The Fitness Thread!

[mlai]

I don't know what Uni you guys are at. Back when I was at Uni, I ate real well since the cafeteria is right next to my dorm (a cafeteria next to every dorm complex).
I drank 1 glass of milk and 1 glass of juice for every meal, and there was this Dutch(?) cafeteria lady who loved to say "I give you more" in her yodeling accent.

[Starfisher]

So you haven't yet told me your experience on how to eat more.
I mean, ok, you say "Eat more." All well and good. But, how?
If you were a skinny dude, then that means you also had to overcome the "Ok I know I must eat more, but how do I stuff all this food down day after day when I'm not hungry? And where do I find the time? I eat this much and all I feel like doing is lie down, how am I supposed to study/work?"
Keep in mind you/me are not starting from "anorexic habits" to "eating normally." You/me are starting from "eating so much that other ppl gawk with envy" to "now eat twice that amount."

Step 0 is deciding that you really want to gain weight. I'm not trying to make you do that.

Step 1 is accepting that you actually don't eat that much.

Because Step 2 is eating more.

Complete step 1 first. Weigh and measure everything you eat for a week. This will prepare your mind for step 2, which will be much easier once you have an actual idea of how much you're really eating. After you eat an extra bit of food at every meal, start ramping up to a gallon of milk a day ON TOP of that extra food. That takes a couple weeks for most people. I have to buy the lactose reduced milk to do this because otherwise I die. You will be full all the time and it will not be easy. If it were easy, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You don't have to worry about refrigerating the milk since you'll be drinking it before it will go bad, and warm milk is easier to drink than cold milk.

This will cause you to gain weight.

Look, guys, I know it sounds unbelievably arrogant of me to tell you what you're doing as if I know better than you, but run the experiment. Every. Single. Time. I've gotten into this argument online or seen it play out, the skinny dude ends up saying, "well crap." This was me at one point. I've yet to meet anyone with a magic metabolism, and again, I was 6'3" and 155lbs most of my life, and would have SWORN UP AND DOWN that I could not gain weight to save my own life no matter what I did. I was wrong.

And again, none of this says you HAVE to try to gain 40lbs or whatever. That only makes sense in a small set of contexts, usually centered around a heavy weight training program and goals that include gaining 40lbs. If you WANT to, you can. Guaranteed. But wanting to is a pre-requisite, and there's nothing in the world that says you have to want to.

[Gorb]

Starfisher, the thing is here I have been saying things, repeatedly, that you don't seem to acknowledge.

@mlai: not everyone is lucky enough to get easy access to (free/catered?) convenient food (with biased staff ) or enough funding to secure decent food all of the time. I have a part-time job that effectively pays for my food and bills that I have to work around a final year work schedule. If I can't afford time to work, I have to deal with a bowl of pasta. This isn't a sob story, this is just me doing what I can. Also, a discussion better saved for a more appropriate thread

[Starfisher]

What have you said, exactly? Near as I can tell, you're saying that either you're special or your family is special, supporting this with random anecdotes, when the weight of the empirical evidence shows that everyone who thinks they're special turns out to be more or less just like everyone else with a different appetite setpoint. Until you actually produce a food log showing that you and/or your family actually eat huge amounts of calories without gaining weight, you're basically following the script every skinny person follows when confronted like this.

And if you and your family actually eat massive amounts of calories without gaining weight, please submit your results to the nearest health researcher because you are truly unique and are probably an amazing research opportunity.

[Fish Of Doom]

Well obviously I don't mean bent pressing the machine. I mean the free plates that are used for the barbell attached to the machine. This particular set of plates have handles on them.

ooohhhh, i see. much better then, shouldn't be too different to doing it with a kettlebell. here are two nice little tutorials on it, btw. also, start light

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re: how much you're eating: the only way to properly settle this is for you guys to count your calories. worst thing that can happen is that you're probably consuming low-calorie meals, and might be able to find replacements to eat more energy-dense food while not significantly increasing the amount of food you eat. also heavy exercise will factor in heavily into that, since you'll be expending more energy. squat 1.5x your bodyweight and you're more likely to want or be able to eat a lot more. there are guys who are of normal height, but fucking huge (think around 1.70 mts and 90kg) who can get away with stuff like eating 10 eggs in a single meal, because of all the energy they use up in general.

