Sexism and other forms of bigotry in gaming.

[Black]

So, if you haven't heard about the furor over sexual harassment in the fighting game community caused by the Capcom web show Cross Assault, go read about it now and think about it. And think about your place in a community that is notorious for being filled with vicious young men who turn being not one of them into hateful slurs, from being a woman to being gay to being a minority and so on and so forth. Where do you stand in all of this? Where do we stand as a community in particular?

I almost forgot that there was a time in gaming where being such an asshole could get you banned from servers. I always played CS 1.6 in servers where hate speech was a ban-on-sight offense. But that was before mass online gaming with the likes of XBox Live and other services. Now, it's pretty much *accepted* that our gaming culture is a shit hole where you will be abused with virtually every slur ever produced out of the sputtering mouth of a bigot.

Many say "It's the Internet, get over it." And to them I say, "You're kind of dumb. Go away." because, for example, here at Relic News if you're a bigoted asshole you will get banned and good riddance. There is no reason why the Internet or any form of public discourse, be it a gaming service or a forum should be filled with this vile gutter trash. Actually what really amuses me is that many people in the fighting game community, and gaming community at large are mad that this is a big deal. Not because a woman was being sexually harassed in a competition, but because they want to pretend this treatment of other people does not warrant severe reprimands. I don't know which rationalization is worse.

So, yeah I've seen a lot of communities start talking about endogenous bigotry because of this incident, so I figured it was worth bringing up.

[Codex]

I almost forgot that there was a time in gaming where being such an asshole could get you banned from servers. I always played CS 1.6 in servers where hate speech was a ban-on-sight offense. But that was before mass online gaming with the likes of XBox Live and other services. Now, it's pretty much *accepted* that our gaming culture is a shit hole where you will be abused with virtually every slur ever produced out of the sputtering mouth of a bigot.

There was a time that that was the case? Bloody hell. Maybe I'm young, but this really saddens me, knowing what has been. The state of the internet saddens me.

Good thing the internet is for porn. At least that's stable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TA57L0kuc (not real porn.)

I'm a feminist in that I believe that men and women should be equal in terms of their rights and opportunities. That isn't to say that men and women don't have areas that they aren't better at and so better suited to it: Women tend to perform at a lower level for physical sports like rugby than men, while women tend to be better at gymnastics. So all people, regardless of gender, race, etc should be given the same opportunities, all else being equal. When it's not in relevant ways (like ability), act according.

but because they want to pretend this treatment of other people does not warrant severe reprimands. I don't know which rationalization is worse.

For some of them, I imagine that they don't even consider the idea that they might have done something wrong. For the others, they just bury their head in the sand. Is that not standard practice these days? People do these things because it feels liberating. It's a way of expressing frustration and taking it out on other. But now, the threat of some repercussions from their actions would mean they might, God forbid, have to revise their behaviour. They're not going to like that.

[AridMonk]

Black, is there a link to an article somewhere? Googling doesn't seem to turn up any relevant results.

[Black]

That's because I completely whiffed the name. The show is called Cross Assault.

Here's an example of an article: http://shoryuken.com/2012/03/01/hurt...in-the-mirror/

[Deionarra]

Here's a link to an article about the case Black's referring too; http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielny...ex-harassment/ (ninja'd by Black but i'll keep the link if you want another article)

Linking to this article just because I happened to see this as I was reading yet another recent story of bigotry in gaming related to a female writer for Bioware.

I'll probably write something more tomorrow if I'm less angry/tired then but for now I'll just give a depressing anecdote.

I've been running some basic IT classes for total beginners and started a new course this week. The people I'm teaching have almost no clue about the internet or computers in general and have to be taught with a lot of patience just so that they can get to grips with simple tasks such as how to turn on a PC, use a mouse, send an email and search for anything on the internet. Yet, even in their very first session, I've already had to answer some questions about the kind of abusive and intolerant things people post on various social networking sites.

Having to explain the inexcusable behavior of people with internet anonymity and how "there's not much that can be done about it" to someone who doesn't even know what Google is; that left me with a very nasty taste in my mouth.

[-Str!ker-]

I remember reading a blog or website months ago and it was for women to post the things the dumb little boys say to them just because they are a girl playing a game.

Ah here it is, warning there is some bad language and other lovely stuff in there.

