Handy for sneaky sniping from overhead platforms but surely a vile perk option for ASM all told.
Would you give up Impenetrable, Thrusters or Death From Above for this plus lose the option of the armour-shredding PP?
Can TrueShGrit be saved?
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Handy for sneaky sniping from overhead platforms but surely a vile perk option for ASM all told.
Would you give up Impenetrable, Thrusters or Death From Above for this plus lose the option of the armour-shredding PP?
Can TrueShGrit be saved?
True Grit basically gives an Assault a Bolter and as such grants a burst weapon with better range compared to say a Bolt Pistol. I've only tried out the perk a couple of times so I can't really comment on it, but it does feel like the Bolter has a bit more scatter than the Tactical's. I could be wrong though - so feel free to correct me!
Honestly though, I'd rather stick with my Plasma Pistol, Air Cooled Thrusters, and Impenetrable - but that's my personal preference more than anything else. I'd rather be more mobile, resilient, and have some armour killing ability than have a medium range automatic weapon. A perk that granted a Melta Gun would be a very different story though
On a side note, I'd so take a Flamer as a weapon option for Assaults (and Tacticals) if Flamers existed in this game and they were done right... yes, that was a not-so-subtle hint, Relic
One issue I have with True Grit is that the Bolter isn't exactly a great weapon to begin with. It takes a lot of hits to down someone with, and even with kraken bolts and targetting, it's still outdone DPS-wise by the Stalker and Storm Bolter outside of medium range. Throw in the fact that ASM going with True Grit lose their pistol (WTF), and that the Bolter is actually pretty fail compared to the vanilla bolt pistol (Bolt pistol OHKs with a headshot if the target lacks shields) and plasma pistol (Fires faster, is stronger, has charged shots) - and that's not even factoring in the reduced fire rate and reduced accuracy!
The bigger issue here mostly is that the Bolter itself is kinda a meh weapon when unperked (and is kind of an under-achiever WHEN perked), balanced out by the fact that it's ready to rock whenever and wherever. If you perk it out, it's pretty good if used right, but there's just no reason to ever take it over the Bolt Pistol and Plasma Pistol - it's literally a downgrade.
Here's how I'd fix it:
1. Remove headshot OHK from all bolt pistols. Admittedly this is personal preference since it makes the Bolt Pistol far more powerful than it has any right to be when as a weapon it's already pretty goddamned useful. Feel free to ignore this change.
2. Improve the bolter in general. A slightly better (and not too much!) fire rate for both the tactical version and Assault version would make it a nice improvement. Again, ensure that Kraken Bolts ratchets back the fire rate accordingly (so that the thing doesn't turn into an invincible god-killer with those applied), and make sure that the Assault version keeps its fire rate. It can maintain the accuracy loss, since he's one-handing it.
3. Weapon in addition to (NOT REPLACING) the existing pistol.
4. Fuck year.
Fluff-wise, True Grit allows a Bolter to be wielded like a pistol with no loss in accuracy compared to a regular Tactical wielding a Bolter with two hands. That said, I wouldn't mind Bolters getting a slight damage buff, with the Kraken Bolts perk granting slightly better armour stripping capabilities and effective range to the Tactical's Bolter while retaining the same ROF and health damage.It can maintain the accuracy loss, since he's one-handing it.
True that. Fluff-wise, Storm Bolters are basically more accurate Bolters with higher ammo capacity and a slightly higher rate of fire. Stalker Bolters are noted for their extended firing range and capacity to inflict added armour damage compared to regular Bolters...think automatic sniper rifle.it's still outdone DPS-wise by the Stalker and Storm Bolter outside of medium range.
Off-topic: I've noticed that when the Bolter is fired by an Assault, the recoil / barrel lift animation doesn't coincide with the weapon's actual rate of fire...minor nit-pick really
So do we consider this balance thread complete? Or do we chalk it up as to being in need of further debate?
So is it agreed that the True Grit Bolter:
1. Needs to be as good as a Tactical's Bolter
2. Should not replace the Bolt Pistol
Awesome. Let's have pie.
unperked it combos well with with hand to hand combat, or grenades.Originally Posted by Jaimas
Unperked bolter's different to pistol not better, spray vs quickdraw (pistol headshot kill should remain).
My preferred perk for bolter is improved accuracy. kraken is a wasted slot for me as are the ammo perks for plasma weapons.
nay to additional bolter buffs
seems fair to have bolter in addition to pistol, using true grit perk.