[Gorb]

What have you said, exactly? Near as I can tell, you're saying that either you're special or your family is special, supporting this with random anecdotes, when the weight of the empirical evidence shows that everyone who thinks they're special turns out to be more or less just like everyone else with a different appetite setpoint. Until you actually produce a food log showing that you and/or your family actually eat huge amounts of calories without gaining weight, you're basically following the script every skinny person follows when confronted like this.

And if you and your family actually eat massive amounts of calories without gaining weight, please submit your results to the nearest health researcher because you are truly unique and are probably an amazing research opportunity.

I'm not saying my family, exactly, is special. I'm saying that your broad and assumptive generalisation that everybody must conform to your specific notions that you have found out yourself (irrespective of your effort, given that you're handwaving people whose cases don't agree with your norm(s) away) are just that - broad and assumptive, and I have been asking you what to make of a case example, i.e. myself and my brother. I refrained from using other examples in that my father quit smoking in recent years and also works at his own restaurant and is thus not exactly an ideal subject for evaluating weight gain and/or metabolism.

I'm not saying we eat "massive amounts". I am simply saying that your insinuation that we don't (or that I/we have not, regularly, eaten an amount that would cause others to gain weight) is far too presumptive and you should perhaps acknowledge that your theory isn't as watertight as you are making it out to be. I have supported this with "random anecdotes", i.e. actual comparisons between myself and other people based on measurements from the same set(s) of scales over a similar period(s) of time.

[Starfisher]

You could simply do the experiment. I'm not kidding when I say that literally every time this is done, people discover that they aren't calorie burning machines. The extremely few people who can eat mountains of food without gaining weight either have significant metabolic disorders (like untreated type-1 diabetes) or are hyper-athletes like Mike Phelps. If you are truly what you say you are, you are unique and unknown to nutrition science. That's not "handwaving", that's a bald statement of what I've learned over the past few years.

Your brother and you are probably a lot like my brother and I. I'm not kidding when I say that I've said exactly what you're saying now in the past. I've seen and heard other people swear up and down using the exact same terminology. Then if they actually take the time to measure themselves, it turns out they're eating a fairly modest amount of food relative to their size. People are almost always shocked about how much they eat unless they're already paying close attention. Fat people underreport, skinny people overreport.

I can't be arsed to dig up studies right now because I'm lazy, so I'll leave you with the thoughts of one of the more respected nutrition gurus, Lyle McDonald. We can agree to disagree or you can run the experiment sometime and then we'll be able to settle it either way.

[DeafMute]

Stop wasting your time starfisher.

[Fish Of Doom]

*does a little happy dance to make you stop arguing while burning a few calories*

[Fish Of Doom]

on a more positive note, this is amazing:

[Gorb]

@Starfisher: fair enough

I'll agree to disagree, but I will definitely attempt the experiment when I'm eating a more regular diet. The only reason I wouldn't do it now, as I have said above/before, is because at uni my diet is screwed.

[Starfisher]

@deafmute:
I don't think this is a waste of time, and that's an uncharitable post to say the least. Discussions aren't discussions without disagreement, so there's no need to be so dismissive.

@Gorb:
At my university, the running joke was that they laced the food with laxatives, because only a few possessing mighty digestive tracts were able to eat a lot without suffering on the toilet immediately thereafter. So I can sympathize with your dietary woes ;P

[Shoota Fodder]

My diet sucks at uni. I literally can't afford to eat when I'm on campus. My uni's in the rather privileged west end of glasgow.

[DeafMute]

At the time of my last post I felt asif yourself saying what youve said what, like atleast 4 times and the message still isnt hitting home, I just dont see the point in repeating yourself, he either takes on the advice or doesnt =P

Can bring a horse to water, cant force it to drink =P

[Mullertime]

@Fisher
That's mostly true...