Spoiler

http://fatuglyorslutty.com

Reading two pages of this made me feel so ashamed of being a male. Unfortunately gaming communities are being taken over by these immature idiots and in some cases this has caused me to stop playing a game all together from the abuse. Anyone who has BF3 can see this by looking at the forums. If you post anything in there, chances are someone will come along and derail the thread by trying to make fun of you. For girl gamers it's even worse considering that these people have no shame and any difference between you and them will be exploited to try and harass you. All of my girl friends who are gamers though have thick skin so these idiots just end up wasting their breath but the fact that this has become socially acceptable behavior and the norm is horrifying.

[roflmao]

e2: The video footage I'm now seeing is worse than what I first saw. So I retract what I said below, because I thought we were talking about something significantly milder.

e: Rewrote this post. I just know some people are going to misinterpret what I'm saying.

Their sin was making the comment in a very public place. As commentators, they're supposed to show professionalism and respect towards other people. It shows an astounding lack of prudence and social discernment to think locker room talk is o.k. anywhere, but having said all that, the comments themselves were relatively harmless. Of bad taste, yes. Annoying, also. Trash? Definitely. But still harmless.

Take this Louis CK skit. It's extremely vulgar, offensive, and borderline homophobic. Does the skit mean Louis CK is a bigot? Well, no, in fact he supports gay marriage. Making racy jokes does not automatically make you sexist, a bigot, or anything of that sort. The difference between the CK skit and what these commentators said is context. Louis told his racy jokes in a environment where where those sorts of jokes are socially acceptable. The commentators for that fighting video were making offensive comments in a context where it is not socially acceptable to make those comments.

Just consider you're talking about very young people (I feel weird saying this since I'm young). It's just immaturity, that's all. It's still wrong, but immaturity and sexism are pretty different.

[Maktaka]

When a crowd of fighting game enthusiasts areshouting out "Bitch! Bitch!" with every blow a female competitor takes and following it up with "Rape the bitch!" when she loses, yes, there is absolutely a problem with these people beyond a lack of propriety. There isn't a rational way to frame that situation other than they are not good people and ARE misogynist (they don't necessarily actively exclude women from competing, but they'll definitely treat them worse if they do), and trying to justify as part of the community like the commentator did is just enshrining it as "true fan" behavior and entrenching it further.

Try telling harmless to the female competitors and commentators, who abandoned the competition and likely aren't going to be competing anymore, at all, ever. Trash talk isn't harmless when it's so universally performed, hateful, and personal. If chanting for the rape of a female competitor is acceptable, see if you still feel the same way about calling out to a black competitor that you're gonna make him your slave when he loses.

The community members who engaged in those shouts aren't going to accept certain areas like competitions as "no degrading insult" zones. One needs only look at the comments in the various articles published on it to see very clear rejection of the concept, the individuals who endorse it, and the female players who are "making a big deal out of it". As long as such behavior is considered part of a gaming community and safe havens are enshrined for it, it will be always be a problem.

[Starblade]

The commentators for that fighting video were making offensive comments in a context where it is not socially acceptable to make those comments.

This is a community that’s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it’s not the fighting game community

The problem extends far beyond the commentary. The problem is that he is right, and that he doesn't want it to go away.

[LoCo]

Rolfmao: Did you read about what this is about?

Those commentator comments are just the shortlist. How about people shouting "rape that bitch" when a female character gets beaten in one of these games?

Or this summing up of some stuff that happened, and was reported, on day one of the event:

While Miranda “Super_Yan” Pakodzi was competing for Team Tekken in the contest, her coach, Aris Bakhtanians kept up a stream of colour - and colourful – commentary. This included speculation on her bra size, suggestions that he was going to “smell” her, and a proposal that she mud-wrestle another female gamer, with the winner going on to fight him.

Apparently that stuff continued to happen and the event organizers did nothing to curb it.

None of that is "lack of prudence".

Also... very young people? Do yourself a favor and google for a pic of Aris Bakhtanians. Then tell me he is "very young".

This is clearly sexism and it is clearly bigotry. There is no defense for anyone behaving like that, ever. Yes, I mean ever. I don't care if you think it's fine if it happens in the boy's locker room. You are wrong.

As for the comedy sketch... where is Louis CK being a bigot? He is making social commentary about political correctness. Not exactly digging into new territory, though we won't hold that against him, but it is nothing at all like what is going on here. Could you explain to me the connection between doing a comedy sketch about political correctness and someone yelling "Rape that bitch" when a female character gets beaten?

