo perk in the game. The very nature of the weapon, CQC, ensures that you will die with regularity against competent enemies and will have droves of instantly available ammo when you own.
To be honest, I wouldn't know about the Melta ammo perk as I've pretty much stopped using the Melta Gun with any kind of regularity...
...and for pretty much that reason. With regard to the perk, I'll take your word for itThe very nature of the weapon, CQC, ensures that you will die with regularity against competent enemies
I found that hanging back and picking off threats to other players with a Stalker Bolter does have an appeal, but it's a situational thing and rather map dependent. Still, if I find myself running low on ammo, I just get closer to the action and scrounge ammo as need be. 60 rounds is certainly better than 40 - and it really gives a Tactical "sniper" staying power when used with Burst Fire, due to the amount of ammo that perk consumes.
I disagree with the principle of making them mutually exclusive. That's not wrong in and of itself. You could be right that CERTAIN combo are OP, but then you'd also have to consider the trade offs.
For example, the Bolter. Kraken Bolts raises the anti-armor of the Bolter from 2 to 3. It's anti-health stays at 3. For reference, the Heavy Bolter is 5/5, so Kraken bolts only allow the bolter to be 3/5 the power of the Heavy Bolter. The targeter gets rid of the cone of fire and recoil, which matters a lot more at longer distances. At close range that perk is pretty useless since you wouldn't miss anyway.
So, if you use both perks, you get a weapon that does balance damage consistently at short, medium, and long range (ignoring the fact that it's still harder, even with the targeter, to stay on target at long range). The cost of those 2 perks are the one that shows the HP and armor and helps you see bad guys further away, any buffs to your knife, any buffs to your grenades, any ability to carry 2 guns, any ability to respawn faster or on top of your buddies, any ability to be more durable...
For my playstyle, it works. I don't like weapon-swapping, so I like that this combo makes the bolter good all-round. It does good damage against both kinds of protection and is equally accurate (as accurate as me at least) at all ranges. I can also deal with the costs of not being able to use those other perks okay. But a more aggressive Tac player would hate this combo because they'd really prefer the melta and stronger grenades, and a more defensive Tac would also hate it because they'd prefer the Stalker and the signum link thing.
Another thing to consider is that the two perks each weapon gets are not always complementary or as useful. For example, both of the bolter perks essentially increase it's DPS. But perks that increase mag size have a much smaller impact on DPS because all they do is reduce the amount of time you can't shoot as you reload. In fact, I think most of the weapon perks are not that complimentary.
Fac et Spera
The lascannon perks are useless, frankly. The kick is reduced by a bit, but not enough to make scoring 2 headshots possible without readjustment. The faster reload is just plain stupid. I don't see why they need to be mutually exclusive.
Faster Reload is awesome. You should feel horrible for dissing it.
I fail to see how it is awesome. There's no reason not to reload after 2 or 3 shots. It's very rare that there are so many targets running around that the extra second you gain with faster reloading would result in an extra kill because there's an abundance of cover in most maps.
The only instance in which I thought "gee, I wish this thing reloaded faster" occurred last night when I was dancing around shooting people without a scope, and shot a raptor facing the opposite direction. He didn't move, but I had to reload, and another shot would have killed him, but then I kicked his face in instead.
IN retrospect, I should have pulled out the pistol and shot him to deaht instead.
You either always land headshots or take way fewer shots than you should be taking. The extra second makes all the difference in the world on Habitat sniping. Especially when you have to burn shots taking down Iron Halo snipers.
A bigger issue is that so many of the weapon perks are goddamned useless. To writ:
Vengeance Launcher: Both perks are useless. One gives it 2 more bomblets placable, making it slightly more efficient, but the weapon itself still sucks and takes way too long to kill anything, whereas the second one gives you more ammo. Uhm.... Yay?
Plasma Gun: It's better rapid-fired, and neither perk is hugely useful.
Meltagun: When's the last time you've seen anyone use this perk? Seriously?
Plasma Pistol: Wow, more ammo. Just what I always wanted.
Bolt Pistol: Hope you weren't expecting anything but more ammo, because JACKPOT!
Plasma Cannon: Honestly, another fucking ammo perk?
You notice a pattern here? Most of these weapons have utterly useless perks attached. More than that, many of these weapons have completely impossible requirements to fulfill to unlock them - the Vengeance Launcher, for example, requires dozens of multikills. These perks need to be completely re-thought and re-evaluated, because as things stand, none of them will ever be taken by someone with half a brain cell.
