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Post your Kadeshi Past/Future after Exile Fleet encounter

  1. #1
    Member Prawn663's Avatar
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    Post your Kadeshi Past/Future after Exile Fleet encounter

    Goodday i made this thread to give a place for people to give their visions on the Kadeshi Before the Encounter with the Kushan Exiles Mothershipfleet and after that Encounter.

    Me, myself is going to give my own vsion in a seperate post wich ill be editing and adding parts to in the later future, i'll might also be putting in small Fluff Sections



    Now for something else:::

    Here i give a few examples on what to discuss!!
    these questions have been formulated while reading other Threads with a Kadeshi Interest( wich i will present in a further post with links <<YYEEAAAHHH>>

    for discussion::: Did the kadeshi surfive or did they all die ???

    for discussion::: How did they get such an advanced fighter craft and those advanced ion cannons??

    for dIscussion::: If they survived, was that al their was of them or was the Kadeshi society larger??

    for discussion::: Would the Kadeshi still fear the great evil after their encounter with the Kushan fleet and how would they evolve fleetwise and their society as a hole???

    for discussion::: if the kushans captured Multibeam frigate's, Feul Pods and swarmers during their time within the Kadeshi Nebula, then waht did they do with the crew's and pilots? did they put them in Cryo-suspension or were they integrated in the Kushan Navy? or put in the BRIG/prison ???

    for discussion::: Would the surving Kadeshi that where taken with the mothership fleet form their own group/Kitth or would they still be hold prisoner??

    WIll Update later ================================================23/12/2011
    Last edited by Prawn663; 24th Dec 11 at 11:12 PM.

  2. #2
    Can't say. Involves posting unwanted spoilers. AH! How I want to say things!!!

  3. Homeworld Senior Member  #3
    Tells a story Norsehound's Avatar
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    Shouldn't this be in the Homeworld forum? If it's just discussion and not a creative repository then it should go there.

    Anyway, the Kadesh civilization is gone. Completely. Since the Kadesh have no reason to pause in their relentless destruction of an intruder it meant they had nothing more to attack you with. Three motherships was it, and coincidentally thematic since 3 is a holy number in Christian tradition and ties in with the "cathedral of kadesh".

    What survivors were captured were 'detained' because the revelation of a common ancestry probably gave fleet command a moral quandary. The culture-shock of the Kadeshi loosing their entire civilization to outsiders would probably also confuse and scare all of them- possibly driving many to suicide because they failed in their mission as protectors and don't want to face the complete unknown (especially since myth reinforced the notion that pure evil existed outside the nebula).

    If any of them survived the transition to Hiigara it could go two ways. They could give in and adopt their parent culture or band together in an isolated community against the pressures of living with conquerors... perhaps ending up like a modern-day Kiith Gaalsien. They'd still cause cultural problems for the Exiles and take every opportunity to guilt-trip the Hiigaran population into treating them as an entitled minority based on the atrocities committed by the exiles.

    That's more-or-less where Children of Kadesh was going to go, except the Kadesh jump at the opportunity given to Somtaaw and declare themselves a Kiith to build their own replica mothership and escape Kiith Nabaal's legal persecution.

  4. #4
    In your opinion. You can't say it definitely is. This debate has been done we both know every refute either of us can throw out there and a repeat of the HW3 wishlist among others is unnecessary.

    In retrospect, here's the two sides:

    Pro-survival: The nebula was too big, and only 3 ships could get there in time, planets may reside within which could have been habitable, not backed on proof of any kind, just fan desire to keep them alive. (my side)

    Anti-survival: The Kadeshi civilization over thousands of years developed a meagre fleet of 3 motherships that just so happened to be able to scout out the entire nebula (which are always 10s or even 100s of lightyears across, no exceptions) as a whole and trap everyone, backed only by the fact that they had not been mentioned again in the series which isn't really credible considering Relic's constant lack of continuity in the series. (Norse's side)

    The Turanics did not appear in HW2, does that make them non-existent now? But in any case the argument goes back years and it's useless to bring it back. These are the two sides torn down for what they are, speculation. They never specified in-game, therefore it is impossible to know to 100% certainty.

