Beating IG in Soulstorm

[Deemer125]

Hello again,

I have been having trouble beating standard/hard IG computer, the one with the SS AI 3.2 Dawn of Skirmish. The races and the reasons for having difficulty, I will list one by one.

Tau - Tau fw have a really short range, so need a spotter, which I use Stealthsuits which is fine, and keep out the sight radius of the Guards. That is fine and I can keep out of the ranges of the buildings guns as well, and with the IG turrets, I have 1 squad of meatshield kroot to take the dmg. But once the Command Squad comes along, my SS usually insta die, the kroot tie up the command squad, but then the Guards come along with nades and blast the hell out of me, and with FW set up time, I usually can't hit back, because the AI IG usually has 4 Guard squads and 3 nades each squad, so my kroot tie up Command Squad/ get blasted to hell by nades, so the kroot die, and my fw usually die as well due to command squad chasing/meeleing (sorry for spelling) a fw squad. I usually have a couple snare traps, but it doesn't slow them down as much. I get to T2 in about 5 -6 min, so I can get a squad of pathfinder, but they're stupid even with me clicking GET BACK GET BACK and die. Then my skyrays come out, that usually kills the Guards but still take a fair bit of dmg due to nades, and or the CS meeleing it, and usually sents come out and fry the 2 skyrays in no time. Even with DF, CS can spot it and insta die as well. And to add to the problem, HWT come out, outranging and outsighting FW and kroot can't really be the meatshield because they usually die one by one just to attack, and even with a barrage directly on it only about 1/2 of its health is gone, and that is only 1 HWT out of like 3...
But I can win if I kill every infantry but crawling forward, selecting each individual squad and barely staying out of range.

Eldar - Basically same as Tau, due to me using DR, but even worse because DR has shorter range, and the FS as the meele distracter. I use Physic Storm and Mind War, but Physic Storm, from my PoV, doesn't really do a lot of dmg? If I use Shees, even worse, because Shees usually have to close in, and in that time, usually half the squad is gone. And the building guns? I have to wait till Wraiths/ Falcons come out (5 -6 min) and take the dmg, but still, they lose a fair bit of health and may die as well. I have used Wraithtomb and that is good for turrets, but once I used it on the HQ buildings, the production stopped but the guns kept firing? And I was lucky that the IG had no sents.

Chaos/SM - CSM and Tacts can take the dmg dealt by the buildings for some time, and that is good, but 3 Guards with nades... murder them so easily, even if I have 4 CSM and a Lord, the AI can micro away so they can fire again/ near a LP/Turret/ or hide in buildings. I have to wait till Vehicles come out, and again I harrassed IG so much they were still in T1, they killed 3 of my Defilers just from maxing out the slots the the HQ and or the Infantry Command.

SoB - Not really a problem because once my squads have flamers, can break morale so easy, but still, murder to get them in range of the flamers, and I can use the Canosness's Purifying Light to maybe stop the building's gun firing (not sure about that)

Necrons - Don't really play much Crons, but still, nades flatten the Necron Warriors and that is pretty dmging even for Crons; and if I drop FL near them, they run away so fast the the FL can't catch them. And IG are hard to beat for Crons if the Lord doesn't have Solar Pulse.

So... that is the end of my rant about how OP IG are T1, T2, and I don't even want to think about T3 and T4...
Btw this is IG Standard/Hard so they don't really have a resource headstart

[Maktaka]

As Tau, if Psykers are out you can keep your SS just behind the FW. If there's no detection, keep them just in front to maximize the firing range of your FW. Once you have PTs, the SS switch over to emergency AV. Tau are one of the hardest matchups for IG because the only answer to 3-4 FW squads is Chimera clown cars full of Plasma GM, and the AI just isn't capable of performing that maneuver.

