How to make Star Wars (original trilogy) better?

[MooFreaky]

After watching (or rather, re- watching for like the dozenth time) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgICnbC2-_Y
it got me thinking, how could the original trilogy of Star Wars be improved. If I was going to re-write Star Wars what changes could be made that would make it better than it is now? I love Star Wars, but let's be honest... George Lucas has a great imagination but he is terrible at the actual execution of things. He needs someone else to have control while he is the creative guy (much more like Empire Strikes Back).

I have many ideas, which I want to gradually throw out in this thread (along with suggestions from others here) and tool up some cool ideas. Things could be vastly variant from the originals, or they could be slight adjustments, either about key aspects of the movies, or just touch ups about the background and such. Most of my ideas are general overviews rather than specific changes, though I would like to work my way to more specifics, as I find them hugely intriguing.

For example...

Darth Vader needs to be more present in Episode IV
In the original Vader was never intended to be THE big bad, he was basically a throw away character (originally the character Darth Vader was a scrawny human General, whose actual name was Darth Vader... not a naming convention of the Sith - which was retconned in later). This is evident across Episode IV, as Vader is only a background character (appearing for some 10 minutes of screen time) and is on the leash of Grand Moff Tarkin. There needs to be emphasis that Vader is working under Tarkin as he gains experience and to oversee the Death Star project, rather than simply being Tarkin's bitch. Why are the Generals and such not afraid of Vader when in Episode III we see how bad ass he actually is? There is so much that can be played with there, but it's important IMO not to overstep and make him too big (remember, this is Luke's story not Vader's).


Death Star Assault I
Where are all the Tie Fighters? A Death Star has a dozen fighters? Okay that makes no sense. Regardless of the threat the Imperials think the attack poses, they would launch anything and everything. The Empire needs to be shown as the intelligent and dangerous threat they are, not fools who let a small band of fighters do their thing without any kind of response. Obviously the small rebel group would be overwhelmed by too many fighters so give some reason for them not launching? I am uncertain what. Perhaps some infiltration work by Kyle Katarn and some commandos? Even give Katarn a small recurring role, mention him as being involved in retrieving the Death Star plans and then being assigned to disabling launch bays? Just don't make it a silly cameo, or fan service. His character would work well, but care needs to be taken not to overdo it for the sake of it (ala little Boba Fett in EpII, needless C3P0 appearances in EpI, etc)
Hell, even have the Death Star succeed in wiping out Yavin... the key rebels already having evacuated. Rather than the Second Death Star appearing in EpVI, the same Death Star just upgraded and finally being brought down (perhaps after taking out another planet or two?)


Have some women somewhere
Star Wars females are Princesses or Space Hookers. Or leader of the Alliance... but really other than Leia and Mon Mothma how many females are in the original Trilogy? Besides strippers (most of whom reside in Jabba's palace), there don't seem to be many roles females can take. Change that, I want to see female pilots, soldiers, whatever. It also helps to show the difference between the strict human male policy of the Empire and the female and alien equality program of the Rebellion.


Stormtroopers need to be scary
These guys are the most present enemy that the heroes have, yet after their initial scene of awesomeness they become fodder. We hear about their precise accuracy then see them miss anything and everything they shoot at. Bah.
Scenes that demonstrate how effective they are are necessary to really give them a threat and to help show how scary the Empire is. This is their most prominent tool of terror and force, so let's see them in this light.


Do Endor properly
Yes I am jumping around, but this needs to be said. Most people know that Endor was supposed to be the Wookies not Ewoks, so scrap the money making teddy bears and replace them with Wookies. Make the fight much closer and show that the Rebels really need to sacrifice to get the job done, not just smash aside an entire legion of the Empire's finest with a handful of troops. Shit gets messy (really, bow and arrows endangering guys in power armour? riiiiight) and the scary, crack team of Stormtroopers break ranks and flee to the forest? Laughable.
I also like the idea of Crix Madine leading the ground force himself (with Han in charge of the demolitions, with Crix leading the defend the demolitions team team). He is the head honcho, the big hoo ha, when it comes to Commando work and such, thus he needs to lead it. Plus taking revenge on the Empire is something he would love to do. It helps show how the Rebellion really relies on the Imperial defectors and their expertise, helping demonstrate their plight.
While on that, really emphasise that the Rebellion is throwing EVERYTHING at this battle. This is a desperate, last ditch attempt, where it is make or break. No Akbar calling retreat. He needs to be the one demanding getting into those Star Destroyers and insisting that everything is given to the cause.


Falcon crashes, Lando dies
Rather than losing the radar dish on the Falcon during the second Death Star run, the ship should actual crash completely, killing Lando and Nien Nunb. It was originally planned and it should have happened. Things don't always need to be happy across the board. Sacrificing a semi-main character is a great way to achieve a sense of loss and sacrifice.


Imperial Star Destroy upgrade
This is more a personal annoyance with the background of Star Wars. Imp Stars are such huge vessels, yet they have relatively few weapons and fighters. It's rather pathetic really. Compare them to the vessels in Warhammer 40k for example and you begin seeing how hilariously underpowered the Imperial vessels are for an Empire that prides itself on military efficiency and ferocity.
Imp Stars need to be armed to the teeth. Lots of guns, lots of fighters. The broadside of a Star Destroyer should be nothing but guns. We are talking many times more than they currently have. I like the idea of the Victory Class Star Destryer (a smaller, precursor to the Star Destroyers from the movies) taking the place of most of the Star Destroyers we see. They can be the same inefficient ships as already exist, designed to inspire fear and suppress planetary uprisings rather than being maximum efficiency from a military perspective. It shows the Empire wants to scare people and keep them in line, but still have the flying beasts that will do the real fighting in their now massive outfitted Imperial Class Star Destroyers.




I have more but it's a long enough read as is. Feedback and general discussion of ideas would be delightful.
I don't pretend my ideas are pure awesome or don't have flaws, merely enjoy the prospect of re-creating Star Wars and making it as awesome as much of the expanded universe has become (where George's ideas are used, but he has less control and doesn't do the writing himself...)

[Busby]

Talk about timing. I'm currently on a Starwars binge after finding a copy of Wraith Squadron while clearing out my grandparents house. I've been playing the Starwars mod for SoaSE and have been pleasantly surprised by just how much justice it actually does for the big warships, particularly the various Star Destroyers. It is truly a shame that the movies missed out on that, though justifiable in most cases expect at the Battle of Endor, where they kind of do nothing or explode.