But interestingly enough, people who believe that they can eat tons and not gain weight are actually helped out (or hindered, depending on what you're shooting for) by this very belief. It turns out that the placebo / self-fulfilling prophecy can manifest itself in weight gain/loss of all things!

There was a study by Alia Crum & Ellen Langer: Performed on a group of hotel cleaners. They took a group of about 80 and split them into 2 groups. The control were given a presentation about the benefits about exercise. The second group had just the same, but with an extra bonus: They were basically told "Wow! Do you realise how many calories you're burning off", with leaflets covering the amount of calories they'd be burning with their work. (They also took a questionnaire about their lifestyles, just to help check for external factors)

A month later, they went back - Where both groups had done pretty much the same amount of work. The lifestyle questionnaires also showed that there weren't any drastic changes in lifestyle - enough to account for changes in health. Yet... the "Wow! Exercise!" group had all lost weight and lowered their BMI.

Obviously, the amount you consume is the vital factor here... but perhaps the "I'm skinny and can eat tons" camp retain their stance because that very thinking helps them retain that exact shape. In all your cases, you've basically changed their perception - which in turn would help to gaining weight (Not to take anything away from the increased portions, of course! )

Thinking about it - That belief leads to all the points you mentioned (which I wholeheartedly agree with) - Like how skinny people remember binges more. Speaking personally, I pride myself as slim - which makes me more likely to feel disinclined to eat if I don't really want to. For example, I can easily resist the temptation to smother my face with chocolates brought into work because my mind says "I'm a skinny dude. I don't need that shit"

[mlai]

@ Mullertime:
That... doesn't make sense. The ppl who feel immune to weight gain, and therefore can decide to eat more freely... does NOT eat more freely?

@ Starfisher:
This week I started to eat 2 plates of lunch always, and in addition a full glass of soy milk slurpee. And I started deadlifts and front squats (holy shit I'm a convert, this is awesome I'm still hurtin' I feel huge).
I have no idea how to count calories. I have never done so in my life, and I'm not about to learn. It's a f'ing mystery-science.
I think in order to count calories, I have to cook all my meals? F that.

EDIT: Ok, wait. How do you count calories? I mean, like, walk me thru. Is there a good website? And what about miscellaneous take-out lunches, how do you quantify those?

[Starfisher]

Counting calories is easy if you cook your own food. You plug your ingredients into something like nutrition data and get an idea. You only have to do this for a week or so, and after that you'll be able to eyeball a portion of your common foods and have an decent idea. It won't be exact, but for our purposes a ballpark estimate is good enough.

If you're eating out... yeah that's hard. Either you have to ask the restaurant or basically guess by looking at the ingredients and adding them up yourself. In the US they're starting to force restaurants to put up calorie counts for their food, but it's all going to guesses anyway since portion sizes will vary from meal to meal. Honestly there probably isn't a good way to keep good track if you eat out all the time.

The point of counting calories varies depending on your goals:

1) Losing weight? Then you actually care about the exact value, and will have to take steps to figure out what you're eating. OF course if you're losing weight, you probably shouldn't be eating out all that much.
2) Gaining weight? Then you just want a rough value so you can convince yourself to eat more ;P

If you're going for #2, then the tried and true "simple" method is the scale. Weigh yourself at the beginning of the week. Weigh yourself at the same time of day at the end of the week. Is the number higher? If yes, you are overeating. Pat yourself on the back. If no, you know that however much you ate that week wasn't enough. Add more food. Liquid calories (if you have access to full fat real milk - like from a cow or a goat - it's the ultimate "mass gain supplement") help a lot.

[mlai]

I swear just after ONE session of deadlifts/ front squats/ bench/ weighted chin ups, I already look bigger, even after 2 days break. This is scary awesome.

[Fish Of Doom]

free-weight power!

on another free-weighty note, i bought the kindle version of rippetoe's starting strength, 3rd edition. seriously good purchase, even if you already do the lfits properly, simply because of the detail into which it goes regarding the science of it all (physics, kinesiology, other physiological data, etc).

[aethurrose]

I like to do aerobics to keep myself healthy and fit.

