*Something* about DoW3...

[Shuma]

How nostalgic, it's like we're back in 2009. Haven't posted in this section in a while, but something caught my eye that i think i should comment on:

You're claiming that this forum is intolerant of criticism towards dow2. That's like saying that feminists are intolerant of females. Sorry, Relicnews is one of the most open minded forums in the whole world, and if you don't see that then I don't know who can convince you of this fact.

I just want to say, that i can't even remember how many times i got pms from the moderation staff telling me to stop "complaining" about DoW II and Space Marine. In the case of Space Marine i even got pms that basically said "you've said everything you have to say, stop bitching or i'll ban you", and i don't mind that, these aren't my forums and the staff can run them in whatever way they please, and if i didn't like these forums i wouldn't post on them, but saying that they're not "intolerant" is just false.

I don't want to get into a stupid argument, so i probably wont reply again, but just saying.

[CommissarRezail]

I'm guessing they do that to allow other people to get their word in and prevent undertone trolling ahead of time.

[Codex]

I've gotten a PM saying pretty much a cease and desist on Gabriel Gorgutz... initially it started fair and trying to be constructive, yet eventually it was like beating a dead horse, going nowhere. Does that mean that RN is intolerant of anti-GG sentiments? No, it means they don't want pages of droll and the same tired arguments cropping up again.

I can assure you you could've drawn the same critical PM by posting the same tired pro-DOW2/Space Marine arguments against GG or Masterblaster.

[Pseudonymn]

Oh, here we go. Do you people not see the double standard here? You all have no problems pointing to other DoW heroes (and I don't use that word lightly) whose views are pro-DoW2 in support of whatever argument it is your camp is making. But a dude who's spent god-knows how many volunteer hours improving the previous game for all of our benefit, deep inside the code, the very guts of the game's mechanics, and who has by the way played DoW2; such a person is instantaneously defrocked and stripped of all credentials and is labeled a biased schmuck for having anything negative whatsoever to say about the game that you all cherish? And with something so completely weak, lame, and off base as, "Hurrr, eH duzunt pleh teh gehmz, durrrr."

And these forums are tolerant? Sure they're tolerant. The staff are pretty liberal by and large. No, it's YOU lot that make it the way it is.

For Chrissakes! The man earned his right to speak his mind in ways that far exceed any credentials earned by merely playing the fucking game! He made the damned thing better and still you lot stick your fingers in your ears and shout him down! The bias is spread pretty thick on that. Pretty thick indeed! You want me to provide you with evidence? Look to yourselves!

Unbelievable!

He applied his expertise and appraised DoW2 for what it is: a game reduced in stature to appeal to a broader audience.

Inb4 u mad bro? Yeah, I'm mad.

[Edit]

ot sure why he is trying to use someone else to speak for him, but anyway...

Try reading the whole thread, bro.

[Logic_Bomb]

Oh, here we go. Do you people not see the double standard here? You all have no problems pointing to other DoW heroes (and I don't use that word lightly) whose views are pro-DoW2 in support of whatever argument it is your camp is making. But a dude who's spent god-knows how many volunteer hours improving the previous game for all of our benefit, deep inside the code, the very guts of the game's mechanics, and who has by the way played DoW2; such a person is instantaneously defrocked and stripped of all credentials and is labeled a biased schmuck for having anything negative whatsoever to say about the game that you all cherish? And with something so completely weak, lame, and off base as, "Hurrr, eH duzunt pleh teh gehmz, durrrr."

And these forums are tolerant? Sure they're tolerant. The staff are pretty liberal by and large. No, it's YOU lot that make it the way it is.

For Chrissakes! The man earned his right to speak his mind in ways that far exceed any credentials earned by merely playing the fucking game! He made the damned thing better and still you lot stick your fingers in your ears and shout him down! The bias is spread pretty thick on that. Pretty thick indeed! You want me to provide you with evidence? Look to yourselves!

Unbelievable!

He applied his expertise and appraised DoW2 for what it is: a game reduced in stature to appeal to a broader audience.

Inb4 u mad bro? Yeah, I'm mad.

[Edit]Try reading the whole thread, bro.

Hmmm....
Nice use of histrionic hyperbole....+10 points
Persuasive division of people into "opposing camps"....+5 points
Use of the phrases "YOU lot" "u mad bro?" "For Chrissakes" and "biased schmuk"....+10 points
Clipped spelling in the use of edit function.....-10 points
Expression of festering, malingering emotional issues over percieved persecution in disliking dow2......+5 points

Total: 20 points!

Seriously, lighten up. 2009 is over. Some people liked it. Some people didn't. Why all the fuss now?

[Arbit]

Re:Thudo - His expertise in coding AI and playing for at most a month of the beta? How does that make him an expert? His post was also full of partisan words you throw out to people of like mind - consolified, dumbed down, tardified, etc. I don't much like consoles - I've never even owned one - but throwing around words like that indicates a certain bias towards old-school, PC centric attitudes that, to me, calls the user's objectivity into question. Also note that Gorb cited Maktaka to bolster his position, a tactic that I don't necessarily approve of. Not everyone defending DoW2 is part of a hivemind that you can address as if we were all one person. (Although as an aside I would Maktaka's opinion over Thudo's and it seems he has significant experience with the game. If I were to solicit expert negative opinions, I would seek out high skill players that suddenly disappeared, like... well I'm shitty with names but Stellviax is ringing a bell... I'm sure there are others)

He applied his expertise and appraised DoW2 for what it is: a game reduced in stature to appeal to a broader audience.

I've never understood this line of thinking. How was adopting some of the more radical elements of CoH (tactical focus, limited base building, suppression, retreating, global abilities) a cynical ploy to broaden DoW2's appeal? If Relic really were going for the dumbdown money grubbing sellout angle, wouldn't they have gone with a more conventional Starcraft style RTS?

While DoW2 is definitely more lightweight than DoW1 or CoH, it obviously has its own direction and is not just a cutdown version of DoW1 for stupid people. I understand not liking it but going so far as to call it consolified and implying that Relic compromised making a good game so they can market it to tards is an indicator of bias to me.