Skip the Kroot. They don't do enough building damage to threaten IG in bunkers and they're too squishy to act as a good meatshield. Mass FW, get the TC for burst damage against the CS (and DO NOT let him get shot up by GM, you need his health high to survive Psyker's Strip Soul), get upgrades, win.

HWT should be downed by focused FW attacks. Their health is low and your range is long.

Make sure all of your ranged units are on stand ground stance (blue), not hold ground (yellow). That's true for most ranged units, but especially Tau.

[Danustar]

Skip the Kroot

This ^^
And the Farseer. And Banshees.

Tau should be easier to run against IG than Eldar but Rangers and Dark Reapers cheese should at least keep you in the game until you get Harlequins and Fire Dragons. Fragons won't get disrupted by IG nades and are a vital counter to Hellhounds and Sents.

I wouldn't worry too much about their unapproachable HQ until you've wiped their troops. If you're late game and still finding it a pain, send a few Bright Lanced Wraithlords in with a BL Platform. Same goes for their T4 armor.

With Crons, don't underestimate Wraiths. They ARE good for tying GM units, along with a teleporting Lord, while your guns march in. Solar Pulse just adds to the fun. Don't forget Wraiths can phase shift into temporary invulnerability which is very handy for getting into melee range without taking any damage.

If the forum's Battle Archives are still functional why not save a replay of a typical game and post it so we can see what you're up to?

[Deemer125]

Thanks for the advice

Makata - The CS usually always has the Pysker out, so SS nearly always get killed, and if Pysker isn't out, the AI IG radar follows my SS and also gets killed. I don't have time to move my SS out of the way because the Guards can then nade my SS, then no sight , and the HWT? They're usually set up when I come in contact with them so they're sight is 40, and range is 45 and FW die kinda quickly in that 1 second of set up and a couple seconds of firing, and the HWT are usually backed up by some Guards with nades so I have to endure disruption at well.

Danustar - Thanks, but I think I'll just bring out my Farseer later, like 5 min into the game, set it on ranged, and just type up and mind war one of the CS. I try to Mind War the Pskyer, and sometimes works. For the Rangers, same problem with SS: following radar and CS Pskyer but I can FoF away, so that is fine, but then my macro kind of falls behind due to the constant micro. I will try and post a game with me as Chaos, and will let you know when its up

On a side note, is there a hotkey for a universal FoF? Like select a group, press a key and the whole FoF comes on. I do select a group, use Tab F Tab F, but that is... just a bother.

[Deunan]

FoF is per unit not per group.

Also as others have said - IG have massive massive issues against massed FW, because those FW generally outrange them quite a lot.

If you have trouble with your squads getting tied up, then forego more units in squads for more squads. 3 squads of 3FW's cost just as much as 9 in two squads. And when one is tied up, two are not, As opposed to just one.

Generally speaking, you just have to be attentive and juggle your SSes in a way to minimise damage. Really not much else to it.

[Deemer125]

Wildcat, yes I build squads first, then reinforce when building PtE, and I have no problem about the CS tying up a squad, I can just micro away. But the problem is AI IG nade spamming when I'm in t1, and I can't really fire due to IG cheating scanner so my SS dies, and Guards themselves have longer sight range than fw and no set up time with nades, so I have to deal with constant knockdown which is really dmging and can't fire back due to the set-up time. Even 1 squad of Guards with 3 nades can keep like 3 unreinforced squads of fw on their backs the whole time when fw have no spotter.

[Maktaka]

Your SS won't die if they're not in front. And if they DO die, it's not really a problem. If the enemy has enough detection to make SS nonviable, then don't build them. They're expensive as hell because they get free infiltration, so if that's nullified then you're just wasting your money trying to keep them on the field. Get Broadsides in T2 for your AV, maybe Skyrays if you only need light AV.

And this:

Even 1 squad of Guards with 3 nades can keep like 3 unreinforced squads of fw on their backs the whole time when fw have no spotter.

is not even remotely true. One grenade might, on a very lucky shot, knock over two FW at once, not the entire squad. One squad of GM with a trio of GLs cannot, ever, EVER keep 9 FW knocked down. If you want honest help in this matchup, you're going to need to be honest about the game first.