[Fish Of Doom]

in celebration of my sneaking liquid chalk into the gym, double overhanding 105kg and mixed gripping 120, here's a cool deadlift article by mark rippetoe, who's essentially the moe of barbell training: http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=4952486

[Fish Of Doom]

got another cool link detailing the "big 3" lifts for complete newbies to weightlifting: http://ironlooks.com/uploads/THE_LAYMAN_big3.pdf

[Fish Of Doom]

a nice convo between mark rippetoe and jim wendler (one of the best-known powerlifters in the world):

http://vimeo.com/11220710
http://vimeo.com/11222955
http://vimeo.com/11225714
http://vimeo.com/11234918

[Fish Of Doom]

*gives the thread CPR*

on a break from all the weightlifting plugging, this is a very good video that might be of use to probably every single person here, since we all have no life and spend all day at the computer

[Shoota Fodder]

I thought I'd add that in the last week, I've gained roughly 4 pounds of upper body muscles. And all I did was eat more, drink lots of milk and do about 8 sets of press ups every 2 days. First 4 sets are of close-hand press ups for the triceps, then 4 sets of wide-hand press ups for my chest.

Bloody strange how little I have to do, like that literally takes 20 minutes out of a day which I normally do shortly before I go to bed. I'll keep things updated, but I'm genuinely amazed at how much money I've wasted in the past on a gym membership.

I'll keep you posted, this could just have been a fluke, but hopefully not. 9 Stone here I come!

[Fish Of Doom]

yay!

careful with the pushups, though, excessive pushing with no back work can result in shortened anterior deltoids and pectoral muscles (personal experience, it's happened to me). see if you can sneak in some pull-ups or inverted rows as well (or renegade rows if you have dumbbells or something similar), or at least some good stretching for the shoulders and pecs (shoulder dislocates and scapular wall-slides are your friends).

the benefit of having a gym membership is that you can pretty much do anything in a proper gym ("proper" being one with not only a good array of weights, but also gymnastics rings, mats, paralettes, swedish bars, balls, etc), but strictly speaking, it's not really necessary as long as you have the proper equipment (if any is needed) for what you want to do.

[Shoota Fodder]

Well I do rock climbing regularly for about 2 hours every week. Would that count as doing pull ups?

That was the main reason I started doing the close handed press ups in the first place, to increase the strength of my triceps for rock climbing. Of course, now I'm heavier so I guess it all balances out.

[Fish Of Doom]

it probably would, yes. the back strength angle is covered, as should be actively stretching the delts and pectorals

tried one-arm pushups yet, btw? they rock tremendously.

[Shoota Fodder]

I haven't no. I honestly have no idea how to do them! *Vanishes into the internet to find a tutorial*

[Fish Of Doom]

www.beastskills.com/tutorials/tutorials/45

i prefer them with the arm on the lower back instead of pressing against the leg, though

[Harmanoff]

Quite a few good variations there even if you do the regular two hand push up. The divebomb version is a real killer

[mlai]

In the past 3 weeks, I'm broken through my "plateau" by doing what Starfisher and some of yous said!
I gained 4 (visible upper body) lbs in 3 weeks (for me this is a huge deal)!
Thank you Starfisher! Thank you Relicnews!

Edit: This should be a tagline (even better with a photo)... I got BIG by reading Relicnews!

[Fish Of Doom]

yay! congrats!

i'm somewhat stuck at 59 kg currently, but i think it's mostly because i've been sleeping like shit.

[Starfisher]

That has to be the first time anyone has thanked me for anything on the internet. *sheds a tear*

Awesome, dude, and keep it up!

[Bonnet]

So I do something called intermittent fasting, which leangains has a great explanation on. In the past four months I lost 7 pounds of body fat and gained 3.5 pounds of muscle moving me to 10% body fat. My lifts are now in the ceiling to. At 155 pounds, I max around 275 on back squats and bench around 170.

