[TV/Lit] HBO's adapatation of Song of Ice and Fire, now on Season 2

[sporty]

Margaery would've been one of those younger characters that didn't need the age treatment I think. Not with what is given in the books at least, but she's already grown out of this now, including certain spoilers to details that become quite important later on. I'll have to wait and see, they seem to intend a bigger role for her in the show, maybe she'll even replace the Queen of Thorns?

Brienne was excellent, tackling Loras to the ground did a great job as a first impression, without the long description of the entire mêlée the books had. Also nice to use perspective to emphasise her physical height.
Nice to bring out Theon's inner conflict, the books barely imply this and he's vilified for betraying the Starks. Balon's "plan" to conquer the North is ridiculous of course, and delusional even for him. The North has never been conquered and cannot be held, but that's one of those minor nitpickings
Condensing the events up to Arya's capture was well enough handled. An early introduction of Ser Amory Lorch was probably necessary since the actor playing Gregor Clegane quit, and there probably isn't enough screentime to show the Mountain and his men as the vilest foragers the Lannisters have. Freeing the prisoners was a bit too weak, there wasn't this sence of mortal danger or the fear of those monsters on the other hand.

[Langy]

Balon doesn't intend to conquer the North, just raid it. His plan is basically to be stereotypical vikings.

[Starfisher]

It sounds like he really does want to "take it", whatever that means. His plan to hold the Neck makes it pretty clear that he wants to hold on to it for a while, and in the series he says, "Winterfell may defy us for a year but what of it?" which means he wants to be there for at least a year.

[Coey]

Having read the books I am grinning ear to ear reading this thread.

[OhJohnNo]

I have indeed read most of the books too, by now - I'm liking the differences in the series.

[MagosMechanicus]

I'm still not liking this aggressively pimp-flavoured interpretation of Littlefinger, and the Craster situation really didn't make sense. Other than that, I've been enjoying this new season immensely.
The last episode actually made me feel sorry for Theon, and that is no mean feat.

A Clash of Kings

Didn't Tyrion offer Littlefinger Harrenhal and the Riverlands out of turn, there? IIRC he got those titles for brokering the Tyrell/Lannister alliance and as a tool for bringing over Lysa. Or am I completely wrong there?

Despite the brevity of his apperances, a man from Lorath has made some impression. A man looks forward to seeing how he progresses.

[PetarB]

I didn't mind this episode but increasingly I'm seeing 'talking head' syndrome... where the set up is two people in a room or location, interacting, usually just talking. Come on, I want to see more production value! Perhaps they're saving up the budgets for the end. Book readers will have some idea of what I'm talking about....

[sporty]

Balon's speech there was most likely nothing but flavour, it really is nothing but a minor nitpick. Guess it wasn't aimed at portraying the actual Greyjoy ambitions, rather showing that the Northerners will be subject to some major reaving.

Think Magos remembers correctly, it isn't a meaningful deviance from the books though. Unless they use the topic later on...

[Starfisher]

I'm pretty sure Balon intends to take and hold the North. In the books his ambition is to be a king like the old ironborn kings - and that means holding land on Westeros, not just plundering it. The guy who built Harrenhal was ironborn, and ever since that place got melted by dragons they've been itching to get back in the business of lording over a chunk of the main continent.

Also, Balon's strategy doesn't make any sense if he just intends to raid the North. Why take and hold the Neck if you're just going to grab stuff from the shore towns? Also

book 3 and 4

At the Kingsmoot, they're all talking about how Balon's attempts to take the north are either a) stupid and need to be repealed or b) awesome and need to be expanded. Euron ends up winning the day by telling everyone that they don't have to settle for the North, because he's going to give them the iron throne. It seems that everyone in the ironborn ranks thought they were taking the North for the long haul, not just for some temporary fun times.

[sporty]

Ah, have to admit that I'm not that far in on my reread yet, you're certainly right about things like the spoilered part. Never thought it was just about raiding though, just that the conquest would be more limited, to certain important locations like the Neck for example. This could be enough to subdue the North, without actually conquering and holding the whole land. It's the biggest province of Westeros if I remember correctly, and Pyke the smallest/among the smallest, so even the hint of a complete conquest sounded wrong to me.

Spoiler

Also the background of the later books of course, the crannogmen or the small houses of the mountains constantly wearing the Ironborn forces down, and Bolton's inability to simply take the realm without the legitimacy of a "Stark".