Adywan's fan remake does do some more justice to the space battles in A New Hope, particularly Yavin, and while there are obvious cuts is much closer to what the battle should of been IMHO.

[Starblade]

I don't pretend my ideas are pure awesome or don't have flaws, merely enjoy the prospect of re-creating Star Wars and making it as awesome as much of the expanded universe has become (where George's ideas are used, but he has less control and doesn't do the writing himself...)

A lot of your ideas seem to revolve around turning Star Wars into something other than a homage to pulpy science-fiction of the past. It's not supposed to be Battlestar Galactica, it's supposed to be Flash Gordon. Also I think an improvement would have been to have Lucas not write that Luke and Leia were brother and sister after havng them make out.

Having more positive female characters is never a bad thing, though. There isn't really anyone besides Leia in episodes 4 through 6 are there? Also, bigger is not always better. Look at Episodes 1 through 3.

[Kalimac]

Also I think an improvement would have been to have Lucas not write that Luke and Leia were brother and sister after havng them make out.

Why?

[Siber]

Uhmm... leaving aside the other things that make me kneejerk about these suggestions, Vader may not have especially much screen time in ANH, though I'd be surprised if it's as little as ten minutes, but he's very very active throughout. I'd say he and tarkin are about on the same level when it comes to villain importance. He introduces us to the idea of the death star plans, he does most of the dirty work, he threatens a high ranking officer with little fear of retribution, he notices Obi-wan's presence and kills him, he takes initiative in the space battle. At every step he is doing things, being the primary visible menace, and apparently taking initiative. Making him any more present and active would be stepping on Tarkin's role and generally be unnessicary.

[MooFreaky]

A lot of your ideas seem to revolve around turning Star Wars into something other than a homage to pulpy science-fiction of the past. It's not supposed to be Battlestar Galactica, it's supposed to be Flash Gordon. Also I think an improvement would have been to have Lucas not write that Luke and Leia were brother and sister after havng them make out.

I know what it is supposed to be. While it is good fun, when you look at the originals which is the better movie? Most agree that Empire is, because it is darker and has a lot more depth. Most of the popular expanded universe is the same, where it is still often written in the Star Wars style (where it is less Battlestar) but still actually makes sense and is well written. You can absolutely add in most of my ideas without making it excessively dark. Lucas' version were successful (obviously) but most of the complaints were at his desire to put in things that make more money (Ewoks were the most present of these changes in the originals, as well as changing from Revenge of the Jedi to Return...). I mean the original script is just a transplant of a Japanese movie/book/whatever and put into space.

This just spiralled for Episodes I-III which were largely abominations. Or simply put together poorly. Put EpIII in the same hands as Empire and it would have been amazing (and remove Hayden... his acting made Mark Hamill look like an oscar winner)
Biut that's not the point, I simply want to make the originals have more depth. The pulpy Sci Fi stuff isn't my taste, and I tend to go along the lines of adding depth would have benefited the movies.
And that's coming from one of the biggest Star Wars fans (I love them for what they are, I simply like the idea of what a grittier version would look like).

[MooFreaky]

Uhmm... leaving aside the other things that make me kneejerk about these suggestions, Vader may not have especially much screen time in ANH, though I'd be surprised if it's as little as ten minutes, but he's very very active throughout. I'd say he and tarkin are about on the same level when it comes to villain importance. He introduces us to the idea of the death star plans, he does most of the dirty work, he threatens a high ranking officer with little fear of retribution, he notices Obi-wan's presence and kills him, he takes initiative in the space battle. At every step he is doing things, being the primary visible menace, and apparently taking initiative. Making him any more present and active would be stepping on Tarkin's role and generally be unnessicary.

Vader shouldn't have to threaten high ranking officials who bad mouth him. Everyone saw what Vader is and how scary he is, yet he is at a stage where he is mocked by the military because they think he is rather sad. In no other movie does Vader stand in the shadows or not oppress those around him. People are too afraid to make mistakes around him, let alone mock him. It doesn't fit in the wider context of the movies (as back then Vader wasn't supposed to be the big bad that he became, so it worked). You would be crazy to bad mouth the Empror's favourite son. Someone who has a reputation for killing everyone who stands against him, for being the Emperor's sword. He was written at a time when there was no Emperor.

He is allowed to kill Obi, because Obi chooses it. He may have won in the end, who knows. But he never held the upper hand in the bout, so it was more of a draw than anything else.

He does the dirty work, but seems more like a thug for Tarkin than the guy who is actually planning things. He runs ideas past Tarkin, rather than being to initiator himself. Even with Obi-Wan he went to Tarkin with it first, before taking action.


Im far from suggesting a complete re-write. Merely that remove some of the things that are throw backs to when Vader was written. When you look at EpIV compared to EpIII, V and VI he is very different and it doesn't fit well for his character. It works great as a stand alone. As I said, I don't want him being too much in the movie, just tweaking his role and making him more menacing (like he was in the first few minutes!).

[Starblade]

Why?

In western culture incest is considered pretty creepy. It's a side effect of them not being written at once and Lucas forgetting that they did that, I think.

While it is good fun, when you look at the originals which is the better movie?

I think A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back are equally good, but for different reasons. ESB isn't as dark as you remember it being, but it certainly did do a lot of things better than the other two films. The fight scene between Luke and Vader is the best in the series, and the sets are amazing.

I don't give a shit about the EU at all, though instead of Jar Jar Binks a fight scene involving Liam Neeson versus a giant space otter would probably make Episode 1 worth watching.

The pulpy Sci Fi stuff isn't my taste, and I tend to go along the lines of adding depth would have benefited the movies.

That's what I'm saying; your suggestions to make Star Wars, a pulp sci-fi series, better is to make it not a pulp sci-fi series. Gritty and grimdark is not always better (or good). You say you don't want to make them excessively dark, but then have ideas for having the Falcon explode and everyone in it die, want the Stormtroopers to be frightening, and want more scenes showing why the Empire is scary (I'm not sure what they could do that blowing up a planet didn't, though). What do you call that? Episode 3 was hailed as "the darkest in the series". That doesn't make it a good film, or even less terrible than the others.

