THQ announces working on 'company of heroes'

[carbondioxide]

I posted this also on GR.org

THQ just had their financial earnings conference call. It was grim. Below are the highlights. As for COH, no mention at all of a COH2 nor even Relic. Most of the focus of the call was on the broader restructuring plan. The outlook is also pretty horrific.

* THQ cut its FY12 (Mar-2012) Revenue forecast to $800-820M and they also expect a Net Loss of approx -$110 to -$120M.
* THQ currently has cash of $48M, but they expect this will go to $25M by the end of their fiscal year (March). Cash is dwindling rapidly
* THQ now expects FY13 (Mar-2013) revenues to approx be "half" the level of FY12. This is approx $400M. They are shrinking the revenue base dramatically
* the uDraw game was an utter disaster. This game came in -$100M below plan and was the main driver that led to the restructuring. The Kids games also came in -$25M below plan and they have totally exited all of this business
* THQ title slate for FY13 now as follows: Darksiders2, South Park RPG, WWE, Metro Last Light, and Devil's Third.
* THQ title slate for FY14 now as follows: Turtle Rock game, Warhammer Dark Millenium MMO, iNSane, Homefront2, Patrice Desilet's game, and 4 other unannounced titles
* If there is a COH2, its maybe one of these "unannounced" games and it won't come out until FY14 at the earliest
* I'm not sure THQ can survive that long. They are burning cash rapidly and they will only have $25M by March. If the game slate they have for FY13 don't sell and are profitable, THQ won't be around long enough to finish their FY14 title slate
* You have to believe Darksiders 2 and SouthPark are hits or else this company will be gone....

[BoDyBaG2224]

I've mentioned this on several other sites. THQ, for a lack of a better word is fucked. I don't understand how everyone read into that previous announcement so far as saying that COH2 is in development.

IMO, THQ misused Relic, the RTS market is a small one, and COH when it was release in 2006 was spectacular. THQ should have funded Relic to make more RTS and RTT games, but instead they have them make Space Marine, and while that universe is something that Relic is king of, it is not a RTS and to try and compete in the flooded shooter market was not a good idea.

THQ just doesn't have a clear focus. They announce they are leaving the kids/casual/movie game market, yet still back udraw (unless i'm going to be able to draw the bullet holes in the enemy I have no use for this), have partnered with some guy that has something to do with Hellboy, and have partnered with Mattel as well. So they may not be developing the casual games, but it sure seems like they are going to publish them (ie. throw money at them).


Also fun fact, COH/40,000K are IP rights of THQ not Relic, so if Relic was to be sold off they technically could not make any of those games without buying the rights from THQ.

[Shaitan]

They did also mention 2 currently unnannounced titles for 2013 btw, CoH2 could come at that time.

[BoDyBaG2224]

I'm thinking FY 2014, since it says the unannounced titles are company owned IP games. This is assuming they don't collapse at the end of this year.

[Akranadas]

I don't think THQ is in the position to make COH2 at this time. I think Relic would be better suited being put to other in-THQ products

[Imperial Dane]

Well the CoH IP would be the easier one to get around.. Just do another WW2 RTS. Anyways, let's not get too hasty about THQ and their end.

Though it does look a bit tiresome that CoH 2 could potentially first be out in 2014. Would mean 8 years or so since CoH was released in the first place.

@Akranadas: And what would these products be ? I think CoH 2 would be an excellent choice personally. Partly because not many other strategy games can muster such an active playerbase after 6 years.

[Akranadas]

Company of Heroes, while a solid title that was praised by critics is available on 1 system out of 3, by 2013-2014 we could be seeing the Next generation of Xbox and playstations, as well as the Wii U. THQ is in dire need for cash flow, producing Company of Heroes 2 will not give them a steady cash flow as its a PC exclusive, and couple that with potential piracy. I mean, if I was on the THQ board of directors, I would tell Relic to go make Space Marine 2 or something else that can be marketed to all platforms rather than work on COH2 purely from a financial stand point.

[Koki]

You have to believe Darksiders 2 and SouthPark are hits or else this company will be gone....

