Avengers Assemble

[OhJohnNo]

Captain America 2 is on the way apparently, so maybe they'll cover his relationship with SHIELD in more detail there.

[Kirjava]

I didn't consider what SHIELD was doing that bad tbh. Covert organisation (surely not so covert now...?) with remit with extraterrestrial defence is using extraterrestrial weaponry to defend us? Oh noes, the horror!

[Starblade]

Oh noes, the horror!

Also they have the ability to wiretap all of Earth and answer to men who don't care about nuking NYC (with the nukes already on board the flying aircraft carrier), led by a loose cannon cop who doesn't play by the rules and had some insidious "phase 2" in case the whole Avengers thing didn't pan out. The film casts a lot of suspicion on the agency. As quickly as it was forgotten about by them, even the heroes picked up on it.

[Bowkers]

I thought it was Iron Man 3 next?

[Starblade]

I wouldn't be surprised if everyone got another set of movies, then Avengers 2, but I've heard that both CA2 and IM3 are coming.

[Kirjava]

@Starblade: it might have made a bit of sense if those were the things they picked up on, but nope, it's all, "Fury, in spite of the myriad of excellent reasons why are you using alien guns and why didn't you tell us?"

[Ewokz]

@Starblade with the Captain America thing wasn't he taking Fury to hand before BW entered and revealed Loki's plan about the hulk after which they all started bickering and shouting? After that it was battle the hulk + hawkeye ---> mourn death ---> NYC.

There wasn't really anywhere for Cap to get pissy about Phase two without fucking up earths defence, everything happened very fast after he discovered the Hydra stash.

[Starblade]

@Starblade: it might have made a bit of sense if those were the things they picked up on, but nope, it's all, "Fury, in spite of the myriad of excellent reasons why are you using alien guns and why didn't you tell us?"

Right, it wasn't very well handled and is my biggest complaint with the film, since I'm guessing it's going to be brought up in later movies.

There wasn't really anywhere for Cap to get pissy about Phase two without fucking up earths defence, everything happened very fast after he discovered the Hydra stash.

That's why it felt shoehorned to me, like they shoved in it just to set up for another film, but they didn't do it in a very good way.

[LoCo]

Bowkers: Right. Now that you've given reasons for why you thought it was overhyped, care to elaborate about how it was simply "watchable" rather than "well worth the money" or "really great" or "the best marvel movie so far" or any of the other opinions shared in the thread?

Watchable implies that you would watch it if there was nothing else good on. Which implies that it doesn't reach the standard of good.

I'd like to know how you reached that conclusion. What stopped it from being better? What harmed it?

Also, what wasn't explained about Black Widow and Hawkeye?

I didn't accuse you of trolling. I said that without any attempt on your part to elaborate or explain what you said in your post, it seemed like it was a troll. Your post was a direct disagreement with everyone else in the thread (even many who could reasonably be called pessimists) and you gave no reason for disagreeing. That to me seems to be an attempt to troll.

Starblade: You're the only person I've come across who has that opinion, and that's counting the numerous Cap fans I know. I'm failing to understand what you had a problem with since it seemed rather consistent with all the Cap I've read, and the Cap movie, and showed that Cap can actually deal with the violent threatening badguys before attacking his allies. Doing anything else would have been stupid. Cap is not stupid.

Having a strong moral code doesn't mean one has to leave their brains behind.

I'm sorry that blemished the movie for you though.

In the comics it takes Cap a while to finally dump SHIELD and Fury because Cap understands that not everyone is as good as him, that not everyone can stop Thor's hammer with a shield. So he stays for a while trying to change SHIELD by example, showing them how to do better. But eventually he gets fed up and leaves. With the movie, there isn't time to show all that. It's also just the first movie. Besides, right at the start you can see Cap's hesitations about SHIELD. Fury comes to him and Cap scoffs at him "You got another mission for me?", but the only reason Cap comes along is because of what Fury responds with about saving the world. That's Cap's aim. SHIELD's shady nature wasn't the plot of the movie. Saving the world from Loki was.

It seems odd to complain about the plot not being something else when you don't seem to have any problem with the plot being what it is.

[DeafMute]

Agree with Bowkers, good film but not nearly as godlike as people are making it out to be.

[Stripe7]

After the Avengers the cost/value of having Joss Whedon as director/producer has probably gone up significantly. Will he be making more of these movies?