[IcyPenguin]

God, I really do hope that

Spoiler

Jojen and Meera Reed

show up... I've heard people saying that the Reeds aren't making an appearance in season 2, which seems to be a pretty drastic change, considering how important they are in the next three books. I'd love to see some Reed bannermen too. Interesting to see how they'd be portrayed in the series.

Also,

Spoiler

RIP YOREN, YOU DIED A BADASS, AND IN MORE DETAIL THAN THE BOOK

[Kirjava]

WELL.

Roose Bolton? Check.
Appalling frightened-rat-eating-through-stomach torture? Check.
Arya's prayer? Check.
Littlefinger being a bit less hamfisted than he was with Circe? Check.
Melisandre getting her kit off in a cave and birthing a terrifying shadow-creature in a scene that half aroused/half repulsed (yes, I am a very confused man) me?

Oh that's a big check.

Budget is showing though- we don't even get a shot of Robb Stark's men shouting, "The King in the North!" or charging. And I wonder if...

Just in case it actually is a spoiler...

we're substituting the battlefield nurse for Jeyne Westerling...

In other news, some more glorious scenes with Tyrion, further insight into Joffrey's creepy sadism and Dany finally gets to Quarth (and gets some pronunciation lessons).

[Misiok]

That little inbreed ****-wad boy king just did it again. How can a character so much invoke hate from me on such magnitute. First I was like 'hah, you twat, seeing tits for the first time, aren't you' but no, he had to change that going from funny to disturbing. What an ingrateful little shit.

[Akranadas]

How can a character so much invoke hate from me on such magnitute.

It's a testament to the actor playing him.

Melisandre getting her kit off in a cave and birthing a terrifying shadow-creature in a scene that half aroused/half repulsed (yes, I am a very confused man) me?

That scene was pure nightmare fuel.

[Misiok]

That scene was actually kinda hot. Because the actress is still incredibly hot (extra points for being a fiery redhead and she wasn't really pregnant) and who knew, guess her crazy religion was true after all.

[Malachi]

The Melisandre scene is the most anticipated one for me, in this season (yet to see the episode), so I'm glad it's strong enough to provoke comments like that.

Spoiler

And I wonder if we're substituting the battlefield nurse for Jeyne Westerling...

Books 2 and 3

I sure hope the Westerling girl isn't going to get replaced by some nurse, it seemed rather obvious that the Westerlings were Tywin Lannister's pawns in causing Robb to break his promise to the Freys. How would that work out with some nurse?

[Coey]

I'm facepalming so hard after that last spoiler, how could I miss that!

[Kirjava]

I spoilered that bit in my post just in case Malachi, would you mind doing that in your quote so my edit isn't pointless?

Re: your thoughts...

Books 2 and 3

I never figured Jeyne for a plant by Tywin- that would take ridiculously specific planning, or rely on raven communication that could be intercepted by the Northmen (since Tywin was cut off from Lannister territory after the Battle of the Fords, any ravens would have had to go a long way and risk falling into Robb's hands, jeapordising the whole plan). If, on the other hand, what happened with Jeyne was spontaneous- and it fits with Martin's constant emphasis that the best laid schemes of mice and (First) Men often go awry- then the nurse can perform the same function, which is ensuring Robb breaks his marriage alliance with the Freys.

[Malachi]

Books 2/3

Well, taking some nurse for his wife would be seriously out of custom and fairly weird for Robb. This kind of thing just doesn't happen in a feudal society like that. And well, my notion about the Westerlings (the parents more than Jeyne herself) is based on the letters Lord Tywin has been writing that Tyrion wonders about, I think I remember a quote along the lines of: "words winning wars as well as swords" or something, but, more importantly, the fact that Grey Wind seems extremely suspiciouos of the Westerlings, which even Cat seems to notice and find alarming.

Also, where the hell did you spot Roose Bolton?

[Shaitan]

Roose was the guy talking to Robb after the battle about flaying people and what not.

[Saunders]

Rewatch the episode, Roose Bolton's appearance should jump right out at you. He talks about flaying and everything with Rob.


From last week's episode, I was concerned that they would be cutting down on some of the more grueling parts of book 2 that really fuel the rage that characters and readers feel towards certain unsavory individuals.