And Metro: Last Light. Though of the three, I'm afraid only SP RPG can bring in real buck, especially if they Steam it.

They announce they are leaving the kids/casual/movie game market, yet still back udraw (unless i'm going to be able to draw the bullet holes in the enemy I have no use for this), have partnered with some guy that has something to do with Hellboy, and have partnered with Mattel as well.

THQ made uDraw, so it would be pointless to back out now after pumping so much cash into it, that's what Mattel deal presumably is for(it's last year news anyway). And Hellboy is hardly casual/kids area.

[Imperial Dane]

@Akranadas: Potential piracy is everywhere, consoles included, no point in getting into that. and considering that CoH has a more stable userbase than games like total war for which we see reasonably frequent releases, i can't help but imagine that there must be a sizable userbase for CoH 2 ready to purchase. I wouldn't underestimate the PC gaming market. What you're suggesting is what THQ already tried and failed miserably at. Besides the thing you're suggesting is what they're already doing with Darksiders 2 for starters. And also remember that Relic has several teams, the CoH team, the DoW team, and at one point also the space marine team. And apparently THQ is NOT asking for another space marine from what i've heard. So clearly they are trying to push through with CoH, rather why they mentioned it as a core franchise i'd think.

Also THQ has two unnannounced core titles for 2013 as well. CoH 2 could probably be amongst those.

[Akranadas]

Imperial Dane, I don't think you quite understand what I am saying. THQ is circling the drain in terms as a company, they need a hit game that is going to ship units quickly, putting money into PC exclusive RTS based on World War 2 is not going to help them get out of those circumstances. The PC gaming market is strong, but you also have to look at the fact that 2013 and 2014 are two years away and we've already of whispers of the Xbox 720 and Wii U this year so to not have at least 1 game ready for those systems would hurt THQ more than it would to not go through with COH 2. There very well could be a sizeable user base for COH2 when it gets released, but those numbers (being a niche RTS WW2 market) are not going to help THQ get out of the hole its in, so either THQ pushes through with CoH 2 and we get a chopped down version of what could have been (due to cost cutting) or THQ/Relic put it on the back burner for a couple of years (won't hurt in the long term) and focus on software for the Wii U, 360, 720 and PS3.


I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see Company of Heroes 2, I'm saying if I was the CEO of THQ I would tell Relic make a console game again, do something that is going to sell multiple units across multiple platforms.

[Imperial Dane]

Trouble is "that hit game" is what got them into that sort of trouble in the first place. And you also seem to think that Relic is their only studio at the moment and the only game they have under development. Rather what THQ is doing is to build several strong franchises, that is. They're not trying to rely on one hit game (i bloody well hope not) but is rather hoping to deliver several games to sort of stabilize things.

I mean look at the line-up. Metro 2034, that south park game, they've also got something under way from the fellows that made left 4 dead. in fact. They've got a variety of things going on. Plus they've got crytek working on Homefront 2. So instead of trying to force Relic into that sort of console line-up. They're probably going to try and do what Relic is good at. RTS games. And i don't think WW2 rts is quite as niche as you'd like to believe. You might be thinking of WW2 Simulations. But an RTS of CoH calibre ? I think that could have a larger appeal than what you might think. Never mind that i'm quite sure there is a large user-base waiting for a sequel to CoH 2 anyways. Something which could give a bit of cash as well to THQ.

[Akranadas]

Look mate, THQ can't even afford to Complete Dark Millennium Online a Sci-Fi MMO based on Warhammer 40,000 which would have bound to been more attractive to players. It's clear that THQ is looking to get games out that can sell well and cost less to make, an RTS does not sell as well as we all wish to believe, CoH isn't Starcraft, Warcraft, Command and Conquer or Dawn of War. It's a World War 2 based RTS and that fact alone reduces its auidence, regardless of how good the game would be, I know some avid RTS gamers who dislike COH for the sole reason of it being WW2.

