*Something* about DoW3...

[Demiurg]

Not a lot to go on, but still... news.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ore-games-boss

[Caeltos]

Rethinking.

That's one way to put it.

[LoneWolf666]

Oooops? Well, with the push for CoH2 we are unlikely to see DoW3 for a loooong time anyway.

[Demiurg]

Yeah I'm glad to see all the recent news about CoH2 anyway, and if it turns out to be a good game I'd be more than happy for the engine to become the basis of DoW3.

[ThunderHost]

Y linky not work? Thog mad!

[CommissarRezail]

Hoping dow 3 still has mega uber customization. I want an all storm trooper army, with storm trooper strike chimera, and rookie storm troopers for t1 units( storm trooper commissar). Listen to my self getting ahead, that won't happen untll 39,999 years from now.

[Hive_Node]

I hope that Dawn of War 3 is an actual war and not skirmishes.

[Mantaray]

In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium, there is only minor border disputes.

[Gorb]

I hope it's an RPG with DotA-equse elements and small focused kill team scenarios.

Just to watch the fan rage

[Aquila]

This is pretty much what I suspected happened, and glad to see it confirmed. The game isn't dead but THQ is going to be a much smaller, leaner company moving forward and the resources are being devoted to Company of Heroes 2 for now. Relic simply doesn't have the cash or the manpower to work on two blockbuster RTSs at the same time.

Sounds good to me. The first Company of Heroes changed the face of RTS gaming, and DoW2 was like the beautiful love child of CoH and the first DoW. Can't wait to see what they do with the new Company of Heroes (I love the sound of new 'progressive and forward thinking' aspects!) and how that influences design decisions for the next generation of Dawn of War titles.

Going to take a lot of patience, though, to be sure...

[Pseudonymn]

I hope that Dawn of War 3 is an actual war and not skirmishes.

This. FUCKING THIS! I swear to god, if DoW3 goes the way of DoW2 and only gives us a couple hundred points worth of models to play with, I'll lose my shit. Or tries to ask us to justify bringing a Land Raider along (or insert super-heavy tank, or other favorite uber of your choice) with an army that consists of 500 points or less. FFFFFFUUUUUU-

I hope it's an RPG with DotA-equse elements and small focused kill team scenarios.

Goddamnit, don't provoke me! (lol)

[Gorb]

DoW II goes up to 1,500, but what would people know~

(@Pseudo: you know I try )

[Logic_Bomb]

I would love to see Dow3 as a mix of RTS with at least some of the depth of detail that TBS/4X games have. I think it would suit it really well. A return to some elements of base building would be really welcome as well. Generally larger scale overall. Less of the luck based random elements that CoH has (love the game, but the random, luck, physics based stuff while fun is sometimes equally infuriating when it comes to MP) but I also dislike the high dps-high fragility-battles are over in the blink of an eye style of SC2. I think DoW1 actually got it right as far as the combat speed/lethality.

[Pseudonymn]

Really? What army are you speaking for? Because I maxed out my pop cap using my SM army once, long ago and counted the models, did all the math and I forget the exact number but it was not anywhere near 1500. It came out around 500 points +/- 50 or so if I recall correctly, which makes bringing a 250 point Land Raider along for the ride seem all the more ridiculous and out of place. If just one super-heavy tank is worth equal to or more than the sum total of all the rest of your army combined, someone's doing it wrong up there in the command chair. DoW2 makes the Spess Mehrens heaviest piece of equipment look like a paper bag with pewpewpew written all over it for all the rebalancing they did to it. It's the sort of disproportionate crap that, along with a space marine recon party stopping a Tyranid Hive fleet dead in its tracks, ruined my immersion in the game.

Anyway, it's neither here nor there and this is turning into a rant already. :P I just hope DoW3 brings back DoW1-sized armies at the very least. That is all.

[Liljagare]

A game like that Star Wars empire game but in wh40k would be nice.

Also rather tired of squad based games, we've played those allready, give a empire building game plixx.

[Codex]

Yeah, god, blame Relic for making a small scale squad based game that they pretty much revolutionised. Company of Heroes? Broke my immersion horribly. Riflemen squads of 6 men? Who works in sections of 6? Let alone sections of 3 like the Panzer Elite? I expected all out urban warfare with squads in every building...