Your other ideas are mostly just "add more stuff in", which isn't bad in itself, but reminds me too much of the yearly special editions that are pumped out that keep adding more and more stuff in. You may want to take a look, I'm pretty sure they already did shove more TIE fighters in, for example. Though, from what I hear the color correction is pretty messed up. Ultimately it comes down to whether or not that actually matters; personally I think it doesn't. The size and scale of a Star Destroyer, for example, and the camera angles you see it at drive home the point that it's a thing you shouldn't mess with it. Having thousands of lasers firing in all directions doesn't accomplish anything that hasn't already been done.

I mean the original script is just a transplant of a Japanese movie/book/whatever and put into space.

Star Wars takes inspiration from a lot of different sources. There's buddism/zen, wandering knights (or samurai, or cowboys, if you prefer, any of them work since it's the same cliche), the Monomyth, Flash Gordon and other serials. Similarly, Indiana Jones took heavy inspiration from old adventure serials.

e: Also, the amazingly dumb thing about the prequel trilogy is that it's been what, twenty years since Episode 3 and Episode 4? And yet in 4 the Force is dismissed as a myth and sorcerer's tricks, but two decades earlier there were space wizards all over the damn place. The space wizards were the big shots of the galaxy. They were involved in the big war that set everything up! The problem isn't in 4-6 (not that they're shining beacons of perfection, don't get me wrong), but in 1-3.

[Codex]

Shit gets messy (really, bow and arrows endangering guys in power armour? riiiiight)

This is one of the things I actually found believable. To take a real life example, Kevlar doesn't give much protection against knife stabs, but it does admirably against bullets. The knife is a far more primitive weapon as well. So perhaps the power armour in star wars absorbs energy and gives a lot of protection against blasters, but not much against physical damage.

[Busby]

Considering it is supposed to be even more difficult for bullet based weapons to harm the wearer of Stormtrooper armour then blaster fire is (which won't stop the trooper from being incapacitated by blasters, but will save their life), the Ewoks should not of been able to hurt them with arrows. Blunt force via rocks, maybe. But arrows? No way.

[bman3k]

Also those were Ewok sized arrows coming from Ewok sized bows being shot by Ewoks, I know you don't have to have 2m long bow to do damage, but teddy bears shooting tiny bows was quite silly. I loved RotJ (space battle ), but I never really cared for Ewoks.

[ShyGuy]

There's a lot here, I'll have to come back to this thread, but I thought this was very interesting:

Vader shouldn't have to threaten high ranking officials who bad mouth him.

I went back to re-watch that scene again, and I think all it would really need is some tweaking. The moff (general? duder-guy?) doesn't directly insult Vader. He mocks the force, and seems genuinely surprised and disappointed that the Emperor's right-hand man is well-known to carry weight with the now-dead religion. It's pretty well done. After all, the Emperor has been making it a point for the last decades that the Jedi were just a bunch of over-hyped priests who, at one time, garnered far too many accolades for their worth, and ever since have been leeching off the good-graces of the now-defunct council of the Old Republic like a tick. It would be pretty disappointing to learn that a guy higher up on the food chain than you puts stock in the force, when for decades you've been taught that these guys are nothing special compared to the might of the peoples of the Empire itself, and you've been hunting down and killing all the other practitioners to prove it. Besides, he had a point. Vader's force-sense wasn't helping them track down the missing Death Star plans any more than Empire intelligence was.

On the topic in general...

If there's anything I really would like to see more of in the original series, given that we have the prequels now to compare to, is more of a sense of how much the galaxy has changed since the time of the Old Republic. The Emperor was a pretty popular dude, at least among the populous humans. His Empire was even more popular than he. The people of the galaxy were generally fed up with the way things were, and for the most part, welcomed many of the changes the Empire was bringing. Curbing the inefficiencies of the council with an Emperor who'll get things done? Yes please. Dissolving of the Jedi semi-secret society who come in the middle of the night to steal away your children to turn them into some kind of ninja sorcerer enforcer of the dreadful status quo? I'm on board.

[Aesaar]

His name is Admiral Motti, and he's the only high-ranking Imperial officer with an American accent.

I feel weird for knowing his name.

[Carl]

@Starblade: I more or les agree with you starblade. It was one part of the reason i walked away from the SW EU after invincible. When Luke Skywalker starts ordering an assassination, (no matter how you make it make sense), something very important to what SW is has been lost.

SW always had it's darker and edgier moments, but it mixed those with a general happy go lucky feel. It wasn't a totally farcical comedy style thing, but it didn't take itself super seriously either. It liked to ride the line between the two. It could be dark when a moment needed it, then lighten up with a major dose of hope or good cheer very quickly afterwards. Even it's action scenes played out like that, they could be tense affairs, or simple blast away with the pretty effects showpieces. They could switch around easily too.

That’s not to say SW cannot work if it's pure pitch black. I personally see shatterpoint and Yoda: Dark Rendezvous (both EU works), as examples of this. The background elements are as pitch black as you can imagine. Yet through the books detailed explorations of the light and dark side and the fine lines between and the characters viewpoints it keeps some essential SW elements with it, the dark elements aren't the whole story, they simply serve to highlight the SW elements more.


Now I’m not saying there isn't room for improvement on the original trilogy. But wholesale changes are a bad thing IMHO. Would I love for example to see the ISD upgraded to their full complement of 64 Heavy Turbolasers and 20 Ion Cannons, (plus and unspecified number of lighter weapons). Sure it would be cool to see a totally re-worked battle of Endor with everyone actually going nuts on each other ship to ship instead of a shot here or there. To me improving it would involve more going back an expanding on some thing that where perhaps left a littlie under done in the originals. But a wholesale re-write? nah.

p.s. I actually liked the ewokz. Yes it looked silly but there was a certain cool factor about watching the littlie guys take the big guys down.

[Codex]

Also those were Ewok sized arrows coming from Ewok sized bows being shot by Ewoks

Ah true. You guys are right.

Considering it is supposed to be even more difficult for bullet based weapons to harm the wearer of Stormtrooper armour then blaster fire is (which won't stop the trooper from being incapacitated by blasters, but will save their life), the Ewoks should not of been able to hurt them with arrows. Blunt force via rocks, maybe. But arrows? No way.