[Imperial Dane]

An MMO is quite different from an RTS. And again, what i am seeing is not backing you up. CoH is being pulled to the forefront, so something is coming. And while an RTS might not be a CoD, that doesn't mean it can't provide a profit. Otherwise i'm pretty sure we wouldn't be seeing games like the total war series, a series of which the latest installment currently only has a fraction of the playerbase that CoH has. Actively that is.

Also on a slightly more curious note. Has anyone noted that 4v4 AT has been added to automatch ?

[Mordakii]

Have to agree with Akr, THQ are bleeding money, if they had CoH2 or a new DoW game ready for 2012/13 they would be announcing it to boost stock confidence. The only thing I can see coming out of this is a rushed DoW2 expansion or even a rushed CoH expansion. If not then I am not sure what THQ see as the benefit of keeping either of them a secret as it is going to die with them if they are not careful.

[carbondioxide]

Piracy is a killer for PC games indeed. That's why I have said the only justification in making COH2 would be if they make it a Free-2-play persistent RTS/MMO hybrid something akin to League of Legends. Investors are looking for digital online revenue not a $50 box retail sale. The successful model is now having a microtransaction business that generates revenue consistently over time not just in a short release window after launch. COH2 has to be something like COHO with maybe League of Legends like monetization. Otherwise, it makes no sense to make a PC only standalone retail box game in a niche RTS genre.

[Sabre Man]

Consoles also have issues, like resale of used games, which is hurting developers and publishers badly.

I think developing games for consoles is very risky at the moment when you consider how long it takes to develop a game. Making games for the next generation of consoles requires getting to know the new hardware and when the game is released there may not be that many console owners as players would be split between generations and systems.

In any case Saints Row seems to be doing very well, so hopefully THQ will survive.

[grahamwookie]

http://www.companyofheroes.com The site is down at the moment but will we see any news of CoH2?

[GeoffS]

We have three separate threads speculating on the future of CoH, not to mention threads speculating about Relic/THQ in The Gamer's Lounge and GD. It's starting to get too confusing for my poor little brain, so I think we'll close two of the threads here and just stick to this one.

[Imperial Dane]

@Grahamwookie: From what Relic has said. No. It is just a server move.. Albeit one that isn't going very well atm

[whatsleft]

rather than all this doom and gloom, relic is a well known studio with a pretty good portfolio, the moment THQ folds and releases them, they would probably be bought over quickly by anyone who recognize their talents and has the capital tofund them.

[borgeater]

Whatsleft i'd consider that to be doom and gloom, just imagine the joys of EA ownership.

[mandead]

Terrible PR however you look at it. Is it considered good business practice to let a once popular game die a slow, painful death only to (possibly) announce a sequel at the last minute?

[roflmao]

Well the thing is that Company of Heroes wasn't really that popular. It was met with lackluster sales. No one doubts that it's an incredible game given the fact that it received multiple awards and was praised through the roof, but for whatever reasons, it just didn't sell that well.

There are numerous variables here we don't know about that affect THQ's strategy to get out of the rut they're in. We know Relic produces great games that sell well, but we don't know how much it costs to produce the games. My uninformed guess is that THQ only gets a small-to-moderate profit from Relic games. They're a guaranteed cash cow, but not exactly a business driver.

For all we know THQ might grab Relic and put them to work on some unrelated game with other branches of the company. Bottom line is that no one really knows.

[Imperial Dane]

@Mandead: That all depends on Perspective. How would it look if they announced it but had nothing to show ? or what they had to show wasn't really what you liked ? I mean it's easy to just sit there and say it's bad PR to say nothing when in reality you're not really considering any other possible situations. The game is not dying a slow and painful death, it's as stable as it's always been. And Relic is supporting it still. Mentioning of casters, sponsoring the SNF.

@Roflmao: Well it has something going for it since it can still present a strong userbase and who knows the latent size of it ?

And well, we do sort of know since THQ has come out with CoH being one of their core franchises. I don't really think they've given up and might be hoping for a sequel to be able to get some money in. I suspect that is one of the reasons for all those sales they've been having as of late.