    Basic summary, believe whatever you want.

  5. Homeworld Senior Member  #5
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    It took a hundred years for the resources of an entire planet to construct one mothership. You think the Kadeshi, with less, could construct so much more?

    You seem to spend more effort shooting down my theory than providing contradictions of your own, Doberman. I must point out that if you're going to believe the Kadesh live beyond the two missions, you MUST rely on stuff not found in the game. If you take the game face-value, the Kadeshi are dead, because they have no more units to use against you. In light of this you can't really attack my theory as the wrong one because there's no in-game evidence to contradict it.

    In any case the real question is "does it serve a fiction's purpose to bring the Kadesh back". A hypothetical Homeworld 3 could retcon the lore to say they survived and provide any number of the pro-survial reasons. Then you have the Kadesh back and the pro-survivial fans are happy. But it still demands the creation of new things to avert the bold fact: There are no more Kadesh because no more units are sent against you.

    Personally I think the Kadesh are much more interesting as a dead civilization reduced to a handful of survivors.

    Why? Because it makes the Kadesh a mirror image of the exiles that the exiles themselves caused. They can't claim to be the good guys on a righteous mission anymore because they effectively did what the Empire nearly did to them over Kharak. In the Exile's case there was no choice, it was either give up their quest or annihilate the Kadesh. Perhaps it is food for thought among some of the fleet that the Empire similarly had no choice when it came to wiping out the Exiles. There may be some secrets about the Exiles that only the Empire knows about, and some hidden legacy that deserved so severe a punishment. Homeworld 2 gives us some of these answers and showed that the exiles were no better than the Empire in the beginning and they were exiled out of fear they would become universe-spanning conquerors.

    What do we get out of a Kadeshi survival? They're allowed to make cameo appearances and become a source of characters to have a hip back-story. Never mind that they didn't the nebula in thirteen generations, and it's unlikely that they are ever going to. Sure you can fan-wank some explanation that they've changed after the passage of the exiles and are now some big threat with an eternal hatred for the Hiigarans. But if you go that route you just have the Vaygr with a different fleet of ships and a necessary retcon to explain why they didn't use more units against you. Compared to the option of just creating an entirely new threat, keeping the Kadesh alive is easily declared fanwanking.

    And personally I have no problems with wiping out the Turanic raiders either. The idea that the Turanic raiders are only one mothership-carrier band of mercenaries feels rather novel. Just like the idea that the Bentusi are only one harbor ship. Cataclysm changed all that however.

  6. #6
    Given that the Kadeshi allocated three Motherships in desperation to stop the Kushan I'd say that's a pretty good estimation that they threw everything into the grinder. Heck, from what I remember even the Ambassador was flipping out at the thought over what would happen if the Kushan succeeded in passing through. My thoughts is that they're essentially dead, a few fuel pods drifting through the nebula and junk might remain but by committing all of their inhibitors to stop the S'jet Mothership (then losing them all) essentially means their command structure/infrastructure/culture/civilization just went poof because they couldn't see reason nor control their fanaticism. Being that these Motherships take crazy amounts of years to create and then they subsequently lost them (and with their fleet devastated that they wouldn't be able to vulture anyone else) if any Kadesh are remaining they'll probably be conquered by Turanics or nebula harvesters (ironically making their greatest fear come to pass themselves).

    The only way I could see Kadeshi survive is if a bunch of their tribe was held by the Kushan as prisoner after their ships were salvaged, and even then that's stretching it (what ever happens to salvaged crew anyway?). Even then, they would never be in a position to recreate themselves, they probably would go for death before dishonour (these are fanatics), etc.

  7. #7
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    Heh, aye, the Thread is a bit more for HW general forum. I was just about to talk in fanon mode.


    About Cataclysm(and HW2) :: I'd say that it is not fully eligible to say that the Kadeshi were simply gone. For Cataclysm, the plot and locations were most certainly still beyond reach of Garden of Kadesh after all.