[Logic_Bomb]

If I were to solicit expert negative opinions, I would seek out high skill players that suddenly disappeared, like... well I'm shitty with names but Stellviax is ringing a bell

Stellviax actually played the game a lot and right up to and including Rebellion. One of the best 1v1 players Dow2 had. He quit due to Korea's mandatory military service obligations.

I honestly don't know any players that disliked it intensely but came back to give it a proper assessment once it hit its stride (around 1.9 of vanilla and then into late Chaos Rising once it got better balanced I'd say) - players like that though would probably have a good, objective opinion on how much the game evolved and improved with time but really, it still comes down personal taste. For some people, no base building and small army sizes was a deal breaker that no amount of refinement would change.

I honestly don't understand the big divide though - I loved both games. The thing I especially liked in Dow2 was that yes, you had a smaller number of units, but most of those units all had like 2-4 abilities and the whole fun of the game was using those in combination with your hero and global abilities. It made for very focused, fast, fun and dynamic gameplay where positioning, tactics, and ability usage was everything. Totally different from CoH and Dow1 in my opinion. And that is a good thing. I like variety. I like all those games and don't expect any of them to play like each other. But, to each his own...

[Pseudonymn]

How does that make him an expert

How does anything make anyone an expert? What qualifies a jeweler to appraise the value of a diamond? What qualifies an art collector to appraise the worth of a painting? What qualifies a mechanic to appraise that clunking sound my car is making? After all, he hasn't been driving my car for the last couple days, he has no experience with my particular car and its nuanced driving characteristics. How can I trust that, with only a verbal description and a half hour spent with my car hoisted up in the garage; that his opinion is both valid and unbiased? It's his field of expertise and I trust that his appraisal will be professionally recounted.

I'm dismayed that we should even have to go over this. Are pro-DoW2 sentiments so biased that they will not allow for fields of expertise that do not fall under such narrow scopes as "You must play the game first or GTFO"?

The whole problem with your argument is you narrow the field to exclude ALL other experiences outside of DoW2; if someone hasn't played the game then they are not qualified to make even educated guesses as to its characteristics, even when those that on the surface are blatantly obvious to any casual observer, never mind the fact that guys like Thudo have clearly demonstrated their technical capabilities and are far from being merely casual in their approach to things. But that doesn't seem to be important to those defending DoW2's shortcomings. The go-to argument has always been, "If you didn't play it, you're not qualified to express your opinion here," a position that is pursued most aggressively.

If your hangup is really about Thudo's semantics, then I apologize. I could have chosen one of his more direct appraisals and perhaps avoided some unpleasant reactions to his points of view. That was my mistake, not his. Let's try this one then perhaps, regarding why he and his team are not as keen to work with the game to beef up the AI:

But see what really needs to be changed to make the DoW2 Adv. AI better? Half the AI game logic for DoW1 AI was embedded in building and base logic. There is none of that in DoW2 so thats half the work load gone. Then yer left with a simplistic gameplay model. Sure we can change the fact the DoW2 AI likes to stupidly pump out vehicles in its later tiers but in the end there isn't much for us to do especially in light that this sequel is quite basic in its underlying delivery. Configurable Commanders = Warcraft3 w/o the base building and manual resource economy.

source: http://forums.revora.net/topic/68990...i/#entry684341

[Logic_Bomb]

To answer your question, I would say that experts are generally considered to be very skillful/experienced/knowledgeable in their field. Your jeweller, art collector, car mechanic examples? They would have to be experienced and skilled in working with those items. Most car mechanics understand and know the inner workings of various makes of car even if they don't personally drive the model you've brought in.

From your description, it sounds like Thudmeizer is an expert in modding computer games, or more specifically, the AI of Relic games. If I were interested in knowing how the AI functions in DowI or DowII, I would refer to him and value his opinion as an expert. If I am interested in knowing if I will like the MP of DowII, I will probably not ask someone like Thudmeizer. So in that area, yes, if you haven't played the game much, your opinion will be fairly meaningless. Sports "experts" for example, generally have all played the game and even commentators are usually retired, formerly pro players. The idea of a hockey expert who has never played hockey is kind of laughable so I wouldn't call this "bias", I'd call it common sense. Although there are some that are "experts" in making sports equipment or in dealing with sports injuries and other peripheral areas.

Reading your new quote, it sounds like he was disappointed that the AI was dumbed down - totally understandable. The AI in DowII was rather brain-dead and I don't blame people only interested in comp stomps from quitting it. It probably wasn't an interesting or rewarding challenge for him to work with and if I remember right, DoWII wasn't even as mod friendly as DowI, but I am no expert in this area.

[Arbit]

I'll defer to Mr. Bomb's response, which is better written and more polite than mine would have been

[Warboss_Al]

I have to agree with pseudonymn. The main reason I stay away from here these days is the massive circlejerk going on that seems to involve pretending that DoW 2 has been a massive runaway international success with loads of tournaments and a massive, constant plasybase that shows no signs of decreasing. And then some elements of the relicnews forums seem to use this fabricated reality as justification for relic pushing DoW 3 down a similar path. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't massive hypocrites about it. Every time a thread about DoW 3 comes up, the DoW 2 lovers seem to suggest that DoW 3 should be essentially DoW 2 +, while screaming at people that like DoW 1 that relic should 'continue evolving' and try something new and equivalent bollocks.

I don't think DoW 2 is a terrible game. Just mediocre. And pretending its been a massively popular success seems the most impeding thing to progression to me.