[fuggles]

Great film, really enjoyed it. I'm fascinated that I can't stand Captain America - I couldn't even sit through the Cap film and yet I find people who love him, he's just such a Leonardo character - a necessary evil in an ensemble but so dull on his own. Maybe as I don't read the comics there is more to him than humourless man with a hubcap. Did they run out of material making that shield to make like a tank or something?

[Starblade]

It seems odd to complain about the plot not being something else when you don't seem to have any problem with the plot being what it is.

They tried to weave it into the plot and set up for the second movie but they half-assed it and ignored it after half a scene. Why bother even bringing it up if that's all you do with it? Save his indignation for the sequel. Have him, at most, start to notice a few things as sort of off, don't have him call it out then never mention it again, it just makes it look dumber when he inevitably does it again in a later film. Having his conflict be "I'm a supersoldier from 194X, now what do I do" would have been fine enough instead of "Now what do I do, are my morals relevant and hey what's SHIELD up to anyway". There isn't enough time to devote to it all and it showed.

I'm not upset about the plot not being exclusively that and the movie not being Captain America 2: Fuck the Other Guys, stop suggesting that. I think it would have been better to have dealt with it in another way.

Also since you brought up plot I like how the movie doesn't try to pretend the superheroes are in any real danger from the bad guys this time. Except for Iron Man running out of energy they basically smack everything down. It's a nice change of pace from "oh no is Batman going to die this time?! (no)".

With the movie, there isn't time to show all that.

Exactly. They put it in but didn't have the time to do anything useful with it.

[Croaxleigh]

I thought it was Iron Man 3 next?

Iron Man 3 is currently casting (with some of the roles cast tossing out a few hints toward at least part of the storyline) and is slated to start filming soon. Captain America 2 and Thor 2 are set to start either later this year or in 2013, I can't remember which. Avengers 2 starts off in 2014 I think. Doctor Strange and a few others (possibly including the Punisher, since Marvel got the rights back to the character and said they'd be doing something with him "soon", and Ant Man, since the whole reason Hank Pym wasn't included in this film being that Edgar Wright asked Marvel not to use Pym before his film was ready.) The only one who isn't in the lineup at the moment is Hulk, since as I mentioned before Marvel isn't sure how they want to use him right now and may keep him an Avengers-exclusive until at least after Avengers 2.

[Gorb]

Agree with Bowkers, good film but not nearly as godlike as people are making it out to be.

That's not actually what Bowks said at all, ya know

It's interesting to see people who have such a reaction to the film. I'm not saying "lol not allowed u must worship teh Whedon", but I'm expecting more than the one-liners we seem to be getting - especially since the favourable reviews are getting epically long!

[Misiok]

Actually, that shield is made from a mineral that's so rare it was used all up just to make that shield. Also, that rare mineral is also used by the Black Panther's kingdom/country/whatever it is, with their only one city fortress standing atop of a mountain. Made out of that mineral.

[Paladin]

Yeah, Cap's shield is almost the only thing in the Marvel Universe made out of Vibranium, aside from the Black Panther's weapons, and nobody can get at the Wakandans' vibranium reserve (The only known vibranium in existence) because the Wakandans will kick the ass of anyone who tries. Their tech level is ridiculously high.

Oh and Starblade...

Spoiler

I just went to see the movie a second time, just a few hours ago, so it's fresh in my mind and I went in with your gripes in mind, and I have to say I don't see it at all. Cap finds the Hydra weapons and confronts Fury about it, and that scene is the scene in which they all start bickering and Banner picks up the scepter (Though it's kind of split up with other bits that are happening simultaneously interwoven, so I could see why you might have remembered it as multiple scenes). So basically Cap gets sidetracked into a pissing match with Stark because Loki is using the scepter to mess with all of their heads.

Then the helicarrier is attacked, so they have to drop the argument and go fight.

When Cap and Stark decide to go fight Loki in New York, Stark says to Cap, "I'm not marching to Fury's fife." and Cap replies, "Neither am I. He has the same blood on his hands that Loki does.", and then something to the effect that they have to deal with Loki first (Sorry, I don't recall that line verbatim).

So I don't see where Cap "didn't care" or let it drop. He rides off on a motorcycle alone at the end. For all we know he's headed straight to Fury to kick his ass.