    I cannot really choose which "truth" is better or viable as I am just a fanwriter and the freedom of shaping reality is, well, you know

    Major problem is that there are actually two logical and realistic results after the exiled kushans rolled through the Garden.


    If I were to choose, I'd have to go with the fact that there were indeed leftovers in the Garden AND a sort of Prisoners of War Kadeshi.


    In the end, we simply lack information though. The game most certainly was not accurate in detail although it could have been. Cutscenes, while awesome in their form and content, could have had an option to bring in a LOT more detail and minutes to various aspects of the game. But that is just fanboi talk.

    Just wanted to toss that in.
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  8. Homeworld Senior Member  #8
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    We lack information pointing to the survival of the Kadesh civilization. A few fuel pods left behind don't make a nation and it's not going to stand at all once the treasure hunters arrive armed with the knowledge of why people never returned from there. A few missile destroyers can clean up any swarmers that were left and frigates finish off the pathetically armed fuel pods. Everyone dies.

    I think you can rationalize the two beam pods by the ghost ship as either strays on patrol or an unsuccessful attempt to wipe out the derelict. I would figure that the ship was probably creepier than anything in their mythology and after a half-assed attack against it they decided it was forbidden to approach. Nothing saying that missile destroyer wasn't there longer than the Kadesh, and nothing saying there weren't more of them that could have wiped out a Kadesh attack. For all we know those Imperial ships are what's left of the battlegroup that ventured there in the first place but didn't return.

  9. #9
    The Kushan were just beginning to get technological, about a few decades ahead of us at our rate. The Kadeshi already had ships from the start. I can tear apart my theory all I want, but that's your job in the argument, not mine.

    That is all I have to say about it because I'm tired at the moment.

  10. #10
    If you take the game face-value, the Kadeshi are dead, because they have no more units to use against you. In light of this you can't really attack my theory as the wrong one because there's no in-game evidence to contradict it. If you take the game face-value, the Kadeshi are dead, because they have no more units to use against you.
    This is a non-sequitur. Several pieces of information that arenot given in the game are needed to reach this conclusion. I believe I've listed them before in past discussions of this sort, but I could do so again if necessary.

    It is possible to construct a setting or narrative around what we're given that demands their extermination. It's equally possible to construct one that doesn't. Neither is strongly supported by in-game evidence, nor is either objectively wrong.
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  11. Homeworld Senior Member  #11
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    What more do I need for my conclusion to be correct one based on just what comes from the game?

    The kadesh are massing a second ambush to annihilate you utterly. it is in their sacred important place thingy. It's pretty clear they are pulling out every stop to destroy you. Why would they hold anything back, after all?

    So if all ships in the Kadesh fleet are there and all of them get destroyed what more is there? How do they survive past those two levels if there are no more spaceships to oppose you in a final assault? Even when the last mothership retreated it didn't leave the map to gather these supposed other ships for another assault, or retreat to them for safety. I conclude it had no other place to go.

    You would have a point if the game auto-generated reinforcements every few minutes to drop out of hyperspace and attack you. From that you could suppose they have assets elsewhere they were putting in reserve, or just didn't have enough time to mass together their entire armada and the trickle-in are from other areas in the nebula. The absence of such tells me there were no other Kadesh controlled spaceships to oppose you.

    Besides nobody's given a meta reason to bring them back from the dead except for the implied fan pandering. They don't serve any story function except as a roadblock on the return journey and a note on the origins of the Exiles. What more can you get out of them? At least the Turanic Raiders serve as the universal space pirates and appear in such a way that doesn't cause an objection. Whatever you have a vengeful Kadesh armada do, you can have the Vaygr do without needing as big of a retcon.

  12. #12
    You assume that the Kadeshi would bring every ship they have to this fight. It is possible that they would bring every available ship to the fight, but not all ships are available. It is also possible that they bring what they judge to be enough force to the fight to destroy you, and misjudge. The religious fervor demonstrated in their conversations with the player might drive them to throw every last man, woman, and child at you, or it might not. The minds of their leaders may be more nuanced than the speeches of their spokespeople. There could be non-combat ships that would have contributed little in the ambush, and so weren't brought. There could be holy sites and civilians that need protecting too, even given the importance of the cathedral. Furthermore, we don't really have any idea how communications work in this universe, and it may be possible that they simply couldn't get the word out to all ships in time for them to get in position. Trickle-in attack waves would lend support to this idea, but their absence doesn't disprove it out of hand.

