Wargame: European Escalation

[Dark_Avenger]

Mind if I add you guys. Or can I automatically see everyone on in a clan?

If so. Mind if I get an invite?

[Afoxi]

So i found out that Teams aren't Clans, per say. They're limited to 4 players. =\

[Infidelicious]

So ATGM vehicles > Infantry.

[Busby]

I'm not sure I understand. But what I do understand, is that the second Wasteland mission is a pain in the arse. So. Many. Rocket. Systems. Combined with the cheating AI that knows where all your units are and doesn't have to worry about supply... Um, yea. Ninja Mi-24 and save abuse can only go so far before you get annoyed when they manage to snipe your Mi-9 out of the air, again.

[Cortlendt]

How can you make your heli NOT land if left alone? I'm so annoyed having constantly micro my recon Gazelle.

And a useful link on how to remap your hotkeys - http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/view...hp?f=11&t=1118

[Busby]

Order them to hover over woods/buildings, or give them a change altitude order once they drop down. TBH it would be very nice if there was a "stay high" order or something.

[Infidelicious]

So, after conducting Science! there are some serious, serious balance issues with the game.

[Skullcap]

Few questions for those playing this, as a prospective buyer:

- Is the camera fluid in motion from birds eye to unit level, any noticing judders or akwardness?
- Any noticable performance issues and does it have working AA which isn't a jaggered zone.
- How many resources are there to manage?
- Is it a somewhat rock paper sissors balance e.g. helicopters decimate tanks but a infantry squad with shoulder mounted SAM can take out said helicopter but a tank can come along and run down/mow down infantry.
- It says 2 factions, 8 playable races, so is it a evil/good split or something else.

Thanks for anyone who answers

[Misiok]

Uh oh, the game is rather not demanding that much for toda's systems. The camera zoom in/out is incredibly fluid and still amazingly nice. It's not full of hard counters. For example, basic tanks can't shoot down helicopters because they don't have machine guns. If you get tanks that have machine guns they can counter or at least slightly damage air. Since all infantry pretty much uses guns they can shoot down helicopters as well, but their range is really small so unless you go right above them you should be okay. Each unit has at maximum 3 different weapons fulfilling different roles. Also, range is huge on most of them, so you have to take that into consideration as well.

Resources? Zero, you have to capture 'zones' to get income which you spend on units. You can have as much units as your money allows you, but said units come in limited quantity, so for example you can have at maximum 20 tanks of a certain type. If you use them all you can't have any more. Depending on unit quality (well, crappy tanks can be 'bought' en masse, while the really good ones might be limited not only by a big price increase but also by quantity, say 10 super tanks). Then there's also the fact that you have to manage supplies (fuel, ammo and repairs all from a single logistic truck) so you won't have your huge push into the enemy's main encampment stopped by running out of fuel.


There are 2 factions but it's a single race, humans :P
There's NATO and Warsaw Pact. Each side has 4 nations backing them up. Each game you can be on one team but you can't use, for example, Pact units on a NATO team.

[Nerdfish]

So, after conducting Science! there are some serious, serious balance issues with the game.

Balance is so overrated.
Life isn't balanced Most of modern military aren't seen complaining about it. ><

[Infidelicious]

They also don't win battles with the most unrealistic, derptastic tactics ever, unlike this game.

[Trizzdog]

The tactics we're talking about are pretty much the same ones used by a certain computer scientist back in the 80's who calculated how to win a certain war game tournament guaranteed (and did so), exposing the flaws of the system.

[Busby]

Cheap unit spam? Which cheap units are we talking about here? Purely for testing purposes of course.

[Brenil]

As a part of this Science! experiment, I must say that making this imbalance public would, without a doubt, ruin the game. It's that bad. While it seems rather obvious that it will be found out by the masses eventually, I don't think it's a good idea to expedite the process by airing the 'how to' here. Infact, perhaps our little Think Tank should just PM the developers about it. Whether they'll do anything about it is open to speculation.

[Trizzdog]

Probably soft caps (exponential costs for having more than X of one type of unit) would be easiest. Reworking the morale system could work too, but would be too much work.

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Also, bonus content, because more broken = more fun.

[Misiok]

That artefact for explosions is apparently a common bug.

[Paladin]

That's not a bug, Trizz. The explosions are just so powerful you can see the Matrix encoding in them

[Trizzdog]

Speaking of those explosions, I like how the french mortar carriers are also bugged in another way. They refuse to use their HEAT rounds. Why do I like this? Because I can still kill pretty much anything with the standard mortar shot, thus don't need them. 60mm of amazing! Kill so hard they destroy space and time and reveal decal sheets!

[kais58]

I am very tempted to get this...if only to create an army of only T34-85 and stomp everyone!!!

