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COH2 Preview: Hirm's perspective

  1. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #1
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    COH2 Preview: Hirm's perspective

    Apparently, places are going live an hour early - I think they forgot that BST is GMT+1. Huh.

    So, if they are breaking silence, so shall I!

    Out of the blue last week, I was invited to what has to be the most terrifying and awesome experience of my life. I was invited to preview the best of THQ’s upcoming games, and at the perfect time – I already had the time booked off!
    I was treated to many things that day, not least of all a massive spray paint of Death, from Darksiders II – however, this is not what I am writing about. I was lead into a presentation shortly after my arrival, and Danny Bilson took to the stage to introduce a man you are likely familiar with.
    Quinn Duffy – a 14 year vet at Relic, and the driving force behind COH2. Duffy was quick to remind us that he worked on COH1 as well, and we got to see perhaps the most professional and well-made power point I’ve ever seen.
    Now, your likely thinking “oh, I don’t care about COH1, I played it”, but it’s important to understand Relic’s original vision and plan for COH1, and how they went about it – that will give you some idea of the level of work and love they are putting into COH2.
    • The original was made in 2006
    • They had three goals: It had to have the “gritty realism” of war scenes like Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, it had to be about Real soldiers, real battles, etc. and had to be the highest rated RTS of all time.

    Editor’s note: I believe they succeeded on all counts. COH1 still holds the only true top spot for RTS on aggregated review sites.
    • It had to be a “tactical RTS” (flanking, etc)
    • Recently hit a new high unique player count – in March, and again this month with the COH promotion in PC Gamer and Steam Sale (the servers died).
    • While COH and WW2 in general focus on the whole western front and the Normandy battles and the push into France, the reality of it was that COH1 only covered 4 months out of 6 years of war.
    • They went further – 13 of the 15th bloodiest battles happened on the eastern front.

    The team looked back at their original vision for the first game – and wanted to capture that in the sequel. The eastern front was brutal, and Relic want to present “The ruthless truth of war” as they put it, but still remain sensitive.
    They want players to experience the reality of war.
    At this point, we were given a first class history lesson. An awful lot of clips were played, not all of them I can remember perfectly, but they conveyed the effort Relic had put into looking at the eastern front.
    They are doing their homework, their research, and they are pulling out all the stops. The development team actually took a trip to Germany and Russia to look at historical exhibits and even the places where fighting took place. They went to some of the biggest battlefields.
    During this, they decided they wanted to have more authenticity in the game – and started to record weapon sounds. They rode half-tracks.
    This, leads up to one of the areas Relic hope to improve the most (on what was already a very impressive accomplishment) – sound. Relic went out and recorded an MG42. They experienced it first hand, and have done so with other weapons. We we’re treated to a recording of the original COH MG42, followed by a real MG42. It was terrifying, and amazing all at once. Relic placed microphones carefully to catch the reverb of the gunfire, and it paid off.
    They also talked to the war experts and saw all the weapons they put in the game, and again their strategy was reiterated. They want to focus on the frontline, the soldiers, not the leaders and strategy of the war.
    We were then given the deliciously juicy details: The reason for the delay to COH2 was to rewrite the essence engine to 3.0.
    A massive undertaking, they built in:
    • New rendering
    • New animation
    • New simulation
    • New environmental gameplay
    • The new engine allows for new features - snow being one of the most talked about. But it also allows tanks to slide on ice. SLIDE ON ICE.

    Queue a shot of a Panzer 4 looking shiny and new in the rebuilt engine. It looked pretty spiffy. A video of T34 sliding around on ice followed - This new engine lets them make the game they want to – the game COH2 deserves to be.
    The new engine allows for new features - snow being one of the most talked about. But it also allows tanks to slide on ice. SLIDE ON ICE.
    The campaign is about freeing mother Russia, told from the perspective of a jaded war correspondent who is writing about the failings of communism.
    A big thing however, is what relic plan to do – Soviets are about hammering their opponent with waves of men, and the line specifically used was “millions of hammers, hitting the germans”. The Germans by comparison, are technologically advanced and highly trained – this will be reflected by the design of each army.
    Editor’s Note: I was expecting Relic to talk about Combat Doctrines here, but they confirm later by interview that they are saying nothing about those at the moment.
    And the biggest news of all was revealed – brand new vehicle criticals. The one we were demonstrated was “abandoned”, where an SU-76 was left there to be picked up, similar to guns that currently drop on the ground. Specific examples were “What if you could loot a tiger or an IS-2? That would give you a new dynamic to fight around”.
    The mission previewed has already been covered better than I could by most publications – but some interesting tidbits not well spoken about:
    • The mission is Rzhev Meatgrinder
    • 6 man squads as basic, grenades and possibly light soviet machine guns
    • 4 man engineer squads with flamers and democharges.