Small squad based combat works. Sorry it's immersion breaking, but it's a game. If you even tried to balance the game fluffwise you'd have a serious problem by having Hive Tyrant and IG in the game, let alone a huge number of interracial balance problems.

... went over this with Gabriel Gorgutz, tired old arguments, etc...

Frankly I wish they didn't put in super units for everyone.

[CommissarRezail]

I don't mind small based combat , but I just want my listening post back, everyone had their own designs . Not to mention some base building back.

[Pseudonymn]

There's no need to get all flippant about it. Geezus. "Stop liking what I don't like." I've had to take that lesson to heart around here and lord knows I try but comments like these make it so very hard. I'm not asking for SupCom-scale epicness. DoW1 had the right balance between scale and useability and it felt like WH40L. But they keep trying to reinvent the wheel here and they have the DoW2 fanboys to encourage them. It should tell you something when so many of the old DoW1 players haven't been seen around these parts in years, largely given up on the franchise and shouted down by you lot. Your voices are heard only because you're virtually the only ones left.

It's not going to hurt anybody to concede that the game could do with some more action and immersion injected back into the 40K setting, least of all the pitiful argument that squad sizes somehow contribute to balance problems. It's utter bullshit. The only reason we got smaller squads was due to the technical challenge of marketing the game to casuals whose systems likely would not be able to run the game at a scale that is appropriate for WH40K the way that DoW1 did. Economies of scale and all that. It had nothing whatever to do with balance.

Look, I don't want to argue about this. I'm tired of this old dance we do here. I've expressed my opinion, there's no need to attack it. Just let it be.

game like that Star Wars empire game but in wh40k would be nice.

You're thinking of Battlefleet Gothic done in the style of Homeworld. Now that would be a kick ass game! Hell, Homeworld could just as easily have been BFG had Relic acquired the GW license any sooner. I do want this! (big fan of Stardock's SoaSE)

[Maktaka]

The only reason we got smaller squads was due to the technical challenge of marketing the game to casuals whose systems likely would not be able to run the game at a scale that is appropriate for WH40K the way that DoW1 did.

Yes that's absolutely it. It surely had nothing to do with the team wanting to try for a more micro-focused game or anything like they said numerous times in previews and interviews. It must be that Relic are conmen and liars when they stated as such, and they secretly just wanted to get the stupid casuals with their crappy PCs to buy the game.

Try new and improved Bullshit®, for when the truth doesn't support your assumptions.

[Gorb]

Look, I don't want to argue about this. I'm tired of this old dance we do here. I've expressed my opinion, there's no need to attack it. Just let it be.

Then you, really, really shouldn't say it, should you? The argument, that is.

Because that's what you just spent two paragraphs reviving

[Pseudonymn]

^ Better than my usual pages long ones though, eh? Don't you see? I really am trying. But you know what? I made one little tiny comment, and people can't resist shouting it down, can they. The trouble here, as it has always been, is that people perceive any criticism or attack on DoW2 as an criticism or attack upon themselves. My comments had nothing at all to do with Codex personally before he let in with it and made it personal. Am I supposed to be a good little forum lurker and go join my other DoW1 buddies in some forgotten corner whenever people like him and Maktaka shout me down? I think not. I still love this franchise too much and I've still got some fight left in me.

It surely had nothing to do with the team wanting to try for a more micro-focused game or anything like they said

because appealing to the casuals and drawing audiences from the frenetic COD crowd wasn't actually one of their stated goals, just like they said numerous times in previews and interviews. Yo dawg, Relic heard that you liked to micro so they microed the scale so you could micro more while you micro.

Give me a break.

[Pocari]

The APM is lower, but you are focusing your attention on microing your actual units instead of all the "cool" buildings and other pointless crap. This makes you position and kite better, move around LoS blockers, use and counter abilities appropriately and do combos like Merciless + Frag Nade or Warp Throw + Singularity to pwn and feel really warm and fuzzy. And you're making stuff blow up instead of playing the silly SimCity sub-game.

Incidentally, since you're so worried about table-top 40K and how it's being represented in DoW, what exactly is the role of base-building in there? I'm a little fuzzy in this area...

In conclusion, wouldn't be too disturbed by DoW3 and RTS in general moving away from this 90's mechanic. We had tons of games with that, something new plz.

[Pseudonymn]

I never said anything about base building. That's the macro game, and an entirely different argument. More on that in a moment.