    Meta reason? Well, for starters the lack of a reason to appear in a story does not imply that they must all be dead. The turanics do not need to all be dead after they're defeated, and the non-rebel taiidani aren't all dead after you kill the emperor. The removal of a group as an obstacle doesn't demand their removal from the setting. I will admit that doing so adds a great deal of poignancy to the kadesh missions. It strengthens certain emotional themes in the story. In fact if the ships we destroy are the only ships the Kadeshi have, that paints a very grim picture of their past thousands of years, living in what must either be squalor or harsh population control, perpetually on the edge of extinction if anyone decides to give clearing out the nebula a good try. It makes their defeat all the more bitter. I can see great appeal in that version of the setting, but that doesn't mean it must be so.

    From a storytelling point, their continued presence can, for example, act as foil for the Kushan. Having taken their homeworld, do they try to offer it to any Kadeshi that might survive? Can they share? Can contact even be made? A friendship seems unlikely, and were I the Kadeshi I wouldn't much believe any promises of a paradise world waiting if I just leave my safe, holy nebula. Would the Kushan persist and keep trying? Could something happen that force them together, or could some other power play them off each other? Cultural guilt over the conflict may lead the Kushan to make concessions they wouldn't otherwise make, putting them in difficult positions. A personal quest to make reparations or form some sort of rapport between the two people could be a story seed, or personal quests of vengeance. If the Kushan did take prisoners, how would they be treated if they were returned? Would their people accept them back or reject them as tainted?

    Yeah, using them as a boiler-plate Proud Warrior Race backstory or the source of a new ravening horde out for the player/hero to fight is pretty boring, especially on paper and devoid of any other narrative support. But that's not all that can be done with them.

  13. #13
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    Just asking, was there any reference or word given by the creators of HW regarding the Kadeshi matter and their survival/extinction?


    (Although, common sense already says "no" as we are still here talking about something that is over 10 years old xD)

    My point is actually figuring if there was ever some canon-statement by the makers of HW who say that those three needleships were the only ones ever.
    Unfortunately, my memory is full of holes and I can't remember the cutscenes of HW1 during the kadeshi timeline.

  14. Homeworld Senior Member  #14
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    What reason would the Kadesh have to put anything in reserve? This was a fight to the death, for if the exiles escaped their certain doom would be soon to follow (in their minds). If it's a life or death struggle for survival you don't leave anything behind that can be thrown against the intruder to keep them from leaving. Even non-combat ships could be used as kamikazie craft- the AI knows how to do this.

    Besides, if Relic wanted to portray the Kadesh as being more than scavenger space pirates they would have been given resource ships and a working RU economy. That they don't suggests they're just as strapped as the Turanics are, but don't have the benefit of trading with other empires for RUs to make anything.

    I don't believe the idea that the Kadesh were putting up a front. To create "no-one returns", if an intruder survives a first attempt they throw their entire civilization at them to destroy them utterly. For a scavenger culture with no planet I can believe such desperation. So I doubt the Kadesh would have been possibly bluffing or holding anything back.

    "could be non-combat ships" "Extra holy sites" again creates something out of nothing, which is the only way you can get the Kadesh to survive the encounter in the nebula. Trickle in waves can help the idea that these things exist. Their absence means they never existed in the first place.

    If the in-game lore has no knowledge of the Kadesh then the only place they can be found is in the nebula. If you enter the nebula and wipe out the Kadesh attacking you it's unlikely that you can travel anywhere else in the universe and find the Kadesh. You don't need to wipe out every Imperial ship in the game to defeat the Empire and it's implied that there are many fully-staffed Imperial bases that you went out of your way to avoid. The dialogue doesn't suggest anything about other surviving kadesh ships.