    Editor’s note: The flamers are fantastic – they now explode out of the barrel with a big ball followed by a jet. Buildings have had their burning effects overhauled and the screenshots just don’t do the burning building justice. Hopefully you guys can see the effects and hear the sounds soon.
    • Mortars have been made RIDICULOUS. The explosive effects and sounds we’re shocking to the system, and looked amazing.
    • Vaulting was shown off – already well covered – you click on a bit of wall and the men jump over. Squad AI did seem a LITTLE touch and go here, but they seem to be able to jump over them pretty well.
    • True sight was shown off with a bunch of trees.
    • MG42 noise was shown off – still rocked my ears off.
    • Soviet MG is on wheels, has a largish squad (4-5?).
    • Pak’s also have a visual upgrade – I didn’t see the shell travel, but the explosive effect of it against the tank armour was impressive.
    • They have redoubled all efforts on AI – they know that a majority of players play vs. the computer, and want to recognise that. They also want the campaign AI to be decent, for the best possible experience. We saw some AI german soldiers flank a soviet MG, and proceed to miss (narrowly) with a grenade. Still some work to do there, Relic!
    • They wanted tanks to feel like “30 tonne diesel snorting monsters”. Best line of the presentation.
    • The demo closed with a german plane blowing a T34 sky high.

    Interview slot:
    I got the chance to ask a few questions to a couple of the Relic folks – James, whom is studio and marketing as well as consumer interfacing (and worked with Thunder and Noun, and works a lot with Ruined); and Alex, whom is the new general manager of Relic, replacing Jonathan Dowdeswell. Both we’re really cool to talk to and it was a pleasure meeting them.
    • Steamworks for DRM
    • Campaign is purely Russian. Germans are obviously in for MP.
    • There was talk of DLC – but they definitely aren’t confirming anything yet. It’s still very, very early days for them and they are still on approach to alpha – DLC is a long way off.
    • A shorthand for why COH:O was killed was for COH2 to flourish. The team didn’t want to split efforts, and decided to focus on one product.
    • DMO has caused a lot of restructuring for Relic. They are, naturally, pretty devastated, but are lucky that most of the COH team are intact and able to work on COH2.
    • They are pretty relieved that COH2 is announced. They have been silent for 3 years – insert link to penny arcade strip with the blizzard guy having a bomb in his head if he talks.
    • They are thrilled by the reaction to COH2. Nice to know they are wanted.
    • Co-operative – I didn’t get a straight answer. The line was “they aren’t talking about that” and “they are looking at other products and aware people like to play with their friends”. I’d take that as a yes.
    • Commander trees aren’t being talked about. They want to bring back “core mechanics”, and this is one of them. I suspect, given the hush hush, commander trees are going to see some changes, maybe big ones. The fact nothing was being said, and I was given the core mechanics line tells me they are working on it still.
    • Base building is in. I was told “this isn’t going to be like DOW2, we want to recreate the experience of the original”. I’d say that bodes pretty well.
    You should check out Priority Vox Channel Secundus, a blog!

  2. #2
    Member Shaitan's Avatar
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    Cool preview, much appreciated. What vehicles did you see in game while you were there?
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  3. Modding Senior Member Company of Heroes Senior Member  #3
    Celéstial by heart Celution's Avatar
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    Wow! Amazing to read this, while I am so jealous as well! The new Essence 3.0 engine looks extremely promising and it's a great relieve Relic does want to recreate the experience of the original with CoH2, unlike DoW2.

    However, we again get no German campaign... I guess that's part of "recreating the experience of the original"?

    How they want to pump up everything like SquadAI, AI, Graphics, Sounds and FX makes me totally excited, it really seems they learned from that mistake with DoW2. All the points you described how things looked and sounded brings back my confident in Relic once more.

  4. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #4
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Cool preview, much appreciated. What vehicles did you see in game while you were there?
    SU-76, T-34, Panzer 4 (screenshots in the presentation and other previews). Pak's made a return too.