[Deemer125]

I make 2 SS at the start for capping and scouting; when I send them in front to spot, the radar usually follows and my SS die, but I don't build any more SS after that until much later into the game.
I wrote that quote because at that time, it seemed to me there was only 1 squad of Guards and I was retreating rather fast so couldn't get a closer look. I didn't save the replay, so there could have been more squads.

[Danustar]

Wait. Are you using Vespid?
They're a phenomenal T1 unit for harrassing and tying with jumps and disruption, plus they build from your HQ so won't tie up FW production. You don't need SS spotters if you've got Vespid in melee with your targets. IIRC the Tau Commander also has a good sight range that will assist your FWs.

Also, don't bother with infiltration for Rangers. As you've noticed, the AI just slaps a scan straight on you. Their role is to open up extra sight for your Reapers.

Does this help? clicky
Even if it doesn't, it was fun

[Deemer125]

No I don't use Vespids, because I think too much micro so my macro near the start of the game falls behind. Probably need more practice though... and also I don't think they're good for their cost, but I might be underestimating them. Ah thanks for the TC info, never knew that so I can now put my TC a little bit infront of my fw so my fw can fire max range
I've tried a couple times to jump my tc in, just the flamer on them, but I'm not sure it will work if the Guards have nades.

I think the infiltration for Rangers is good because even if there is a scanner, I can FoF quickly away, then start shooting again, killing some Guards in the process

I wasn't sure what your link was meant to be - a replay or just some tips? Because I don't see a replay?

[Pseudonymn]

If you have trouble with your squads getting tied up, then forego more units in squads for more squads. 3 squads of 3FW's cost just as much as 9 in two squads. And when one is tied up, two are not, As opposed to just one.

This is probably the most important point that has been made in this thread so far, and it holds for just about any race's build order that I can think of. The pay off in greater mobility with more squads with fewer troops is higher than having one or two fully reinforced squads.

As to the issue of having entire squads being knocked off their feat by what you may perceive as just a few nade-toting Guardsmen, I have to wonder if you're not taking into account their Basilisk Artillery Tanks, which the AI loves and, frankly, is very efficient with. With a barrel-to-target range of 120, it has by far the longest reach of any weapon in the game, hits 100% of the time with very little deviation, and has a disruption radius (knockback / knockdown) of 5. Get three of those going, or even just two (and the AI loves to build these in twos at least), and you can very quickly find your troops dancing to the beat of the IG's drums at a tempo of not less than 9 seconds per beat, which for the Tau is especially bad. Combine that with IG nades and it may just be possible that you are indeed seeing entire FW squads prevented from ever firing a shot. The solution is, of course, to get your SS teams down there to take them out, which shouldn't be a problem as the AI most often leaves its Basiliks unsupported and their built in defenses are laughably pitiful (SS teams with Fusion Blasters eat these for breakfast).

This speaks to your strategy in general, I should imagine, in that eliminating artillery units should be high on your list of priorities because leaving them alone is just giving free, easy kills to your opponents. You can (very) briefly spot artillery units hidden behind the Fog of War immediately after they fire their weapon. You've got to be quick about it though as they disappear from view again in a matter of seconds, but if you suspect that you're being sniped by artillery, look for red points on your mini appearing and disappearing and move quickly to get AV weapons on top of those positions ASAP.

Without the benefit of a replay to watch, I'm willing to bet real money that this is most likely the source of your frustrations with impotent FW squads.


Moving on to other things:

As you've noticed, the AI just slaps a scan straight on you.

This is really a problem that has more to do with the way the Skirmish AI works than anything, and you might will also find that it's not limited to the IG scanner. It's a problem for ALL "global" abilities that the AI can use that aren't tied to a unit and its own sight/targeting radius or to targets that aren't invalidated by being under the Fog of War. It's especially obnoxious with the Dark Eldar, which I'll explain in a moment, but it's also a problem for certain Ork and SoB abilities.