No, the thing that I'm arguing about here and, really, what shocks me the most given the amount of resistance that so many people here heap upon it, is purely an aesthetic consideration. I love the game's mechanics (apart from my views on base building, which I never once brought up here). I'm not in anyway suggesting a change to DoW2's core mechanics. I'm only saying that DoW2 could, from an artistic point of view, present itself more authentically as a torch bearer of the WH40K universe by just simply adding a few more models to the table instead of being so chincy and cheap with them. I just can't get into the game because it doesn't feel like 40K. Just a few more models! And look at the vitriol I get for that.

But you're right about that fuzzy bit between TT and DoW. The TT game is more like an RTT in that respect rather than an RTS. Frankly, I wouldn't mind it at all if DoW3 were to more closely model the TT rules. An RTT game model would be the best fit for that. It would put an end to things like victory fleets of Fire Prism and/or Chimera spam that we saw in DoW1 or the Tac blobs that were a problem in DoW2 - armies consisting of one catastrophically imba unit to the exclusion of all others. That sort of cheese would go right out the window if everyone were confined to the force organization charts stipulated by TT rules and mechanics. And that again matches with what I've been saying here all along: That DoW2's armies do not in any way resemble a properly organized army by TT standards. Especially when you start throwing in the super heavies and ubers with such under populated armies.

[Logic_Bomb]

I've never understood the whole conflict and argument between dow1 and 2. I played both. I loved both. I've never played TT and have no expectations about either game having to resemble it. As games unto themselves, both versions were good and I was happy to see Relic try something different. My only complaint of Dow2 was that it was rushed out the door unfinished and shipped in an abysmal state. THQ most likely behind that. Relic did a good job of supporting it and fleshing it out though. I'm sure if and when Dow3 happens it will also be different than both of its predecessors and incorporate what they've learned from both. Most of the dow1 players that complained about dow2 really wanted dow1.5 - ala SC2 and SC1. The "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. While there's something to be said for that, I think Relic should be applauded for not resting on their laurels and trying something new. Most of the people who hated dow2 hated it because of strong expectations about how it should be and by the poor state it was in at launch. In my opinion, they never really gave the game a chance and, more importantly, never actually played the game or got into the game when it was in its prime - so they never actually experienced the real dow2. It's fair enough that a bad initial launch state and first 6 months turns people off, but it really did turn into a totally different and better realized game as time went on. Having said all that, I would not want Dow3 to just be Dow2.5 - I'd like to see it take a new direction again or take the best of dow1 and 2 together.

[the_living_god]

I would want the game to be much larger scale than DoW2. I never felt like DoW2 was an actual war - more like minor skirmishes. Some base building would also be nice, doesn't have to be excessive like, say, SC2, but just a bit. I also wouldn't want the units to be quite as fragile as in SC2 - battles should last just a little longer than in that game. But that has always been the case with DoW so hopefully no worries there. Hopefully no air units like SoulStorm.

One thing they could borrow from SC2 would be a competitive online matchmaking system that is actually good, as opposed to GFWL or Gamespy which are of course bad.

Either way I guess this is mostly just wishful thinking for the next couple of years.

[Mac_Bug]

what exactly is this 'bad initial launch state'?

[CommissarRezail]

Agreed what bad launch state, the game didn't turn a lot of people off, considering it was over 9000 people in there.

[comradegrumpy]

Frankly, I've never been sure what squad sizes precisely have to do with immersion value. For me, at least, the size of the squads and/or armies has no effect whatsoever on whether or not I find the game immersive. I played DoW1 (mostly with mates on LAN) and loved it, play TT (and although I possibly enjoy painting more than actually playing, I love that too), and play DoW2 and love it. I choose to take DoW2 for what it is - a game where small squad sizes and the low pop cap make every squad, every decision, important. It's set in the W40K universe, which appeals to me, but I neither expect it nor want it to be a computerised version of TT 40K. Super units changed the game more than I like, but in general terms DoW2 was an attempt by Relic to shake up the RTS genre by making every unit a critical decision. Barring its dreadful, buggy and completely imbalanced launch state (and the length of time it took to get a lot of that fixed) I think they succeeded admirably.

As far as DoW3 goes, I *really* hope not to see base building back. I'd like to keep the fast pace of DoW2, and other than that I just hope Relic keep innovating. I'm more interested to see what new and exciting stuff they can bring to the table than I am interested in a re-hash of DoW1 or DoW2.

