[3.19.1] Megarumbla needs to be looked at closely...

[ph03nIXx]

It's been a while back that I posted my last replay related to the Mek's megarumbla...

Back then, it was about the megarumbla doin repeated knockback and stun on retreating units, keeping them on their asses until the effect wears off AND only affecting enemy units - making it a pretty nasty retreat wipe machine when timed right or at least forcing a retreat since you will loose your stuff caught in the AoE since you can't retreat out of it.

While this point still stands - and I think I can live with that since the casting time is pretty goddamn long -, in the game 0rph3u5 and I just played, another point was made obivous to me that makes the megarumbla even more a case of "F**K U, DO SOMETHIN ABOUT THIS ALREADY" IMHO.

You people might want to have a look at the attached replay: At 15:23 and 19:38, the mek destroys a complete genfarm just by megarumblin. This takes 13 seconds total... and you can't do a thing about it. This ain't obvious from the tooltip, though I just readt that at least the DoW Wiki lists it as just doin that: "damages buildings".

The inquisitors Promethium Strike was nerfed vs buildings so it stops doin exactly what the megarumbla does here. Combine this with inate teleport ability AND totally nullifying any units caught in the AoE serving them on a silver dish for squad wipes, there has to be done something about the rumbla.

I know its a 200/60 T3 wargear item, so it comes at a time where gen bashing isn't as important anymore as in the early stages of the game, but still, I think with both of this effects, it's too powerful. I therefore propose:

- Remove / Lower dmg vs buldings like for promethium strike

- Additionally remove effect on retreating units - making it similar to Sorcerers Chains of Torment
- Or make it affect friendly units too - making it similar to WSE's Phase Shift though still more powerful since ranged units or artillery may still dakka away and blast enemy units apart.

Both changes to the ability should be accompanied by a price decrease, the "Chains" change obivously making it way cheaper than the "Phase Shift" change.

Replay can be found here

Comments?

[0rph3u5]

T3 wargear item,it comes at a time where gen bashing isn't as important anymore as in the early stages of the game,

I have to disagree with you here on the subject that being t3 automatically removes the need to gen raid... esspecially when combined with fast-tech the MR gives the MB an unfair advantage by suppressing the enemy economy singlehandly - powerstarving any enemy in t2
(In the replay submitted we were lucky the MB had to carry the HT instead of teching away)

[Codex]

A Chaos Lord can do the same thing with LTGB which costs around the same and comes a tier earlier, according to Necro. I've never had such abuse laid on me, nor have I intended on inflicting it on others. But this ability isn't really unique, although I agree that it's horrible to be subjected to it and MR needs a look at.

[ph03nIXx]

LTGB can kill whole gen farms? Haven't seen that until now... mkay...

My problem isn't that it kills gen farms really - though promethium strike got its dmg vs buildings reduced to almost zero because it could put down farms in one strike.
What's causing me a headache is that even though for 200/60 and T3, it's not only doin that but ALSO is the only wargear item left - IIRC - that does directly negate retreat... no matter what you do, even if you retreat right at the start of the effect - not animation, but effect - you units won't move anywhere but bounce around until the effect wears off... leaving them to die to the Meks melee units that are not affected by the KB/Stun wave.

We had all KB / Stun on retreat effects removed continously over the lifetime of DoW2. This is not only KB / Stun but KB / Stun again and again until the effect ends. It's way stronger than similar stuff we have in the game - see above - and in that possibly OP in itself. Killing gen farms is just icing on the cake...

[Malachi]

I pretty much totally agree with the OP. More in the favor of making it not working on retreating units completely. The fact that there are other abilities like LTGB that are also apparently broken is no argument for not fixing Megarumblah. To the contrary, if LTGB can wipe whole gen farms in a single cast, I think it should be looked at as well (it's not like it's an underperforming ability vs units or anything).

[Codex]

The fact that there are other abilities like LTGB that are also apparently broken is no argument for not fixing Megarumblah.

Agreed, just pointing out that this "kind" of ability needs to be looked at in general.

[ThunderHost]

I will second LTGB's ability to burn gens. Happens more and more often these days sadly. Probably popularized by replays somewhere.

[Ruzdreg]

At 15:23 and 19:38, the mek destroys a complete genfarm just by megarumblin.

This was never looked at?
I remember long, long ago, some time before the There Is Only War patch (1.4?) that this issues was brought up, as well as it being able to knock off half a base's HP. The damage against bases were reduced from what I remember, but it looks like after all these years and patches its effectiveness against gens were never altered.

[Arbit]

Removing knockback on retreat is fair, and so it toning down the building damage. The ability stuns in a large radius (enemies only) but the knockback is caused by ~10 mini-explosions that I think follow a set pattern. These are ability knockback and can do friendly fire, so it's entirely possible that you could knock down your own units and let retreating guys get away. But at any rate, there's really no reason for it to be ability knockback so get rid of it, I say. But... in return... maybe have it give the mek ~150 HP or so? A 200/60 T3 armor ought to give him a little HP.

I messed around with this recently and it "only" takes off about a 1/3 to a 1/4 of an HQ's HP, making it one of the most effective anti-HQ weapons. Still, the cooldown and energy requirements make ninja-destroying your opponent's HQ infeasible.