From what I've been able to observe of what happens is, functionally, the AI has no fog of war limitations and can "see" the entire map, the state of all its assets, and the positions of all troops and infrastructure. A necessary evil, I suppose, given that an AI that is simultaneously sophisticated enough to "learn" a map while also being "cheap enough" in terms of computational cycles and compatibility with the demands of real time updates over the internet in MP games probably hasn't been invented yet. The end result, however, is that we have an AI that can see what you're doing and can drop all these rangeless abilities wherever it likes and is limited only by the cool down timer and/or available resources. This could have been mitigated by tying the use of those abilities to only targeting valid locations withing the sight radius of a given army's units/buildings in the same way that the SM can't dump drop pods wherever they want. It's a programming oversight that slipped through the cracks and, although I turned it in to Thudo's team for correction (years ago now), they never really got around to it and I just learned to play around it, accepting it as a feature of the game - add really, once you do that, it does make the AI more interesting, even if it is cheating just a little.

Getting back to specific armies and abilities where this is definitely a problem (or a feature), the Dark Eldar are easily the worst offenders with a bunch of globals that, really, should have been tied to the Archon and/or the Haemonculus. Specifically, the DE can drop a Soul Storm on top of your armies literally at will, provided they have the resources for it - which the DoS AI is very efficient at collecting. But not only that, the DE can also quietly sap the health out of your units, and it seems to prefer targeting your heroes, naturally, using their Soul Rend global; demoralize entire battlefields (read: EVERYONE) with their Screams of the Damned global; and drop an acid storm on top of armies that annihilates armor, making even the mightiest Terminators as vulnerable as a lowly Guardsman. The cheating bastards! But hey, that's kind of within the character and style of the Dark Eldar, right? I've grown to like it because it keeps me on my toes when playing against them.

But as I said, the DE are not the only ones that the AI can do this with. You've seen the IG drop scanners on infiltrated units that it "wants to keep an eye on." I bet you didn't know that it was also dropping Earth Shaker rounds on you for the same reason. Just thank god that the AI doesn't know how to use "Attack ground" commands with its artillery units also, lol.

The SoB have one or two that they can use also, but the one that is most damaging is the Hunter-Killer Missile ability on their Exorcist artillery tanks, which they use to target and destroy your buildings when you're not looking (as in every chance they get; as in as soon as the ability's cool down time has replenished the ability; as in CONSTANTLY). Be ready to either have a builder on standby to repair buildings or rebuild lost structures. Constantly. Having said that, however, I'm not sure if this applies to Eldar buildings that are cloaked by a Webway Gate or not. I just don't play them enough to keep track of whether or not they suffer from that. The DE can drop Soulstorms on cloaked armies though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the SoBs can target cloaked buildings also.

Finally, the filthy Orks. Fighta-Bommas come stocked with an ability to launch these missiles that are piloted by Grots that serve (hilariously) as the missile's on-board guidance system, ostensibly called the Grot Bomb. I haven't actually tested this one out in lab conditions because by the time I saw what was happening with it, I had already by that point accepted this "feature" of the DoS AI and didn't give it much thought when I saw Grot Bombs appearing out of nowhere with no explanation (although cloaked Gretchin could account for painting targets - I don't think the AI is that sneaky though). With an attack range of 70, however, the Grot Bomb is a good candidate for just this sort of thing.

The reason that I think this is a feature rather than a bug though is that sometimes it can actually work in your favor. I LoLed hard the first time my Space Marine army was getting shot to shit by the damned Tau in an 8-point FFA skirmish at Forgotten Jungle only to have my ass saved by a Dark Eldar Soulstorm dropped in their midst. I can remember thinking, "WTF? LOL, those DE must hate the Tau more than they hate me right now!" The DE had up to that point been targeting my Force Commander with Soul Rend, the annoying little pricks.