[Ewokz]

I assume the AI is one example of a rushed launch but that's just me guessing.

[Logic_Bomb]

Bad launch state is the game shipping with like 3 maps and terrible balance for starters. The beta lasted less than a month which is quite short compared to other games.

[Gorb]

@Logic_Bomb: the issue in the beginning was more design than balance, specifically. Or coding oversights with regards to overlapping modifiers and the like. Not that this is good, either, but I like being specific

The map pool is a valid point, however.

The beta is another subjective area - considering THQ's state and the implied success of DoW II, a month-long MP beta is actually quite long. I certainly can't recall many 2009-released titles with such a public beta. This was before the days of Kickstarter and indie-related development betas, you see.

^ Better than my usual pages long ones though, eh? Don't you see? I really am trying. But you know what? I made one little tiny comment, and people can't resist shouting it down, can they. The trouble here, as it has always been, is that people perceive any criticism or attack on DoW2 as an criticism or attack upon themselves. My comments had nothing at all to do with Codex personally before he let in with it and made it personal. Am I supposed to be a good little forum lurker and go join my other DoW1 buddies in some forgotten corner whenever people like him and Maktaka shout me down? I think not. I still love this franchise too much and I've still got some fight left in me.

What would happen, exactly, if I went to a DoW forum (or the DoW subforum on here, assuming it had some specific active members left) and started making "tiny little comments"?

I think I too would be "shouted down" for criticising something others liked, especially if that criticism is subjective (or at least has more wiggle room than your statements imply), personally!

Also, Maktaka is probably one of the few DoW players left around. You make a song and dance about how the DoW II players gang up on the oldies like you. He made the DoW Bugfix modification series. He contributed heavily to/helped make the DoW wiki, if I'm remembering correctly. He could tell you all of this himself, I'm sure, but I rarely get to talk to the guy myself so this is my appreciation for him fixing all of those damn SP glitches and errors for my enjoyment

Also, he likes DoW II as well, apparently. Good for him!

[fuggles]

For me it was never the smaller scale. I missed the huge scale of DoW1 and with that went a lot of the crazy replays I enjoyed, like Penitant thrashing people with land speeders, but DoW2 had the tighter moments with chaos lords chasing people through walls.

The issue I had with dow2 was that it was more about running away than fighting. You go down one flank, your opponent turns up, you run away, hit the other flank and so on and so forth. I have seen it described as whack a mole by some reviewers, which felt about right. My personal impression was that dow2 was like this because this style of gameplay was fashionable, being like a moba. Relic have flat out said the game didn't work out as they imagined, which was apparent from the patches radically changing things about so much I guess. I would love it to end up like the DoW2 concept footage, but epic scale would be great, however the ability to make campaigns, ideally linear with branching, ala Winter Assault would be fabulous.

[Castigon]

Everytime (and it happends rarely nowadays) I get myself into DoW2 MP, I always amazed by fun and drive
outta this gameplay, very exciting, nearly always, very fast pacing, never have a second to relax, almost
like some sci-fi MP shooter... And it happends despite disbalance, lack of community and players, and all
other horrible things.
I perfectly understand that supporting DoW2 is just dumping money for Relic atm, but with some new
patches and new content game would be just awesome, no sweat. I still wondering why this game so
dead, though its fun?...

About DoW3... no offence to THQ and Relic, but I seriously hoping this game (or some prototype in
Wh40k universe) appears on kick-starter, I will not survive another product for industry (not for ppl).
And i willing to pay a good price to support that what I (and tons of fans) expect to see in part 3
or whateva it'll be called.

P.S. DoW1 hadn't really highscale war, it was just bigger than DoW2, no comparison to TW-like games =)

[CommissarRezail]

Also how large are we talking about, I mean if its really big, you literally have 1000 marines on the field, also you also be forced to always dice up your chapter, you may only be able to make 500 battle brothers/vehicle drivers, where 200 are Scout marines, and 100 is 1st company terminators. Then you have to dice them up into ranks where you literally having the chapter master running around on the battle field.

You have to make them all really tough, in comparison considering you need to make sm really tough you need to be able to atleast have 100,000 guardsmen on the field In order to fight the space marines. It would be one insane tense game, every match....