[Methuselath]

And this is why I stay away from fighting game scenes in general. I love fighting games, its good clean fun (settled my arguments with my bro on Street Fighter 2 when my dad introduced it as a substitute to yard boxing when we're pissed at each other) but the nature of the game brings, let's just say, unsavoury characters into the ring. The Forbes article got it right, fighting games history comes from the shadowy sleazy background in arcades, predominantly male, predominantly adolescent. Nothing you can do but to force scrub the current generation and sanitize the whole scene, perhaps turning it into something more professional, ala MMA or Pro Boxing. Funny thing, the games themselves then to portray women in a way that enforces the stereotypes so well, who to blame in this case?

Everyone I say, except the victims. The only respectable fighting game that I would not feel ashamed playing in public is Super Smash Brothers, maaaaaaybe Blazblue (drunk and sleepy, amped up on shamelessness. Even though I loved the hell out of the game.). Companies themselves aren't helping with the issue on how they portray female characters.

[Nurizeko]

Mute features make everything better.

[Harmanoff]

Why are we restricting this topic to gaming? I realize the RB is first and foremost a gaming forum but this is an issue that affects the internet as a whole, not just game communities. In the wake of the norway shootings last summer everyone here suddenly seemed to wake up and realize that all that anonymous hate actually have real world implications. This lead to a widespread debate about moderation or restricting the anonymity of the internet. Nothing tangible came of it sadly.. so we'll be seeing more wake up calls in the future.

Having been on these forums for 12 years have given me some firm insight into just how civil communication can be on the internet if you make that a stated goal and how moderation has not led to any detrimental effects on freedom of speech. And i think more communities out there should actively promote a civil tone, not just say they do. I agree with the OP in total. There simply no reason why treating others badly should not warrant severe reprimands.

[Fish Of Doom]

and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why i hate other human beings.

more seriously, i agree with harmanoff, it's not just a game issue, it's one that has manifested itself in gaming in a particularly noticeable way. it is also a disgrace to human civility. sadly, i have no idea of how to solve it, other than perhaps beating the shit out of everyone who does it, whether physically or verbally, and then outliving the motherfuckers so we can influence their children to not be assholes, which is not likely to be a successful endeavour.

[Octopus Rex]

I think that

There simply no reason why treating others badly should not warrant severe reprimands

is quite a contentious statement, depending on quite how you define those terms. People still need the freedom to be a douche. What constitutes a "severe reprimand"? How would we react if someone treated someone else badly in the non-gaming world?

I was about to say that people in real life are allowed to be complete douches and talk shit because that kind of stuff really isn't against the law, but then I thought that maybe people only can be like that but there's never been much way of proving what it, where as on the internet there's a record. Speech is not entirely free here in the UK (there's a couple types of speech you can get done for), but I guess it's always the effects of what you say that can land you in trouble - yet the two are inextricably linked surely?

None of that kind of stuff on the fighting game show is acceptable of course. I do wonder though if the competitor's crowd had been 50/50 male/female, and the women were shouting about 'bastards' and the men 'bitches' - would the whole thing sit more easily with people as just "heh, that's the fighting scene for you - dirty little potty mouths the lot of them" and is this outrageous largely because it's one way and towards a small minority? Or is any of that genuinely completely unacceptable in any context what-so-ever? (probably) I wouldn't really like the women follow suit at all, I'd much rather people weren't dickheads like this generally.

I did comment to my friends the other day after reading the RelicNews balance forum that I never thought I'd read the term "rapetastic". I'm not going to lie and pretend I'm a paragon of virtue, I found it funny, but I also found it disappointing, bizarre and thought provoking. The word rape has become .... well, I'm not sure what's it's become, but it's become something.

[DeafMute]

Reading the links, well this is the kind of shit Id expect to come from guys who are lucky to be in female company.
Also the same small group of people who Id take great pleasure in knocking some sense into, not with words either.

Put any small group of nerdy outcasts and youll get the same result, hopefully nature will take its course and these guys will never be able to breed.

[Jonny]

On a similar note I was just wondering the other day how the Internet seems to be blurring the lines between adult and child in how people act. Terms like "Umad bro?" "Butthurt" "Noob" are all straight from the local playground and aren't something you'd expect to see an adult use to a stranger in the normal course of things, yet they're par for the course on the internet.