Last edited by dirtyprotest; 14th Dec 11 at 3:53 PM.
#9
Okay, so I met some guy who had an ASM with impenetrable, true grit, combat stims and hammer.
this was pretty much the deadliest thing I've seen aside from some of the vengeance and lasdev wizardry I've encountered.
the combination of impenetrable and combat stims makes the guy pretty good at shooting, and the hammer makes him good up close. as a stalker/melta tac, I was completely helpless to the guy, as he would just hop out of melta range and outdamage me with his bolter, while the stims and Imp means I don't deal any back. No chance at all. as a devestator, I'd just die to the hammer. the way I ended up killing the guy was with a double-perked bolter, as I can outdamage him through reliable headshots, and if he comes close I combat roll away and spray him while he's locked in his swing animation. this probably works even better with a storm bolter, but I suck with that weapon. other than that, I feel there's not a single thing that build cannot take on.
so... yeah, its probably somewhat UP. But I think this is more because the BP in particular is simply OP, rather than the bolter itself needing to be buffed.
<3
only get 1 stim which dont last too long if they've got time to swallow 1. asm's always prone to a little chainsword bushwhacking.
most (except truegritters & plasma pistoleros) pack a BP in their handbag - pretty even.
More parity if gritters were given bolter in addition to BP.
Can we get *some* kind of confirmation/denial that this is actually being looked into?
#12
dirty, that build is no theorycraft, I saw it in action and it ruled supreme. the combat stims in combination with impenetrable makes an ASM suddenly take on tacs in ranged and win. I'm very much aware of the limitations of combat stims, but clever playing and a smitten of patience to set up your ambushes go a long way to increase combat stim viability.
#13
Lasdev wizardry?
I still maintain that lasdev is total bullshit. The scatter from FOTM is only noticeable at long ranges. Occasionally though I'm still pulling off long range kills unscoped with a second shot since I'm using blutack. Blutack isn't even ideal because it blocks up the centre of the reticule when scoped. Not while unscoped though, and it's pure lulz.
Hammer+ stims and impenetrable. That contributed to my max killstreak hunting dev nests. So fun.
That reminds me though, I wanted to get good at vengeance launcher. I've seen what it can do, but it requires impeccable timing and judgement to get people in mid air.
Sorry, we seem to be going off topic...
killing with a plan always helps.
"I love it when a plan comes together."
If someone gets the jump on me, fair do's I'm a goner.
Listen, we've already crunched the numbers on this. The half-speed, reduced-accuracy bolter is a terrible weapon and is, in fact, a downgrade from the Bolt Pistol, which does more damage per-shot, is significantly more accurate, and one-shot kills with headshots if the target's armor is out. It's also a downgrade from the Plasma Pistol, which whilst inaccurate, is pretty much better than the TG Bolter in every capacity.dirty, that build is no theorycraft, I saw it in action and it ruled supreme. the combat stims in combination with impenetrable makes an ASM suddenly take on tacs in ranged and win. I'm very much aware of the limitations of combat stims, but clever playing and a smitten of patience to set up your ambushes go a long way to increase combat stim viability.
We've labbed it extensively. The Bolter just is not worth it as things stand. It needs to be better, and it shouldn't replace the bolt pistol.
#16
Ah I didn't see Dimension mentioning the TG bolter in that build.
What does TG bring to that build that air cooled thrusters can't do better?
It gives you a range and rate of fire combo that outplays stormie or melta tacs.
#18
Is the gain there worth it?
I haven't played that much recently, but whenever I've seen/played with a melta, it's always with weapon versatility, usually taking stalker bolter. Impenetrable True Grit Assaults aren't going to beat that at range.
As an ASM I've always accepted that I'm going to have to specialise a bit. Chainsword lets me beat tacs generally and hammer beats devs. If I see someone running a melta, I just don't engage them in the usual manner. I dodge all over the place while trying to lay down range on them from above. Besides I don't have to engage them, as a class with high mobility the point is I can choose which fights to fight.
Regardless I'll give the build a go and see what I think. Oh, I'll miss you ACT.
#19
Make the bolter an addition, and not a replacement.
Perk fixed.
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
Yep with that fix - empty bolt pistol clip then finish with a TG bolter a good way of unlocking kraken & acccuracy perks.
Love that pistol.anyway of unlocking its tac knife?
