Farewell

[dams]

Dark Millenium seems to be in progress with over 5 years of development under its belt, as well as Darksiders II coming to boost Vigil/THQ and by extent Relic.

Lets stay hopeful and discard that horrible(?) imperial propaganda which declares that hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.


Instead, lets recollect on this imperial thought of the day "To admit defeat is to blaspheme against the Emperor."

[Kalimac]

But as He of the Long Build Time clearly stated, "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment", which must make it true.

[FooF]

Dark Millenium seems to be in progress with over 5 years of development under its belt...

I don't think anyone is arguing that Dark Millennium won't get released but if it was in development for 5 years, those 5 years were spent devoted to a MMO, not a SP game with MP elements. They basically had to start over because the development goals of an MMO is quite different than a SP-game. Likewise, you can get away with visuals in an MMO that you can't get away with in a purely SP experience. I don't think they'll scrap art assets at this stage but the game isn't going to win any visual awards.

Again, DM will come out but the quality of product that it is will be questionable, by all indications. That's not the fault of Devs that are working hard to salvage the project but of a publisher that needs to create revenue as fast as it can. Quality is undoubtedly going to suffer when deadlines start piling up. Who knows, maybe DM turns out to be better than we think but will it be enough to propel THQ into the black (or Darksiders II for that matter)? I doubt it.

[gorays]

Best of luck to everyone who lost their jobs. In other news,

"I love Relic RTS games! Stand by. News to come soon." - THQ

https://twitter.com/#!/DannyBilson

[Caeltos]

Soon™

[General Kong]

"I love Relic RTS games! Stand by. News to come soon." - THQ

Intersting................

[CommissarRezail]

So soon is trade marked now ?

[FooF]

Bilson is like a weatherman. He's right enough that you have to listen to him but wrong enough that you can't trust him. Put me in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category.

[CommissarRezail]

Ewww it came out of Bison mouth ......Now i don't know what to think... get excited or stay normal...

[Makenshi]

You were never normal to begin with

[Vintage]

Don't get excited, it's just an announcement about an announcement. I really hate that trend these days. An announcement about an announcement means fuck all until you get to the part where you are actually announcing something. I hereby announce any announcements that exist only to announce an actual announcement to be deemed meaningless bullshit. Ignore them at all costs.

[Logic_Bomb]

And worse still, it wasn't even an unsolicited announcement about an announcement. It was an announcement about an announcement in response to Goray's plea for an announcement on Twitter.

[Quak0r]

I'm calling it now! it's Company of Heroes 2: Modern Warfare. Because Modern warfare makes money. lots of money!

[Demiurg]

I'm calling it now! it's Company of Heroes 2: Modern Warfare. Because Modern warfare makes money. lots of money!

I'd buy that, to keep me going while waiting for DoW III.

[CommissarRezail]

Same, it probably be the best mordern warfare game out there considering coh did ww2 nicely.

[Malachi]

*wanders off to sacrifice some virgins in the intention of it being DOW3*

[General Kong]

*hands Malachi The Sacrificial Knife*

[Shuma]

Don't get excited, it's just an announcement about an announcement. I really hate that trend these days. An announcement about an announcement means fuck all until you get to the part where you are actually announcing something.

At least it's not an announcement to a timer that counts down to the announcement of another timer. I swear a videogame company did that once, but i can't remember what game it was, maybe Metal Gear Solid 4?

[CommissarRezail]

Whats even worse is that they would have a timer in code as well. So you looking at a bunch of symbols and numbers moving around and you don't know when its going to end. I guess its time to add timers and announcements to axis of evil list?

[Pseudonymn]

an announcement about an announcement

And, thus, was Twitter born; a blight upon the face of journalistic integrity.

*wanders off to sacrifice some virgins in the intention of it being DOW3*
*hands Malachi The Sacrificial Knife*

Heresy! This Khornate blood-worship must not be countenanced! Feel the wrath of teh Emprah! *BLAM*

[CommissarRezail]

What if they are just announcing thier new forum they are supposley making.

[|iG|Vertigo]

Also I can't help but lol @ whoever wanted Valve to buy Relic. If they did Dawn of War 3 would never come out in our lifetimes.