I actually went to read this up:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_armor

[Elerium]

Heh, Star Wars EU tried the grimdark route:

The Yuuzhan Vong ("Children of Yun-Yuuzhan", also called the Chosen Race, and sometimes incorrectly abbreviated to Vong, which implied that one was disowned by one's family and one's gods) were a sentient species which nearly destroyed the New Republic, and were responsible for the deaths of nearly 365 trillion sentients during their invasion of the galaxy.

Spoiler

Plus they were the only bad guys to have killed off Chewbacca according to the EU

..yet Star Wars isn't a grimdark thing or something meant to be taken seriously at all- it's just really a rollercoaster ride along the lines of Flash Gordon to be taken in as a kid and to be awed by its special effects. It's quintessentially "the hero's journey" from start to finish, yeah you had Vader's subplot but his backstory would only come around during the 90's to which Lucas started branding Star Wars as "Vader's tragedy" (plus did we really need to know?).

Ewoks by their conception I'd say were stupid though, given that they were used as a means to rope small kids into liking Star Wars and spawned a children's series that was as equally reviled and hated (as well as casually inserting the superiority of nature over technology). Also Emperor's most elite guard being slaughtered by teddies but then again, Star Wars relies on us to switch off our brains and enjoy the ride.. no matter how many times my brain keeps screaming 'what' at the entire scenes of primitive superiority and plotanium armour..

[TDATL]

In my opinion the prequel episodes needed some serious work where vader/skywalker was involved.

More precisely I think another episode was needed for his development. His development was too fast to be believable. Not fast as in how powerful he got, but fast as in how fast his character changed.

There was simply no development of him as a character. We should have had episode I of him rising in power. Episode II of him at the peek of his light side power. In episode II he should have started showing little character flaws that people in positions of power would comment on, if it weren't for his vast works of good and such. Episode III you show his fall to the dark side.

Beyond character development, an extra episode before he starts going down hill also makes it more believable that the Jedi Council doesn't react more harshly to his insubordination throughout ep II.

Another issue I have with the series is the changing of Vaders ghost in ep V. What the hell? Why switch to the Vader that fell to the dark side instead of the Vader that sacrificed himself to save his son?

[Carl]

@TDATL: I read the AToTC novel before seeing the film. His development there within the book was good. Even the Padmae Anakin Interactions where good. IMHO 80% of the prequel’s issues lay with the fact that Hayden wasn't the right person for the job. I'm not sure if he just wasn't suited for the role or just plain can't act. But eithier way he never really gave us the feeling of a real character underneath.

That said I’m not arguing another movie between 2 and 3 wouldn't have helped, but just getting someone who can sell the dialogue would have gone a LONG way IMHO.

EDIT:

@Elerium:

Spoiler

Don't forget they took out Anakin Solo too, and that should have ben Luke if George Lucas hadn't interffered.

[LoCo]

I'm strictly and violently against anyone's position when it involves mentioning that Star Wars should be more like Warhammer 40k.

Also, the Ewoks and their arrows didn't hurt the Stormtroopers. Take another look at the movie. The arrows bounced off the armour. I'm not saying they were good, just that if people are going to complain, they should at least know what they are talking about.

[PetarB]

Leave Star Wars alone. Thank you.

[PetarB]

Leave Star Wars alone. Thank you.

[another penguin]

I'm gonna come back and say some more later when I have time, but I'll say this now. The Royal Guard should have had more of a role in the films. They seemed to exist purely so the Emperor could order someone to leave the room. Seing as they are successors to the old Red Guard who were composed of the best Senate Guard and Commandos, I think they could put up a good fight against Luke or whoever.

[JAL-18]

I don't get why people make such a big deal about Leia and Luke kissing. (Yes I know about the Western taboo against incest...) She was doing it to spite Han, it lasted about three seconds, they didn't know at the time...can we move on? I mean, the stuff Jabba did with her is probably far grosser.

[Carl]

I don't get why people make such a big deal about Leia and Luke kissing. (Yes I know about the Western taboo against incest...) She was doing it to spite Han, it lasted about three seconds, they didn't know at the time...can we move on? I mean, the stuff Jabba did with her is probably far grosser.

I've head that there was a comic or radio peice or somthing similar produced between 2 of the movies that had them actually go the whole way. But never in the movies. And if the hints dropped in the EU are anything to go by, yeah as far as jabba is concerned.

[QuixotesGhost]

Thing that bugs me the most about the whole trilogy is "Death Star MkII" in Return of the Jedi. They should've figured out something else for the 3rd movie to be about instead of a bigger and better Death Star.

Falcon crashes, Lando dies
Rather than losing the radar dish on the Falcon during the second Death Star run, the ship should actual crash completely, killing Lando and Nien Nunb. It was originally planned and it should have happened. Things don't always need to be happy across the board. Sacrificing a semi-main character is a great way to achieve a sense of loss and sacrifice.

Actually from what I hear - there were early plans to kill off Han Solo in the third movie. I don't know if I would've wanted to see that in Return of the Jedi, but some hypothetical third movie that wasn't Return of the Jedi. Hmmm, I mean think about it - what if when the Emperor is telling Luke to feed on his hate, he's not just responding to their boasts - but to Han's death? Aside from concerns about what Star Wars isn't or is supposed to be - I think that would've been a really interesting moment. I think one of the big flaws in the original trilogy is that the appeal of the dark side is never really sold. Sure, Yoda says it's tempting but we don't truly see it. Kill off Han, you sell revenge, you sell hate, you sell the Dark Side.

[MooFreaky]

People are missing the point completely, especially StarBlade. The idea is to imagine what it would be like if it was different. Your idea that a 'what if' would change things so don't do that is silly. The whole point is to see how things would be if it were different. To see what individuals would like to have seen be different, the little things that people wished for. It's the type of things that fans of any series talk about all the time, yet the topic seems to annoying to you. Simply put, don't participate if you don't like it. I could say "let's make Star Wars the darkest series ever" (which, I'm not) and I would be entitled to that discussion (you know, for the fun of it) without someone saying "well you can't do that because that's not what it's supposed to be about".

While on StarBlade's post. I realise that it takes a lot of inspiration from places; however, if you read the original Star Wars screen plays they are taken pretty much word for word from a Japanese film whose name I forget (the far castle or something). The whole scene on Tatooine and general plot of the movie follows this very closely (and I mean the entire plot, if you shifted it to space). Is that a bad thing? No. I love Star Wars, but the whole point is what changes could be made for the sake of discussing.