Blase sexism, homophobia, racism and name calling I remember being part and parcel of being a child, teenager especially, but after I left school I very rarely encountered any of it and those who did act like that were generally looked down upon. The internet and the gaming community in particular are unique in that adults and teenagers interact freely in a way they tend not to do outside of the internet. I wonder if that, coupled with the anonymity, has lead to a spread of a "playground" culture which wouldn't otherwise be tolerated in adult life.

[Paladin]

Octo: You'd be wrong, at least in the US... talking shit to someone in RL can get you arrested if they know the law regarding assault, battery, and harassment (Sexual or otherwise). "Talking shit" can get you convicted of any of the three (Or all three at once, if you said the right things in the right way).

[DeafMute]

Its just pure shit talking, wind up the person you are fighting and you'll cause them to get mad which will bring about mistakes and a greater lead for you.
As for this playground mentality, simple really. most of these gamer types are assholes IRL but dont have the backbone to man the fuck up IRL so they revert to that child-like state online as its there only way of feeling powerful. How I see it atleast.

[Fish Of Doom]

this might be relevant, methinks: http://users.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/disinhibit.html

[Starfisher]

Now, it's pretty much *accepted* that our gaming culture is a shit hole where you will be abused with virtually every slur ever produced out of the sputtering mouth of a bigot.

You know, it suddenly occurs to me that the 12 year old spewing ultra-combo racism at me over xbox live will one day grow up, and that he is not some intrinsic part of the internet. Or maybe he is.

The problem facing gaming is that you can take a 12 year old, yank them out of the social context that governs their actions (grown ups basically), and give them total protection from retaliation. Plenty of them will respond by being total raging assfucks. It's like Lord of the Flies, almost. Eventually, a new culture arises, one that is a reflection of the maturity and sense of taste of the bulk of the participants - and you get shit like the fighting community, apparently. It doesn't even really need to be 12 year olds, it just needs to give anyone willing to act like an dick the power to do so, and a mechanism to concentrate with other people like him.

This quote:

This is a community that’s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it’s not the fighting game community

absolutely blows my mind. I mean holy shit. In one of the articles I read, one of the female participants dropped out after a particularly nasty bout of shit went her way. "Yeah bra just part of the culture" is fucking ridiculous. Didn't any of these people take history in elementary school? They're shaking my faith that my generation learned enough about civil rights and slavery to intrinsically reject that sort of bullshit.

[Harmanoff]

Octo:

I yanked the 'severe reprimand' line from Blacks starting post since i found it well worded but admittedly it doesn't work as well in my post because he was referring to a specific case while i made it sound like any 'bad' behaviour should be struck down mercilessly. What i mean is more like bad behaviour as in name calling and personal insults should be dealt with right away by moderators or community members in the form of banning or locking or such. After that there's a rising degree of severity where i can imagine threats or instigating hate crime being worthy of actual intervention from authorities but thats where other issues start popping up, like how regulated we want the internets to actually be. Either way my main point would be this: dealing with these problems start at at very basic level namely in communities and forums(RB being a good example) where you are, more or less, held to the same standards of behaviour as in 'real life'. Given how social networking has exploded the last decade its just not feasible treating online and offline as separate realities anymore.

[Homdax]

...and this goes to show why RB is among the best forums in the world. Sorry, on the Internet. ;p

Those people learning today to use the Internet will need support to set behavioral rules. I mean seriously. I just have to look at the work I put in to my 16 year old daughter. Many replies I get from her involves terms like "who cares" or "whatever" or "its the internet its not serious" and when I try to explain to her it is still about how people behave against each other she listens, for a little while.
I think this is one of the great challenges of our time, to set boundaries and to make people understand that it is necessary to have them. You just have to look in the News to see many many examples of how difficult this gets when others prevail with their example, even being a bad one.

omg, I just took this to FB.

[Mantaray]

normally i resort to physical violence in the face of bigotry and overt sexism. to BOTH genders. women need to learn that you cannot have cake and eat it.
on the flip side of this discussion. i more often see in the real world women supremacy on the rise and i wont stand for it. i got scolded the other day for not letting 'ladies first' and i scolded her straight back.

[Aron_DeTomado]

...what does that have to do with rape culture in (fighting) gaming circles?

[Starblade]

on the flip side of this discussion. i more often see in the real world women supremacy on the rise and i wont stand for it.

Oh this should be good.

[OhJohnNo]

Well there are a few anti-male women out there, obviously. But "ladies first" is just a polite tradition, I doubt it's related.