This week certainly relieves much of that concern, particularly towards Arya's troubles. All-in-all, it was disturbing enough.

Regarding the particularly scene with Tyrion's "gift" to Joffrey (I must confess that I zipped through it, the depravity of it made me squeamish), did that happen in the book as well? I can't recall, and figured that it would have stood out like many of Joffrey's actions.


Also, fart joke? YEAAAH! (felt totally out of place in the episode, but I was still slightly amused)

[Shaitan]

It wasn't in the book. There is a point at which Bronn basically says the same thing but I don't think they end up going through with it.

[sporty]

Don't think it happened in the books, don't think it was really necessary either since everyone hates Joffrey like the plague anyway. Maybe it's a substitute for the scene where he's shooting at starving commoners
By the way, was Tyrion playing the white knight for Sansa in accordance with the books? On one hand I vaguely remember Ser Meryn throwing her into her chamber abused, on the other hand the "what kind of knight beats a lady" quote seemed also very familiar...

Mayhaps I misheard, but was Ser Amory Lorch (who slew Yoren last episode) now addressed as the Mountain?
Littlefinger felt out of place at Renly's host, but the other of the changes I like. Tywin replacing you-know-who at Harrenhal is a development I'm really interested in. Then again, with the speed the show is blazing through book 2, developments at Harrenhal are something a man is most interested in per se

Wished for an appearance of Nymeria's wild pack during the opening scene, wasn't that disappointed.

Kirjava's spoiler

Really looks like a Jeyne Westerling replacement, who was also a kind of nurse... This new girl hinted at some kind of Lannister allegiance, maybe she's nobility after all? Her and Robb were partly coincidental (indicated by her true love, as well as her possible flight with his unborn child), partly engineered, I'd hate it if the show failed to keep this ambiguity.

[Malachi]

Tyrion did save Sansa when Joffrey decided on getting her naked in the front of the entiare court in the books, yes.

The Mountain thing is really confusing. I don't think they meant Amory Lorch, but if they were talking about the "proper" Mountain - Gregor Clagane, then it would seem he is going to appear after all?

Wished for an appearance of Nymeria's wild pack during the opening scene, wasn't that disappointed.

Same here.

----------

Also, Roose Bolton is so far from how I imagined him that I totally refused to believe it was him.

[Starfisher]

book 4 and 'nurse'

So in Book 4 it is revealed that Tywin and Jeyne Westerling's mother had an "understanding" of some kind. It is heavily implied that her mother encouraged Jeyne to go "comfort" Robb, which would trigger his north-honor and break his alliance with the Freys. Grey Wind doesn't trust the westerlings at all, which in this world is a dead giveaway.

[Kirjava]

Ah, well, been a while since AFfC so you're probably right Starfisher.

This season is going to be a bit more problematic than the last one re: what characters look like for me re: Malachi's thoughts on Roose. I watched the first season oblivious to the books, so was more than happy to accept that Sean Bean was Ned Stark. This time around, I've read all of them and have subsequently got my own ideas. For the most part, it's all good- Stannis, Davos, Melisandre, Margaery etc are all fine, but Roose is actually one of the few characters I had a definite image for, particularly sound-wise. He's supposed to be quiet, apparently his voice seems no more than a murmur most of the time. This guy didn't really nail that mental image.

Oh well, adaptation and all that, plus I guess it was a battlefield and you can't expect to be heard properly if you just mumble to yourself! Still, I hope we get to see some leeches.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The Mountain was Gregor. He's been recast so that might be what's causing confusion. He's still the obscenely tall bloke though (you can see the marked difference between him and Tywin).

[Malachi]

Oh and Margeary really seems way more fleshed out than in the books, I wonder if she really does replace the Queen of Thorns. Which would be a shame, somewhat.

[sporty]

So it was the new Mountain, looks quite similar to Ser Amory when clad in steel, which is also generic Lannister style now. The height works, noticed this as well, but the previous actor also had the matching stout build, while this one appears to be more slender. If they had a replacement, I don't fully understand why they went with Ser Amory last episode. Splits Raff the Sweetling and the Tickler+Polliver between two lords. Probably wanted to build up some resentment towards Amory Lorch (as if being a Lannister bannerman wasn't enough ).