[uncle_anaesthesia]

Make dow 3 campaign like the war film the longest day in which every map is played as one of the varying protaganists one map your'e the chaos commander you complete the map and it chucks you to the eldar n so forth n back again. by doing this you could incorporate various map sizes to accomodate the titans and mech stuff and smaller stuff for typical ground force fights, because lets face it you are never how much you wish gonna get seamless gameplay with apocalyptic amounts of troops n mech on the probable essence engine 3 ( hoping for a different engine though).
dow 1 was awesome but yeh there were things in it that werent so good (ground tracking missiles n no shot blocking for me)
dow2 campaigns except retri were for me immersive and spot on for what they were and the art work was a standout but the retreat to base thing annoyed me..... "we know no fear...run away..run away!
I would love an expanded UI to incorporate more unit availabilty whilst leaving the "you pick marines they all play all the same, just a different colour n a feather in their hat thing"
regardless what happens i'll buy the f****r anyway

[ExTiNcT_SaNitY]

Agreed what bad launch state, the game didn't turn a lot of people off, considering it was over 9000 people in there.

Not quite, the numbers are also counting those who only play singleplayer game, the numbers are realisticly more around 2000, that compared to StarCraft back in the days who exclusivly counted online playes and each server US/EU/Asia had at any time 24/7 least 30k players.

[Warboss_Al]

I just hope they have a pretty comprehensive demo, or beta. While I've played the campaign enough to justify buying DoW 2, I still regret buying chaos rising to this day.

I also hope they go in a different direction to CoH. I do like CoH, but if i want to play CoH, I'll play CoH. I just don't dig the supression->retreat->squad preservation thing going on, at least in terms of the DoW series. It makes the whole game feels extremely unsatisfying, like trying to crack open a concrete pinata. At least there aren't immortal pioneers, able to survive being shot at by 3 infantry sections and waltz away like they're taking a leisurely stroll.

Keep retreat and squad preservation as a space marine thing, as it fits them to a tee. Just dont plaster the same mechanics over every race, even if it does make the game easier to balance. I miss things like more sluggas, and other techs which add more flavour.

Basically, actually make the races feel different to a substantial degree. Make horde races hordey, make elite races... elitey(?). Maybe have a couple of races use unique resources. And giving a reource a different name but doing the exact same thing for every race does not count.

[Zany Reaper]

Frankly I wish they didn't put in super units for everyone.

More the case that the super-units were too similar, at least that's how I see it. I preferred the situation in Chaos rising where the Great Unclean One was by far the most powerful unit in the game :/

I agree that base building should remain with DOW1 only - it's all about fighting in DOW2, & hopefully 3 too.

What if resource management and base-building are kept separate from fights? I'm thinking along the likes of C&C Tiberium Alliances here.

[Codex]

Retribution release state of super units:

Land Raider Redeemer: Retreat beacon, Reinforcement point, transport, anti-infantry with a grenade barrage ability, crazy good heal aura. Weak to being flanked, manticores, vehicles, heavy melee swarming its rear. Vehicle armor.
Baneblade: Pure damage tank. One hit from its main cannon can wipe a whole infantry squad if they're bunched, even tacs and with levels (how many depends on each squad). Hugely durable, but still vulnerable to heavy melee swarmings its rear and manticores. Vehicle armor.
Avatar: Emits an amazing aura that reduces incoming damage and suppression to allied units. Great damage, reasonable abilities, however the real strength came from the aura. Super Heavy Infantry armor.
GUO: Primarily used as a tank, but used to have amazing damage and hp. Now is much more about using his great abilities, but his abilities were always good when you could use them. Too expensive to use at first, IIRC. Super Heavy Infantry armor.
Battlewagon: I don't know about this unit at all. I never use it at all. Vehicle armor.
Swarmlord: Amazing aura on a fast walker that hugely increases the effectiveness of the friendly army. Has two abilities that make the Swarmlord even more fearsome in close combat. Due to melee nature is weak to snares like Plague Marines, Lascannons. Vehicle armor.

These seem like very differentiated super units to me. I don't see how they're very similar at all.