#15
Completely impossible requirements unless you unlock them in Exterminatus where killing several Orks at once suddenly becomes a possibility.
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
#16
I have a nasty feeling the challenges won't necessarily apply to exterminatus, or will be disabled. It's not been confirmed that they will. Not only that, but the experience rewards are also disproporitionate - 250 kills is 15000 exp, but the killstreaks/multikills which take twice as long are half the exp boost? so far the only two final ones I've gotten legit are Stalker bolter and lascannon (I haven't got max kills with lascannon yet). They are too situationally or skill dependant.
EDIT: Sorry, missing the point agian.
Jamias's complaint is valid. Ammunition is rarely scarce, and the currrent design of some of the perks is very interesting. The only gun which has truely must have weapon buffs is the bolter, because both directly contribute to its damage output/potential.
To call one bluff, the meltagun recharge perk is a lifesaver in a meltagun fight. You'll win every time.
As for tacticals in general, a good deal of the green perks are useless. It's no wonder people run with 4xMastercrafted nades, because the others are a bit rubbish. I've come around to thinking Larramans is actually awesome (once you start recharging, your HP is maxed fast for you to get back into the fight).
The plasma gun charged shot in particular is not very good. If it was an instant kill on hit, or did that bit more damage, then it would be a very fearsome weapon and would find a use quickly in regular play (i was going to say competitive, lawl). It doesn't need splash - it is meant to be an accurate deathdealer.
Anyway, my point is that both the perks AND weapons need rebalancing - there is, currently, no reason to stop people taking two weapon perks. But perks that buff a given weapon definately need improvement.
Also, i'm pretty sure the bolt pistol and plasma pistol have perks which improve their firing capacity - I'm sure the bolt pistol has more shots per clip with the perk (which I'd love to USE ON A CLASS OTHER THAN ASSAULT MARINE FFS) and the plasma pistol has improved cooldown - but I might be wrong on the plasma pistol.
Last edited by Hirmetrium; 18th Oct 11 at 3:50 AM.
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Acutally Jaimas the plasma cannon perk increases the rate at which the charge shot charges, making it significantly more powerful. It's one of the few secondary perks worth jumping through the hoops to get.
#18
If you can gain MP progression in Exterminatus, Hirm, then unlocking weapon challenges seems logical as well. It has been confirmed that you can level up in Exterminatus.
Bolt Pistol gets +6 rounds per clip (but not more ammo), Plasma Pistol gets about second off it's cooldown. The Bolt Pistol perk is actually kinda bad because the gun already has the fastest reload in the game. You spend about the same time waiting for the reticule to re-center anyway. Plasma Pistol cooldown is already very fast, and you don't generally use it to kill unless you are firing at close ranges - when it already kills anything in one easy clip.Also, i'm pretty sure the bolt pistol and plasma pistol have perks which improve their firing capacity - I'm sure the bolt pistol has more shots per clip with the perk (which I'd love to USE ON A CLASS OTHER THAN ASSAULT MARINE FFS) and the plasma pistol has improved cooldown - but I might be wrong on the plasma pistol.
He may be referring to the ammo one? But, yeah, half the reload speed is incredible.To call one bluff, the meltagun recharge perk is a lifesaver in a meltagun fight. You'll win every time.
Buff damage and AOE on Vengeance please, so it can actually do its duty as an area denier.
Plas cannon charger can be useful, but it's simply easier to spam the shots.
And yeah, I was referring to the ammo one. The recharge perk for the Meltagun, like the reload Perk for the Stormbolter, is actually useful.
I've heard a few people commenting on how weak the VL mines are and a couple of friends asked me to help test out the damage: Seems to take about 3 mines to actually kill a marine...and that's with the mines stuck to said marine.Buff damage and AOE on Vengeance please, so it can actually do its duty as an area denier.
You do not want the VL to kill things with 3 non-direct explosions. You really, really don't want that to happen. Consider that it effectively be a Plasma Cannon primary fire, except far more accurate, far faster and less visible projectiles, which you can detonate if you miss to boot. Oh, and no need to reload.
#23
The vengeance launcher at the least should take 2 DIRECT MINES to kill a marine. 3 is far too much. Once that happens, then we can see how good the AOE is - I suspect it will need a small increase too (so it is a much more effective area denial weapon even before weapon perks) but the amount of that increase is what will determine it ends up like a plasma cannon or not.