[Starblade]

Spoiler

Cap finds the Hydra weapons and confronts Fury about it, and that scene is the scene in which they all start bickering and Banner picks up the scepter (Though it's kind of split up with other bits that are happening simultaneously interwoven, so I could see why you might have remembered it as multiple scenes).

When Cap and Stark decide to go fight Loki in New York, Stark says to Cap, "I'm not marching to Fury's fife." and Cap replies, "Neither am I. He has the same blood on his hands that Loki does.", and then something to the effect that they have to deal with Loki first (Sorry, I don't recall that line verbatim).

Thanks, I must have misremembered when the two scenes were because of that. I must have missed this second line, but it still seems like it could have been done better to me. At least he didn't completely forget about it.

e: \/\/\/\/ Yeah, probably. It's a good subplot idea, I hope they stick with it.

[Dimension]

Given the timing of the whole incident, Starblade, I think a lot of your complaint will actually depend on how this whole issue will be handled by Cap in the next movie, since this one ended literally a few hours after that argument scene.

[Misiok]

So today it premiered in Poland, fucking finally I say. I finally were able to see it, and as it turned out I could choose between dubbing or just subs. Cool.

Anyway, to the opinions!

About that Cap thing

I think Captain reacted appropriately. I mean, you could clearly see the sadness in his eyes when he found out that the country he loved and served was turning more and more grey (probably he expected that it, someday, will turn completely black). But he also seemed to understand (or slowly begin to understand) the need for this, after all they were fighting with gods against gods, aliens and other. It didn't seem to be handwaved at all.

Also, the battles. Oh gods, the battles! So awesome, the banter so funny and even witty.

HULK

Hulk/Banner.....go smash! (BIG GREEN GRIN). Hulk vs Loki? Oh wow, that was hilarious. Poor Loki just lied there, dumbfounded. Especially ironic after his little 'I am better than you' speech.

And the other thing

Spoiler

Phil's death. Okay, he was one of the named less important guys, and his dead wasn't expected in the least. But the way everyone turned sad and depressed after this. Um, hello. I know Phil was awesome, known and whatnot, butr he wasn't the ONLY casualty there. This turned out a bit silly. Nice move by Fury to use this though.

Now, less spoilery - the council is what I'd expect it to be in real life, if we had super heroes. That is, dumb, fat politicians having no idea how war looks like and what enemies everyone faces. And grossly incompetend.


Also, the bonus scene. Did everyone catch why the Chitauri talked about how fighting with humanity is like courting with Death? Well, that's because Thanatos is literally in love with Death. Get it? Dum dum!!

And, my only gripe - Chitauri - looked cool, a bit insect-ish, but oh wow. The way

Spoiler

they got defeated and suddenly a magical handwave sweept across and turned them all off? What?

I did very like enjoy their design, even if it wasn't apparently true to their comic appearance. They reminded me of the Dark Eldar, except less competent and cool, but still okay. I mean, they looked like they tried to raid Manhattan (not Earth, their forces looked incredibly inadequate) for slaves and only for that. Cool space snake-whale beasts though.


Oh, also, the fuck is wrong with cinemas nowadays? Why, the hell, do I see a trailer of a movie, and get the 'Available in 3D. 2D in selected theatres'. What.The.Fuck? Since when did 2D turn into a rare commodity? I mean, holy hell people, I like the option of having to pick 2D or 3D, because I don't believe every movie benefits from 3D (this one didn't). Because I had to watch, an awesome movie, in shitty post 3D, that turns everything darker, more blurry and not only that but also increases the price of the ticket. And it's forced on me and turns 2D into an exclusive, limited deal. I. Do. Not. Like. That. Turned an awesome movie into incredibly good, darker than needed, movie.

[Starblade]

And, my only gripe - Chitauri - looked cool, a bit insect-ish, but oh wow. The way

I'm pretty sure that's just so they didn't have to have a scene and cutaway where they clean up the mess for a few hours.

[Saunders]

I imagined when they were all physically and mentally enslaved and controlled by other parties, and when the nuke hit that link was severed, so they upped and died.

[Misiok]

Well, that's the point Saunders. They were clearly biomechanical in nature and linked to their ship. Probably mindless drones indeed. And yes Starblade, I agree. Doesn't make it feel any less handwavey.

[Paladin]

Knowing Thanos, I'd guess that it was less a mindless drone issue, and more a fully sentient army that he'd made reliant on an external energy source to continue living. Just so that he could entertain himself by pulling the plug on random soldiers, or any that happened to offend him.