What i suspect is going on is THQ basically preparing a sort of marketing Blitz, that is, they want everything ready, trailer, screenshots and a plan for info and goodies along the road to ensure as much possible hype and so on and thus ensure a good profit from CoH.

[mandead]

The game is not dying a slow and painful death...

That's a fairly disingenuous statement; at the very least it's inaccurate.

What i suspect is going on is THQ basically preparing a sort of marketing Blitz, that is, they want everything ready, trailer, screenshots and a plan for info and goodies along the road to ensure as much possible hype and so on and thus ensure a good profit from CoH.

I envy your optimism.

[Gorb]

What statistics do you have to prove the hypothesis that the game is

a) dying, and

b) dying slowly (insofar as a game population can die "slowly")

[CommissarRezail]

So what if coh2 is coh2 modern warfare LOL jk aside. I really hope its coh2, have more armies, and sub faction doctrines. Well the announcement of what ever they are doing suppose to be this month? maybe.

[Savage Noble]

The Company of Heroes playerbase is far form dead, at least in Europe, but it might get to the point of becoming a "nche" game. That isn't the problem though, Paradox Interactive's Heart of Iron franchise is a super niche game that is sort of the video game equivalent of simulation boardgames, yet they have 3 installations so far. Ofcourse, Hearts of Iron I imagine is much cheaper to develop than a sequel to Company of Heroes, but I imagine doing CoH "right" with cost around the same as Empire: Total War and other grapically intensive games. I am not aware of THQ's current financial situation but I think it will happen at somepoint but the question is 3 years from now or 10?

[mandead]

By dead I meant ever-dwindling player numbers (I'm going by both Steam stats and the average number of servers I see when I play my mod online, which is non-Steam) and a total lack of communication from those at the top. Without the 'well, you're not a game developer!' riposte; if I were a game developer I would certainly do a better job of keeping my customers informed as to what my plans were for one of my best-known series.

[Gorb]

What kind of scale do you attribute "ever-dwindling", though? I'm pretty sure CoH still has a larger userbase than DoW II (though it pains me to say it); Retribution sits at around 2,500 at peak activity - doesn't CoH still have several thousand active?

The game is old, complaining about how the game is dying is somewhat counterproductive. You should be praising the fact that it still has an active playerbase and (to a lesser extent) online community.

With regards to keeping the customers informed; if there is nothing to reveal, then there is nothing to say. Or aren't you familiar with how fanbases take a single line attributed to a developer and quote it ad-infinitum, out-of-context, til the stars themselves burn out as a way of keeping themselves occupied?

[Imperial Dane]

Considering the fact that CoH can beat much newer game in terms of people still playing it. Well i can't see the issue there. games like shogun 2 which i'd imagine were pretty big successes have player numbers rather lower than CoH atm. Thing is. the player numbers for CoH are VERY stable. The usual fluctuation being a positive one due to people buying it on sale and such. Otherwise, there's no huge change. It's the at about the same level as about 3 years ago i believe.

As for information. It's all about actually handling said information and knowing that people will want more. In that sense it's better to just wait until you're just ready and then have a lot of information and other goodies to reveal, thus keeping the entire period from announcement to game actually being playable as short as possible, thus also minimizing the people getting bored underway and moving on to something else.

And finally and most importantly. Relic has no power in this. It's all up to THQ, the guys who post the money into it. I mean you can say all you want about what you would do if you were a game developer. But if you were to upset the publisher, you might find yourself in a bit of trouble getting funding for the next game...

[Savage Noble]

The thing about RTS fanbases (and the PC fan-base in general) is that they are fiercely loyal, patient and would rather play the old version of the game they love over a brand new different RTS. Only FPS franchises die after years of no sequels, and even they they get reborn many years later.

PC develops known their fanbases and THQ/Relic know that the CoH community and interest isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[[]inveigle[]]

A games "community" is what keep it alive. SDK tools, the ability to mod and alike are key elements to making a great title. Just look at Minecraft, STALKER, Battlefield 2 (not 3), Skyrim and of course our beloved CoH for examples. That being stated, look now at the decline of Battlefield 3, it has no current mod tools or capabilities. It is the community that sets the standard that the companies must reach to advance the core essence of gaming. Without free-form customization we get... Playmobile instead of the glory that is LEGO. Sorry for the lengthy speech.