    Celestial: Agreed. It's hard to convey excitement, and atmosphere at the preview, but everybody I spoke to there remembers the Original COH very fondly, and the idea that Relic want to play along the same lines as they did in the original inspires a LOT of hope. The fact they listened to people about AI too is great.

    The best way to put it is - they want it bigger, better, badder, more realistic and meaner than the first, while still being the same game. IMO: A true sequel, so to speak.

  5. #5
    Member Mirage Knight's Avatar
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    Thanks for the review Hirm - much appreciated mate

    Soviet MG is on wheels, has a largish squad (4-5?).
    I'm guessing the 7.62mm Stankovy Pulyemot Maksima obr. 1910 on a Sokolov carriage. Nice!

    The demo closed with a german plane blowing a T34 sky high.
    Please tell me it was this...

    They wanted tanks to feel like “30 tonne diesel snorting monsters”
    Some were 56 tons and guzzled petrol - just saying Good to hear though

    What were the weapon ranges like? Aside from the vaulting mechanic for walls, were there any other tweaks to how cover is handled? Did you notice any changes with regard to how projectiles are handled?

  6. General Discussions Senior Member  #6
    Senior Member roflmao's Avatar
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    Everything I wanted to hear . Thanks Hirm, you're doing a great service to the community.

    CoH1 did have amazing sound effects. Great to see that they're making them even better.

  7. #7
    Member Desk's Avatar
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    Thanks for the preview, Hirmetrium. Lot of great informations here !

  8. #8
    Cheers, Hirm.
    - sincerely, the Sign Painter

  9. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #9
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    I think Obtuse, Swordmonkey and Gorb all have their own opinions formulating, so they should post at some point.

    @MK: That plane moved too fast to see. Was busy writing notes at the time

    Weapon ranges are pretty much the same. The game IS company of heroes - to a tee - it's just a bit more shiny and has a much more interesting set of environments and animations/effects.

    It's very, very difficult to convey what the game looks like, and all the graphical improvements, within this. We really need a HD video from gametrailers or something - that should show you some of the improvements and sound effects.

    Keep firing questions at me thought - I've read some of the other previews and it's obvious I've missed some finer points. I'm more frustrated as I don't like text as a medium - it conveys too little of how amazing it's looking even at this stage.

  10. Dolt Dolt Dolt Dolt Dolt  #10
    Performing Chainsaw Surgery Wargrim's Avatar
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    Thanks for the writeup Hirm. I must say all the articles so far tell surprisingly little about gameplay, and focus a lot on "history lessons". I guess it is too early for gameplay focus when the game comes sometime 2013. Still, i wish they had given some information on multiplayer.

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  11. #11
    If purchased through Steam, Company of Heroes 2 will also utilize Valve's Steamworks technology with matchmaking and Steam achievements. The game will be released on PC--the only version the developers would confirm at this time--sometime in early 2013.
    From Gamespot. Seems fairly weird - IF bought on Steam, uses Steamworks. What if it's bought elsewhere? Separate matchmaking system? Sounds nonsensical. Has a dual-matchmaking system ever happened before?

  12. #12
    ... What? What do you mean bought elsewhere?

    I don't know what even.

  13. #13
    Read Gamespot's statement more closely.

  14. #14
    just to clarify even if you buy it from another digital retailer it will require Steam and support Steam features :-)

  15. #15
    Forum Farseer Akranadas's Avatar
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    I get that 13 of the 15th bloodiest battles happened on the eastern front, but why give us control of Russians (I'm assuming this is the SP campaign focus) who were as if not more brutal than the German forces as they swept through Eastern Europe?

    Will we get to see the Russians rounding up prisoners of war before setting them off on death marches to the gulags?

  16. #16
    Hirm,

    Can you comment on how new squads enter battle? I know Relic has said base building will be back, but look at this excerpt from an article at another site:

    "Given that the focus is still on the few rather than the many, one of Relic’s challenges will be convincing of the scale of conflict and loss with the camera zoomed in so tight. There are sounds of distant slaughter and the machinery of warfare, and reinforcements arrive from offscreen, not as if from a drop pod or the training ground, but almost as if stumbling from a neigbouring skirmish, their nerves frazzled, their uniforms wet and stained."
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...+International

    I like base building, but I hope that quote above is accurate. I really would love to feel like I'm waging a tactical engagement as part of a much larger scale battle. Will new troops arrive on the field like described above? Are there sounds going on in the background that make it feel like there's a large scale battle going on around you?