[Aron_DeTomado]

There is actually a lot of systematic discrimination against men out there, in my opinion, I just don't see how it relates to the subject of this thread.

Edit: Unless you want to go in the direction of men being excluded by rape legislation (which isn't that uncommon) or something, but even that seems like a stretch, as far as staying on topic is concerned.

[Mantaray]

But "ladies first" is just a polite tradition, I doubt it's related.

where do we draw the line between polite tradition and sexism. i had right of way in that instance. its fairly common decency to let people -off- a train before you try to board it.

the case i would like to make that, in this instance. its inexcusable. behavioural issue on the whole? also inexcusable.
but also. women are not exempt from displaying this behaviour in 'female dominant' circles. there is a fair bit of sexism in the hair and beauty job sector against men.
and im sick and tired of having the 'multitasking' card pulled on me. i don't go around telling women to get in the kitchen because thats where you belong. so dont constantly brag about how your gender supposedly grants you the ability to do seventeen million different tasks at once.

[Croaxleigh]

Except for, you know, the kitchen being where women "belong" and the whole "multitasking" thing are completely unrelated. Whereas one is a stereotype, the other has scientific study that supports it. Though it's not universal (since it depends on the specific tasks being performed), women often CAN multitask better than men.

[Mantaray]

Except for, you know, the kitchen being where women "belong" and the whole "multitasking" thing are completely unrelated.

unrelated in almost every single way. apart from them being used as leverage in a sexist way.

and as far as multitasking goes?
can we get some sources for this please? the only ones i can find involved 50 men and 50 women. which.. yaknow.. isn't even close to the sort of numbers i'd consider to be a credible experiment for gender studies.

i frequently talk to customers whilst packing bags in a logical way in one and whilst operating a till in the other, and i can do it a damn site better then the 3 other women who do the same job in my workplace. it sounds about as groundless as having different locations of the tongue being responsible for different taste sensations.

[Paladin]

Actually the multitasking studies are pretty divided on results and the more commonly accepted interpretation in the scholarly community is that it's more of a nurture than a nature issue.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Regardless of multitasking and kitchen duties, I think we can all agree that people who do not wait for the passengers to get off a train before trying to get on it themselves, are all assholes.

[Mantaray]

Regardless of multitasking and kitchen duties, I think we can all agree that people who do not wait for the passengers to get off a train before trying to get on it themselves, are all assholes.

i'm with you 100% on this. some guy tried to barge past me onto the train a few weeks ago on my way back from an interview and i shoved him out on his backside... i wasn't best pleased with the can of soft drink he was carrying getting splashed all over my suit. he tried to make a fight of it before a few other people intervened and i just walked off. i didnt intend to hurt him but i mean really. charge at a train head first into a group of people in the door trying to dismount. what did he EXPECT to happen?

anyway.. that's fairly off-topic...

[battledaemon]

This is the main reason why I dislike venturing into online gaming with a headset. It is a disgraceful case where sexual harassment and lurid and derogatory insults can be perceived as socially acceptable within a community (I seriously dislike the verb 'rape' being used so flippantly). But I'd like to point out the Fundamental Attribution Error -- human propensity to downplay the situation and emphasize the inherent disposition of a person to explain behaviour (Psychologically, attitudes aren't good indicators of behaviour), it's why we like to hope that people like Adolph Eichmann are monsters.

Nevertheless, seeing as the anonymity of the internet can have people act in this way

Ah here it is, warning there is some bad language and other lovely stuff in there.

Spoiler
http://fatuglyorslutty.com

it might be explainable, but it is still utterly inexcusable. I did not want to read on past that front page.

[Kalimac]

Counter-Strike being one of my first online multiplayer gaming experiences, I quite quickly got used to the constant trashtalk on public servers when playing. This was probably mostly due to most players being in the age span of 13 to 18, plus of course the anonymity which often renders people into assholes. Having played quite a few more titles since then, there's almost always been some level of this behavior from people in the online community. I especially think that titles with a largely young player base, and a major competetive aspect to them often may end up like this (for example CS, Call of Duty etc.), but I may be wrong here.

This has actually been a large part of why I've enjoyed the multiplayer in Space Marine so much. Never in my days have I seen so few morons in an online game community, almost everyone seem to be genuinely playing to have a good time or due to them enjoying the universe the game is set in. On the top of my head I can only mention one single instance where I've seen someone behave badly, and I have close to 200 hours in multiplayer by now.