[Logic_Bomb]

Wow - you used the word "massive" 5 times man! Do you understand the meaning of "hypocrite"? Who is being a hypocrite and in what way? Who is claiming Dow2 has been a "massive runaway international success with loads of tournaments and a massive, constant plasybase (sic) that shows no signs of decreasing."? With what exactly are you agreeing with pseudonymn? That Thudomeizer is a Dow2 expert? Or just that you both don't want Dow3 to be like Dow2? I sometimes have trouble understanding what people are talking about amongst all the massive exaggeration. Since you brought it up though, yes, Dow2 was an international success.
http://kotaku.com/5165265/dawn-of-wa...lobal-pc-sales
It did have quite a healthy number of tournaments over the years as well. I helped organize and run two of them myself on Relicnews here. There were many more run by Gr.org and by Dow2live. There were many more run by European German and Russian sites as well. In fact in terms of the success of the game and the number of competitive tournaments it spawned, I think it's fair to say you have no clue what you are talking about. It had a large enough playerbase at its peak - easily between 5000-10,000 for most of its lifecycle. I don't think anyone will try to argue that its playerbase has not massively dropped off at this point though. I don't play it any longer myself. But I do have a fondness for clarity and accuracy while others love their MASSIVE HYPERBOLE! (sorry, had to use that phrase one more time).

[CommissarRezail]

Wait wait wait, wouldn't this make me an expert too also makes logic bomb, codex Well everyone who played dow2 experts . Hey why argue with him, now we all are experts . I think i like being an expert.

[Warboss_Al]

I'm agreeing with his opinion that you cant get a word in edgewise due to being shouted down by the DoW 2 fanboys.

The DoW 2 fanboys are being hypocritical because they go on about how relic should keep trying new things when someone who likes DoW 1 comes along, but always seem to imply they want DoW 3 to be just like DoW 2, with tiny skirmishes, no base building, tacticool bloody screen so real low model count combat. How is that not hypocritical? Copying DoW 2 is not trying something new. It's called copying DoW 2.

And when I say tournaments, I mean with actual cash prizes. The E-sport type stuff which relic seemed to be aiming for. Not what essentially amounts to clan wars.

And considering retribution was released just over a year ago I think it's kind of pathetic for the player base to be this low already. RTS games tend to attract a more dedicated following than the run of the mill fps games, due to them being fairly few and far between. I also remember threads where people complained about people not playing automatch because you could get ranks in custom games, and people generally not playing when they hit 60. That kind of begs the question, if a lot of people need an incentive to play in the first place then do they really find it all that enjoyable? What happened to playing the game for its own sake?

Once again, I'm not saying DoW 2 is a terrible game. Just really mediocre. 6/10. Enjoyable to a minority, but most people won't get a satisfying RTS experience from it. The only thing I feel that propelled it in the first place is the name, and the pretty visuals. Oh, and a decent campaign.

And adding that [sic] in was really quite childish and irrelevant. It just looks like you're trying to discredit what I say due to a spelling error.

[Malachi]

Every time a thread about DoW 3 comes up, the DoW 2 lovers seem to suggest that DoW 3 should be essentially DoW 2 +, while screaming at people that like DoW 1 that relic should 'continue evolving' and try something new and equivalent bollocks.

Care to show some examples? My experience is that the vast majority of people in those threads want DOW 3 to be a massive scale game, like SupCom or Total War, which I disagree with, as I would actually want it to be around DOW1 scale, even if I liked DOW 2 a bit more than 1.

[Pseudonymn]

^ That's not the vibe I'm getting. I participated in a thread recently where I was arguing for larger model counts from a purely aesthetic point of view but they don't even want the eye candy changed. Suggesting a change to the bloody eye candy offends them! They like their low model counts and God only knows why. I can't remember for the life of me where I ran up against that solid wall of hate. Oh, wait! It was this thread!

[CommissarRezail]

^ That's not the vibe I'm getting. I participated in a thread recently where I was arguing for larger model counts from a purely aesthetic point of view but they don't even want the eye candy changed. Suggesting a change to the bloody eye candy offends them! They like their low model counts and God only knows why. I can't remember for the life of me where I ran up against that solid wall of hate. Oh, wait! It was this thread!

Link us this thread, I DEMAND TO SEE IT!!!

[Logic_Bomb]

Pseudonymn and Warboss_Al,
You guys are hilarious. "A solid wall of hate"?? Seriously? Being "shouted down"? If you mean disagreeing with comments that are plainly wrong (not an international success, not many tournaments, etc.) then yes, people will disagree. Honestly, the massive exaggerations, sweeping generalizations, inflammatory comments, and general butthurt whiny nature are ridiculous. I do not care whether you like Dow2 or not. I am perfectly fine if you absolutely hate it. People might, might, take you slightly more seriously if you responded without the pentup nerdrage. Lumping everyone into a category of "Dow2 fanboys on a massive circlejerk" and pretending we all think alike is tempting when you have pentup nerdrage, but you should really try to resist that temptation and be a little more intelligent. Look back at what I said I hoped for in Dow3 for example in post 13 and cut out the stupid generalizations and persecution complex.
Re: Tournaments - lol so only tournaments with cash prizes count? What if I tell you many of them had cash prizes? Is there a certain dollar amount at which point they become valid tournaments? Maybe babes on stage with the winner is also a requirement? A trophy? Lolololo...like it or not - a LOT OF PEOPLE LIKED DOW2 AND IT WAS A FINANCIAL SUCCESS AND HAD TOURNAMENTS WITH CASH PRIZES AND SOOOO MANY PEOPLE HAD FUN PLAYING IT OMG NOOOOO!! BUT IT'S SOOOOO TERRRRIBLE!!!! NO!!!! I CAN'T BEAR TO HEAR THE TRUTH!!! PLEASE MAKE IT GO AWAYYYY!!! THE VOICES!!!! DO YOU HEAR THEM TOO!!!???

[CommissarRezail]

I'm pretty sure people in that thread gave a very good reason not to raise model count, and wasn't doing " NO MODEL COUNT ME MAD NOW YOU WRONG AHH AHH AHH OUUGA BOOGAA".

[Codex]

I don't care about the state of DOW3, except that I want it to be polished and Relic to have enough time to make it awesome. I trust Relic to make the right choices there. Hence I pretty much don't care about those DOW3 speculation threads.

With regards to defending DOW2, I should state that I got into WH40K through DOW1. I loved that game and I love it still. That said, I have my reasons for disliking both games. DOW2 is fast paced, puts a large emphasis on making every choice significant, but the game becomes a little too much cat and mouse in 1v1, due to the large number of points per person.