    The gravitas of wiping out the Kadesh is precisely why I think the Kadesh civilization is better off destroyed. The Hiigarans are no more the heroes than the Empire, and it is a sobering lesson to carry with them on the return home. But I also like the dynamic of what to do with the handful you capture from salvage efforts. I think these things make for a much more interesting story than 'Lol they're still there and have the Kadesh empire of crazies'. There is the chance to have a new Kadesh come out of living among the exiles though, so it's not like I'm saying they're banned FOREVER from returning. Just that their civilization was wiped out in those two missions.

    I think the dynamic of reparations and Exile-Kadesh relations is better served if the Kadesh have been reduced to a handful of Exile prisoners, because it allows the Kadesh to use guilt and pity to leverage bleeding-heart exile citizens. If their civilization survived in the nebula I don't see much change or threat from them except to do what they've always done and harass intruders. That is, if they didn't commit mass-suicide to avoid the certain doom that is to befall them from letting the exiles escape.

  15. #15
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  16. Homeworld Senior Member  #16
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    I posted my thoughts, Doberman challenged them, here we are.

    But there's nothing to stop anyone from side-stepping this debate and posting their own thoughts on the post-Hw Kadesh situation!

  17. #17

    The Great Norsehound Rebuttal Continues

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    Granted, needle ship is not the original name, but needle sounds a bit more threatening than spindle ;D.

    One thing I am not certain about regarding the Kadeshi is how they could operate so effectively in intercepting just about every ship that dared to cross the nebula. I am referring to the story of the Bentusi about the nebula and assumptions gathered during those missions. Cutscenes also reveal that they destroyed just about anything encroaching on their holy territory.
    We never really got the idea of how large the nebula is, yet we have to assume it was too large for the exiled to go around. I have doubts that 3 needleships - or whatever they may look like - could cover that region unless they did have the sensory. Even so, I am afraid it is all fanon from there on.

    We are probably debating on things the development crew of HW did not even think anybody would talk about time and again ^^.


    I could post more later (god forbid) but I have to go somewhere. My last thought sounds a bit of a derailing one, but I always wondered if the Kadeshi could get something like the "Ori/Origin" faction of Stargate SG1.

  19. Homeworld Senior Member  #19
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    But the Kadesh aren't using babies as ammunition, and the elderly are just as capable being fighters as the young. Presuming of course any elderly were allowed to survive given the enormous space constraints on the Kadesh civilization. They have no open skies remember, what space they have comes from what they can construct and pressurize. With no clear scaffold or shipyard it means space is very hard to come by and if you're not pulling your own weight in society, you're likely jettisoned so others with greater work ethic have a chance to survive. It's cruel, but maybe that mentality helped shape the bizzare Kadesh religion.

    I point out that civilian habitats is again creating something out of nothing. Without creating anything new the only place a Kadesh civilian population can be is in the motherships. All three of them were thrown into the fight, and when it came down to the last one it tried to flee to a place of safety. An easy presumption is that they were trying to appeal to the almighty for protection, because clearly their own strength had failed.

    On your extended metaphor, you're presuming Kadesh society has the same values and concerns that we do. Cramped space, scarce resources, and near constant desperation leave little room for luxuries. The Kadesh, in their mind, had a choice: Fight or lie down and die (or worse). In a life or death struggle you don't leave stragglers behind in case you fail, because it means delivering them to (possibly) a fate worse than death. We only have the speaker's obvious horror at the notion to describe what terrors the Kadesh thought they would face. Obviously it was enough to risk their utter destruction.

    In a normal encounter between a Kadesh and an outsider vessel the Kadesh always triumph. Think about it, their adversaries were pirates (with slow, low-damage fighters and corvettes), and unarmed freighters. Likely the only other time the Kadesh had to rally together like this was when the Empire was finally convinced to send an expedition. Against three motherships with no MS of their own (and possibly no carriers), they were quickly annihilated. It's possible the Empire encountered the ghost ship beforehand, loosing control of some of their ships (including a token missile destroyer), and got finished off by the Kadesh when they probed deeper.