    ----------

    Hirm,

    Can you comment on how new squads enter battle? I know Relic has said base building will be back, but look at this excerpt from an article at another site:

    "Given that the focus is still on the few rather than the many, one of Relic’s challenges will be convincing of the scale of conflict and loss with the camera zoomed in so tight. There are sounds of distant slaughter and the machinery of warfare, and reinforcements arrive from offscreen, not as if from a drop pod or the training ground, but almost as if stumbling from a neigbouring skirmish, their nerves frazzled, their uniforms wet and stained."
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...+International

    I like base building, but I hope that quote above is accurate. I really would love to feel like I'm waging a tactical engagement as part of a much larger scale battle. Will new troops arrive on the field like described above? Are there sounds going on in the background that make it feel like there's a large scale battle going on around you?

  17. #17
    Member Mirage Knight's Avatar
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    I'd surmise that SP from a German perspective is being saved for an expansion pack or DLC...hopefully.

    IMO, it would have made a bit more sense to start SP with the Germans and then switch to Soviets in an expansion pack due to the timeline of events. More compelling and less awkward in terms of storytelling.

    There's a tendency I've noticed in the realm of historical games to put the players on the side that ultimately wins in a given conflict. This kind of makes sense as some folks would probably have an aversion to playing as the bad guys / ultimate losers in a historical conflict. The problem we have is that the winning side of a given conflict is constantly in the spotlight when said conflict is portrayed in a video game (or movie for that matter).

    Rzhev Meatgrinder
    This? A series of operations that succeeded in pushing the Germans back from Moscow and then later prevented them from relieving the 6th Army at Stalingrad? That's a large time frame...I'd think it would be more focused on Operation Mars.

  18. #18
    Member Shaitan's Avatar
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    Not a question for Hirm, cause I'm sure he wouldn't know, but for anyone at Relic or THQ if they feel like answering, when will we hear about MP and the nature of DLC planned for CoH2?

  19. #19
    <3 Philadelphia mandead's Avatar
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    Nice preview. Can't wait for this game - it's going to be awesome.

    I actually prefer playing from the Allies' point of view because they always start off on the back foot, and I guess it's also consistent with starting as the Americans in CoH.

    I hope we get some screenshots and/or videos soon.
    "Pink Floyd and Keith Floyd made me who I am today."

  20. Gamers Lounge Senior Member Company of Heroes Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #20
    Nice write-up Hirm.

    That Gamespot bit is worrying indeed. Steamworks DRM, as bad as that is, was already confirmed by that THQ marketer some time ago. Using it for MP functionality as well looks like a(nother) disaster waiting to happen, any more info on that since it's only mentioned by Gamespot I think?
    One step closer to the end of the decadent Eldar race.
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  21. #21
    Sword Munkeh in Spaaaace Sword_Monkey's Avatar
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    Niiiiice Hirm.

    Mega-detailed write up.

  22. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #22
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Hirm,

    Can you comment on how new squads enter battle? I know Relic has said base building will be back, but look at this excerpt from an article at another site:
    The RPS article is talking about the scripted presentation. I personally wouldn't put too much on it - it was quite obviously setup to give maximum impact and show the press the features (abandoned, new squad AI, new sound effects, order 227, etc). Don't forget, campaign (which is the principal focus of the press at this stage) is what is being displayed, and campaign missions play very differently to regular MP matches.

    @Gamespot issue, I wouldn't pin much on it. At this point, nothing that comes out of THQ has anything other Steamworks for DRM and Steamworks for online. Retribution, Space Marine both use it - Darksiders used it, and I don't know about any other MP (I suspect that last Red Faction game used it?). THQ has shifted from GFWL to Steamworks permenantly it seems.

    As for the MP info drop, I wouldn't expect that until winter or next year. They always keep MP under wraps, but I've been given heads up we might be able to see it in action in the future. Knowing how big the community is, potential for live streams is likely.

    @MK: Don't know specifically, but I believe it is that battle, yes. The story is about the russian turning point - you seem to have plenty of men to throw at the Nazi's!

    And thanks guys. I'm not proud of the write-up myself, as I'm no journalist and have no writing background at all, but I wanted to convey the facts in a quick way without getting bogged down in words. Myself, I'm most interested on the UI and Commander trees aspects - If they are taking inspiration from COHO for the commander trees, its a good indication, but I'd like the flexibility of choosing a tree ingame, with the leveling aspect of the trees.