Whatever, I don't care if you like DOW2 or not. But the reasons for saying that the low model count fits is because this game is about being tactical and using cover. In COH, it's sometimes pretty atrociously difficult to get all your squad members into cover, even when that cover is a wall interposed by an open wooden gate. That's only with squad sizes of 6 Riflemen. If you're going to make the game about tactics and abilities, there's good reason to keep the squad numbers low too, so you can actually feasibly control all your squads and use their abilities in every engagement.

For me, it all makes sense. I don't like games involving just swarming your screen with units and attack moving armies against each other. DOW2 has been called a Real Time Tactics game. I don't think that's an insult.

[Warboss_Al]

For someone flinging around accusations of nerdrage you sure do use a lot of capitals.

[Pseudonymn]

Logicbomb, you might want to go back to the beginning of this thread and point out the exact moment when disagreements, sweeping generalizations, inflammatory comments, hyperbole, and other assorted bullshit were first flung into another person's backyard here. It sure as fuck wasn't started by me. I started out by agreeing with another poster. The disagreements came after. FFS, I even tried to suggest that we NOT go this fucking route but some people here just wouldn't let it the fuck alone!

Seriously, go have a look and then come back here and tell me that all I really have is a persecution complex.

I'm not your good little forum lurker and I will not STFU and GTFO because I have opinions that run contrary to this forum's established religion.

But the reasons for saying that the low model count fits is because this game is about being tactical and using cover [snip] In COH, it's sometimes pretty atrociously difficult to get all your squad members into cover, even when that cover is a wall interposed by an open wooden gate. That's only with squad sizes of 6 Riflemen.

So sacrifice artistic integrity for a cheap band-aid solution? Right. Got it. I guess, you know, adding a few more green dots would be much too hard to encode.

[CommissarRezail]

Plus they have to rebuild the engine so cover works for larger squads, as if you played you notice not all of the guardsmen can fight behind cover. Considering their large squad don't allow them... So a 20 man guard squad, would suffer such great losses , not to mention they have to reduce the hp on each model then re do the damage of the guns. All that to compensate for having a 20 man squad that could floor armies in it self , if its damage is kept and hp kept the same, per model. Again the cover system would have to re made. Not to mention Maps would have to be blown up and pathing would need to be find tuned, you have to figure out a way to get the whole squad to fire, because there would be men in the back not firing, when they fight targets at long range.

Hmm transport probably need to retune considering 3 squads of 20-100 members would just be a insane rush, not to mention people machines may not be able to handle it.

You can still have a tactical cover based game with larger squads but it be insane pathing, unit damage have to be tone down so it means no more space marine strength. Lots more spaming, horma guants may be spamed for days and it probably won't hurt nid economy. Guardian nade spam would be insanely lethal if not changed . :P it b funny to watch. You see space marine models die to a few htis.

[Arbit]

I'm not your good little forum lurker and I will not STFU and GTFO because I have opinions that run contrary to this forum's established religion.

Fight the power man!!!

So sacrifice artistic integrity for a cheap band-aid solution? Right. Got it. I guess, you know, adding a few more green dots would be much too hard to encode.

Shit, why didn't Relic think of that? Just add more green dots, problem solved! Or could there more things at play? More things that have been repeatedly explained to you but you refuse to acknowledge? No no, Relic definitely decided to sacrifice "artistic integrity" because they were too lazy to add more green dots and everyone defending Relic are clearly brainwashed drones incapable of independent thought.

Stepping through your thought processes is kind of a scary experience.

[Logic_Bomb]

Seriously, go have a look and then come back here and tell me that all I really have is a persecution complex.

I'm not your good little forum lurker and I will not STFU and GTFO because I have opinions that run contrary to this forum's established religion.

Who told you to STFU and GTFO? I think you proved your persecution complex quite well already right here but, if you really insist on a highlight reel of your comments regarding sweeping generalizations, hyperbole, and inflammatory comments, I will oblige you:

This. FUCKING THIS! I swear to god, if DoW3 goes the way of DoW2 and only gives us a couple hundred points worth of models to play with, I'll lose my shit.

It's utter bullshit

they keep trying to reinvent the wheel here and they have the DoW2 fanboys to encourage them

because appealing to the casuals and drawing audiences from the frenetic COD crowd wasn't actually one of their stated goals, just like they said numerous times in previews and interviews. Yo dawg, Relic heard that you liked to micro so they microed the scale so you could micro more while you micro.

the whole DoW2 feels more like a dumb console RTS....I find it VERY hard to transition to it simply because of many deal-breaking factors but mainly because it "tard-ifies me"

Do you actually believe any of that? Or are you just parroting industry garbage shoveled out the door by the likes of this douchey editor in chief?

The only thing people around here want to hear is how great things are and how we're just can't wait to get into the next round of DoW:FC.

such a person is instantaneously defrocked and stripped of all credentials and is labeled a biased schmuck for having anything negative whatsoever to say about the game that you all cherish? And with something so completely weak, lame, and off base as, "Hurrr, eH duzunt pleh teh gehmz, durrrr."

For Chrissakes! The man earned his right to speak his mind in ways that far exceed any credentials earned by merely playing the fucking game!

I think it all stems from the past for you. You came in the thread not with a fresh, open mind, but with past resentment and lingering anger towards "Dow2 fanboys". Thus a mountain out of a molehill erupted at the drop of a hat because you were looking for it. No one told you to STFU or GTFO. They just disagreed with you. You really shouldn't take it personally though. You're in the Dow2 section and you dislike the game so it's not surprising you are in the minority and that the majority disagree with you. There's no reason why it has to turn ugly though. Heated maybe. I disagree with you and Warboss Al but it's just opinions on a game - nothing personal.
(Apologies for the massive omnislash of quotes - he did ask for examples though)

[Pseudonymn]

That's not what I asked at all. I asked for you to find the one point in which someone else disagreed with and attacked another person in this thread. You failed to demonstrate any understanding of even this most simple of problems. Hell, you even managed to misquote me and attribute to me something that somebody else said. LOLWTF!