[Pocari]

- Land Raider: Mobile HQ, owned by ranged AV (tanks, lascannons etc. - can't really touch 'em). Does a bunch of close range anti-infantry damage with a wide arc on the flamers and takes no extra damage from rear armor, so it's much more resistant to melee than the Baneblade. Of course 2 Nob Squads etc. will kill it.
- Baneblade: Kills anything at range so it handles tanks and AV squads well, but rather vulnerable to melee and takes +50% rear armor damage.
- Avatar: Crap melee damage (<70 DPS, a Bloodcrusher does >90 DPS) but insane aura with suppression immunity, -30% received damage and +30% dealt damage. So it's most powerful with an army to buff. Abilities also good. Dies quickly to plasma/inferno spam.
- GUO: More HP and a bit more damage than Avatar (still low though), no aura, more abilities. Worship support makes it regenerate so it's extra tanky, also needs Worship or even Heretics to eat (although I've had my teammates use Consume on Termies for lols) in order to spam abilities. Also dies quickly to massed plasma/inferno. Used to have only 1/2 of the energy and cost 900/220 so it was considered shit in CR by any Chaos player I ever met.
- Swarmlord: Murders everything in melee, speeds up and reinforces infantry. More of a straight in and start killing shit super than Avatar (aura) and GUO (abilities). Vehicle armor so doesn't care about plasma or power melee.
- Battlewagon: Underrated and underused, I think. It's just that most ppl expect to field their super and then just faceroll the enemy by sending it in solo. Well that generally fails with any super but it's most obvious with the BW. It's more about using the mobility and abilities with this. Wartrukks can't beat Falcons either, but it doesn't mean the trukks are useless.

[Pseudonymn]

What would happen, exactly, if I went to a DoW forum (or the DoW subforum on here, assuming it had some specific active members left) and started making "tiny little comments"?

Gorb, are you implying that my first comment in this thread was done with the express intent to troll these forums? Or are you saying that there are other people here who like to troll these forums who jump at any opportunity to stir shit up the first moment someone comes along with a dissenting point of view?

Also, it's funny that you should mention Maktaka. Sure, he's done some great stuff and I have tons and tons of respect for what he's accomplished. And it's great that he really likes DoW2 and that you can pull him in to somehow support your point of view by proxy and all that. But for every Maktaka, there's a Thudmeizer (Thudo). I seem to recall him not liking DoW2 much at all, which is too bad for us because DoW2 will be denied a kick ass Skirmish AI mod like we have in DoW1. He even went so far as to say something about it playing like a console game and how it reflects how the modern gaming industry has progressed (or regressed) generally - all flash and bling with no substance. If you can't respect my opinion, which most of you clearly don't, could you respect his? Or would the DoW2 fanwagon come roaring up to beat him down too? Maybe it already has and that's the reason he never comes around these parts anymore that I've seen? I don't know, that's just speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[Edit] And just so nobody can accuse me of pulling shit out of my ass, here's at least one quote that I find rather hilarious:

I do not remotely share your unabated enthusiasm over DoW2. There are some massively glaring SP and MP gameplay problems which are already discussed apart from the fact the whole DoW2 feels more like a dumb console RTS than something which requires more tactical intellect. Adding the layer with Steam and GFWL just complicates an already larger mess which likely can never be fixed since its embedded into the game. I find it VERY hard to transition to it simply because of many deal-breaking factors but mainly because it "tard-ifies me" since key gameplay aspects were lessened so that it would appeal to more people. Meh.

Soure: http://forums.revora.net/topic/68990...i/#entry684320

[Arbit]

Battlewagon is awesome. It's an anti-all artillery transport with an extremely good anti-melee steamroller. It will beat a laspred one on one pretty handily, destroy setup teams quite easily, and crush most heavy melee with its steamroller (with certain exceptions, like ogryns, termies, and commanders). The megaboomshot ability is generally not worth the red but that's OK.

Pseudonymn, why repost an inflammatory screed like that? DoWII is a "feels more like a dumb console port" that doesn't require "tactical intellect" and "tard-ifies" you, OK. Let the mutual respecting of one another's opinions commence.

[Hollow]

Oh hai. Let´s start, shall we?.

DoW 2 is an okay game, settled a new kind of hybrid between the tactical field and the RPG factor (which on these days many moba-type games have, or even before!); however many people wanted a DoW 1 with prettier graphics and the blacklash happened - in massive ways?, maybe.

If Relic gets to do DoW 3, the relevant aspect of it would be it´s social specifications. It would be more open to a "facebook" style game (it was also hinted?. Someone correct me if I am wrong), but at the same time it would bring some of the aspects of DoW 1 and (haters gonna hate) DoW 2; will it be awesome?. Maybe. Will it bring another 360 degree change?. Who knows, perhaps yes.