Perhaps saying dark isn't quite what I was aiming for, and definitely nothing like the grim dark of 40k (I was simply comparing two different war vessels to make a point). Empire Strikes Back was a far grittier movie in that it made the Rebels actually look like they were struggling and that they were desperate. Even the little additions like the Rebels cheering when their first transport managed to escape ("The first transport is away!" followed by cheering over what is really a rather minor point in the scheme of things). They are up against it and it actually shows. You never get a feel for that desperation in the first movie.
Luke seemed up against it when he fought Vader and rescued the others. It didn't seem like the work of an expert, it was a seat of the pants rescue that was only barely successful. It just overall gave a better feel for both what Vader is capable of as well as the Empire.

If you have ever read the X-Wing series (Rogue and Wraith Squadron) that is more the feel I am going for. Where it is still light hearted and humorous, but there is far more character depth, the situations actually feel up against it and the enemy doesn't seem like incompetent rags lead by one or two dangerous people. People die, but it never feels grim dark. You can absolutely have things being hard and even characters dying without it becoming overly grim dark.


As I said before I'm not looking at wholesale changes necessarily, though some could be fun (without changing the whole storyline - for example most of the movies could play out the same if the first Death Star survived. But with minor tweaks as they went. But even that was just a general idea of hmmm I wonder how that would have worked). Much of it is just tweaking events to make more sense, or add more depth to the story. Imagining Star Wars as the space opera it is supposed to be, where the story goes beyond some of the writing limitations of Lucas. He has an amazing ability to envision things, but his touch with some character relationships and general dialogue is rather poor (I love you like a flowing river of loving, love).


Re: Expanded Universe Spoilers above

Spoiler

Plus they were the only bad guys to have killed off Chewbacca according to the EU

That's also according to Lucas, who was the one who gave permission for the writers of that series to do so. It is considered canon. Writers can't just do anything and everything they please, they have to stick within the existing bounds and get permission for certain things. Lucas' company keeps a big list of everything that is happening and it's level of authenticity and how it all inter-relates.
They have killed off many characters (where they are at now, most of the main cast has died long ago.

I'm strictly and violently against anyone's position when it involves mentioning that Star Wars should be more like Warhammer 40k.

Also, the Ewoks and their arrows didn't hurt the Stormtroopers. Take another look at the movie. The arrows bounced off the armour. I'm not saying they were good, just that if people are going to complain, they should at least know what they are talking about.

This one I had to respond to directly.
I only mentioned that Warhammer in the comparison between a couple of warships to point out how ineffective Star Destroyers are. Compare it with the armaments of modern day naval vessels if you prefer (I was just going for something of similar scale). It was never a suggestion that it should be as dark as Warhammer.

I never suggested that Star Wars was terrible and complaining. Merely discussing how things could have been different, and why you might want to change something. It's called having fun.
And since you like to say "they should at least know what they are talking about". How about I never said the Ewoks arrows were killing troopers. I was simply talking about how Stormtroopers were being threatened in general by a rag tag army, with no time to prepare, who had no weapons of any significance. In fact what you said helps achieve my point. I was saying that a strictly disciplined, highly drilled legion of the emperor's finest (these aren't just your average stormies but some of the Emperor's finest), who shat themselves, broke ranks and fled into the forest with no organisation just doesn't make sense.

But if you don't like what I'm proposing with this thread, then simply do not participate. Don't shit on other people for it.

I kind of remember why the RelicNews forums are dying/pretty much dead now. I have been away for a bit, had an idea that I wanted to post and just have some fun with. But the people who just want to bitch about it, mow it down and generally avoid discussing the point and having fun with it love to come in. I actually took the time to make a point, say what I was doing and why, just trying to have a bit of fun and get people discussing things (like happened here in the good old days).


@QuixitesGhost. Yes and no. Han was put in a position to die in Empire, because Harrison Ford hadn't signed on for the next one (because he thought Lucas didn't have enough depth and such. In fact, many of the things we love about Han Solo actually were put in by Ford himself. Solo was originally far more clean cut and boring). Thus they froze him in carbonate just in case, so they could just leave it at that if they had to. So one of the best and most iconic scenes of the Trilogy was purely introduced late on to cover for Harrison Ford not being sure if he wanted to be a part of it in EpVI.


And that last bit is exactly what I am aiming for. What would it have been like if this happened? Now you are thinking how it could have been interesting if Han had died, how would it have played out! THat is EXACTLY MY POINT of this thread. It's an interesting dissuasion and though process. If people would lighten up it could actually work.

[MooFreaky]

People are missing the point completely. The idea is to imagine what it would be like if it was different. Your idea that a 'what if' would change things so don't do that is silly. The whole point is to see how things would be if it were different. To see what individuals would like to have seen be different, the little things that people wished for. It's the type of things that fans of any series talk about all the time, yet the topic seems to annoying to you. Simply put, don't participate if you don't like it. I could say "let's make Star Wars the darkest series ever" (which, I'm not) and I would be entitled to that discussion (you know, for the fun of it) without someone saying "well you can't do that because that's not what it's supposed to be about".

@StarBlade. I realise that it takes a lot of inspiration from places; however, if you read the original Star Wars screen plays they are taken pretty much word for word from a Japanese film whose name I forget (the far castle or something). The whole scene on Tatooine and general plot of the movie follows this very closely (and I mean the entire plot, if you shifted it to space). Is that a bad thing? No. I love Star Wars, but the whole point is what changes could be made for the sake of discussing.

Perhaps saying dark isn't quite what I was aiming for, and definitely nothing like the grim dark of 40k (I was simply comparing two different war vessels to make a point). Empire Strikes Back was a far grittier movie in that it made the Rebels actually look like they were struggling and that they were desperate. Even the little additions like the Rebels cheering when their first transport managed to escape ("The first transport is away!" followed by cheering over what is really a rather minor point in the scheme of things). They are up against it and it actually shows. You never get a feel for that desperation in the first movie.
Luke seemed up against it when he fought Vader and rescued the others. It didn't seem like the work of an expert, it was a seat of the pants rescue that was only barely successful. It just overall gave a better feel for both what Vader is capable of as well as the Empire.