...And when it eventually appeared, it could very well be the best in the series. Valve's the finest developer currently working on the PC in my opinion, and it's probably the best thing that could happen to the series.
Won't happen though, unfortunately. Valve never acquires IPs on their own, their MO is to gobble up mod teams or indie game developers. Unless someone produces a highly successful 40k mod in Source, it ain't gonna happen.

[Ra owa]

Unless someone produces a highly successful 40k mod in Source

Go, modders, go!

[Hirmetrium]

Valve are also shocking at PR and have no concept of a deadline. Even Blizzard know when push comes to shove, and even then they take it a bit further (cut content, push back blizzard dota, change EVERYTHING in heart of the swarm again).

I personally dislike Valve, just because they are not very transparent. I am a "customer" of Valve, yet they have never treated me with any respect when I've used their Steam platform. And I also hate Steam - mostly for the same reasons people hate Origin, but I really welcome the competition (else we'll end up in a horrible world where steam has a monopoly and Valve do what they want.)

Also, hate I Steamworks.

I honestly don't know who I'd like to take over Relic. EA seem to be attached to as much bad news as they show promise in some of their games, Activision exploit everything (and would gut Relic in favour of blizzard) and other Publishers show little promise (Ubi's DRM, for example). Maybe Edios, Square, or somebody like that could snap them up?

Oh, and I believe TASK3R got a job. Hope there's good news from the others.

[Shuma]

Square

Remember Supreme Commander 2? Although i'm not sure if they just published the game to be honest.

[SpardaSon21]

I've heard Squarenix also helped with the storyline on Supreme Commander 2, so we really don't want them messing with Dawn of War knowing how that turned out. Besides, knowing Squarenix main characters we'd probably get a Pretty Marine as our Force Commander in Dawn of War 3.

[LoneWolf666]

Valve isn't into RTS games anyway. Then again, they also weren't into MOBAs. I never really rated a Valve game I played below "very good", so maybe that's a shame, but oh god, the release date would be decades away...

[Codex]

Also, hate I Steamworks.

Going Yoda on us?

I personally dislike Valve, just because they are not very transparent.

What are these? I'd like to hear opinions, because I'm still undecided about Origin.

Also, I wish Origin had a clock in the overlay.

[Maktaka]

@LoneWolf Valve has said in the past that they're into whatever game genres they can do well on whatever platforms they can deliver the full quality of the product on. I could see them doing an RTS if they felt they could deliver a quality of experience on par with their FPS work.

[|iG|Vertigo]

Valve are shocking at PR

Can't say I agree. They'd almost completely reversed an extremely hostile reception to Left 4 Dead 2's announcement by the time the game launched. The new Counter-Strike game, which runs the gauntlet of an entrenched hardcore community, has been handled with lots of transparency and community feedback.

With regard to their adherence to deadlines, I don't remember any significant delays for their recent products. The last one I can remember was Half-Life 2. Allegedly the cause of that delay was the prototype leak, though personally I don't think they'd ever have finished it on time. Still, that was nearly a decade ago, and Valve was a very different company.
Sounds like you may be referring to HL2 Episode 3 with the talk of low transparency and missed deadlines. They've never actually announced any release date for that, and their lack of transparency around the project is probably precisely because Gabe Newell and others blabbed about it when it was still on the drawing board, raising false expectations. My belief is that they decided against continuing the episodic system and are developing the next game as a full title.

I am a "customer" of Valve, yet they have never treated me with any respect when I've used their Steam platform.
Also, I hate Steamworks.

Er, would you care to elaborate?

Oh, and I believe TASK3R got a job. Hope there's good news from the others.

Very glad to hear it, talented guy. I hope the rest of the released employees are snatched up quickly too.

[Gorb]

I'm pretty sure I remember the L4D2 content fiasco sticking around way past launch. Then there were the (ongoing) issues with servers. The "boycott" lasted a laughable amount of time; remember all the people in the boycott playing the game?