[DrRansom]

How much of a fix does the "massive flaw" require? Can it be tweaked by limited the number of units available and/or the prices? Or does it require something more substantial.

[Shoota Fodder]

I've yet to find this massive balance flaw. Is it to do with unit spam? I can't really think of anything that would work for spamming.

But yea, I love this game. I recommend it to everyone. I normally fight with mostly infantry and hide them deep in forests. When the enemy gets close, they think its clear so try and take a short cut through it to find a troop of short ranged anti-tank infantry in the trees. By the time they realise they're there, the tanks are all bogged down and the others are running exposing there rear armour.

I also love leaving some juicy targets in the open, just waiting for them to attack me. They get close and I get them to run out of there, suddenly, I've pincered there vanguard, clocked there line of retreat with infantry and destroyed there supply trucks. Then it's just a case of massed fire from all side, a dash of artillery, and a bit of waiting for them to run out of ammo or fuel and it's good game!

[Mantaray]

SEND IN... ALLL THE APC's!

[Arinax]

I love this game.. I wonder where you see the balance flaw ? Atm i havent come across a tactic which was not counterable or could not have been prevented. Its the best RTS for about 5 years.. far better than COH and Starcraft 2 because of the sheer posibilities and tactics you can develop and this game has so much unused potential, i hope modders can get hold of the game and make it even cooler

[Trizzdog]

Well, since we've already racked up a pile of replays and are already building awareness online:

This works best for PACT, but NATO can do this too. I'll provide the PACT build. First, get the base t55 and the east german t55 in your deck. Add some support units if you wish, but it's not necessary. Go into a game. Spam your shiny new 15 point tanks. You should be able to get around 40-50 tanks easy. Get some vet if you have the points to spare (and you should, vet 2 is ideal). Split them up between the major roadways that lead from your bases to theirs. Once the game starts, move fast -> their bases. Congrats, you are now going to win unless they do the same tactic.

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Also, since I mentioned the french mortars before:



Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

[Brenil]

Well, seeing as Trizz spilled the beans, tank blobbing is indeed the nearly unstoppable 'strategy' of this game. It can be done with more than just the T-55, but that is the most bullshit unit to spam. The operational range, cheap cost, and decent firepower, allows you to literally overwhelm any enemy in a mountain of shells that will destroy even the hardiest of tanks. Also, it has been found that by supporting this massive force, you need to bring in the STROP 2 for its great close ranged AA support and ability to keep pace with the entire tank blob. This prevents any helicopter counter in of itself, even the supposedly dreaded 'Gazelle rush', as the AoE splash from AA will melt all helicopters before they do any reasonable damage to the blob.

Before anyone says, "Oh well, you simply do X, Y, Z. Learn to play." I would like to point out that we actively had several games trying to figure out ways to prevent this from working. The only thing that even marginally worked was using elite tanks supported by MLRS spam setting up a defensive firing line around your main base. Yet that only worked if they lazily blobbed together, if they use even the slightest of micro, you won't be able to stop all of the tanks from killing your command vehicles. At the sametime, what makes this so devastating is that while the tanks are bogging you down, the spammers have resources to spare to buy several command vehicles to cap the map unmolested because your entire force is trying to stem the tidal wave of tanks. So, if by some miracle you manage to stop the blob (spoiler: not easy), you've lost control of the map and the spammers are bringing in even more tanks and assets so that it is literally impossible to recover from.

Now keep in mind that the above scenario is if you're expecting the tank blob rush. If you're not, there is, as far as we've all been able to find, no way to stop it if you have a semi-balanced force. You'll just be overwhelmed in minutes and the game will end in tears as your last command vehicles are shelled by 20+ tanks in unison.

So yes, this game, when played with gentlemen rules is quite fun, tactical, and strategic. But when you play it like a gamey troll RTS player, you'll easily find that you cannot lose by spamming dirt-cheap tanks in mass. If this isn't fixed by the developers, this imbalance has the capability to absolutely ruin online play. Because as soon as it catches on, it'll completely sap the good attributes out of the game and replace it with the stupid shit you used to see in other old RTS games with hideous balance decisions.

[Mantaray]

i was watching a hilarious replay earlier... 2000 points. someone threw down all their veteran challengers, a few AA units and then spammed those 5point US APC's. i've never seen a steamroll quite like that before..

[lizardmech]

They should dramatically increase the more expensive tanks moral. Blobbing cheap tanks makes moral of little concern since they won't stun and route all your units at once. You can't even use unvetted heavy tanks as bait because their armor doesn't stop them panicking and being routed. There's so many heavy tank hard counters in the game it would probably be better if they were almost immune to moral issues.