[roflmao]

The video footage I'm now seeing is significantly worse than what I first saw. So I retract what I said in my opening post, because I
thought we were talking about something significantly milder.

I just read the Destructoid article: link

There's no excuse for treating women like crap in the way Aris did. Asking about that women's bra size, seriously? Then harassing her about her thighs? Ugh.

I seriously do want to apologize, because after investigating a bit more into the issue, I realize how much of an a-hole my opening post makes me out to be. I thought we were talking about people making racy jokes about one of the female fighters in the videogame. Not relentlessly harassing one of the women present for 13 full minutes without letting go.

[GeoffS]

Octo: You'd be wrong, at least in the US... talking shit to someone in RL can get you arrested if they know the law regarding assault, battery, and harassment (Sexual or otherwise). "Talking shit" can get you convicted of any of the three (Or all three at once, if you said the right things in the right way).

Just a minor clarification, "battery" would not be a sustainable charge unless there was some physical contact as well as the verbal attack. "Assault" and "harassment" are both certainly possible charges resulting from a purely verbal attack though.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Langy]

I expect trash talk in a competitive environment; of course people are going to in some ways harass the opposition. That's part of the game. The vast, vast majority of these comments aren't from people who are actually bigots, but instead are using terms in a slang fashion - 'gay' is slang for 'uncool', for example, and somebody who is in no way a bigot against homosexuals can use it as such. Even 'rape' is a slang term in the gaming culture, meaning something akin to 'to beat really badly', and to be honest I don't see anything wrong with calling an opponent 'bitch' - that's a normal slang term, and can be applied to both men and women. It's not something I support, really, but it's simply how the world works.

Trash talk, in a competitive environment such as a video game, is entirely expected. I'd prefer they were professionals about that trash talk, minimizing the amount of potentially questionable terms used, but I see no reason at all to restrict it completely.

That said, the things this Aris guy said - that's not just trash talk. That's just plain sexual harassment, and is in no way okay.

[TDATL]

Interesting that the guy asking what her bra size is looks like he needs one himself. I'm sure that is why he was asking. He just wanted to know what size he should wear .

But seriously there should have been judges on hand to stop such nonsense. That level of poor sportsmanship should have gotten him booted out.

[Aron_DeTomado]

'gay' is slang for 'uncool', for example, and somebody who is in no way a bigot against homosexuals can use it as such. Even 'rape' is a slang term in the gaming culture, meaning something akin to 'to beat really badly'

Uh-huh? Funny how words like "gay" and "girl" have alternate derogatory slang meanings while "straight" and "boy" do not. I'm sure that's just sheer coincidence and in no way related to homophobia and misogyny though.

[Akranadas]

My biggest gripe with gaming these days is the "U mad?" thing that appears.

[Kirjava]

I'm incredibly sorry that A) this is still considered ok in the modern gaming community, and that B) it continues to be rife when we have ladies involved who can say things like:

Gaming is competitive, and talking shit will likely always be a part of that. God knows I talk mad smack. However, I don’t think gender based insults are ok. I have every right to play games, and I shouldn’t have to not use a mic or hide my gender. I’m not going to make you a sandwich, and if you tell me to go play with my barbies, I will drive to my parents house, find one in the basement storage and shove it up your ass. I don’t want women to be discouraged from gaming because it’s a “boy thing”. It’s 2012. Come the fuck on.

I don't know about you, but I'm terrified.

[TDATL]

@Aron_DeTomado: Actually "boy" can very easily be an insult.

[Bonnet]

@Aron_DeTomado: Actually "boy" can very easily be an insult.

Now look here boy, I done told you that a boy has no business doin' a mans job.

(Sorry couldn't resist).

That said, the things this Aris guy said - that's not just trash talk.

I think there are two points to be made here:

Trash talk is always going to try and niggle at who are you are a little. If it didn't, it wouldn't be trash talk. The key thing here isn't that he told her to "go play with barbies" or some such sexist shit, its that he intentionally pushed her so that she would feel uncomfortable in a sexual manner. Jesus if he said those things to me I might have punched him, that shits downright creepy.

The second thing is that the online gaming community could use a little maturity. This directly over the line kind of talk is way to common, that fatuglyorslutty site points it out very well. But thats something only a community as a whole can enforce, and changing communities is hard.