[Codex]

3 MEKS TELE AND MEGARUMBLAH SPAM!

(Joking)

(I hope)

[Arbit]

If you could coordinate it there's all sorts of broken stuff you could do in 3v3s. Something like 3xCL sticking together and doing LtGB in tandem would be roughly equivalent to a T3 nuke every 60 seconds or so. Think of the havoc you could wreak with 3x creeping barrages, or noxious clouds, ripper spam, etc.

Sounds like fun to me

[Zallis]

LTGB doesn't wipe out whole gen farms, generally speaking. If all 4 orbs hit a gen, then they can kill it, but in order to wipe out a whole gen farm, they'd have to be ridiculously close together and close to the node as well. The DoT, happily, doesn't hurt the buildings anymore.

[Codex]

So combine it with a bit of fire support. As I say, I haven't seen in in practice, but it sounds like it's a ridiculously effective gen bash for minimal effort, and how exactly does your opponent prevent this? Even if they don't wipe, are you going to dedicate troops to repairing these gens? It seems pretty lose-lose to me from the perspective of the victim.

[Malachi]

Um, you're pretty much arguing that damaging gens is IMBA cause you're gonna need to repair them? Or that the ability helps them get destroyed with support?

No, an ability one-shotting entire gen farms on a teleporting hero is different than an ability that sometimes, maybe, wipes some gens on a slow moving hero... eh?

[Codex]

No, I'm arguing that it gains too much for far too little investment. Usually in this game when someone is having an issue with "balance", you can advise, "retreat" or "move out of the AOE" or "don't blob" or "interrupt the ability" or whatever.

Unfortunately, the CL is very durable (especially with armor of the inferno!) and is immune to weapon knockback, making it very difficult to interrupt/prevent the ability. Ability-knockback can obviously be used but should I be forced to have a form of ability knockback in my arsenal to stop LTGB? Furthermore, gens aren't mobile and can't retreat, so if the guy is any good he'll be able to do a really fast gen bash, especially if he manages to catch my gens isolated or manages to win a fight.

On the other hand, consider FC battlecry. Effective counters are suppression and stuns among others, and the FC becomes less/completely ineffective respectively. Or consider a flamer rush. Jump troops or suppression teams can be used to prevent the tacs from gen bashing.

Going back to LTGB, let's say we don't have ability knockback. Do I need to commit troops to defending my gens? Probably I'll need more troops than your gen bash party to force you off, and if you get the LTGB off then all the worse for me. c.f. Section 10 of my guide, if I have to gather more troops to try to prevent a cheap gen bash with CSM+ LTGB then you can gain a map control advantage even if you don't actually strike, just threatening to.

Even Megarumblah is relatively more counterable than CL LTGB. It may be more potent, but as mentioned the armor doesn't give mekboy hp and can be focus fired relatively quickly. And LTGB comes a tier earlier.

If you still disagree I'll happily go online and experiment. Necro quit the game out of disgust at the cheapness of this strategy, so it must be quite good at least :P

[Zallis]

Well, you can certainly burn down a single gen, or heavily damage two that are close together (and leave your supporting units to get the rest). Essentially, you can guarantee a single gen is destroyed for almost no effort. By the time your CL retreats and gets back to the gen farm, he can use LTGB again and wreck another one, retreat, and laugh.

[ph03nIXx]

Okay, need to add something on top of the OP'ness already being discussed.

After having a game with mek myself yesterday, I noticed that the ingame tooltip for the megarumbla says "stuns vehicles".
I tried to test that in said game, but since I was busy trying to take down ATerms caught in the rumbla I didn't pay much attention to the Dread also caught in the effect.

So 0rph and I labbed it today - replay can be found in the thread with the other replay.

And yes, the effect stuns vehicles and disables vehicle abilities - in this case a BB and a Chimera.

So on top of wiping gen farms, catching units in retreat and making them immoble while not effecting your own troops it does ALSO disable vehicles for the duration.

Houston, we have a problem...

[Vintage]

The Mekboy is so easy to kill when using it though. It takes a very long time to start up and he is immobilized for its duration. The armor does not buff his health so he has his normal low default health pool. If he wants to time it with a jump he also needs to have full energy. I find it very easy to anticipate it and focus fire kill the Mek. The only change I would support is making it do less damage to generators. I'd say take their health down to half or three quarters. Completely wiping full health farms is OTT.

Also Codex if you are doing test games I'm your man. I'll play any match up for it.

[Buguba]

Also Codex if you are doing test games I'm your man. I'll play any match up for it.

I don't see why we need to do test games when we can just theory craft. Where are all those elitist douches that would pull up the game code all the time?

Oh wait.

[MasterBlaster]

Buguba
I couldnt agree more.

Like stating the mekboy is easy to kill.

Try killing the mekboy with just 2-3 other squads around him as IG before it activates.
Lovely IG scatter means the mekboy can take as little as 5% of the actual damage despite being focused fired.

Once you have tried that... no theory crafting mind you.

Work out what units IG has that can disrupt that aint easy to force off the field tier3.

[Arbit]

Yeah... are you aware that catachans do 70 ranged dps now, before upgrades? With the two sarges they do terminator style ranged damage, albeit at short range. IG should have no trouble shooting the mek down.