[Bentguru]

it's not just pact that can do it. NATO has a similar rush tactic using Marder VTSI/Lynx hordes. The VTSI is arguably better than the T-55 for this. For a price increase of 5 you get a better main gun (+1 AP), better side armor (2vs1), and a far better top speed (50mph vs 70mph) so your opponent has even less time to react and you can close insanely fast.

I've done this 3 times so far. All have been total victories. Once against a guy who brought out 5 heavy tanks, both his T-80Us and 3 T-80As. I was able to engage them at close range with the marders and they were flat out butchered Within seconds, 0 casualties. 2nd game was on Hells highway and the battle was against a pact line of wooded infantry supported by 4-T62-MVs, malkas, and the various apcs you get with any balanced soviet army. The VTSIs engaged from range, closed, and just blew through the entire line while infantry flanked up the bravo hill. I lost maybe 8 VTSIs and 1 platoon of infantry for the destruction of his entire force, my supporting I-TOW jeeps and mortars never reached the engagement. 3rd game my VTSI force got smerched, but only lost 1 VTSI in the process. The light armor continued it's panicky assault against wooded enemy infantry +helos while my infantry rushed the main base and took it. Dude was ranked >1650 elo, game was over within 4 minutes. In no game did I ever give up more than 200 points. In all three games I kept 300 points in reserve to use after I sized up the enemy force comp, so if I wanted I could dump in all 8 lynx's and lots of pattons if I wanted too.

I've beaten PACT light tank charges before as NATO, my weapon of choice being M1A1s who are faster than the PACT lighter tanks and great at firing on the move. If I have infinite space to back up with with 2 M1A1s I can take out over a dozen pact tanks. Of course you never do have infinite space, but the tactic is always available to some degree. The problem for pact against this nato rush is nothing short of a T-72B is faster than a VTSI. They literally cannot back away fast enough. The AML Lynx runs at 80mph, which is faster than any soviet tank out there. NATO don't have as good a mobile AA as the STROP 2, but a few vulcans and rolands and I have a fair amount of AA power to back up the light armor punch. Short of a PACT player starting the game with a total chopper rush, I don't see how somebody could stop this unless I screw it up.

[Nerdfish]

Brenil, massed infantry anti tank teams in woods does not work ?

[Bentguru]

too many targets, not a fast enough fire rate. And once the tanks/armored vehicles close it's lights out for the infantry.

[Nerdfish]

This sounds insane but could you overwhelm the air defense with heavy gunships ? if most of their points are in tanks and all of your points are in heavy gunships (Cobra / Apache or pack equivalent), you could probably overwhelm AAA with superior range and firepower. Then you can just murder his tanks. and you have helo command, logistics and recon as well, there is literally nothing for the tanks to shoot

Alternatively you can fly past the entire blob and snipe his command vehicles . Keep your gunships landed in your start zone and wait for his tank blob to cross the map, then go after his base ! Now He will have to chase you around with his giant blob of fuel intensive tanks. You will probably lose some heavy gunships, but probably not before he lose all his command.

[Bentguru]

I don't sacrifice any AA units to power this rush. I pack multiple vulcans and rolands with the assault force, with my base covered by more rolands and vulcans.

A helo rush works against this as much as it does against everything else.

[Black]

A misconception people have in this game is that ATGM infantry are for stopping mass tank formations. They really aren't. ATGM's are good at zoning out high value armored targets.

[Bentguru]

In theory, heavy armor would be the counter to mass light armor.

In practice, heavy armor will panic and rout very quickly under any kind of fire (like I-TOW nato jeeps, or nato mortars, both of which I pack), letting the light armor close and take them out.

Really I see no advantage right now for using heavy armor. For 2 M1s I can field 10 VTSIs which combined pack about the same amount of firepower and are much more resistant to routing.

Black, what's your name in this? We should play.

[Caesar]

If you want to play with us, come on the community Mumble server.

[Infidelicious]

Yes Leo2/M1A1's can deal with it provided you have infinite space, and you micro the shit out of them. But equal cost of T55's can tie down your big expensive tanks, and most importantly your attention. 8 T55'S and a Fagot UAZ per M1A1 can keep them running all day, a missed Fagot will cut your ROF in half, a Hit will panic your unit, possibly rout. You fuck up once, you lose your unit. I don't even have to pay attention to them because they're doing their job.

While you're dicking around with a few tanks, I can be driving infantry behind you, doing the same to someone else with more T55's around, whatever I want basically, because you're reacting to me.

[Brenil]

This sounds insane but could you overwhelm the air defense with heavy gunships ?