If you have ever read the X-Wing series (Rogue and Wraith Squadron) that is more the feel I am going for. Where it is still light hearted and humorous, but there is far more character depth, the situations actually feel up against it and the enemy doesn't seem like incompetent rags lead by one or two dangerous people. People die, but it never feels grim dark. You can absolutely have things being hard and even characters dying without it becoming overly grim dark.


As I said before I'm not looking at wholesale changes necessarily, though some could be fun (without changing the whole storyline - for example most of the movies could play out the same if the first Death Star survived. But with minor tweaks as they went. But even that was just a general idea of hmmm I wonder how that would have worked). Much of it is just tweaking events to make more sense, or add more depth to the story. Imagining Star Wars as the space opera it is supposed to be, where the story goes beyond some of the writing limitations of Lucas. He has an amazing ability to envision things, but his touch with some character relationships and general dialogue is rather poor (I love you like a flowing river of loving, love).

I'm strictly and violently against anyone's position when it involves mentioning that Star Wars should be more like Warhammer 40k.

Also, the Ewoks and their arrows didn't hurt the Stormtroopers. Take another look at the movie. The arrows bounced off the armour. I'm not saying they were good, just that if people are going to complain, they should at least know what they are talking about.

This one I had to respond to directly.
I only mentioned that Warhammer in the comparison between a couple of warships to point out how ineffective Star Destroyers are. Compare it with the armaments of modern day naval vessels if you prefer (I was just going for something of similar scale). It was never a suggestion that it should be as dark as Warhammer.

I never suggested that Star Wars was terrible and complaining. Merely discussing how things could have been different, and why you might want to change something. It's called having fun.
And since you like to say "they should at least know what they are talking about". How about I never said the Ewoks arrows were killing troopers. I was simply talking about how Stormtroopers were being threatened in general by a rag tag army, with no time to prepare, who had no weapons of any significance. In fact what you said helps achieve my point. I was saying that a strictly disciplined, highly drilled legion of the emperor's finest (these aren't just your average stormies but some of the Emperor's finest), who shat themselves, broke ranks and fled into the forest with no organisation just doesn't make sense.

But if you don't like what I'm proposing with this thread, then simply do not participate. Don't shit on other people for it.
I actually took the time to make a point, say what I was doing and why, just trying to have a bit of fun and get people discussing things (like happened here in the good old days).


@QuixitesGhost. Yes and no. Han was put in a position to die in Empire, because Harrison Ford hadn't signed on for the next one (because he thought Lucas didn't have enough depth and such. In fact, many of the things we love about Han Solo actually were put in by Ford himself. Solo was originally far more clean cut and boring). Thus they froze him in carbonate just in case, so they could just leave it at that if they had to. So one of the best and most iconic scenes of the Trilogy was purely introduced late on to cover for Harrison Ford not being sure if he wanted to be a part of it in EpVI.


And that last bit is exactly what I am aiming for. What would it have been like if this happened? Now you are thinking how it could have been interesting if Han had died, how would it have played out! THat is EXACTLY MY POINT of this thread. It's an interesting dissuasion and though process. If people would lighten up it could actually work.


Re: Expanded Universe Spoilers above

Spoiler

Plus they were the only bad guys to have killed off Chewbacca according to the EU

That's also according to Lucas, who was the one who gave permission for the writers of that series to do so. It is considered canon. Writers can't just do anything and everything they please, they have to stick within the existing bounds and get permission for certain things. Lucas' company keeps a big list of everything that is happening and it's level of authenticity and how it all inter-relates.
They have killed off many characters (where they are at now, most of the main cast has died long ago.

[Starblade]

People are missing the point completely, especially StarBlade. The idea is to imagine what it would be like if it was different.

I thought the point was to make Star Wars better or improved, like the thread title and opening post explicitly state. That's probably where most of the conflict is coming from, then. Star Wars isn't perfect, but saying it would have been better if it were grimmer or darker is a lot dumber a statement than "hey what if it was something like this instead".

While on StarBlade's post. I realise that it takes a lot of inspiration from places; however, if you read the original Star Wars screen plays they are taken pretty much word for word from a Japanese film whose name I forget (the far castle or something).

If it's the one I'm thinking of, the plot for that was taken from a western, and the plot of "spunky ragtag band fights back against evil force" certainly isn't unique to Japan and is very common in the pulp serials of the 40s and 50s Star Wars emulates. There's no such thing as "original", anyway.

But if you don't like what I'm proposing with this thread, then simply do not participate. Don't shit on other people for it.

No, this is a discussion forum. You have put forth your ideas for people to criticize and discuss, like we've been doing. It's not a circlejerk.

Solo was originally far more clean cut and boring).

Wasn't at least one character originally a giant fish man too? There were some odd things being thrown around in the original script and designs.

[MooFreaky]

Wasn't at least one character originally a giant fish man too? There were some odd things being thrown around in the original script and designs.

I'm talking he was clean cut right up until filming basically. It was Harrison Ford himself who changed aspects of the character because he thought they were too bland or boring or uninteresting. They basically changed stuff on set.

And the title works perfectly, because everyone has a different opinion on what would be better. As I said I asked people to say what they think would have improved the movies. Everyone will have conflicting opinions on this, but the idea is to put out what you would like to be different. You said yourself they aren't perfect, so how would you have improved them if you were in the driver's seat? Rather than just being negative, why don't you contribute. While the title alone may be confusing, RelicNews has a requirement that people read the posts properly before posting right?

No, this is a discussion forum. You have put forth your ideas for people to criticize and discuss, like we've been doing. It's not a circlejerk.

Yes to discuss. But another requirement is that people stay on topic. The topic is what changes you would make and why. Not to say Im not making any changes and complain about other people who propose to do so. You know perfectly well that I am making a constructive thread where people could actually enjoy the topic instead of just being negative about it.
It's easy enough to just avoid it if you don't want to be a part of it because you disagree.


You're point on Star Destroyers not needing a change kind of shows that you aren't on the same wavelength. I'm not saying in the movies they need to be firing everything and looking wow omg laz0rs! I mean that in the background they should just be established correctly, because it is just one of those things that doesn't make sense. A warship 3km in length that has minimal weaponry and minimal fighter space is strange. That would have zero impact on the story, I'm just talking about the behind the scenes there.

[MooFreaky]

Wasn't at least one character originally a giant fish man too? There were some odd things being thrown around in the original script and designs.