[Vintage]

I wouldn't want Blizzard obtaining the Warhammer IP. They make quality products, but they are not very innovative. Just look at Star Craft II. The game was a built in instant success, they could have released shoveled shit and it would have sold like mad. Knowing this, getting a little creative wouldn't have been nearly as risky as other developers taking risks with unestablished products. Instead we get basically Star Craft 1.5, better graphics (although subpar graphics compared to other modern games) and almost identical gameplay with some very minor changes. Now this is perfectly fine, there is nothing wrong with this and many people enjoy the 12 year old gameplay. After playing Relic RTS playing SC2's 12 year old gameplay just felt stale to me.

[Bowkers]

Boycotts by videogamers are hilarious..As in bad..as in they don't exist..as in they pretty much preorder the game then whine like some pathetic little kitten that hasn't been fed.

[Castigon]

So, what about this soon thing?...
And yeah, I'm continue playing DoW2, but losing hope for DoW games future...

About Dark Millenium. Someone must seen the game Kingdoms of Amalur - Reckoning,
as far as I know this game have been developing as MMO project, but devs turned it
into singleplayer. This game has pretty poor graphics, but very fun to play. If it would
be MMO, I'm sure this game would fail very badly. maybe its too early to pass off Dark
Millenium? Though I see Wh40k mostly as RTS, not sure any other form of it would be
fun for me to play.

[Hirmetrium]

This soon thing amounts to the past year that THQ have been teasing some sort of announcement - first at Gamescom (where NOTHING HAPPENED) then in December (WHERE NOTHING HAPPENED). From what I've heard from people (and take this with a grain of salt) everything in Relic has been thrown into a semi-hold state, simply because staff have left. THQ appear to be really sweating it, and don't know what to do. I wouldn't expect an announcement from THQ for a while.

Also, I was asked on Origin (ironic) to clarify what I meant about Valve/Steamworks.

Basically, Valve have control. More control than anybody else. If Valve wanted to, they could screw everyone over in a second, and in fact, reports have stated as such; steam accounts being locked with little to no explaination, and poor customer support with no phoneline and a "ticket" in limbo until they decide otherwise. Remember, these are YOUR GAMES - Valve can take them away whenever they want and for no reason, and you can't do shit except open a ticket on their crappy customer support system.

The HL2 delay fiasco was what I was referring to, followed by the whole L4D turtle rock takeover/gutting, to L4D2 being announced and completed within a year (probably giving Valve massive profits to keep their cushiony developer lifestyle) with a lot of negative stigma around the content of L4D2 and the promised ongoing support of L4D1 (which hadn't yet materialised, but since has). Seems to have been ignored/swept under the rug.

Steamworks, is a different kettle of fish - I believe L4D1/2 used the original incarnations, as did Empire Total War. Both these games suffered from appalling connectivity and problems from the ground up. Lag, NAT issues, etc, etc. I'm only guessing, but Steamworks is a very mediocre product which is sold to developers as a bunch of tools to integrate into Steam - and since each integration is different, Steamworks isn't universally consistent like GFWL. Of course, the funny thing is that you generally get to choose between GFWL (which is villianised and victimised but ultimately unsupported and ignored by MS, who can't seem to decide what to do with it) or Steamworks - the alternatives out there are few, and by no means as big as those (I forget if there are others, feel free to call me out on this). Steamworks fundamentally does nothing but anchor a product to Steam, without providing much support in terms of online connectivity and netcode (I believe those have to be made by the developer). Of all the time I've followed Relic, they seem to constantly fight a battle with what to use on their products. Recently, its been Steamworks (as its THQ's choice of the moment, despite MS trying very hard to swing them back to GFWL), but even then I've not been convinced on its long-term goodness (both Space Marine and DOW2:R have had their problems with it, DOW2:R's stat tracking being one of the funniest "you completed hard!" "err no I didn't").

TL;DR - Valve and steamworks suck.

As for bycotts, I've long given up hope. They didn't work when trying to fight secuROM, why would they work for anything else? I personally don't buy Ubisoft products because of the DRM/bycotting of them. But I am just one person. We'll see.

[Pseudonymn]

There's that word again. "Innovative".