Read book one's chapter about the battle of the Stark foot against Tywin's host again, made me appreciate the show's lack of combat footage again. The portrayal of Tyrion fighting is nonsensical and largely superfluous, and the slapstick lessens the impact of brutal warfare, a low point in the books that saw a huge improvement in the show, even if that wasn't completely without slapstick either.

Spoiler

The show probably won't be able to avoid all combat scenes during the battle for King's Landing, though if I remember correctly it wasn't as bad as that previous chapter.

[Starfisher]

They have to save their money for

Spoiler

the Blackwater, jesus I hope they don't fuck up the Blackwater

which is going to be quite expensive to do properly, even to do at all.

[Kirjava]

Would make sense that they manage that (Starfisher's spoiler), given how much money they must have saved from not showing any other battles... So disappointed about the early fade-out on Robb's attack this episode. I thought something was wrong with the screen.

[Malachi]

Yeah, the lack of actual battles is becoming annoying, although I prefer it this way than the show being cancelled due to too fat a budget.

Spoiler

But they must give us Blackwater. "Blackwater" is actually the name of an episode in this season, so it's probably going to focus on the very battle itself.

[Akranadas]

The book/show was never really about the battles but the aftermath and what it does to the characters.

[Kirjava]

I know, and I like that about it, but (for me at least) a chunk of the appeal for shows like GoT is getting a good taste of cold steel. Ned and Jory vs Jaime and the Lannister guards in season 1 was one of the most dramatic moments IMO- I just want a little bit more to make my hair stand on end. Even just a longer camera shot of Robb's line of horse, his bannermen roaring, "THE KING IN THE NORTH!", would have been delightful. As it is, we've seen more pork sword action than actual fighting, in a show that is ostensibly about a war! Oh well, I still love it.

[mlai]

Have to agree. At the very least they should have filmed the cavalry beginning to charge out of the woods. Shooting a close-up of their faces and then immediately fading to black? Is it really that expensive to shoot some guys charging on horses?

Thanks everyone for making this thread spoiler-free for the non-reading viewers.

[sporty]

Do [Starfisher's spoiler] properly? If I remember correctly this event is featured in several chapters of two different POVs, and that's without directly depicting the most important part of it... best one can hope for is a good selection I think.
Really don't mind the lack of large battle depictions, Akranadas stated the reason why well. The little doses of violence like Yoren in the last episode or the events I hope for in the next episode make up for it in my opinion.

[SilverTabby]

I think that nurse, her discussion with Robb and his reaction to her words were purely there to show he's not a thoughtless bastard like every other would-be king out there, he actually cares. He's *nice*.

I thought the chap they called "the Mountain" was far too slender in the shoulders. Didn't we meet Gregor in season 1? He was the one who killed his horse after Loras used a mare in heat whilst jousting with him...?

Roose Bolton wasn't a bad casting in my opinion. It's his bastard they have to get right, he's the scary one we should hate.

I'm glad Daenerys went straight to Qarth and they skipped the pointless chunk in the middle. It makes more sense for her to *need* to get in, rather than be shifting from a comfortable abandoned villa.

[Starfisher]

Yeah they had to recast Gregor after the original guy (who was perfect and worked his ass off for it) bailed to do some other movie. So they gave it to another 7 foot tall dude who lacks the physique to pull it off convincingly.

about my previous spoiler

The Blackwater isn't the sort of thing you can just fade out from - it's the defining set piece and climactic event of the second book. How the hell they pull off the river on fire, the chain and all that stuff is hard to say - although it looks like they're not going to do the chain, since by now Tyrion should have been worrying about getting it made and installed.

[Kirjava]

Starfisher, the original guy (Conan Stevens, who also played a hulking brute in Spartacus: Vengeance) seems to say on his website that he wasn't asked to be Gregor Clegane in season 2 of Game of Thrones...

I was looking forward to being able to reprise the role for season 02, but it seems like HBO decided to go in a different direction for the 2nd season and I will not be playing Ser Gregor this time around which is a pity.

Of course, if I were asked to appear in season 03 I would be very excited to do so.

[Akranadas]

Most likely didn't want to pay him for appearing for about 30 seconds (if he doesn't crop up again in the rest of the season)

[Kirjava]

Focusing on something different- humour- several scenes stood out for me this week, which I don't think we've appreciated enough.

1) The two Lannister soldiers at the beginning, essentially having the discussion which has been played on every forum with an interest in Game of Thrones across the internet: who's the best swordsman in the series? Also, fart joke.