Besides, when your goal is to literally end all life in the Universe, because you have a crush on Death and you're trying to impress her (No, seriously), you obviously make sure that your army is set up in a way that you can terminate them all after they finish killing everyone else for you.

[Derivative]

Got a chance to see this movie and it was really enjoyable. Have no idea what the hulk said near the end there, too many people laughing. But I was a bit confused, who are these people? Did I miss something in the movie? Why was Captain America in ice? Who's this Thor guy? Were there previous movies? If so, does it matter what order I should watch them in?

[Langy]

I'm pretty sure you're making some kind of inept joke, but just in case you aren't and have been living under a rock somewhere for the past five years:

Yes, there were other movies. You can see the full list here. I'd suggest watching them in the order they were released, but most of them can be watched in any order - just watch Iron Man first before Iron Man 2.

[Paladin]

Honestly you could even skip Iron Man 2, it doesn't really give you much extra background for the Avengers.

And watch Captain America last, because it's better than the rest of them, and it will make you feel better after Thor disappoints you.

[Starblade]

Have no idea what the hulk said near the end there, too many people laughing.

He says "Puny god" after the smackdown.

Captain America and Iron Man 1 are tied for the best of the origin story films for me. Iron Man 2 was okay, and I didn't see Thor or Hulk.

[Derivative]

I've seen the Iron Man movies, but that was all. And noting that the two characters I asked about both had movies that came out in the same year I was unavailable, this would make sense. Time to visit the video rental store!

[Misiok]

@Paladin - actually watching Iron Man 2 is kind of important. Not only does it foreshadows Coulson's respect for Captain America, it also shows Tony's father, his father's work and how Tony matures a bit and does what he did with his Arc Reactor. I'd say it's kind of important too.

[Croaxleigh]

Viewing order I'd recommend.

1. Iron Man
2. The Incredible Hulk (overlaps with Iron Man 2)
3. Iron Man 2 (overlaps with Hulk)
4. Thor (end of Iron Man 2 overlaps with the middle-ish of Thor)
5. Captain America: The First Avenger (could also be put at the beginning from a chronological viewpoint, but the beginning and ending of the movie seem to take place after the other films and there are characters/references to things that were talked about or shown in the other films)

You can swap up Hulk and IM2 if you like; they largely take place simultaneously, though I think IM2 ends slightly before Hulk does in-universe.

[Carl]

@starblade: Thor is tottally worth it IMHO. Best of the lot. It's not so actiony, but it's still very good, mostly because of the characterisation. Stark is ace yes, but thor is far more lickable as a character and whatching him grow really is fun. It's allmost a pity they couldn't work Seif and the warriors 3 in as thors backup in avengers. But that would probably have ended up overshadowing black widow. They really need to get stark to put her an equipment pack together. Hawkeye is proof all it takes is some fancy gear to make somone instant awsome.

[MadCatChiken]

Oh Loki..

[Rotlung]

So I can finally step into this thread without fear of accidental spoilers.

I watched it in 3D last weekend. I think I'd have enjoyed it more in 2D, but the film was good anyway. I think it's got more humour than the other Marvel films I've watched, and that turned out to be pretty good and very memorable. Definitely looking forward to sequels (hopefully they're as good!).

[Croaxleigh]

Carl: Black Widow's schtick is that she appears more or less defenseless at first and then everybody's dead... hence her code name. She uses some tech, but it's usually kind of subtle and not the flashy sort of kit that Stark is prone to produce. As for Hawkeye,

Spoiler

if they follow through with the Ultimate universe background for him (since the movie universe at the very least leans on the Ultimate universe), he's actually got more going for him than his fancy gear. Ultimate Hawkeye was actually augmented by a group known as "The Program" to make him one of the most lethal killers alive; he's not only crazy-good with a bow, his accuracy is to the point that almost anything he can get his hands on becomes a potentially lethal weapon. He was once captured and killed his captors by ripping off his fingernails and using them as projectiles, and was the one who stopped the Hulk when the Chitauri attempted to destroy the Earth. It would actually be kind of interesting for them to bring some of the Ultimate Hawkeye storylines into the Marvel cinematic universe, though if they brought too much of it in then it'd come equipped with someone else for Whedon to kill.

[RexOmniaLupus]

I'm not familiar with the character, but I got the impression that Black Widow's real 'power' is her mastery of espionage and interrogation techniques. She's obviously very adept at fighting for a human, but seemed like she would be outmatched if she had to go head to head with most of the other Avengers.