I'm talking he was clean cut right up until filming basically. It was Harrison Ford himself who changed aspects of the character because he thought they were too bland or boring or uninteresting. They basically changed stuff on set.

And the title works perfectly, because everyone has a different opinion on what would be better. As I said I asked people to say what they think would have improved the movies. Everyone will have conflicting opinions on this, but the idea is to put out what you would like to be different. You said yourself they aren't perfect, so how would you have improved them if you were in the driver's seat? Rather than just being negative, why don't you contribute. While the title alone may be confusing, RelicNews has a requirement that people read the posts properly before posting right?

No, this is a discussion forum. You have put forth your ideas for people to criticize and discuss, like we've been doing. It's not a circlejerk.

Yes to discuss. But another requirement is that people stay on topic. The topic is what changes you would make and why. Not to say Im not making any changes and complain about other people who propose to do so. You know perfectly well that I am making a constructive thread where people could actually enjoy the topic instead of just being negative about it.
It's easy enough to just avoid it if you don't want to be a part of it because you disagree.


You're point on Star Destroyers not needing a change kind of shows that you aren't on the same wavelength. I'm not saying in the movies they need to be firing everything and looking wow omg laz0rs! I mean that in the background they should just be established correctly, because it is just one of those things that doesn't make sense. A warship 3km in length that has minimal weaponry and minimal fighter space is strange. That would have zero impact on the story, I'm just talking about the behind the scenes there.

[Starblade]

Rather than just being negative, why don't you contribute. While the title alone may be confusing, RelicNews has a requirement that people read the posts properly before posting right?

The title and opening post are pretty clear about what the thread was about, and I even put forth one or two things as well but as it turns out other people aren't so negative towards incest or positive towards space otters as I am. People have criticized ideas, stated why they wouldn't change anything, and generally backed it up besides PetarB (though I generally idea with his sentiment; just leave the films as is, stop beating the dead horse). No one has been offtopic. Again, it is okay to be negative. The thread is fine.

I mean that in the background they should just be established correctly, because it is just one of those things that doesn't make sense.

What is it about the establishing shots, scale, and cinematography that you feel didn't quite cut it that showing additional laser turrets on the ship would have? The opening shot tells you everything that a hundred lasers on each side of the ship would have; The Empire and its ships are strong. The Rebels are weak and on the brink. I agree it would have zero impact on the story, but I don't see what it would do that hasn't already been done.

I'm talking he was clean cut right up until filming basically. It was Harrison Ford himself who changed aspects of the character because he thought they were too bland or boring or uninteresting. They basically changed stuff on set.

I know, a lot of the lines were changed by the actors while they were shooting. The most well known example of this is the scene where Han gets frozen in carbonite, where Leia says "I love you" and Han replies "I know". The original line was "I love you too" but Harrison that that was stupid as hell. He also encouraged Mark Hamil to improv like that as well. I think a good deal of why Episodes 1 through 3 sucked were because Lucas had total control. No one could do anything about any of the shit.

Out of curiosity which character was originally the fish man? Wasn't it Darth Vader?

[Faek]

...positive towards space otters as I am.

I would have loved to see more space otters in the Star Wars films. They couldn't possibly look more ridiculous than some of the stuff in the prequels (gungans i'm looking at you. Also that blue thing from Episode 1)

[LoCo]

MooFreaky: I didn't say you said anything about the Ewoks and their arrows. I was responding to things people had been saying... in the thread. Am I not allowed to do so? Does everything that is said in the thread have to relate directly back to you? It seems to me that you just want everyone to agree with you, praise your thread idea, and go away from the thread feeling enriched for having you in their lives. And damn anyone who doesn't.

The idea with the ships having more lazers is bad. It's taking an idea that is implicit and subtle and throwing it away in favour of something that's in your face, arrogant and used so often that the only way to get it noticed is to ADD MORE GUNS!!!

You are forgetting the most important part of the Empire when you want MORE LAZERS. Efficiency. Not to mention that you'll be pissing off a whole bunch of the fans who like technical specs where they understand that the lazer batteries require a lot of power to run, and in a battle you use a LOT of power already what with shields running at the same time... it just makes it silly to add more lazers. It's one of the reasons Warhammer 40k is silly. The cartooniness of the 40k universe allows people to ignore things like power generation/requirements. Grim dark? Hardly.

Starblade: I hadn't heard that about the fishman, but apparently Lucas really, really, wanted his fishmen and, well, you know, "It's a trap!"

QuixotesGhost: What sort of victory would you have the rebels have at the end of ROTJ? They needed some way to kill the Emperor, so they could close the trilogy off, they needed a final confrontation between Luke and Vader, they needed something that Han and Leia could do heroically.

Luke couldn't have taken on the Emperor. Neither could Han and Leia. That left Vader, but the Emperor had to be distracted or Vader would have failed. You also have to put it in space, because that's what it is all about. It would have been rather lame if the final was on some random planet.

[Jonny]

I mean that in the background they should just be established correctly, because it is just one of those things that doesn't make sense. A warship 3km in length that has minimal weaponry and minimal fighter space is strange. That would have zero impact on the story, I'm just talking about the behind the scenes there.

Are you talking about the special effects in the films or how many guns they're supposed to have behind the scenes? Because, thanks to the X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games, I'm pretty sure an ISD is only 1.6km long, has around 100 gun batteries of varying types, carries several mixed wings (60 fighters each) of Tie Fighters, Interceptors and Bombers then rounds it off with a battalion of stormtroopers, AT-AT's, AT-ST's, whole prefabricated ground fortresses and 36,000 crew.

That's pretty goddamn sizeable armament. Apart from 40k I'm not sure there are many other ships that pack so much shootiness into that size.

[Hirmetrium]

Star War's itself is something greater than the sum of its parts. It's easy to lose sight of it, but changing an individual element without fully understanding it could seriously cripple the entire franchise.

It's very hard to analyze what you'd improve or change. Grimdark is an interesting concept - it works very well on many levels, but so does cheesy pulpy action. You have to strike a good marker between the two.

And keep in mind, the public at LARGE are needed to buy into star wars. I have many friends (granted, not close) whom consider Episode 3 to be a masterpiece, because the plot is intriguing and gripping. Likewise, I have many people whom have seen RedLetterMedia's reviews, and found the truth in how terrible (and laughably bad) they are. Star War's appeal goes so far beyond. People don't CARE about details. It's why the Transformers movie's continue to be popular when they are grade A movie crap.