2) Bronn: "There's no cure for being a c*nt."

3) Renly meets Stannis. "Born in salt and fire? Is he a ham?" Plus bonus funny points for Renly's, "Look at my massive army, just over that hill conveniently out of camera shot." I lol'd.

- - - - - - - - -

Also (Warning: HERE BE SPOILERS): Interview with Oona Chaplin, who plays Robb's battlefield nurse.

[Malachi]

Roose Bolton wasn't a bad casting in my opinion. It's his bastard they have to get right, he's the scary one we should hate.

I disagree.

The Boltons

They're both supposed to be scary. It's just that Ramsay is a sadistic monster in human skin, whereas Roose is a cold, methodical guy, who uses fear as a practical tool. The guy in the show didn't strike me as out of ordinary at all, except that he was talking about flaying people.

[edit:]

Kirjava's link

So, they're apparently not going to include the Westerlings at all, eh? Can't say I'mvery happy about it, but we'll see how this is handled. The show was supposed to diverge from the books after all.

[sporty]

With them using almost the entire episode opening to introduce her character, you just knew something was up. Skeptical if this can work out as well, especially if it does mean skipping the related characters.
Roose looked fitting, but didn't act that way. His presence is supposed to be unsettling, it's emphasised during book one that Robb is scared of him (he doesn't openly show this of course), this didn't come across well during the episode. As noted by Kirjava, him talking quietly might have helped, or maybe they can fit in a leech scene, even if he won't be at you-know-where apparently. Simply talking about flaying didn't really cut it, but that might be different for those who aren't callous due to the books.

Another thought about Roose

Since he's with Robb now, how can they show Bolton systematically weakening the other major lords of the North by sending their troops into certain defeats? An important part of the "oh shit" revelation about him. Then again, they'll have at least a whole nother season to fit this in, I shouldn't worry too much. His original command in the book got transformed into a suicide mission during last season anyway.

[Kirjava]

I think it's important to keep in mind the differences between tv and book. With the books, these characters are perpetually there, at our fingertips. If we don't remember a character, we can nip back right there and then and remind ourselves. TV dynamics are obviously different. Roose, as such, needs to be doing something fairly regularly. As such, to introduce him in one of the last episodes as a commander and then have him do not very much else until the next season might have weakened the character for audiences.

[DeafMute]

This picture made me chuckle.

[Starfisher]

I thought something similar, oddly enough. That whole scene was somewhat odd to me, but I can't put my finger on it.

[DeafMute]

From what Ive read some people think she didnt show because of how ill-fed the dragons were, others think if she showed them they'd all be killed and the dragons taken. Whilst others say she stood her ground in a rather immature way because shes 14yrs old in the books.

And apprantly she misprounces qarth because fans of the books have often debated how its pronouced. how she said it the first time before reaching the city is the correct way, which is why for soe reason she mis-pronouced it this time to show which version was correct. Crazy.

I thought you guys said magic didnt play a role in this series?
Whats up with shadow daemon coming from the red lady?

[Starfisher]

Magic plays a role in the series. It's just always more of a background role. It's not like Wheel of Time where every single main character is magic in some way, with godlike powers being the norm. In SOIAF, magic is more of an elemental force that only a few characters seem to have a grasp on, and it's a lot less .. transactional? as it is in other series. Remember Luwin telling Bran that maybe magic worked in the past, but it doesn't work now? Or how Tyrion laughs at "snarks and grumpkins" at the Wall? That's how most of the characters see it, and from their perspective all the evidence does tend to point that way, since magic is rarely seen, or is only evident in history.

[Malachi]

If the Quarthenes were going to kill Dany and her host for her dragons, they could have easily done it anyway, after she disagreed to show them. She pretty much went all idiot Viserys-like in that scene.

[mlai]

I didn't know who you ppl were talking about (Roose Bolton), had to rewatch a bit of eps. 4 to check. So... this guy is supposed to be a sadist or something? Didn't seem that way to me; I didn't remember him at all because he seemed to be just another military advisor lord. Quite sensible and calm, if I had to remark on any sort of impression.

I agreed with Dany that she didn't need to show off her dragonlings to those ppl. Either they help her or they do not; showing them she had some week-old dragonlings wouldn't have changed that. It would have only put her in a more vulnerable position because then they would know for sure that she has real live valuable dragons, and no means to defend them.