  23. #23
    <3 Philadelphia mandead's Avatar
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    I can't wait to see the commander trees - that is definitely going to be the most interesting information (for me, at least).

  24. Technical Help Senior Member Modding Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #24
    www.relicnews.com ÜberJumper's Avatar
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    Nice Hirm, linked you from RN main page.

  25. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #25
    Minister of Propaganda Imperial Dane's Avatar
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    Plus he got mentioned by THQ Uk, and i'm also linking from a preview collection thread on the official forums. Excellent preview

  26. #26
    Relic Entertainment Bayard's Avatar
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    Not a question for Hirm, cause I'm sure he wouldn't know, but for anyone at Relic or THQ if they feel like answering, when will we hear about MP and the nature of DLC planned for CoH2?
    I'm not privy to dates. if space marine is anything to go by it was a few months after single player before any multiplayer info leaked out. DLC wasn't even talked about with Spacemarine till almost ship. Marketing likes to have something new to bring up every month or so. I do know that a) even if I knew dates I probably couldn't tell you. b) I did know the original planned dates for info reveals for spacemarine, and they ended up delaying some reveals, and moving them around. So even if I knew dates at this point, they are probably wrong.

    Dates are moving targets for multiple reasons. keeping interest up, allowing for teams slipping, features not being polished enough to show yet, that kind of thing. I really have to get downstairs and see coh2, but it's tricky when I'm on the critical path for other projects ( non relic projects, but thq wide ones. )

  27. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #27
    Minister of Propaganda Imperial Dane's Avatar
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    Well i am curious to hear more about Multiplayer.. And ze Germans, although seems like they will be called the Ostheer. But from what i can tell. We'll be getting a trailer "soon".

  28. #28
    Member Shaitan's Avatar
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    Thanks Bayard, that's a pretty reasonable explanation. When you say DLC wasn't even talked about with Spacemarine till almost ship, do you mean internally? I honestly can't remember when DLC was mentioned at first for Spacemarine, but it felt like it was a bit after release if anything?

    I think people might be ambivalent about DLC and what it could be but personally I'm kind of excited at the prospect of not only DLC but multiplayer DLC in some form.

  29. #29
    Relic Entertainment Bayard's Avatar
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    internally there was talk about dlc. I mean we had to figure out a) if it happened how was it going to work with the existing product i.e. enabling features etc. b) what kind of dlc was getting done first, what it would do etc..

    I meant externally. I possibly was reading the interviews on space marine differently than you, given that I knew the answers to most of the questions. I was looking at the questions that weren't answered. ( mostly so I know what I'm allowed to talk about on forums )

    There was a graph somewhere.. might have been penny arcade? of what people think game teams do until a game ships and what really happens... It came up with the whole Mass Effect 3 DLC ... basically.. X weeks before your game is going to ship you go into certification. at this point you can't really change the game at all because if it passes, then that's what goes on the disk, so you've got maybe 1/8th of your team responsible for getting the game through certification, and the other people have to roll onto SOMETHING else, or get laid off..

    this is where day 0 patch comes in and DLC, some of those people can start on DLC. Some of them can be working on the day 0 patch. (Some companies have enough people sitting around they can basically do day 0 DLC). after DLC, people go on vacation for a bit, then start on the next thing whatever it happens to be, ( more DLC.. next project.. whatever. )

    anyway. I'm off topic. basically there will be lots of info once marketing decides to share it.

  30. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #30
    Minister of Propaganda Imperial Dane's Avatar
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    For which people like Ruined and Lynx are the people to go to.

  31. #31
    Its nice to read the prespective of a player ( are you a journalist by any chance ) - The atmosphere , the missing elements of the other reviews ( squad sizes , squads units etc ) .I like the motar bit , with true line of sight it is going to be an intersting squad i think . There are some images of the sniper in PC covers , Did you get to see them in the breifing .Do the russians have mobile infantry AT squads equipped with the large circular disc type magazines , what is their squad size .

    Remember reading the review's before i tried the original COH , This like stuck with me " It would break your heart to see your infantry being killed to the MG42 fire , The audio and visuals haunt you" was there any wow moment like this while you were at the breifing and image or incident that has stayed with you forming the impression of the game .
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.

  32. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #32
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Order 227. As if charging into an MG42 wasn't bad enough, seeing your men mowed down, you retreat them only to be gunned down by a guy commanded by A COMMISSAR YELLING AT YOU.