Further to that, you've demonstrated by your confused interpretation of my request that, really, in your mind this is in fact all about me. I never once attacked anyone's position or opinion here in my opening comments. Not. One. Fucking. Time. That came later and was started by others but somehow you managed to gloss over key events in this thread in order to make your point. You didn't quote the parts where I was trying to be reasonable, trying to stay out of the troubles, trying not to let this become another shit slinging contest. No, you took only those parts that you wanted to show. Have I been angry and loud in this thread? Yes. But not without provocation. No one has said specifically that I should stfu&gtfo, but it's heavily implied and, for some of us here like Shuma, PM'd and threatened behind closed doors.

I could omnislash you in return and show all the times you've been condescending, rude, and insulting, in particular with your pursuit of this persecution complex wedge you keep hammering away at. But what would that serve?

Look, this just crossed the line and has gotten stupid. Sorry for derailing the thread everyone, that was never my intention. Go on and talk about your DoW3, I've said my piece.

[Edit] Nah, I lied, just one more thing.

things that have been repeatedly explained to you but you refuse to acknowledge

Oh, I acknowledge the explanations. I just don't accept them. There's an important distinction there. Where you accept the explanations as design difficulties now impossible to change, I view them as design decisions that should never have been made in the first place, especially if it would lead to a problem that could never be corrected. If there's not enough room on the map for more green dots, well shit, that's been a much complained about problem (small maps) from the beginning even by staunch supporters of DoW2. Just becuase you're willing to accept these things does not mean that I should have to.

[ThunderHost]

Wobble

[CommissarRezail]

Oh, I acknowledge the explanations. I just don't accept them.

Yeah i do the same thing with newtons 3 laws.

At any rate, I hope custom armies, mean I can seriously fcking customize them, did i tell you guys that i want a all storm trooper army, with st for tier 1 units, like recruit storm troopers for tier 1. Something like coh panzer elite except with storm troopers. The army have no heavy armor, however heavily modified strike chimera. Orgyn swould be change out with Elite storm troopers armed with plasma rifles. switch senti with mortar bike squad. Replace leman Russ with call in valkyrie strike. Mm what to replace bane blade with.

[Arbit]

Oh, I acknowledge the explanations. I just don't accept them. There's an important distinction there. Where you accept the explanations as design difficulties now impossible to change, I view them as design decisions that should never have been made in the first place, especially if it would lead to a problem that could never be corrected. If there's not enough room on the map for more green dots, well shit, that's been a much complained about problem (small maps) from the beginning even by staunch supporters of DoW2. Just becuase you're willing to accept these things does not mean that I should have to.

No, I accept them as consequences of a design Relic chose. They chose a small enough scale that it makes sense to micro a single devastator's firing arc. They chose a small enough scale so you when a sync kills occurs, you don't have to zoom in in the replay to tell what is going on. They chose a scale that shows off the impact of commander special attacks and abilities. Coming in and complaining that they need more models and they need more green dots and they need bigger maps is like going into a Street Fighter 4 forum and complaining, hey, why's this shit gotta be in two dimensions? And then calling everyone a fanboy when they tell you to move on with life and play a different game if you don't like it.

In case I'm not being clear here, you're demanding changes to fundamental elements of the game design, and when people point out that isn't feasible and that ship has long since sailed, you refuse to even acknowledge that they are fundamental to the game design and start accusing everyone here of bias and heap all sorts of bizarre accusations on Relic. "Sacrificing artistic integrity" by having less than 8 man tac squads.... get a grip, man.

[darklordzx]

there are various things that i dont like from DoW2 and i hope that relic dont go to that way again

1) Small battle/skirmishes: I'm not saying that is bad addition the tactical feel of COH to a warhammer game, but the battles are skirmishes, not a full war that is warhammer 40k, in DoW1 you can made a army and send them to battle, but i think that nobody like a zerg rush...
2) Variety of units: in DoW2 Has a plenty good units but some replaces the old one of DoW1 and some doesn't appear in DoW2 (Defiler, Possessed space marine, Eldar Fire Dragon, Hellfire Dreadnought, land speeder, etc...) if they are thinking to do a DoW3 with major scaler than DoW1 with elements of DoW2 i think that some units needs to reappear and new others are welcome
3)Wargear, Weapons and Cutomization: I think that the wargear and "special" weapons should not be restricted only to the commanders units, a more deeper customization is welcome, not just "made you scheme colour of your army and name it! and look your army is original lololol". creation of new units made by the player and some pre-made for one especific chapter/warband/craftworld/ork clan(?)/imperial Regiment (Blood Angels Death Company, Word Bearers Dark Apostles and daemons, Black Templar Sword brethren, etc)

It's too much to ask for the Titans to Dawn of War 3, but the community can handle that...
P.S. Air Units (thunderhawks, valkyries, Hell talon, etc) could be fine also but thats need a new whole engine to make it work so i guess that is not possible

may not all that I wrote will be for the next game of dawn of war but one man can dream

[comradegrumpy]

@ Warboss_Al - If the particular DoW2 'fanboy' to whom you refer in this quote, is, for example, me

The DoW 2 fanboys are being hypocritical because they go on about how relic should keep trying new things when someone who likes DoW 1 comes along, but always seem to imply they want DoW 3 to be just like DoW 2, with tiny skirmishes, no base building, tacticool bloody screen so real low model count combat. How is that not hypocritical? Copying DoW 2 is not trying something new. It's called copying DoW 2.

then I both resent your implication and deny its truth. I did express a desire that base-building be left out of DoW3, and I also mentioned that I enjoyed the small-scale, intense combat of DoW2. These expressed views in no way represent hypocrisy, and in no way conflict with my expressed desire that Relic continue to innovate in the RTS genre. In short, calm down and read a freakin' dictionary to find a definition of hypocrisy. Furthermore, ad hominem attacks on random bystanders don't further your case.

Hell, most of the 'DoW2 fanboys' who've posted in this thread also enjoyed DoW1 (I certainly did - it was a bloody masterpiece, IMO). We just disagree with your opinion that DoW2 was fundamentally pretty crap.