Vengenace Launcher is effective... If you throw (and hit) hostiles with frag grenade first. Eh. I really trid to make it work. I get some kills here and there, but when I'm out of 'nades I'm a sitting duck. Ammo is not a problem though, there is always plenty lying around from dead allies/foes.
Sticking a nade to hostile ASM arse just before rounds ends looks funny though. Bonus points if others at the end of the round see it too.
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Speaking of weapon perks, am I the only one that thinks that both plasma gun perks are utterly useless? I actually really lime the plasma gun for being a weapon that is pretty good without any perks, making it combine well with weapon versatility.
All ammo perks are useless unless you use a long range weapon, and the faster charge seems pretty pointless to me as well. Anyone else feel the same way?
#26
Faster charge is very fast, and makes for a nasty surprise when somebody things you can't do that much damage. It definitely boosts corner peaking capacity too.
I swear at plasma gun faster charged shot. My kills with it roughly doubled per match once I started using it.
Oh the faster charge is nice. Especially when combod with blind grenades.
Why? It's not hard to stick 2 direct mines. The first mine is a freebie in 99% of the situations. I agree that it needs a buff, but the damage of it as a combat weapon is fine. I would vouch for more creative buffs like improving its actual trap weapon functionality. Damage ramp up depending on how long the mine stuck to a surface? A chain effect where multiple mines in proximity augment each other's damage?The vengeance launcher at the least should take 2 DIRECT MINES to kill a marine.
Personally, I am still in favor of making the effects of its two perks default and giving it two new ones.
The problem with the VL is that its damage drops off stupidly fast. To do any sort of appreciable damage the mines must explode in their face. Given the difficulty of using the weapon it's just not rewarding when you could just pick any other weapon and shoot the guy in the face for the same effect. No AOE makes it useless for area denial. It doesn't help that if you hit them once and scare them away you get nothing because assists are worth nothing.
Last edited by Demonic Spoon; 19th Oct 11 at 11:19 AM.
So, the problem with the VL is that you have to hit enemies with it? So, you guys want faster projectile speed?
No, that's not the problem, that's a symptom. Lobbing projectiles at their face is the only way to do anything with it, but that's an obnoxious and contrived way of trying to do damage when every other gun is as simple as pointing it and hitting M1. It's way easier and it takes just as little time (if not less) to kill.
There's a number of ways you could fix it to make it worth it. The best is probably just boosting the AOE so that standing a few inches from it won't absolve you of almost all damage.
Perhaps we should move the discussion of the VL elsewhere...
Just to reiterate how awesome the plasmagun charge upgrade is, you can fire off 2 shots in span of a second; and if you cool a little between shots, you can fire 3. Two is enough to kill a Tac or Assault Marine even with splash damage. It's like your own mini-plasma cannon!
I do find that the Plasmagun regular fire is pretty terrible, though. Wildly inaccurate with hip fire, loses against other guns in terms of DPS with aim mode because you can't dodge in it. Perhaps its ammo perk should be replaced with one that improves hip-fire accuracy?
Agreed. I like the perk idea - rather similar to the Storm Bolter's which most of us would agree is very useful.I do find that the Plasmagun regular fire is pretty terrible, though. Wildly inaccurate with hip fire, loses against other guns in terms of DPS with aim mode because you can't dodge in it. Perhaps its ammo perk should be replaced with one that improves hip-fire accuracy?
#35
The way I use Plasma gun is with the loadout Improved weapon versatility, tactical readout (yes I'm a noob :P), Stalker bolter, plasma gun. The main idea behind this build is exploiting the versatility. Usually two big hits is enough to either win the fight and force the retreat, or kill them. 'Big hits' include a stalker bolter barrage/HS, plasma gun charge, and grenades. So something like stalker bolter forcing them into cover, grenades in, and charge in with plasma gun charge. Then I usually use either melee or plasma gun standard attack to finish off low health targets (hence why I use tactical readout- it informs me of my realistic chances). The downside is that sometimes plasma gun overheats faster than I'd like, but using this strat I find I get quite a few plasma gun kills.I do find that the Plasmagun regular fire is pretty terrible, though. Wildly inaccurate with hip fire, loses against other guns in terms of DPS with aim mode because you can't dodge in it. Perhaps its ammo perk should be replaced with one that improves hip-fire accuracy?
The two perks for the PC give you more shots before cooling down or faster charge. You wouldn't want to use both but I really like the larger "clip" since 4 shots just won't cut it when you're facing multiple enemies. The ammo perk is part of the Devastator's standard perks, not weapon specific.Plasma Cannon: Honestly, another fucking ammo perk?
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