[DeafMute]

Figure Id kick this thread to the front page to see how those who discussed within are doing between then and now. Anyone else is clearly more then welcome to join in.
Ive packed on the weight and lifting big, Ive went from 11stone to 13 and am now comfortly sitting at 15 1/2stone, lifting twice what I was before and am heavily carving into myself cardio wise. Feeling really good and my confidence has shot up ten fold. But not in a "I love myself" way, best Ive ever felt.

[TheDividedGod]

Just discovered this several weeks ago. It is an EXCELLENT stretch drill, especially when done with an actual cup or something else that requires balancing in the palm of the hand. As a martial artist with a background primarily in striking/stand-up, shoulder tension and fatigue is a huge deal in extended sparring sessions and tournaments. Keeping your hands up and protecting the face and centerline is of the utmost importance in nearly all striking arts, and this drill has improved my flexibility and endurance tenfold just in the last month or so alone. You WILL feel the burn from just 5 minutes or so of this, it's quite amazing. Literally puts the shoulder in just about every angle and position it can take without undue stress on tendons and your musculature. Don't forget to do them in reverse as well.

link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ffpcRxWgsg

As he says, it's good for grapplers and submission practitioners as well, since shoulder flexibility can really make the difference if you need to get out of a tight spot. Disclaimer - I know it looks silly, just TRY it for a few minutes and you will see what I mean.

[Shoota Fodder]

I've reached a decent wee plateau. I never really wanted to get 'big', I just didn't want to be a bundle of spanners anymore. So I've jumped from 8 Stone to 9 Stone of more or less just muscle which I'm nice and comfortable with. Still the smallest and boniest looking guy in most groups, but I feel good and don't mind as much anymore.

[PetarB]

Just went through page 2 of this thread again. Deafmute's example 'Zyzz' is now dead, probably due to party drugs in Thailand. A body-builder friend of mine knew him - not well - but it's a small world!
I guess it goes to show, being buff is only one aspect of a healthy lifestyle.

[Starfisher]

Yeah, I would actually say that bodybuilders are probably some of the least healthy people around. Getting into contest shape is not healthy full stop. Of course if "bodybuilder" is just "guy who lifts" then that's a different story.

The Leangains guy is an interesting case. I often wonder if he's actually clean, simply because body fat THAT LOW is well outside healthy norms observed just about anywhere. IF is a great strategy for weight loss and potentially general health, if you can make it work. But year-round 5% bodyfat just doesn't seem right.

Since this thread died I:
1) Lost ~15 lbs with Leangains-ish training and paleo-ish dieting, got in shape for various summer activities and lost some strength in the process.
2) Started regaining that weight and strength

[MagosMechanicus]

Seems everyone in this thread is always on the opposite road to where I am, which is dedicated weight loss. Been doing it since early summer last year, when having swelled all the way up to about 135 kg I realised my lifestyle wasn't working for me any more. I was terribly out of shape, couldn't fit comfortably in airplane seats, had considerable trouble getting well-fitting clothes and was in general not happy with my body.
I changed eating habits and took up weekly badminton with a classmate. Eventually I had the energy to supplement the badminton with some other aerobic/fat burn exercises. My goal is to get below 90 and then level off; I'm a naturally heavily built man and don't want to go overboard on this either. Besides, my girlfriend has given orders not to lose too much more (She says I'm getting bony already). Shouldn't be too long now; today I hit 92.0 kg. The change has been so gradual I rarely notice it day-to-day, but it still strikes me when I pull out some of my old trousers. 10 inches lost off the waist-line definitely shows, and feels good.

[Fish Of Doom]

IT LIIIIIVES!!!

my progress:

i've massively altered my routine from what i was doing at the start, but won't go into details or i'll start nerding out also started taking some protein powder, but it's too early to talk about results for now.

bodyweight: went up to 60-ish kg, now down to 59 since i was getting fat, still looking to get up to around 65 eventually. looking a bit more muscular at a similar bodyfat level

lifting stats: got a bodyweight overhead press, then derped and lost it (currently aiming to get it back), whereas my squat shot up like a motherfucking spaceship. haven't deadlifted in a while so dunno, but i have started worshipping the farmer's walk and the one-arm dumbbell row. i've found that presses for sets of 5, squats for sets of 3 and as much upper body pulling as i can do until my arms fall off seems to work magnificently for me, but i still need to get some more deadlifting in because my hamstrings are shitty.