[Warboss_Al]

I never said DoW 2 was crap. Just not great. I just resent people taking it as a pinnacle of innovation and the next step that all RTS' should take. Because if that was the case, I would be out of a decent RTS fix for a long time. Granted, it's not everyone that's like this, just a small minority that get really grating. It seems excessively selfish of this minority to want the same again. I'm annoyed because DoW 1 was probably the most recent RTS game I actually enjoyed. Though soulstorm admittedly was not particularly exceptional.

And why does everyone seem to think I'm angry? If anything, I'm slightly happy. DoW 2 being dead this soon should surely show that this style of game is not something to pursue for future endeavors.

[Demiurg]

And why does everyone seem to think I'm angry? If anything, I'm slightly happy. DoW 2 being dead this soon should surely show that this style of game is not something to pursue for future endeavors.

Only slightly happy? Come on, I'm sure you were positively gleeful after posting such a smug trolling comment?

DoW2 isn't dead, and won't be until there isn't anyone left who enjoys it. I am one of that still significant number.

I loved DoW1, but when DoW2 came out I tried it and liked it even more. Development is good, which is why I'm interested to see how DoW3 will turn out, however long that takes.

I suggest you go and play DoW1 if that's the last RTS you enjoyed.

[Arbit]

DoW2 wasn't a failure but it's pretty clear by the diminishing player base that it didn't grab people the way DoW1 did, either. I think most people here realize that Relic is going to mix up the formula for DoW3. Also, no one ever said it's the pinnacle of innovation and the next step that all RTS' should take, so kindly stop putting words in peoples' mouths, Warboss.

The upshot of all this is it inspired me to fire up the game again and it's still awesome

[Shoota Fodder]

Wobble

I agree, ThunderHost.

Everyone should sit back and take a deep breath. Everyone should read the thread from start to finish and realise how off topic, pointless and childish this whole thing is. I personally hated DoW2. It didn't have the same 'feel' as the first one. But you've all heard the arguments before so I'm not going to interrupt the flow of this topic to throw it back out again. If someone doesn't like the game, let them not like them. If someone likes the game, let them like it. It's as simple as that, so can we all get talking about DoW3 now? I'm up for some speculation.

Personally I'm hoping for something more resembling CoH. Something with completely different tech trees and methods of progression for each faction, interesting structures and less open maps. One of the problems I have with DoW2 was how sparse everything felt. There were never bottleknecks or chokepoints you could hold or seize. I hated 'Into The Breach' in DoW as much as the next guy, but going to the other end of the spectrum (Or so it feels to me) was a bad choice as well. If not more interesting maps, then a larger unit count so you can actually hold some of your points rather than waiting for the enemy to strike and charging your army across the map to counter them.

Also, one of the things I never understood about DoW2 was why they never included the Territory and supply system from CoH. Of course it could have been altered, but I think a large opportunity was missed there.

But apart from that, I don't think much needs changed! DoW maps and scale (perhaps slightly smaller) with the abilities and tacticality of DoW2, with a dash of CoH tech and territory system, seems like a perfect combination to me! But I know people will disagree.

Does this seem like a good idea to anyone else?

[CommissarRezail]

I think all of us was hoping something similar to Coh, considering that bugo person showed that picture of a church i think? We was thinking the strategic points would have meaningful location. As the church would be a relic location or resource point. Not to mention the physics, however we got walls busting into dust. I just got over it and enjoyed the stuff dow 2 could do and brought to the table that i wanted. The more realistic space marines, things worked more like codex, not to mention sync kills. Then people kept talking about competitive gaming blah blah blah blah , and relic then took out t1 units sync kills (you montsers...) and yet still dow 2 didn't enter in any gaming leagues.... While I'm on the subject can i have my T1 sync kills back? Please?

Oh at any rate, it wasn't exactly how i liked it either, but i knew once it was like this they wasn't going to do a pimp my ride overhaul on it, at least not like that. Not to mention how eldar are now, is relic against dire avengers?

[Maktaka]

But apart from that, I don't think much needs changed! DoW maps and scale (perhaps slightly smaller) with the abilities and tacticality of DoW2, with a dash of CoH tech and territory system, seems like a perfect combination to me! But I know people will disagree.

I'd take it the other direction personally. DoW2 scale to start, maybe about 125-150% of the maximum scale by the end of the game. When all you've got is a commander, two scouts, and one or two main combat units, the tactical scale is fantastic, but it doesn't seem like it quite scales beyond that level as far as it could. DoW1 didn't reward tactical control to the extent that DoW2 does, and I don't want to see that lost, but it would be nice to recapture the sense of building to grander warfare as the match continues. The Retribution campaign actually does this quite well thanks to the resource return when units die, meaning in a given level the fight is ALWAYS getting bigger. Getting a maximum population of 130 plus the four free heroes on the final mission makes for a particularly epic final fight.

Take a look at SC2 for example. The opening fights of the game are between two Stalkers, three Zealots, and a Guardian on one side, 8 Marines and 2 Marauders on the other, and every single one is micro'd like a champ, just like DoWII's opening fights. However, by the end game you have dozens of Stalkers and Zealots, multiple towering Colossi, and various supporting units facing off against a veritable sea of Marines and Marauders, with a flock of Medivacs overhead and a dozen Siege Tanks bombarding everything. DoWII's tier 1 population size usually closes at 40+/-5, which means you're already 1/3 or more to the largest battles the game can support.

I also don't want to start with DoW1 as the base as, for all its innovations that set it apart and the competition has failed to adopt (morale/suppression, squads, in-field upgrades, true melee combat), it's still a lot closer to the standard model of "replaceable dudes in two rows shooting each other" style of RTS than DoWII, and I'd rather the genre move away from that. Of course, with SC2 still stubbornly sticking to the model that's unlikely to change anytime soon, but I'd rather not see Relic fall back into that bland design as well. Melee units shouldn't just be combat units with a range of zero, they should be crashing into enemy lines, soaring across the sky with jetpacks, individually identifiable in some way (THIS squad of ASM should matter more than the one you can build back at base for reasons beyond resource cost), and possibly shouting cockney-accented obscenities.