Problem is that TG Bolter is still half the speed and notably less accurate. It being a secondary isn't going to make the weapon not a piece of shit. Why the hell would I use the Bolter when the Bolt Pistol and Plasma Pistol do the job so much better?Make the bolter an addition, and not a replacement.
Perk fixed.
My fix is to do the above, plus buff it to unperked tactical bolter levels.
You're wrong on this. The TG bolter fires considerably slower and is considerably less accurate. Tac Stormbolter out-performs it at every range.It gives you a range and rate of fire combo that outplays stormie or melta tacs.
An assault with BP & TG bolter, has a healthy stock of ranged ammo before reloading & manoeuvrability
Except True Grit replaces the bolt pistol, so he doesn't have a healthy stock of ranged ammo.
TG Bolter doesn't add anything to his manuverability, though, and the bolt pistol/plasma pistol are infinitely superior to the TG Bolter in literally every catagory.An assault with BP & TG bolter, has a healthy stock of ranged ammo before reloading & manoeuvrability
Ammo isn't hugely hard to come by for any class, either, so this isn't even much of an issue.
#25
More shots per clip than the BP, no chance of a headshot with the Bolter. An equivalent trade, especially when you consider the point of the perk is to increase the viable tactics an Assault can employ.
If you have proof that the True Grit Bolter is substantially worse, please, paste it. I dislike founding a balance supposition on made-up data.
Quite right TG bolter adds no manoeuvrabilty nor is there a question of ammo scarecity.TG Bolter doesn't add anything to his manuverability, though, and the bolt pistol/plasma pistol are infinitely superior to the TG Bolter in literally every catagory.
Ammo isn't hugely hard to come by for any class, either, so this isn't even much of an issue.
If an assault/rap is able to fly & switch weapon (avoid reload delay) he/she becomes a spray killing skyborne turret by emptying both clips.
Bolt Pistol does more damage per-shot. Plasma Pistol can't headshot either, but it fires faster, does better DPS, and has better accuracy as part of the bargain. If you want good ranged punch as an Assault, you would be dozens of times better-served by taking a Pistol Perk than True Grit. Bank on it.More shots per clip than the BP, no chance of a headshot with the Bolter. An equivalent trade, especially when you consider the point of the perk is to increase the viable tactics an Assault can employ.
Here's a fun experiment you can do on your own.If you have proof that the True Grit Bolter is substantially worse, please, paste it. I dislike founding a balance supposition on made-up data.
Go into any multiplayer mode with a friend. You can do that, right? If not, go into Exterminatus. If you have it, Chaos Unleashed also works, since the Guard and Orks will fight one another, letting you get some peace and quiet for this experiment.
Now then - first, choose a TG-Equipped Assault.
Go and fire at a wall from about 100 feet. Take note of your fire rate and your ammunition groupings.
Now do the same with a Tactical. Be sure not to use Kraken Bolts or Targetter. 3 things immediately become apparent:
* The TG Bolter fires about 30% slower
* The TG Bolter is significantly less accurate, with a much wider scatter. Seriously, the Stormbolter has a narrower scatter. Test it.
* The combination of 1 and 2 means that the Tac Bolter is a much better weapon than the Assault Bolter.
Oh, but we're not done yet. With the aid of a friend, fire at a target that won't fight back - you will note, immediately, that the TG bolter consistently more ammo to bring down a target than the Bolt Pistol or Plasma Pistol, and that's not even counting the fact that the TG Bolter has accuracy issues and thus will miss often. You can test it in Exterminatus, too - The TG Bolter will consistently have trouble bringing down guardsmen and basic Ork Slugga Boyz, let alone tougher fare because of its low DPS and bad accuracy.
The general gist is that the TG Bolter is not a good weapon at all, and you can prove this very, very easily. Considering the perk spent, it should at LEAST Give you a bolter equal to an Unperked Tac Bolter, and not the currently-gimped one it gives.
I dunno about giving an ASM/raptor a tac bolter. I think the unperked tac bolter is actually pretty decent, it's just everyone drops it ASAP because you're forced to use it when you first start playing and the other weapons have a much higher cool factor. Remember, an ASM/raptor can take impenetrable, has a better dodge, has way better melee, and jump than a tac. An ASM with a tac bolter would be an absolute nightmare to fight. I assume Relic tested the TG bolter with tac bolter stats and came to the conclusion it was overpowered. It's hard to believe that they'd make up a special gimped version for ASM unless the default version was too good.