Seriously. We're talking about a franchise that fits (at least it used to) into the RTS genre. It's a mature genre, going strong on 15+ years of development cycles. Just how much "innovation" and tinkering can reasonably be expected at this point before the game no longer resembles anything like an RTS? DoW2 already squats on the line between RTS and RTT. How much further must it go in order to satisfy some perceived need for change and "something new"? Where does it stop? Pardon the hyperbole, but will people only be satisfied when DoWxxx finally becomes just another CoD FPS clone? Or can we be satisfied with a game that we've all enjoyed so far and continues to carry the torch by fleshing out more of the Blood Raven's lore while preserving its RTS roots?

I guess what I'm saying is that a reskin isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as it at least delivers a lot of great content on the front end. Just think, if they didn't have to spend as much time tinkering with shit, they could take what they have and deliver something spectacular instead of something mediocre.

Again, change for the sake of change alone is a bad, bad idea. It's the principle cause of bloatware and feature creep at best and at worst a breeding ground for bugs. Hell, you only need to look at the patches for evidence of that.

[General Kong]

^This

[Vintage]

Look up the definition of innovative. I'm not talking about dumbing down RTS to the point where it becomes an FPS like CoD. I honestly can't even fathom why you bothered typing that. Look at Company of Heroes. Suppression, cover, flanking, tanks with directional armor capable of bouncing shells and the ability to destroy engines, blow of turrets, etc.. Now look at Starcraft 2. Gameplay that was fun 12 years ago and stale now. They could have done so much more with the game besides making it a reskinned SC1.

Again that is just my opinion. It is fine if you enjoy the 12 year old gameplay. I personally do not, and I don't think Blizzard would do the Warhammer IP justice.

[Pseudonymn]

Look up the definition of "hyperbole". There's no need to rip on that when it was clearly stated as such. Exaggeration to make a point is why I typed it, which was simply that the RTS genre has matured to the point where there's not much more that can be done to it without moving it beyond of what fundamentally defines an RTS game.

I never said SC2 was the better game per se. I applaud (most of) Relic's innovations and contributions to the genre. The things you listed are to RTS games what the differences between stone and rubber are to wheels. Specifically, they make the product better with out changing what it is: a wheel. (And in the case of DoW1 and CoH, RTS games.)

All I'm saying is that there comes a point in time when the wheel is a wheel and no amount of innovation or tinkering will contribute positively to its further development. DoW2 already treads a fine line between RTS and RTT, two related but fundamentally different types of games. My fear is that this perception that each new game in a franchise must be "different from the last" will push the franchise out of the RTS arena altogether into something that, IMO, I can't enjoy.

[Edit] I suppose in hindsight, I could point to Supreme Commander as an RTS game that went too far the other way and innovated itself into this colossal beast that was way too overwhelming to enjoy as well (re: bloatware and feature creep). It just didn't turn my crank having to, for instance, zoom so far out of the battlefield that all my units had to be tagged with dots and symbols much of the time rather than allowing me to retain situational awareness while also enjoying the artwork of the game itself. The balance between presentation and hardcore RTS just wasn't there for me.

[Edit2] One could also point to the many arguments that were had in the early days of DoW2, how they cut out many of the innovations that made CoH such a great game without replacing them with something of greater worth or even new in DoW2. DoW2 as compared to CoH in that regard was literally a downgrade and a step in the wrong direction in the eyes of many, myself included. All for the sake of moving DoW2 into new territory. I really wish I could find the developer interview where they said pretty much just that and, by doing so, they hoped to attract new players to their product (ironically, from the CoD FPS clone-playing crowd).

[Vintage]

I'd much rather have DOW III be more like CoH and less like DOW II.

[Pseudonymn]

On that, I think we can heartily agree.

[LoneWolf666]

@Vintage: I wouldn't. There's going to be CoH2 for that (assuming CoH2 or DoW3 ever see the light of day).

[Warboss_Al]

I think making DoW 3 like DoW 2 would set relic's fate in stone. And isn't it slightly hypocritical for berating people for wanting DoW3 to be like an earlier game, but then saying that it should just continue with DoW 2 style gameplay?. Not that I'm pointing the finger at anyone specifically. That's just the feeling I get from the supporters of DoW 2.

On valve, I've never really had any issues with steam or steamworks. Unlike GfWL, which factors greatly in my decision to buy a game or not. Required patches which may or may not install, stupid purchasing system, laggy interface. Can't stand it. The only thing I hate about valve is the way they're handled TF2. Wouldn't ever call myself a valve fanboy because of it.