    When a patrol encounters significant resistance the only answer is total extermination, and to be absolutely sure the intruder is dead the entire might of the Kadesh civilization lands on their heads. All resources, all fighters, all ships. It's the only way to be sure, least they face the fate worse than death.

    But what I said earlier is true: To have the Kadesh survive the two missions of the Great Nebula, you MUST create something out of nothing, and retcon the situation to create other survivors. Taking the game as-is the Kadesh civilization has been wiped out.

    ----------------

    Hey, I like the word spindle. Ultimately in Children of Kadesh, their motherships are called 'pines', being a corruption of pine-needle.

    After thirteen generations I think the Kadesh would have found a way to circumvent the Nebula's scrambling emissions and detect intruders when they've passed a certain point. The three were likely on regular patrol on the outskirts as well, and when one had a problem it returned to range of the other two and began planning for Utter Annihilation. Otherwise they hardly have a reason for coming together.

    Though one bit of fanon I created was to give the Kadesh remote sensor pods that they seeded through areas of the nebula. They're remotely networked, so when one spots something the signal is chained through the others to a mothership for interception. These pods are practically invisible to untrained eyes, and are about the size of a human head.

    One of the beautiful things about Homeworld was how open it was to interpretation. Likely Relic didn't spend any more thought on the fate of the Kadesh after the player survived against them. If anything, they spent a little more time writing how the Kadesh got to the nebula instead of what happened afterward. What came after wasn't important since it wasn't necessary to the journey homward.

  20. #20
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    for discussion::: Did the kadeshi surfive or did they all die ???
    Debatable/unclear (this thread shows that) but them being completely dead is better for the story as Norse says. Besides of course those in the brig, along with a whole lotta Taiidan and the odd raider.

    for discussion::: How did they get such an advanced fighter craft and those advanced ion cannons??
    A lot of time, and little choice but to have better weapons than inbound ships in order to survive by pillaging them.

    for discussion::: if the kushans captured Multibeam frigate's, Feul Pods and swarmers during their time within the Kadeshi Nebula, then waht did they do with the crew's and pilots? did they put them in Cryo-suspension or were they integrated in the Kushan Navy? or put in the BRIG/prison ???
    This. Muchos interesting story potential. It seems that plenty of Kadeshi were taken prisoner at least according to the way most folks played it (salving as many Kadeshi MBFs and even fighters as possible). Assuming the Hiigarans didn't just kill em all (which seems semi likely based on some HW1 cutscenes, and the all or nothing nature of the pilgrimage) then you've got a group that may become a new religion group of sorts back on Hiigara, while having issues integrating into society. You can draw all sorts of interesting plot parallels with real life displaced people groups and oppressed post colonial native groups. There are some strong similarities with things like the holocaust or native americans. Loads of possibilities.

    What if HW3 were to deal with a civil war caused by an eventual Kadeshi uprising? What if the Kadeshi religion (a form of nature worship I suppose) caught on with a decent chunk of the Hiigaran population over the centuries? You could have extremist greenies essentially. Maybe an eventual Kadeshi theocracy running Hiigara as Hiigarans? It happened with Christianity if you think of the original Hiigarans as analogous to the Romans. The possibilities are endless! Civil wars, religious wars, whatever. Maybe HW3 could be about the descendants of those prisoners making a pilgrimage to the garden to see what remains they can find and encountering nasties along the way? Finding the garden has been strip mined and then going on an epic rage against the "great evil"? All sorts of cool game plot ideas there.

  21. #21
    Member Prawn663's Avatar
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    Well hello people nice to see this thread created some interest and discussion allong you all.

    I've been away for a while but now i'm back not like how i used to be but i'm back anyway

    Greetings to you all and yes stingray it is another Kadeshi discussion

    Something else about Kadeshi ,, I'f got my hands on a Pdf of the old very old Kadeshi Crusade and two other old fic's wich ill be posting in dobermans story collection thread when i find it again

    So i all wish you a good saturday and sunday ( its called weekend in my language wich is both saturday and sunday <dutch> )

    Thank you all for your contributions to this forum
    Greets and Cheerio

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