Nope. Due to the splash damage on AA vehicles with anti-air missiles, any massed helicopter formations will be demolished. The STROP 2 is the best support for this kind of blob, and its ability to move fast and have very good accuracy means that any approach toward the STROPS equates to a rain of downed choppers. It is conceivable that if you spent your entire resources on helicopters, split them up, had them come from different directions, and micro'ed the hell out of them you could possibly defeat the blob. The problem everyone seems to be missing is this:

You don't know you're going to be spammed until the game already has started.

By then it is too late unless you were planning to cheese yourself or people kindly ahead of time let you know they are going to tank blob and dare you to stop them.

P.S.

Some might notice my reverse opinion from before on the STROP 2 in terms of AA quality. My opinion hasn't really changed of the STROP 2 in terms of my normal playstyle, which is a dogged advance. However, the STROP 2 is the best AA in the game to support any spearhead of armored units, as its good accuracy and high speed make it ideal for blitzkriegs through the countryside. So if that's your style, the STROP 2 is a solid AA unit. Yet, seeing as it isn't mine, I still prefer the Tungunska for its superior range, which is very important for point and balanced force defense.

[Bentguru]

unfortunately my mic doesn't work :/

[Infidelicious]

An Apache has to kill 12 T55's to break even in terms of investment 15x12=180. Apache costs 175. If 5 of it's Hellfire missiles hit(This is being EXTREMELY generous, because Apaches generally overkill because it fires another missile before the first one hits) It then has to kill 7 tanks with it's rocket pods and chain gun. Which is never going to happen.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

NATO has a similar rush tactic using Marder VTSI/Lynx hordes

You can only get 8 VTSIs

Spoiler

^ GRENADIEEERS
ps, that game was a draw.

also note the chapparals kill list... ^^

[General Nuke Em]

So you mean I might as well go play C&C Red Alert and mass light tanks? Glad I decided to skip this game after I saw that ridiculous NATO trailer with the Russian hordes pouring out of the hills and firing on full auto.

[Infidelicious]

Depends. If you play with people you know, and play it like... a wargame. It's pretty fun, and deep.

If you expect to win using real tactics, against randoms on the internet who abuse things like this. Then yeah, you made the right decision.

[Trizzdog]

Still a worthwhile game if you have friends who play using normal tactics, or against most pubs. But if you don't have any friends it's still worth skipping over instead.

Also @ Shoe's screenshot: Grossman? More like Bossman.

[Caesar]

The trailer looks nothing like the game.

[Bentguru]

You can only get 8 VTSIs

Nope, 20. You're thinking of the AML lynx

[Mantaray]

hmm... just won a game with m113 spam. 100+ of them on the field and still room for challengers. apparently after a while. HMG's can break tanks.

[Trizzdog]

We've been having fun times testing the morale system in this game, in various ways. It's... brokedick, to say the least.

[Bentguru]

Agreed trizz. I am particularly fond of how units will rout even though they are under no enemy fire and not threatened.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I was actually looking at the singleplayer TO&E its only 8 there

So you mean I might as well go play C&C Red Alert and mass light tanks? Glad I decided to skip this game after I saw that ridiculous NATO trailer with the Russian hordes pouring out of the hills and firing on full auto.

The t55 is an edge case actually, that exarcebates pretty much every problem there is with the mechanics - ease of panicking heavy units, light units with 10 hp, and a nearly-pure points based system with very generous hard caps. In addition, the base t55 is probably underpriced for its utility - it's competitive with the 20 point t62. The t55s excellent operational range also makes it an ideal horde unit, since it will virtually never run out of fuel during an offensive.

If the t55 could be one-shot by heavier units (HP reduction), or if it cost 20 points, it would be much less of a problem.

Also, there's the... schwerpunkt effect of simply driving a horde of tanks down a highway. If the other side has deployed in a broad front, you can punch through a relatively light defense using the highway speed bonus, ravage the enemy base and defeat their forces in detail. T55s are just really good at that due to the sheer wall of steel you can create. But that is possible using any armored units with an all in strategy.

Generally speaking, outside of these edge cases, the game has pretty good gameplay. Multiplayer fights can range from immediate battle royales between entire companies to reconnaissance shadowboxing. I had one game recently where I ran my leopard1a4s out of fuel twice on a small map with only two actual engagements.

[medes]

So you mean I might as well go play C&C Red Alert and mass light tanks? Glad I decided to skip this game after I saw that ridiculous NATO trailer with the Russian hordes pouring out of the hills and firing on full auto.

Don't judge the game on that trailer, it was poorly done and really does not reflect the gameplay. Infantry has no business rushing into an armored column out in the open like that and choppers get cut to shreds if they fly too close.

Doing Wasteland missions atm, for a Heli heavy campaign I'm surprised you can't move two bloody inches without getting ambushed by Tanguskas and IGLA infantries in every fucking bush.