[Malachi]

Does this seem like a good idea to anyone else?

Yes.

I have my mind made up about what scale, mechanics and base building I'd like to see in DOW3. Already posted that multiple times in various threads, so I won't repeat. The only thing that I don't know yet is how best to resolve squad reinforcing. A lot of people hated the retreat mechanic from DOW2 and I agree it was immersion breaking and introduced a lot of problems. Thing is, I hated DOW1 field reinforcements even more, as it made squad members just magically appear in the middle of battle. I'd probably have unique field reinforcement systems for each race to make for more diversity. Retreat button would be there, but just as a convenience - no stat changes for retreating unit.

[Demiurg]

DoW maps and scale (perhaps slightly smaller) with the abilities and tacticality of DoW2, with a dash of CoH tech and territory system, seems like a perfect combination to me! But I know people will disagree.

Does this seem like a good idea to anyone else?

Yes, definately for me.

[Solliber]

For DOW3 I would drop DOW1-style field reinforcement and the DOW2 retreat button and go for something else. In my opinion squads should be reinforced either at the base or some forward base structure but retreating to them should be manual. That would also mean going back from DOW2 suppression and returning to the morale system which of course wouldn't have to work exactly the way it did before.
Those changes would mean that units would have a harder time getting out of combat - something I would like to see.

[Zany Reaper]

if they are thinking to do a DoW3 with major scaler than DoW1 with elements of DoW2 i think that some units needs to reappear and new others are welcome

New units IMO are welcome, but only when they don't introduce redundancy into the game. I can remember the days of Winter Assault where often to win games, most people would fill their caps with their elite vehicles/infantry & wouldn't think twice about using weaker units (there was never really a reason to). I'm glad that's mostly not the case in Dark Crusade & Soulstorm, though there're still some examples (Khorne Bezerkers make Chaos Raptors mostly redundant, for example).

I think relic's done a better job of avoiding redundant units in DOW2 overall (using the multiplayer stats, the campaign's a different story), though I've only played using Orks, marines & Eldar so far so I don't know about the other 3 races in retribution. I can't think of any immediate example where one unit trumps another for a particular race. Having said that, I still think that there's a place for Fire Dragons

[Warboss_Al]

I always thought that making reinforcing on the field more expensive/ take longer might be an interesting thing to try out. You have the option of staying in combat but running your economy dry, or retreating back to various reinforcement points and building back up quicker and cheaper. Possibly having transports as a point where reinforcements are cheaper and faster also. Not that every race has to work this way. I think space marines following the DoW 2 model with an automatic retreat button might make for more interesting racial diversity. And by automatic retreat I mean they run all the way back to base themselves.

[CommissarRezail]

I actually like the retreat now, its like you calling the little guys on the radio to hall ass, just don't like the fact once in retreat you can't call them off retreat or move them to avoid nades.

[Pseudonymn]

Thing is, I hated DOW1 field reinforcements even more, as it made squad members just magically appear in the middle of battle. I'd probably have unique field reinforcement systems for each race to make for more diversity.

Possibly having transports as a point where reinforcements are cheaper and faster also. Not that every race has to work this way.

See, this was one thing (among many, I might add) that I did thoroughly enjoy about CoH and DoW2. The reinforcement mechanic "just made sense" in so many ways. It just made sense that transports and drop pods could be used as reinforcement points and it enriched the game over DoW1's more primitive implementation - although I'm not one of those who hated it, either.

For DoW3, I might take that one step further: Transports that are purchased as field units from the base act solely in a support role only and do not reinforce troops blindly. For one's reinforcement needs, how about having a global ability that can be purchased with power and requisition (rather than zeal or whatever), which after a short delay summons a secondary NPC transport vehicle that the AI drives up from off screen or from out under the FoW to wherever you target the purchase and stays for a short duration while troops around it are reinforced from its "cargo" one at a time per squad for additional costs per model reinforced, just as DoW2 transports do now, until it finally either drives off again or is destroyed in combat.

The advantages I see with that are 1.) It preserves the immersive aspect of having a transport vehicle serve as a troop reinforcement point rather than bringing in troops held in infinite reserve floating around in the warp, 2.) It improves on said immersion by limiting the "supply" of reinforcements that can be had from any one transport, implying supply lines a la CoH or at least abstracting the concept into the mechanic; currently, transports all carry with them a pocket dimension out from which troops materialize and enjoin combat - better than DoW1's model but not perfect, 3.) It provides a layer of strategic and tactical depth to the reinforcement mechanic by first giving it an up front cost (delivery of the transport with assorted fresh troops), making it a punishable action if you see your enemy's Rhino (or whatever) roll up with fresh troops and you manage to kill it before it has delivered enough of its payload to offset its costs; and secondly, it turns the choice of whether or not to make field reinforcements while in the midst of combat a decision to be made carefully rather than leaving it up to a no-brainer option to take with you at all times.

Also, no more retreat button. Manual retreats or bust. I don't like the idea of Space Marines making disorderly, panicked retreats, although I'm not saying it can't happen. Just that they don't carry Commissars for a reason. "No retreat, no surrender!"

I invite your thoughts and comments. Olive branch extended...

[CommissarRezail]

Well , my little thoughts on retreat is, with out it no guard squad would be able to walk back to base at normal speed and still live. Eldar orks space even nids yeah. Not one guardsman. There to much instant wipe stuff to keep them alive that long. Matter fact retreat could be the one of the guard faction abilities. Warp fire toxic cloud, and any of the likes.

[Logic_Bomb]

I wrote a long response on my thoughts on retreat and reinforcement but couldn't get it coherant because it's so tied up in assumptions about other design aspects but I'll try again. I would like to see something different than retreat in any future Dow3. It worked well enough in CoH and Dow2 but losing control of your units also led to cheap tactics that could easily spell their demise. You could try to avoid bad retreats and you could abuse right back on their retreats, but I'd like to see something different for a Dow3. I love suppression weapons though and that whole mechanic so I'm not sure how to keep one and not the other, except for the Dow1 morale method.