    It was pretty moving.

  33. #33
    Forum Farseer Akranadas's Avatar
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    Order 227. As if charging into an MG42 wasn't bad enough, seeing your men mowed down, you retreat them only to be gunned down by a guy commanded by A COMMISSAR YELLING AT YOU.

    It was pretty moving.
    I don't find that moving at all to be honest.

    As I've said previously, I can't identify with the Russian cause in WW2; all I see are two evil Empires battling it out in the snow; one of them happens to be not lead by Nazi's so we'll call them allies. Seeing a bunch of conscripts being forced to run into a machine gun or getting shot in the back just reiterates how inhuman Russians treated each other during wartime. In my opinion.

  34. #34
    Member Mirage Knight's Avatar
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    On the topic of the Commissar, I take it this was an SP game segement you were playing. Is a Commissar a unit that is given to the player or someone that can be recruited? If there is a player-controller Commissar (as opposed to simply being a character in a cutscene), I wonder if you can properly "motivate" your troops in SP and/or MP by making an example of someone in a squad that shows a bit too much trepidation.

  35. #35
    No Wehrmacht campaign?

    I do not approve.

  36. #36
    Yeah, I'd love a Wehrmacht campaign. Maybe a DLC later on? (Improbable, making a campaign takes a lot of money and is probably not a strong enough selling point... Then again, who knows)

  37. Modding Senior Member Tabletop Senior Member Boardwars Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #37
    Retired Compliance Fairy Gorb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akranadas View Post
    I don't find that moving at all to be honest.

    As I've said previously, I can't identify with the Russian cause in WW2; all I see are two evil Empires battling it out in the snow; one of them happens to be not lead by Nazi's so we'll call them allies. Seeing a bunch of conscripts being forced to run into a machine gun or getting shot in the back just reiterates how inhuman Russians treated each other during wartime. In my opinion.
    A rather blinkered view, if you don't mind me saying so :/

    There were German soldiers just as humane and morally-aware as those of the Western Allies, and the same goes for the Russians. Of course there were troops known for their brutality and/or lack of humanity, but as stereotypes go you're going to find versions of them all over every armed force discipline in the world.

    If you had to hold a line otherwise the German war machine would capture your emplacement, put all your homes to the fire and sword (paraphrasing) and then execute you all simply because you were Russian . . . do you know the lengths you would go to to ensure victory? Could you imagine the lengths they had to go to?

    War isn't pretty. War is kill or be killed in a lot of places, and if you think that makes them inhuman, so be it. They were fighting over their homes, and by that point in the war the Germans were fighting over their existence (no real retreat paths, lack of supplies, etc, et al).
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  38. #38
    <3 Philadelphia mandead's Avatar
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    Whilst a Wehrmacht campaign would be pretty cool I'm guessing it's the Russians who will benefit from most of the new game features - in CoH the Germans were always more straightforward to play as (what with each unit generally having one specific purpose) and I guess this will largely stay the same.

    I really hope the last level involves having to take out a Maus though.

  39. Child's Play Donor Technical Help Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Company of Heroes Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #39
    Hydra's Super Marshal GeoffS's Avatar
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    Since the Maus never saw action, that's extremely unlikely.


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  40. #40
    <3 Philadelphia mandead's Avatar
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    I know it didn't, but it would be a great way of stepping up from the Tiger Ace in CoH. Imagine having to take down a Maus. It would just be cool.

  41. #41
    Forum Farseer Akranadas's Avatar
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    If you had to hold a line otherwise the German war machine would capture your emplacement, put all your homes to the fire and sword (paraphrasing) and then execute you all simply because you were Russian . . . do you know the lengths you would go to to ensure victory? Could you imagine the lengths they had to go to?
    There are better ways to inspire bravery then to put your own men to the sword if they attempt to fall back. We also fought enemies who were exactly like that, treated our soldiers as less than human and more like cattle, but we didn't need to tell them not to fall back by sticking a gun to their neck; they just did their job. I don't see Russian's as the Heroes that Company of Heroes usually portrays, usually they are soldier figures of doing the right thing; I guess it's hard for me to see Russian heroes (I am sure there are plenty) when its on a backdrop of slaughter and rape of Eastern Europe.

  42. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #42
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Your dreaming a bit much there mandead - the maus is most definately not going to show. IS-2 is more likely - or maybe a jagdtigre at an extreme.