@TDG: FUCK YES! teacups are awesome . on a similar note, one movement i like quite a lot for shoulder/upper back loosening (and which is easier than teacups) is to raise both arms straight up, lower the hands to behind the head (as if comfortably leaning back on a beach chair) while puffing the chest out, and then pushing both palms straight out to the sides. works shoulder mobility, rearranges the thoracic spine, and stretches the arms themselves quite nicely, IME.

@magos: nice! what are you doing for the weight loss?

[Kirjava]

Depressing topic for me.

Having just moved countries, I've completely fallen out of my routine, so running has gone by the wayside and I'm waiting until I get paid for the first time in a couple of weeks to join another gym. Feels completely horrible, I feel tired all the time (like, exhausted all day, from waking to sleeping) and I'm highly aware that there's... perhaps a little more movement on my chest/stomach than I'm comfortable with.

Hurry up payday.

[Bonnet]

The Leangains guy is an interesting case. I often wonder if he's actually clean, simply because body fat THAT LOW is well outside healthy norms observed just about anywhere.

Yeah, though honestly I was at about 7-9% (measure by pinch test) for almost a year now so :shrug:. I am up to 11% right now as I decided to add muscle, moving me from 155 to 165. I have added 50% to my previous bench max, and my dead lifts and squats are absolutely insane now (5x5 @ 275). I will probably start cutting again soon, though my goal is to keep the 165 bench mark and loose about 3lbs body fat.

[Moe]

Ive packed on the weight and lifting big, Ive went from 11stone to 13 and am now comfortly sitting at 15 1/2stone

What the hell kind of unit is this
As if pounds weren't bad enough

So for all the normal people wondering wtf you just said, he's at 217 pounds / 98kg.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I'm sort of wanting some advice here... at the moment I'm trying to shift some of the weight from my belly without losing it from other areas. I'm doing a decent number of stomach crunches most evenings, which seems to be working to some extent, but if there's any other techniques people know that'd be awesome.

[Fish Of Doom]

just remembered. if anyone's looking for fitness resources, i highly recommend dan john's stuff. the dude is pretty much THE sanest person in the world of fitness, and his stuff definitely reflects it.

here's a 50 min video of him giving a seminar and explaining squatting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ym18x-Nl6Q

[Fish Of Doom]

@n0z3: you can't actually shift fat from specific places, as fat distribution, afaik, is purely genetic (and if it were possible to spot reduce, methods for it would actually exist and people would make shittons of money of them. alas, they don't). what you CAN do:

1- experiment and see if just losing a bit more fat doesn't just strip off the one in your abdomen and leave the rest alone. this would depend on your genetics and the only way to tell is to actually lose the fat.

2- make your entire musculature bigger AND lose fat: having bigger muscles everywhere will let you lose the fat without looking smaller on other areas. plus, bigger muscles (on a more serious note, bigger muscle do mean that given the same volume of fatty tissue, it will be more spread out so you'll look leaner; more so if you also lose fat)

crunches therefore won't actually make you lose fat from your abdomen, but they do add to your total training workload, ergo to the calorie burning, and they'll give you a baseline level of abdominal fitness, so there'll be something to show once the fat is gone. that said, more exercise in general (bodyweight squats, push-ups, inverted rows, sprinting, jogging, jumping, etc) will help even more (both with calorie expenditure and abdominal development, as would lifting weights, if possible, BUT the key to overall fat loss is diet, since it's much easier to ingest fewer calories than it is to burn off the excess (both would be ideal).

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I just mostly would like to lose the belly fat but not if it means the boobs go as well...

[Fish Of Doom]

well, as i said, no way to tell without actually losing the fat and seeing where it comes off first. alternatively, you could look into adding a bit of muscle mass to your abs and seeing if that helps (adding some on the hips, thighs and lower back can balance the waist-hip ratio if needed. in fact, since you mention wanting to keep the boobs, you might be interested in what some heavy squats can do for ze backside as well).