I like the idea of reinforcement in the field (drop pods, transports, capturable buildings, spore pods, relay beacons, webways, etc.) and even mini-base expansions or mobile bases. This depends on larger maps though. I'm pretty sure capturable buildings to reinforce from were originally part of the Dow2 design before release as it was one of the loading screen tips early on in the game until they removed that tip. Reinforcing in the field also depends on how the economic model works. If the economy is tied to holding ground still and there are a lot of reinforcement in the field options, then you can easily have a snowball effect of not being able to ever come back once you've been pushed off. Again, larger maps would mitigate this. Slow reinforce times would mitigate this. Transports that are easily destroyed and capturable buildings being expensive could also help balance reinforcing in the field. I think both games have plenty of good aspects to meld together. I'd like to see the work they'd done with
heros, abilities, squad synergies*, cover, positioning, etc. of Dow2 married with the larger maps and expanding base/in field structures and scope of Dow1. Starting slowly but ramping up and expanding more as the game went on.

*If there's one thing that Dow2 achieved better than any other RTS ever, it's the way that your units interacted and worked together.
The way that people learned to use certain units and abilities in tandem was a huge part of the fun and strategy. Playing most other RTS, using the units seem like going from 3D to 2D - but other games make up for this in other areas instead where the focus isn't as much on the squad or the unit.

[CommissarRezail]

Agreed, the faction to faction synergy is awesome in team games. Where you build spore mines and a weirdboy use warp throw and tosses all of the mines into the enemy face . or cultist explosion + horma gaunts = good times.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

DoW 1 - Big ass armies and bases
+
DoW 2 - Awesome small scale interaction
+
Just make it like the tabletop, meaning the total customization of your colours, banners, armour styles per soldier, wargear, etc.
+
Insane looking melee combat with everybody having sync kills and accurate limb severing, headshots too, people crawling as they're dieing, busting out melee weapons automatically and sometimes grenades too when confronted, executing the ones who surrendered, some guy pretending to be dead to stab a soldier walking over him and then gets shot by the other soldiers surrounding him, or, if no soldiers are present, gets up and sneaks away to cover. I wanna see reloading, smoking, drinking, talking, interacting with gestures to other ppl, sitting down, praying, checking coms.

- all this I want to see when I zoom all the way in on my army occupying the city. RTS with FPS shit.

[comradegrumpy]

Retreat ganking in DoW2 can get kinda cheesy, but I think one of the things the retreat button actually allowed was for melee units to be properly dangerous in the game. You're genuinely scared of sluggas/banshees/whatever getting into melee with your ranged units, because melee units do a metric crap-ton of damage. I'm of the opinion that without the retreat mechanic, melee units would have to be made less 'choppy' and more 'tanky'. Otherwise, a good melee flank might not spell loss of engagement, but also complete loss of game. I'm not necessarily opposed to this, just pointing it out. Cancellable retreat is a no-no, IMO, as it will just get used to render melee units completely ineffective. Melee to close to your ranged blob? Retreat, and cancel when you're back at safe dakka range. The DoW1 morale mechanic would be OK, perhaps, but it would definitely require 'less choppy' melee units than those which DoW2 has ended up with. In DoW1 (from what I can recall), you could kite melee even once it reached melee range. Try that in DoW2, with its better actualised melee combat, and you'll lose, hard.

I would love to see some combination of the two mechanics, but I'm not sure how it would work. Then again, I'm not a game designer, so there's likely to be a solution that I can't see!

[Pseudonymn]

Well, with the retreat mechanics as they are, melee units receive a damage buff against other retreating units, presumably because the targets they are chasing aren't actively trying to protect themselves. Correct? So how about this:

First of all, let's not forget that melee units didn't necessarily have to annihilate ranged units in DoW1 in order to perform their role for their cost. The kiting you speak of isn't really a failure if you consider that it was never about facerolling targets outright with melee troops in CQC combat. Ideas like these came from people who thought they should be able to create melee troop blobs and win with only that or that an unsupported melee unit should be able to beat a ranged unit on equal footing rather than what DoWxx (and in particular WH40K more generally) has always been about since, like, forever, which is combined arms and tactical warfare. The melee troops function was and is to tie up ranged units, either in toe-to-toe combat, in which case the ranged units will lose handily; to flush ranged troops out of cover, and/or reduce their combat effectiveness by forcing them to fire on the move (or not at all as with the Tau) in the kite game. If a melee unit has accomplished anyone of those things, it has performed its role by removing a potentially lethal threat from the game, if not by casualties then by interruption.

So in saying that, what if the retreat button was removed and replaced with DoW1's moral system, or something close to it? Melee units would engage with and either tie up units in CQC, force them from out of cover, or force them to fire on the move with penalties to their accuracy. Here's the catch though: Melee troops don't instagank troops whose moral is not broken. They'll win over the long term for cost against ranged specialist but they can at least defend themselves for a period of time, giving the player time to make decisions. Once their moral breaks for any reason, however, they are no longer considered to be in CQC, receive a speed buff, and are actively seeking an escape route (to be microed by the player). At that point, since they aren't actively trying to protect themselves like they were before their moral broke, the melee troops' combat buff kicks in and they start ganking their targets as they do now when the retreat button is pushed. Broken troops do not receive movement or armor modifiers from passing through cover and must be retreated a minimum distance from combat before their moral can regenerate, say twice the range of their LoS from any enemy targets, with a bonus to their moral regeneration rates for being in cover as in DoW1, and regroup only after their moral has reached a minimum value.

This would mitigate the effectiveness of the kite game while at the same time preserving the player's options for retreating troops out of combat without the need for mashing a retreat button at the slightest hint of trouble. It would also keep combat closer to the front lines, which is something I missed about DoW1 in that the ebb and flow of combat always felt more concentrated and conflicts always felt more decisive. Finally it would place greater emphasis on the need to set up fall-back points from which to regroup and stage reinforcements behind/outside of combat, rather than in the middle of combat as it was in DoW1.