  43. #43
    <3 Philadelphia mandead's Avatar
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    Well it was half-built; it's not science-fiction.

    Still, you're the boss. I just think it'd be good as a one-off campaign thing on one of the last levels. Maybe you could have a mission where you have to destroy the Maus prototype before it's finished (which it can be, making it mobile and more dangerous) - that would be realistic because that's what happened, isn't it? Well, the site was captured/abandoned at least.

    It'd make more sense than an IS-2 because they're on your side so you wouldn't be going up against them.

    Anyway I won't mention it again...

  44. #44
    Member eliw00d's Avatar
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    A Ferdinand / Elefant would be better than the Maus. I've never understood the fascination with that abomination...

  45. Modding Senior Member Tabletop Senior Member Boardwars Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #45
    Retired Compliance Fairy Gorb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akranadas View Post
    There are better ways to inspire bravery then to put your own men to the sword if they attempt to fall back. We also fought enemies who were exactly like that, treated our soldiers as less than human and more like cattle, but we didn't need to tell them not to fall back by sticking a gun to their neck; they just did their job. I don't see Russian's as the Heroes that Company of Heroes usually portrays, usually they are soldier figures of doing the right thing; I guess it's hard for me to see Russian heroes (I am sure there are plenty) when its on a backdrop of slaughter and rape of Eastern Europe.
    It wasn't about inspiring bravery. It was about holding the line with whatever bodies you were physically able to command. If that meant making the ultimate example out of those that fled - if you held the line, then it was justified.

    The theatres of war other people fought in (the English, French, Canadians, Australians, etc, and so forth) were a completely different beast to the Eastern Front. I am not belittling the pain and horror that everybody who participated in the war went through. I am simply stating statistical facts. The casualties there were far more immense. The amount of land covered was far more immense. The conflicting ideologies were far more opposed than "we think Hitler is bad, so we're taking back France". We were doing the "right thing"; retaking land that deserved to be freed.

    They were fighting their political and social opposites in every sense of the word. Victory or defeat were expressed in far more absolute terms, because the loser would have to live under the ethos of the victor. It was a completely different ball game.

    Though I do find it amusing that you imply that the Eastern theatres were the only areas where slaughter and rape occurred.

  46. #46
    Forum Farseer Akranadas's Avatar
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    Though I do find it amusing that you imply that the Eastern theatres were the only areas where slaughter and rape occurred.
    I'm not implying that at all.

    Where I see the Western, African and Pacific fronts as Good vs Evil, I tend to view the Eastern Front was Evil vs Lesser Evil. This is my opinion. As I've said; I can't identify with the Russian cause at all. I grew up on the inspiring stories of Australian troops refusing to retreat because they had a job to do, marching back into combat with wounds just because their friends were still on the line and fighting because it needed to be done. I just don't see the meat grinder of the Eastern Front inspiring.

  47. Modding Senior Member Tabletop Senior Member Boardwars Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #47
    Retired Compliance Fairy Gorb's Avatar
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    Oh well that's fair, I'm not saying you should see it as inspiring.

    But moving, at the very least? People being forced to do unspeakable things simply to survive . . . that doesn't ring any bells of pity?

    Additionally, there's a bit of a difference between marching back into combat with (severe) wounds, and being asked to run headlong into a machine gun emplacement so that the sappers can go around the side and blow stuff up. You are essentially being asked to sacrifice yourself for the greater cause, hence why cowardice was punished so heavily. The sappers needed to get around, otherwise the machine gun would stay there, stopping the Russian conscripts from advancing any further regardless.

    EDIT: and yes, that's what you're implying. Not intentionally perhaps, but saying it's hard to see heroes against a backdrop of rape and slaughter . . . why it is only hard to see Russian heroes? Why is it not then hard to see heroes across the whole war, when slaughter (and rape) occurred all over the place?

  48. #48
    <3 Philadelphia mandead's Avatar
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    Don't you think a debate about which front is the more moving is a little arbitrary?

  49. Modding Senior Member Tabletop Senior Member Boardwars Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #49
    Retired Compliance Fairy Gorb's Avatar
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    It's not a debate between which front is more moving, and considering the emphasis Relic have been placing on making the player feel involved . . . no, I wouldn't dismiss it as such.

  50. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #50
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    Out of curiosity if i may inquire.. But had the squad sizes on the PaKs and MG42s been increased.. if it could be seen that is. Just curious

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