That being said, it definitely sucks in its current form. Maybe giving it the same spread as the tac bolter but keeping the lower RoF would be a good place to start.
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#29
its not that simple.
a true grit ASM is a nightmare to fight as a meltatac. it basically forces you to rely on the BP or a secondary weapon, otherwise you're creamed. and this is with the supposably shit dps it does right now.
in combination with impenetrable, an unperked tac bolter would be WAY too potent.
also, the weapon spread works to your advantage, because it makes it easier to score hits while on the move. this in combination with the fact that it does more armor damage than the BP enables you to start shooting on the approach, rather than waiting for the groundpound to start the offensive.
also, consider the increased mobility of the ASM, and the mad rolling tacs start in order to avoid melee with you (even if you're not really initiating it), I've seen an ASM win pure firefights with tacs, I went with the same build and started doing the same thing. especially notorious to die were plasma, stalker, vengeance and melta tacs. SB will usually own you, and targeter bolter marines as well, the first because of the stupid DPS you can put out with more accuracy than the TG bolter, and the latter because constant headshotting is very much possible. vs the impenetrable/TG build, my usual stalker/melta tac was nothing but dead meat.
Also, I'm fine with the storm bolter outperforming the true grit bolter in every scenario. its hard to compare these weapons because they're not on the same platform, and thus have different synergies.
honestly, I think many of you just need to go and use the damn perk and see for yourself. it might be a little UP, but not terribly, and its hugely underrated and underestimated.
you will have to adjust your fighting style quite a bit, because a truegrit ASM plays quite different from a pistol ASM. But I hold it to you that once you've adjusted, you can't claim that true grit isn't somewhat viable.
There is nothing the TG Bolter does better than the Plasma Pistol.
Nothing. Except ammo count, which doesn't really matter because the TG bolter is garbage.
Seriously, compare it to the two pistols:
The Plasma Pistol It's faster, more accurate, offers better DPS, and charged shots.
The Bolt Pistol does much more damage per-shot, and instant-kills with headshots if the target's armor is out.
The True Grit Bolter is worse than these in every single category, does nowhere near enough damage, and is nowhere near accurate enough to justify a perk loss for. Honestly, if it just was buffed to tactical standards, there wouldn't be a need to have it in addition to a pistol as several proposed. As things stand, it is actually a downgrade from your standard armament, a belief shared among much of the remaining veteran playerbase on LIVE.
#31
Jaimas, be that as it may, I'm at least giving the build a shot next time I play Space Marine. Dimension's point is not that it is currently worth the perk slot, only that it is somewhat viable. If that is the case then buffing it to tactical levels may be overbuffing it.
Just saying, as someone who's used both the pistols and TG Bolter extensively, it currently just isn't worth it in any way, shape, or form.
It was somewhat viable back when Grenade Spam was a commonality, and it could do well for CQC mop-up, but that was really due to how OP grenades were and not how useful the Bolter was, since you could very easily do that with the Plasma Pistol without any real performance loss.
The TG Bolter nowadays really loses out to all of the other choices, which really sucks.
#33
I agree though, I love both pistols and I've used both extensively, although I prefer bolt pistol simply because the one hit kill on unarmored targets is so powerful.
I just know how much of a fine line it is between lackluster and good. And since you have gone to such lengths to point out how much worse a TG bolter is compared to a unperked tac bolter, then the TG bolter might be just more than good if it were buffed to unperked bolter levels.
Strategy point: if someone was somehow dominating me with a TG impenetrable build (I don't know the feeling yet), and I were insistent on using a tac, I would avoid high ceiling spaces. His main advantage is still his mobility and taking that away from him will nullify the mobile bolter advantage.
And you won't, lulz. Impenetrable isn't magic, it gives an Assault an equivalent of slightly above natural Devastator durability. Flying while shooting isn't really all that its cracked up to be, so he is going to be a slightly tougher Tactical with a significantly weaker gun.if someone was somehow dominating me with a TG impenetrable build (I don't know the feeling yet),
The only cool thing about shooting as an assault is unexpected firing lines and the combo of ground-pound + pew pew. So, in other words, ambushing, which is largely the feature of being an Assault rather than using True Grit. DFA + Bolt Pistol headshot on a Tac who is still in the "must roll away from scary sword" rather than "need to strafe-dodge bullets" mode is a hilarious thing to do.
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