Can't we just remove americans? Or at least get to untick them for random match?

[psykopatsak]

Since the americans are just a speedbump to be overcome in the early game for the axis players, alternatively a mechanism to stop the game just when it gets fun, as the americans are just completly rediclous early game (mid if you were superior early game) and completly useless late game, I think we should remove them, alternatively replace them with something that's actually fun to play and also viable throughout the game...

Is a smiley needed here?

On a more serious note: Can't we get to untick them when starting a random match? I want to play everything else then americans, but I can't really decide.


And the only real sollution is learning to play that mass-infantry self gibbing misfit piece of capping/OP with rush and late game cannonfodder.

So therefore I have put up a replay vs a very good wehrmacht player who did very good, and if it wasn't for my allergy to snipers, I would have loved this game. (now I just have to be content with enjoying it in hindsight) Nice chap too!

Psyko2.zip

Constructive critisicm welcome.

[enigmaSMASH]

Hi there!

First of all i have to say that your oppenent was not "very good" but he was better than you. You should be dead earlier. He had many idle units and resources too to defeat you earlier. I think he had fun with gloating your incompetence to counter his tactic. I do understand your frustration. Yes it is really hard to beat vetted wehr units when you are outcapped. Americans are not incompetent to fight wehr but you are. At leats in this replay.
I am not sure that unticking Amis could help you anyway. Your playstyle resembles playstyle of AI in many ways.

1) Watch your replay again and analyze what you did wrong and what should be better in future matches
2) When you lose on one part of map try your luck on another (BTW one of tips on map loading screen) - do not send same type units to same part of map again and again when you know you will die there again. Or at least try other path. You should try to attack rather top part instead of well defended bottom part
3) As you know you must play agressively as US and push hard from beginning. Wehr has more defensive philosophy - lock decent part of map and hold it until stronger vetted units come. You can't allow this to them. Focus on fuel - you'll force your enemy to use infantry and thanks to your fuel resources you can produce vehicles. Early M8 or T17 can save the day then. Sure with inf supporting them.
4) MG42 in building doesn't mean end of fight in that part of map. You should practise flanking more. MG team will die or will be forced to retreat.
5) Your support units like mg, mortar, sniper could help you too. Hate enemy snipers? Use your own. No WSC? Use supply drop as airborne - you'll get fuel+muni and useful weapons. US MG in building with AP rounds can destroy annoying Puma well or at least force it to run away. Pin down incoming inf and with mortar force them to die or retreat.
6) Have you seen defensive mortar barrage killing whole riflemen or airborne team when you were capturing enemy point? You know he is on defensive doctrine. Avoid this barrage with next capturing.
7) When your paratroopers die and drop their great RRs take them with rifles. They will be very useful against pumas. You gave them to your enemy instead.
8) Your Sherman should do more than explode alone near wher base. Save it nexttime as an eye in your head.
9) Use more mines, tanktraps, wire

[psykopatsak]

Thak you for your time and points.

Yes, my playstyle is "God not americans, bah I'll just focus on getting the map and win by an early T17". I'll even net out a postive win/loss ration on this.
(By unticking amis, I wouldn't have to play them, and hence solve my problem :P )

My problem about flanking that MG was the supporting sniper(s), that picked off my flanking pioneers and riflemen. As I said, I hate snipers, I even hate using them myself (that's the little idiocity that I'll stand by no matter what). I would have preferred a mortar here, so probably a WSC should have been built - the MGs are quite useful too.

My biggest problem was those pumas. A complete lack of decent hand held antitank made me go airborne, and my close up fuel and local VP kept me in that area of the map, even though I as a PE player prefers extreme mobility. However, in this case, I don't really see how changing focus to the other side of the map would have given me any advantage, other than trying to keep those munitions. He wasn't locked down on one side of the map, he had plenty of mobile unites that could easily change focus to whatever I did. A move such as you describe is basically a tradeoff, both players will have to ask themselves, do I benefit from giving up one part of the map for the other? Either the sides changes owner, or the site of the battle is changed. The way I find the americans to work, is either you get both sides with their juicy fuel depots early, and hence win, or you loose them and loose, more so than any other - and especially the Wehrmacht can fight on with relatively scarce fuel supplies.

However, again here, puma. I've never really cared much for the M8, but maybe it's useful? As axis, I never have any problems with those, unless I screwed up enough to deserve it, but then it's my own fault.

How do you avoid the defensive barrage? You do hear them call out for artillery, but if you don't manage to retreat in time, it goes BOOM. It's not avoidable in the way the PE booby traps are avoidable (sidestepping the explosions), else I've missed something.

My sherman was too late to do anything as soon as that panther showed up among those shreks. I diddn't really care by that part of the game, and played on just for sheer stubbornness. But seeing just how many units he had idle across the map... I'll take that part of "good opponent" back.

[Susurrus]

There are two extremely good counters to Pumas which should be used in conjunction with one another:

- Mines
- Ignoring them

Defensive pumas are a pain, but if your opponent whacks out a puma, and you've got no counter, put mines on your side of the map - he's likely to use it in offence, and you can immobilise (or if you double up on mines) maybe even destroy it.