Let us however throw away the nostalgia googles; the industry, from good to bad (totally I advocate for worse, considering the Michael Bay-esque of a lot of games in this "generation", if it would be considered as a generation); DoW 1 was a cool game, but aside of that, it had a downpeak which started to decrease from it´s very first expansion (and I am talking here competitevilly, not around sales or even playerbase), the reasons were many and different trough opinions (sometimes even beign more objective, but ah well). What is the point of all of this?. Is it really good to keep the old values of it´s very first incarnation or is it bad to just take another way and make things (objectivelly) more interesting?. The player decides, after all, the money is in the bag and it´s the player´s choice his very end.

I remember somewhere, someone told about entiltement, and I sure ask myself that: Did we really grow up upon selfishnesh and bias?. Because at this point, the only thing I saw in the DoW community (and excuse me if I would be very rude) is: E-drama, the "I want, I want!" attitude or the entiltement.

The point is: The player doesn´t really know what he or she really wants.

[Pseudonymn]

^ You've got to be joking me. Right? Do you actually believe any of that? Or are you just parroting industry garbage shoveled out the door by the likes of this douchey editor in chief?

Arbit, why is it inflammatory to say such things, coming from someone whose opinion of this game could easily be classified as "expert"? All that really tells me is, as we've seen so many times before, that these forums are generally intolerant of anyone or anything that is critical in anyway of DoW2. Or anything else Relic does. The only thing people around here want to hear is how great things are and how we're just can't wait to get into the next round of DoW:FC. We wouldn't be having this conversation were it not so.

[Arbit]

1) What are Thudo's qualifications as an expert?
2) None of what he said qualifies as useful criticism.

[Pseudonymn]

What are Thudo's qualifications as an expert

Seriously? O.o

No, really, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this comment. You do know who this dude is, don't you?

[Codex]

Oh wow? If anyone had any criticism that is constructive, open and unbiased, people would accept it as opinion. Opinions are welcome on RN, believe it. After months I believe you are biased against DOW2, that's why I don't give your words credit. Plain and simple. In the same way I wouldn't believe a single word George W Bush said about WMDs in Iraq, and I wouldn't believe Al Gore saying Global Warming is true without sufficient support.

You're claiming that this forum is intolerant of criticism towards dow2. That's like saying that feminists are intolerant of females. Sorry, Relicnews is one of the most open minded forums in the whole world, and if you don't see that then I don't know who can convince you of this fact. If you've got evidence, show us. We're rational, after all. Stop calling our scepticism bias before you even know us.

[CommissarRezail]

Sorry, Relicnews is one of the most open minded forums in the whole world, and if you don't see that then I don't know who can convince you of this fact.

Emperor bless you Codex, your 100 percent right on the dime with that. Considering I've been on a lot of forums and this is the most less chew you down and spit you out place then most others. Dow 2 official forum would make you mad in 2 post, you wouldn't get a opinion out with out it being torn down and labeled incorrect logic and should be removed, even if your right.

[Arbit]

Seriously? O.o

No, really, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this comment. You do know who this dude is, don't you?

I gather he did work on the AI mod for DoW1. That doesn't automatically make him an expert on DoW2.

Did he achieve a significant degree of skill at DoW2? Has he played the game post TiOW?

[Logic_Bomb]

Did he achieve a significant degree of skill at DoW2? Has he played the game post TiOW?

My money is on "No" to both. Most people who disliked Dow2 disliked it upon sight and so naturally did not play it much, which is what you'd expect if you don't initially like something. Thus my point earlier that they never really played the game in its prime or knew much about it past the first few months. It's silly to pretend that you have more than a superficial passing understanding of the game though if you've passed on it within months of it being released. Said person is judging based on scant information/ experience. For example, this quote that Pseudonym is using (not sure why he is trying to use someone else to speak for him, but anyway...) was written in February 2009, which places it right around....beta time! So yeah, not really relevant to how the game ultimately turned out but obviously for this guy he didn't like the direction it seemed to be taking and he bowed out, fair enough. I can think of a couple players off the top of my head who were "expert" good, competitive players who played both Dow 1 and 2 (Pega and Compeador) who I would consider having a better perspective on the pros and cons of the two games but then again, it's just 2 more people's opinions amongst thousands on an issue that is fading into the sunset. I don't see what the point to any of this is...sadly I don't think there will be a Dow3 from Relic/THQ without a miracle.