[Kirjava]

Speaking of Iron Man 2, what the hell was War Machine doing for the entire Chitauri invasion?!?

[RGilbert26]

I heard War Machine will be in the Nick Fury/Shield film.

[Croaxleigh]

Rex: According to both current (main) Marvel Universe and Ultimate Universe lore, Black Widow is

Spoiler

"enhanced." In the primary Marvel Universe she has biotech and psycho-tech enhancements that were given as part of her training with the USSR's "Black Widow Ops" program. In the Ultimate Universe she has genetic alterations and cybernetic enhancements. Dunno how much if any of it they'll incorporate into the movie universe, of course.

RGilbert: Last I heard the Nick Fury/SHIELD film is largely speculation (as in, they optioned a SHIELD movie with Nick Fury but haven't actively started development.) A full SHIELD film would be better focused on Fury and a few of the "agents" from the Avengers anyway (possibly including Hawkeye and Black Widow in addition to Fury and Maria Hill.) According to Don Cheadle, though, they have started early development on a War Machine solo film (as of last year.)

[LoCo]

Why would they do that? They already have Iron Man. War Machine is just a knock-off. Or is it just people want to go "AMERICA! YEAH!" with yet another movie about the US military?

[Croaxleigh]

Same reason they had both a War Machine and an Iron Man comic book: Both are popular characters with fans of their own.

[Kirjava]

@Croaxleigh:

Ultimate Black Widow

Had genetic alterations and cybernetic enhancements, surely?

[Croaxleigh]

Well I was trying not to get THAT far into things. Also, they should totally incorporate some of the Ultimate Black Widow/Hawkeye storyline into a SHIELD movie if/when they do it.

[Sparki]

I'm not into all the Marvel/DC stuff but was just wondering why "War machine" from Iron man 2 wasn't seen at all or in any cameo role.
He was an awesome sidekick for Ironman after all. Was there any comment why we did not get to see him?

[Lautaro]

Arriving late to this thread... so is it true that agent Coulson could be alive? (I heard a rumor that somebody in the movie crew confirmed it, sorry for the vague info)

We didn't actually see his body and the bloodied cards were taken from his locker so I'm wondering if they'll revive the character... I hope so because I end up liking him during all these movies.

[Saunders]

Totally dead.

[Croaxleigh]

Sparki: Well, as of the moment in the Marvel cinematic universe, the War Machine armor belongs to the Air Force and Rhodes is... doing whatever it is that he does. He was never approached by SHIELD in any of the movies so he wasn't part of the Avengers Initiative; of course, it could be revealed in a later movie that the Air Force had him prepped for a follow-up assault or the War Machine armor was tied up in R&D when the invasion occurred (since there's nothing to say that the Air Force would have any knowledge of what was going on with SHIELD.)

Lautaro: A lot of the speculation revolves around the fact that there wasn't an on-screen death and the actor was supposedly slated to appear in Iron Man 3. But the Iron Man 3 bits came from before the script was finished for Avengers. In an interview recently, Clark Gregg was asked if Coulson might come back and said, "I think it's over. You know, it is the comic book world, so, you never know." There's a bit of fan speculation thinking he might come back either as a Life Model Decoy or possibly even as the basis for the Vision. But that's entirely speculation with nothing other than a throw-away line by Stark as the basis for it.

[PetarB]

Hmmm, maybe not.

There are several writeups about agent Coulson being alive after his horrific injury. Clark Gregg also mentioned - many, many months ago - that there's a lot of future possiblities for agent Coulson. Now whether this was before or after he saw the script, is a matter of debate, of course.

Remember Fury was quite happy to deceive the Avengers into unification through grief with his card trick. I think the 'trick' may go further than that...

EDIT: CROAXLEIGH just beat me to it.

[Langy]

It's definitely possible that he's still alive; the main theory I've heard is that the 'dead' Caulson was actually a Life Model Decoy - basically an android that SHIELD uses as their form of super high tech body doubles. The other theory is that he will appear in a later film as an LMD.

But yes, there have been rumors that he will appear in future films.

[Sparki]

@Croaxleigh
Thanks. Makes sense .

Regarding Avengers2, several of my friends also assumed that there would be 2nd/3rd installments of each Hero respectively/individually - and eventually lead to Avengers2.