Pumas, like other ACs have a limited window. If you can push through them to get to Shermans, you've basically won, so try doing that.

[hecubus23]

My problem about flanking that MG was the supporting sniper(s), that picked off my flanking pioneers and riflemen. As I said, I hate snipers, I even hate using them myself (that's the little idiocity that I'll stand by no matter what). I would have preferred a mortar here, so probably a WSC should have been built - the MGs are quite useful too.

The first time you encountered an MG in that building, there was no sniper supporting it. You had two rifle squads closing from different angles, but when one got hit by the MG you didn't attack with the flanking one. Also, it seemed like you were building jeeps as a knee-jerk reaction to snipers, even later in the game when there were a lot of other supporting units around the sniper easily capable of taking out the jeep. It can reveal in a small radius but on its own it's a sitting duck.

A mortar would have been a great help, indeed, but you didn't need a WSC for it since you went Airborne. Supply drops would have helped both fuel and munitions situations and given you free mortars and MGs you can easily crew with your riflemen.

My biggest problem was those pumas. A complete lack of decent hand held antitank made me go airborne,

Sticky bombs. You could have gone for them as soon as the pumas appeared, but instead you went for grenades that you barely used. A timely AT gun drop could have made a difference as well.

How do you avoid the defensive barrage? You do hear them call out for artillery, but if you don't manage to retreat in time, it goes BOOM. It's not avoidable in the way the PE booby traps are avoidable (sidestepping the explosions), else I've missed something.

Once you know it's out there, approach capping the same way you would an opponent who uses Propaganda War. Send two squads toward what you want to capture, but keep one of them back. When the first squad triggers the artillery, retreat it and wait for the shelling to end, then move in the other to capture. What it really comes down to, though, is keeping him cut off from his munitions. It's a costly ability, and he was able to spam it because he had very high munitions income. Approach an Americans vs. Wehrmacht game the same way you would a PE game, be very aggressive with your capturing very early on. Instead of capturing low points near your base, start by capturing as close to your opponent as you can, get them connected, and backfill with engineers or wounded squads later. Each point you take is that much more time he has to spend trying to get it back, not only keeping the resources out of his hands but giving you opportunity to harass his capturing units.

One of my biggest gripes with your larger approach was building the supply yard and then purchasing the first upgrade. In my experience, you have two effective choices to make once you get to that first 50 fuel: build the supply yard and then go for a motor pool (or possibly straight to tank depot, depending on how confident you are in being able to hold on to your fuel income), or hold out for 60 and get the BAR upgrade. Building the supply yard and then purchasing the first SY upgrade doesn't do a lot for you at that stage except waste fuel. You will reduce your support cost, yes, but the veterancy-gain bonus won't help much because you've done nothing to improve your riflemen squads' chances of winning engagements. Either armor or BARs can dramatically change the course of the game if they show up early enough, and can go a long way in helping you hold on to your fuel income, so buying the SY upgrade a little bit later won't be such a big hit.

My sherman was too late to do anything

Mainly because your manpower income was crippled by reinforcing 5-6 rifle and airborne squads every couple minutes. It could have been out a good bit sooner if you'd sat on a few wounded squads and built up enough to buy the Sherman. And why not, the riflemen certainly weren't getting anything done for you at that point.

[Mantaray]

im not trying to be funny here... but coudlnt this all be solved with hellcat spam?

[enigmaSMASH]

>> hecubus23: thank you man! You saved my time by explaining it ;-)

Additionaly i would like to repeat what i wrote above.. Early Puma can be stopped or hold away from the building by US MG team AP rounds. When Puma attacks then use AP rounds for 35(?) muni and Puma (or all other light vehicles incl Marder III) can say goodbye or must drive away for repairs. Sure its good to support this building and deny possibility to be flanked by that Puma (mines, rifles with stickies). Poor counter but useful when you have nothing in that critical time.
No need for Weapons support center to be built - your supply drop includes 1x mg + 1x mortar + fuel + muni for 100 manpower.

>> Psyko: there were two situations with MG42 in building.. 1st was without sniper. 2nd attempt was with him. You had 2 or 3 rifle squads and 2 flame engies. 1 sniper + 1 mg cannot beat them when you'll use them right way. Problem was in wrong flanking. All your men were together pinned down and killed with help of sniper. Flank does mean that first team is attracting MG42 and second does flank in secure distance coming from other side of house. There was sniper too - he should be forced to retreat that way. One nade (or flame) into building and... its yours. And it was possible in your situation.
Key to succes in your game was to make enemy fuel-hungry and produce vehicles early game instead of upgrading supply center. M8 Greyhound is not strong but really dangerous when occured early game. Wehr inf must purchase expensive shreks and cant use mortar def barrage for 125 muni. And it can be avoided because of smoke. When you know that your opponent is using this let start capturing and move away immediately (not retreat!) wait in secure distance and cap again. Cooldown time will allow it now.

and to your late Sherman... you had 57mm AT gun too. Rifles with stickies + Airborne with RRs.. I think that everything was not lost.

Lets try it!
cheers!

[psykopatsak]

Ah, I see now. Yep, the first time, I should have manged better vs that MG. Well, actually the other times too, but I messed up...