I think I would be slightly sad to see THQ to go under. While I could count on one hand the number of memorable games they've had in recent times, they've never seemed to be utterly greedy and evil like EA or activision.

[SOLID MATTIC]

What is it with these "dow2 sucks 'cause they changed it" people. This argument was old even before vanilla dow2 came out. You don't like the game fine, we got that in 2009 and we get it now. This thread started out as a farewell to Pulse.r and in extension the other relic employees that lost their jobs. There is no reason to turn into some kind of circle jerk of righteous vindication of anyone who thought that relic took a wrong turn with its sequel.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how relic and THQ proceeds with DOW and COH. My only hope is if they do make more of these games that relic isn't pushed by THQ to rush them out in their desperation to get some profit.

[Vintage]

@SOLID MATTIC,

Not sure who your post is directed at since I do not recall anyone saying "dow2 sucks 'cause they changed it". I thought DOW II was great fun, I'd just like to see the sequel move in the direction of CoH. The sequel should have more depth to it, if it is too similar to DoW II I'll suffer a similar disappointment I had when I played SC2. That doesn't mean make Dow III CoH in space either. Given the race and unit variety, there are many things that can be done in Warhammer setting that can't be done in a WWII setting. Dow III can easily adopt some of the better features from CoH and use the Warhammer setting to take it even further and completely distinguish itself.

The same thing goes for CoH 2 as well. There are many things that can be improved on for CoH 2. I wouldn't want it to be a clone of CoH without taking the opportunity to improve on or add new mechanics. For starters, air support and anti-air units definitely could play a bigger role.

[FooF]

I hate to invoke TV Tropes but:

They Changed It, Now It Sucks and It's the Same, Now It Sucks

You can't please everyone. DoW2 "changed it" and was reviled by the traditional RTS crowd and DoW1 purists but found its own niche as a faster-paced RTS with less emphasis on macro-decisions. Starcraft 2 didn't "change it" and is being called a re-skin. DoW3, if it were wise, would try not to carter to either side and stand on its own merits. Obviously, as Pseudo mentioned, there's only so many things you can do to a wheel before innovations becomes simply a buzzword.

I personally would prefer deeper gameplay a la CoH but as much as I enjoyed CoH, the WH40K IP deserves a larger scale. I don't necessarily want SupCom-style macro battles but I would like battles larger than DoW1. But that's just me. If DoW3 pulls a CoH and goes the "innovation" route, that's fine as long as it pulls it off. At this point, I just want the game to exist, never mind be awesome. :P

[Pseudonymn]

^ No, no, no. No! We want it to both exist and be awesome! Otherwise there won't be a DoW4!

Also, "I would like battles larger than DoW1 [with DoW2 artwork or better but not SupCom. Titans! Titans for the Machine God!]."

*drools*

[saukopf]

COH2! COH2! I'm dying for it! No matter about Eastern Front, or vietnam, or modern combat, no matter Collector's Edition, or standard Edition, or Steam only. Relic, just release, and my money is yours!

[Pseudonymn]

Food for thought:

Hypothetically speaking, what if ID Software took over the WH40K IP? Sure, they have virtually no experience making RTS games and such, but I bet they could make a kick-ass Space Marine sequel or something along those lines. And John Carmack is just the kind of developer who knows how to make games for gamers and has a track record of openness and transparency when undertaking his projects. Even though Rage was a bit of a misstep for the studio, John was quite open about identifying the problems that may have contributed to that and how to make a better go of it the next time around. Honestly, I can't think of a single developer I'd trust more than, Mr. Carmack. The only wildcard I can see with that is whether or not 40K would float his particular boat enough to research the IP properly and master all the finer details the way Relic did.

[|iG|Vertigo]

Well, keep in mind that Carmack is Id's tech guy, gameplay isn't generally his area. I'm in the minority in that I thought Doom 3 was spectacular with a light sprinkling of balance polish, and their expertise would easily translate to a Space Hulk type of game. Any kind of 40K shooter from them would be cause for anticipation (if not necessarily a guaranteed success).
They're not known for branching outside known territory though, I have a hard time seeing them trying their hand at a strategy title.