And Hayden Christian can't be blamed for looking at a green-screen all day. Even Ewan McGregor was made to be a bad actor by star wars.

What is the true aim of this thread? Are we talking background, lore, or actual movie-wise. Because all of these have different moving targets, which all have their own needs. The fact that Star War's, at the original time of its inception, worked so well is that it hit all these markers.

[Fixer]

That was a defining feature of the original series.

A lot of stuff was defined by the actors as George Lucas broke down while filming Star Wars. I think the quote that sums it up best was 'George, you can type this shit, but you sure as hell can't say it' by Harrison Ford.

Star Wars was an exceptionally happy accident. It's a mish-mash or borrowed ideas, stolen scenes and escapism mashed into something unique through circumstance, the talents of the actors who took part and the technical skills of the film makers.

Star Wars is basically the Hidden Fortress IN SPAAAAAAACE following the hero's journey with the battlescene from the Dambusters and the ending from a Nazi propaganda film.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19826...wn-movies.html

Yet somehow it works because George Lucas ended up with Hypertension and didn't get to influence the actual film making beyond casting, draft and concept.

This is why so many of the scenes in the prequel trilogy are so bland. Because they're all greenscreen since Lucas likes a nice relaxed environment where he's in complete control. Two camera feeds, flipping back and forth. For films with his terribly written dialogue with the primary focus being on merchandising.

Also when control is wrested from him like the Heir to the Empire trilogy or KOTOR. Star Wars becomes the cinematic storytelling awesome we love.

[QuixotesGhost]

MooFreaky, on thinking about it some more, I'm not a big fan of Lando dying, that to me seems gratuitous, because you can't really do anything interesting with it. You need to get to Luke. Star Wars is an about an epic struggle between good and evil, but it's not just a battle fought with lightsabers and starships, it's also a struggle within Luke. See that's one of the problems I had with the original trilogy, I never really felt that Luke's morality was being put to the test enough. If you're going to kill someone, you have to have it affect Luke - because that'll make it interesting. That's why Obi-Wan died in A New Hope - because it affected Luke.

In RotJ, Luke turns to the Dark Side briefly out of desperation. Because he thinks there's no other way he can win - I wanted him to be placed instead in a situation where the Dark Side appears to him and the audience to be the superior moral choice. Han's death is that situation. And that, IMO, really deepens that scene when Vader removes his mask. Can Luke forgive him? Should Luke forgive him? Is that what it means to be a Jedi?

Vader chops off Luke's hand, and runs around the galaxy being generally evil, but I always felt he needed to do something to much more personally and emotionally wound Luke.

[mlai]

Regarding lack of internal struggle in Luke:
Do you know about the Machete Order of Star Wars films viewing? The creator of the Machete Order had this to say regarding your very misgiving...

Best of all, this order actually makes a particular tension in Return of the Jedi stronger.

Remember, we see in Episode V that Luke’s vision in the cave on Degobah is that he turns into Darth Vader, then we find out Vader is his father. Then we watch Episodes II and III, in which his father turns to the dark side in order to protect his loved ones. After that we go back to VI, where eventually Luke confronts the Emperor.

Remember that we never saw Anakin as a little kid, he’s about the same age the first time we see him as Luke was in Episode VI. Hayden Christensen’s incessant whining in Episode II is actually less annoying now, because it’s helping to link the character to Luke, who was just as whiny in Episode IV. In other words, because we skipped Episode I, the parallels between Luke and Anakin are much stronger. We’ve seen Obi-Wan train just the two of them, and never had to see anyone training Obi-Wan himself. The viewer is naturally linking the paths of these two characters together at this point.

The first time we see Luke in Return of the Jedi, he’s wearing all-black, just like his father did. He gives R2D2 and C-3P0 to Jabba the Hutt, much to their surprise. Luke isn’t exactly looking like a clean-cut Jedi like he claims. Then, when he finally enters Jabba’s palace, the musical cue sounds a bit like the Imperial March, and the way he enters with the light behind him makes it unclear if he is Luke or Vader. Then, he force chokes Jabba’s guards, something only Vader has done in the series! Nobody else sees him do this.

When he confronts Jabba, he warns him that he’s taking his friends back. He says Jabba can either profit from this, “or be destroyed.” Furthermore, he tells Jabba “not to underestimate my power.” The last time this phrase was used, it was by Anakin when dueling Obi-Wan. When watching Jedi on its own, Luke just seems a tad arrogant during these scenes. When watching Jedi immediately after watching Revenge of the Sith, the message is clear: Luke Skywalker is on the path to the Dark Side.

Why does this matter? Because at the end of Jedi, Luke confronts the Emperor. The Emperor explains that the assault on the new Death Star is a trap and that his friends are going to die, and he keeps taunting Luke, telling him to grab his lightsaber and fight him. The film is trying to create a tension that Luke might embrace the Dark Side, but it was never really believable. However, within the context of him following in his father’s footsteps and his father using the power of the dark side to save people, with Luke’s friends being killed just outside the Death Star window, this is much more believable.

Shortly after, Luke goes apeshit and beats the hell out of Vader, clearly succumbing to his anger. He overpowers Vader with rage and cuts his arm off, just like Anakin did to Windu in Episode III. Having the very real threat of Luke following in his father’s path made clear by watching II and III before VI heightens the tension of this scene, and it actually makes Return of the Jedi better. Yes, watching Revenge of the Sith makes Return of the Jedi a better, more effective film. Considering it’s the weakest of the original trilogy films, this improvement is welcome.

[Zallis]

I think Moo's problem with the star destroyer isn't so much the lack of guns, but rather that it looks like they're using point defense weapons to engage other capital ships. It's like watching an aircraft carrier charge into the middle of an enemy fleet to shoot at people with its AA guns.

[Niftyeye]

To answer Zallis, I thought the rebels closed to point blank range in the hope that the Deathstar wouldn't fire into the melee and possibly hit its own star destroyers?

If the Rebels 'stood off' and engaged the Fleet at a distance they would of been wiped out in literally minutes.

[QuixotesGhost]

And also to elaborate a bit more, what motivates Luke to pursue Vader in The Empire Strikes Back, against the counsel of Obi-Wan and Yoda, is partially a desire to protect his friends, but also partially out of a desire for revenge. To avenge his father's death.