Thank you [EDIT:] hecubus23 about the supply yard bit. I'm not very good at those "behind the scenes" stuff when it comes to the US, I only know what I want to see in the field and what I want them to do. Interesting about the capping too, I will definitely try it.

And about sticky-bombs... Never been impressed, they seem just a good way to get your riflemen rushing out of cover getting kited to death. I'm don't exaclty remember if or when I went stickeys here, but the range is too short, and all opponents are just too aware of them to get close with a vehicle, the PE PIV possibly excluded.

Now, I'll just have to wait until I get another hard (for me) game like this, so far it's only been more or less roflstomps and some random guy dropping as soon as the game starts...

Thank you for your help!

[Susurrus]

I think you've given me undeserved credit.

Sticky bombs are terribad against a guy who is good at microing pumas. I play much higher levelled games, but I never buy them.

You can still trick the other guy into retreating though, if you rush rifles at his puma. He'll assume you have stickies, and run away.

[psykopatsak]

OH, fixed.

And psychological warfare, I like it!

[hecubus23]

I'll take my drubbing on the stickies, next to useless against good micro, but I do agree they (or the threat of them) can be used to chase a Puma off if nothing else. Or, if you've managed to cripple it with a mine, they can finish it off nicely. Also remember that you can stick them to a PAK.

Also, I'll amend my decision-tree-at-50-fuel slightly. Grenades, used properly, can be very effective in briefly turning the tide as well, and can be considered for your first fuel purchase. Generally, though, it'd be a situation where your fuel income is high and not immediately threatened, and you'll be able to move on to BAR or SY/MP very soon anyway.

As a sidebar, I'd love to play some games with/against some folks here. I've never seen a way to add a person as a friend in game without seeing them in-game first and clicking their name, but if anyone knows and would like to add me, I'm the same name in-game. I don't like playing against random strangers, so I mainly play against AI, or sometimes my cousin and his friends, though they're much newer to the game and have all but refused to play against me any more.

[psykopatsak]

Just enter chat and write /addfriend [friends name here]. Feel free to add me if you want.

[Susurrus]

Again, I play at fairly high levels, so you need fairly good micro to pull this off, BUT:

- I never buy BARs. I always buy grenades. Used effectively, grenades are better than BARs for dealing damage. Furthermore, they require micro to avoid, and getting early grenades often gets a squad wipe because noone expects them. Against PE in particular they are ferocious.

The extra 20 fuel not spent on BARs is also useful for making that first hellcat a sherman.

[psykopatsak]

Again, I play at fairly high levels, so you need fairly good micro to pull this off, BUT:

- I never buy BARs. I always buy grenades. Used effectively, grenades are better than BARs for dealing damage. Furthermore, they require micro to avoid, and getting early grenades often gets a squad wipe because noone expects them. Against PE in particular they are ferocious.

The extra 20 fuel not spent on BARs is also useful for making that first hellcat a sherman.

I played a lot back in 2.4 or something. Then I started playing now again, and gets WTFpwned by these grenades. I was so suprised that I even put out a thread here asking what had happened. Way too good now that they hit dead on everytime unless you're constantly moving IMO, them wiping entire squads is just ridiculous, In the club of laming run and the super shotgun of death stuart.

On a side note, this constant microing of stuff that shouldn't be necessary or a viable tactic makes me want to puke. A lot of these foul play, mine drop by M8 at PAK spawn point, stickies at PAK, parking ketten on that small bridge on the hochwald forest (great, just what I need, another reason never to basic match...), blocking building entrances with wire/tank traps, playing cat and mouse with sniper hunter jeep/motorbike in a building. Now I'm forced to babysit my squads every millisecond, to make sure my squads don't sit and poke a grenade thrown at them wondering what it is too! I mean, where's the fun in that bother?

By now, my list of stuff I hate has grown too large to put in my sig, so I'll just have to leave it the way it is...

[Susurrus]

Grenades have always been good, it's just that noone ever used them before because they had a chance of missing. I used to use them all the time, and they missed sometimes. When they didn't they were still just as good.

[psykopatsak]

There's a difference. When they diddn't hit square on every time, they much more rarely took out entire squads the way they do now if you miss to see one being thrown. Now they're so effective that people base their entire strategy around getting one or two grenade hits early game.

[LTVolk]

The way to use the nades correctly is against the squads in cover. In the open, they tend to be more spread out and getting a squad wipe requires a lot of luck.

My strategy when I played against Whermacht was a very agressive push with early nades followed by BARs and Demo Charges if oppenent decided to Bunker up. Mines were used as the soft counter against Pumas, while I bypassed Motor Pool and went straight for Shermans that were used in a defensive support role. Most of the time I'd go Airborne to get the AT option while waited for the Shermans.

Against PE, Say No to Klaus worked pretty well for me most of the time.

[German Steel!]

Then let me show you how to play the Americans without grenades Martin... muhahaha

[psykopatsak]

Then let me show you how to play the Americans without grenades Martin... muhahaha

Ah, with pleasure sensei ! I just got back from skiing, will sleep now. I'll get in touch with you later, my good friend.