[Imperial Dane]

Well just a slightly interesting detail from a post over at the official forums on the research done for CoH.
Including a few images from their research library

Now why is that of interest you might ask ? Well besides books on Normandy for the Americans and commonwealth and market garden. Well there's also some books on a front we haven't seen yet... The Italian front. Books on Cassino, the 8th army in Italy and the black devil brigade which mostly operated in Italy.

Now i'm not going to claim that it's confirmed proof that CoH 2 will take place in Italy.. But i will say it's pretty interesting considering that Market Garden only got on book :P (good one though). I mean it could have been research for another possible expansion for all i know or something else.. But it is noteworthy and interesting if you ask me. I mean the possibility of Anzio and Cassino is interesting. Panzer IIIs, IVs, Elephants, Hornisses, and Shermans would be on a more equal footing since heavy armour for the germans would be more limited and the Panzer III more prominent than the Panzer IV.

Obviously no guarantees and all. but i can't help but wonder

[Celution]

Dane, I like your way of thinking, but about those books goes a bit too far tbh.

[Imperial Dane]

Well it is speculation. But one has to argue that if there are books about Italy in a research library.. Well, research into an italian front must have happened at some stage For all we know it could have been for CoH 1 or it could be for CoH 2. We don't know

But i figured it would be interesting and break things up a bit As i do think Italy could be quite viable for the reasons that i mentioned. I mean Panthers would be as rare as Tigers so probably doctrinal call ins.

[Savage Noble]

You never know, CoH2 might not even be WWII (i'll wash my mouth out with soap, I know). I would like to see the Italian campaign, but North Africa pretty much has the whole package for an RTS on the scale of CoH.

[Imperial Dane]

... not sure on what logic you're running on there. Because that could be said about every front in WW2 more or less. :P

[Shaitan]

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...ger-a-mmo.aspx

Bad news for Relic and Vigil employees, mixed news for Dark Millenium, depending on what you wanted Dark Millenium to be.

Another mention of Relic working on CoH.

[Imperial Dane]

Yeah. Can't really say this is hugely great news. Although i imagine Relic took the least layoffs. Still not good in general. We'll have to watch the situation as it evolves.

[LoneWolf666]

39 layoffs can potentially be a death blow, actually, depending on who exactly was fired.

So the potential CoH or DoW sequel will likely be rushed, all corners cut, short on budget and manpower... And it's not even Relic's fault. Goddamn.

Hopefully THQ will not screw these projects over, but they may have no choice.

[Imperial Dane]

I don't think the CoH and DoW teams were affected. Remember, they had people working on DMO, most likely those were the people hit.

[Gorb]

EgonSpengler and Pulse.r, along with several others, would probably disagree with you there, Dane.

However, I would imagine whatever CoH work they have in the works is probably still progressing.

[Imperial Dane]

Well how am i to know ? I don't have the full lists. All i know is 39 got laid off. My guess would be the ones who worked on Dark Millenium. Although recognizing those names my guess is it's DoW taking the immediate hit. So if i was to theorize they're working full steam at the moment and then switching all available manpower as soon as possible over to DoW.

[Gorb]

Dark Millenium was a Vigil project.

Ergo, the Relic layoffs are not connected to Dark Millenium. Given that they're a completely separate developer.

[Shaitan]

Relic is working on Dark Millenium in part.

[Shuma]

Relic was working on the MMO alongside with Vigil:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...g-with-40k-mmo

[Imperial Dane]

From what i know Relic was actually helping Vigil and providing some manpower for it.

[TheWeasel]

Froggod, you've never played one of the great mods of EiR and OMG then. Base building ruins games.

[Gorb]

@Shaitan and Shuma: thankee, I stand (well, sit) corrected.

Regardless, I doubt the entire DoW II dev team was working on DM(O). And that appears to be whom has been laid off.