Also Starfisher's point about 12 year olds is excellent as well, indeed Ericson's stages of development pretty much closely align kids before approximately the age of 12 or 14 as "sociopaths". Which is why as an avid gamer, when other people who are parents ask about playing games I caution them more about online play than anything else. I played games like "Delta Force II" when I was young, but almost never online. Also games being what they where at the time, communities where much more adult. Most of the players where older, and acted like it too. Putting a 12 year old online in a game like MW3 without parental supervision is just wholly irresponsible. I tell parents its not just bad for there kids, but miserable for me because they act like an uncontrolled teenager does and I can't do anything about it.

[Inquisitor Lok]

And that is why i think i play starcraft so bloody much online over any other game.. I've never liked online communities in games for the simple reason that the trash talk always goes beyond the point of trash talk (I've never understood/had the urge to call people faggots or whatnot in games is maybe why...) At least in SC2 any sort whine (90% of time) comes in the form of people bitching about my chosen race and not the trash talk found in FPS's or other games...

I really wish we could get over the fact that woman/ girls can play video games too and not have to be so judgmental over it due to the wonders of hiding behind the internet or gender based stereotypes..

[roflmao]

Yeah. Although, being very lenient, you can cut the 12 year olds some slack for being young and dumb. You can't cut this Aris guy some slack. There's just no justification for what he was saying. I still cannot believe he took that girl's giggling as an endorsment to continue riding on her.

I mean, there is a somewhat idiotic but common mentality among teenagers (once again, feel weird saying this) that saying something offensive is funny just because it's offensive. Why else do you think these kids talk trash on their mics? It's immaturity, and ultimately a sign of low self esteem since these kids are desperately trying to prove they are cool by swearing. I feel more sorry for (and annoyed at) the stereotypical 12 year old on xbox live than outraged. 12 yr olds were the type of person I was referring to when I talked about bigotry in gaming being more about immaturity than anything else.

But that commentator is a grown man. And he was commenting on a live show that thousands of people were watching. And the things he was saying.. And he just kept going on, and on, and on, and on...

And to make matters worse he's 30 something and looks like Tom Bombadil from Lord of the Rings. He just successfully reinforced every single negative stereotype about gamers, and in a downright creepy way.

[Langy]

Uh-huh? Funny how words like "gay" and "girl" have alternate derogatory slang meanings while "straight" and "boy" do not. I'm sure that's just sheer coincidence and in no way related to homophobia and misogyny though.

Both 'straight' and 'boy' have alternate derogatory slang meanings. 'Boy' generally means 'immature', and some people consider it to be a racist insult as well, having something to do with blacks and slavery, though to be honest that part of it is something I've never understood. 'Straight' can mean something like 'uncool', similar to 'gay', though its etymology comes from 'straight arrow' rather than slang for 'heterosexual', and it isn't all that commonly used.

And while the origins of 'gay' meaning 'uncool' is homophobia, using 'gay' to mean 'uncool' does not automatically make you a homophobe, nor does it mean you're a bigot. It's use in language today is only tangentially related to its etymology. Similarly, 'bitch' nowadays means a lot more than just 'female dog', and can be used as a generic interjection indicating surprise without having any relation to females, dogs, or bigotry in general.

[Black]

Langy, I take it you're neither a girl nor a homosexual. I also take it you've never felt like your life was threatened by people slinging slurs at you because of your sexual orientation. It's too late right now for me to make an effort post, but I'll just say that your reasoning is one of the major rationalizations for casual bigotry in our society. I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to tell people they shouldn't be offended because you think using 'gay' as a slur has little to do with the fact that gay people get thrown out into the streets and beaten to death while people call them fags. Maybe tomorrow I will make a huge effort post because I see a lot of very wrong viewpoints in this thread. I assume you're all reasonable people who don't like making others feel terrible and you would appreciate some reading material.

[LoCo]

Langy: By virtue of the fact that you know of the derogatory meanings of such words, and you know that people will take great offense at the use of such words, when you keep using such words you are, in fact, insulting them. It doesn't really matter if you use the word to insult them or not, what matters is that you know the outcome, and proceed with the cause.

EDIT: Also, "boy" is insulting to black people because (at least in South Africa) one would call the black guy who worked for you "boy" or "the boy", thus eliminating the need to even learn their names, and since 'people' are referred to by their name, the black guy was demoted to something below 'people/person' by calling them "boy".