TL;DR - IG Scanners are probably a permanent fixture of the DoS AI, unless someone can convince Thudo and his team to look into it again and publish another update to address this "feature". The only option is to play the stock AI (borrrrrrrring) or get to the point where you can play around DoS's little quirks.

Supplemental reading:
You might be overestimating the IG's strengths. As an army, they easily have the squishiest units in the game. Their mechanized units can be terrifying when deployed properly, but try dropping an Air Cast Orbital Bombardment on top of a Guardsmen blob and you'll see exactly what I mean; it's actually easier than you may think to flatten a standing IG army in just seconds. Also, as far as the late game strategy goes, the IG have fairly poor response units when it comes to dealing with "daemonic" units (units with daemon armor ratings), which includes Krutoxen and the Greater Knarloc. The only units with "decent" damage ratings against daemons that can't be tied up in melee are the Leman Russ and the Baneblade. I suppose HWT units count in that also, but if they wind up caught in melee, they're pretty much finished anyway. If you know that you're going to go toe-to-toe with a late game IG opponent, the Kauyon path can offer effective IG stomping options.

[Deemer125]

I don't really notice the other abilities, but I find the IG scanner most annoying because then it renders infiltration mostly useless for the whole game if playing against them, but thanks for the info, very interesting to read

[Danustar]

Fixed that replay .. I think.

[Deemer125]

Yes you did thanks.

[Deemer125]

Just saw your replay. It was very interesting how you only used 2 squads of fw and not more, and very nice harassing with Vespids. Although, I didn't see the AI use much nades. The main problem that I have when I play IG in DoS is nade spam... and it's really annoying. But very nice gameplay and nice flanking.

[Danustar]

Thanks. Yeah, instead of building grenades the default AI seems to like turrents, which are nowhere near as much of an issue.
I did add a third FW unit but was careless and lost it so it doesn't feature prominently. EDIT: No I didn't lol. Mean't too .. must've dreamt it.

Anyway, hopefully that's given you some ideas re Vespids and TC assisting your FWs. I recommend watching it from the Tau POV with fog on so you can see the difference.

[Maktaka]

It's been almost three years since I last played, but I reinstalled SS and DoS 3.2 to run through some games against IG as Tau, Eldar, and SM. I can only half-remember the build orders so timings are really loose and the SM game I was quite lazy and ended up losing a Scout squad, piles of individual ASM, and got my FC rather bruised very early (tacspam with flamers would have been better, but meh). Still wins all the way through though. I can demo up any other matchups as well.

http://www.mediafire.com/?rodocsdfp1xd113

[Pseudonymn]

Well, since we're making replays, here's my shot at it, two files:

Kicked some ass with the SM and again with the Tau, although my Tau game was not as good as it could have been; I got lazy when the win was in the bag and left out some key researches/buildings but I still ended up beating the IG faster than I did with my SM army (by a few seconds, but still, it could easily have been faster).

In both games I demonstrate the BO that I use when playing FFA on larger maps, 6p+. It's possibly not optimized for smaller maps, or 1v1 for that matter, but they are good, steady builds that have enough flexibility to perform well against most MUs with only a few tweaks here or there depending on who/what I encounter in the first 10 minutes.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/sozpmv

[Deemer125]

Makata, Pseudonymn, I haven't watched them yet, just wondering, are you playing with the normal SS or the DOS SS?

[Deemer125]

Oh, and Danustar, I did watch with the fog of war on

[Maktaka]

I had DoS 3.2 installed when I played mine. Let me know if you have any questions about the build order or tactics used.

One thing you'll notice is a LOT of dancing away from melee units, and as Tau inching back to get just out of turret fire. Melee units like the Command Squad are balanced around the idea that you'll be making them work hard to get into melee. I'm also very aggressive, attacking as soon as I have two units to rub together. Any AI in any RTS ever will out-macro you due to the superior multitasking of a computer, so every moment you let it build up in comfort is you getting further behind. Hit 'em early and keeping pounding wherever they're weak as long as you have enough troops to do something.

Also, here's some games vs IG as SoB, Necrons, and SM with Sniper Rifle lulzing. You wouldn't normally want SRs against IG as they don't do enough damage against the Command Squad, Commisars, or buildings and broken morale doesn't reduce melee damage, but the AI doesn't understand what counters it needs to build against SRs and I can easily dance the scouts until my tac squad shows up to finish the attack. http://www.mediafire.com/?fl5xbloib8g8lan

[Pseudonymn]

I was also playing against the DoS 3.2 AI, the stock AI just isn't entertaining enough to bother with.

I find the IG scanner most annoying because then it renders infiltration mostly useless for the whole game if playing against them

I'd like to revisit this again, if I could:

Bear in mind that it is a single-use, targeted ability with a finite area of effect, approximately the diameter of the map decal indicating its use, and it takes a full minute between charges before it can be redeployed. Specifically, the scanner has a fixed detection radius of 15 units; SS teams have a jump radius of 70 and a weapon range of between 25-(28,[43]) with upgrades. If you know the IG are spamming detection on top of your SS teams, just keep an extra eye on them and jump them out of the targeted area and you can then let them be for up to 60 seconds, in which time there's a very good chance they'll have annihilated whatever it was you wanted them to destroy (provided a Psyker doesn't show up). Often, you don't even need to jump them out for that matter; you can walk them 7 or 8 units out of the detection radius and watch as the IG cry when that Leman Russ tank gets plasma thrown down it's tailpipe.

"Use the force, Shas'Vre! Use the force!"

[Deemer125]

I can't seem to download the games from the links you sent me. Do I need a mediafire and a sendspace account to get the files? Because when I press Download, the files are not downloading off my browser. Am I doing something wrong here? Or is it possible to put in Battle Archives and link it like Danustar did?
Thanks

[Maktaka]

Hmm, Mediafire may not be propagating the file out to all their servers fast enough. Here they are in the Battle Archives

[Deemer125]

Thanks for that

[Pseudonymn]

I stashed a zip in the thread started by Maktaka also.

[Deemer125]

Thanks. Not watched replays yet, but will do later today

[Deemer125]

I watched most of the tau replays, and I played a game of tau vs IG, it's not ok, but how do I post one in the battle archives? I was planning to put it on Makata's link

[Maktaka]

Make sure you're in the advanced posting mode, not the quick reply at the bottom of the thread. Then click the attachments button above the comment box and go from there.

[Deemer125]

Thanks. I think I uploaded it on your thread.

[Maktaka]

Some things I noticed as I watched:

1) Putting a second builder on a construction project only reduces the remaining build time by 33%, not the 50% you might assume from having twice the workers. It is rarely worthwhile. Have builders work on separate projects unless there's nothing better to do with the second one. This being the beginning of the game, a better thing to do would be to get that second SS out before the builder to start getting map control a bit faster or possibly using it to build a generator to get your power income started while the first works on the barracks and LPs.

2) You took quite a while to get that first FW squad out even though you had the resources, spending it instead on getting an LP2. LP2s can only defend, while FW can attack and defend. That first encounter with the IG would have gone much, much better for you if you had a FW to shoot the CS while your TC ran around it (or vice versa).

3) Don't throw snares into troops. They'll get spotted, shot, and you'll be down 35 power for nothing. With the Psyker in the CS, just don't bother as even defensive snares will get spotted and destroyed. Save the power for tier 2. You threw snare traps all throughout the game in every encounter, and it cost you hundreds of power that got you nothing. You could have been in tier 2 at least one or two minutes earlier if you had saved for it.

4) Also in that first encounter, your TC got really, really shot up. The TC only heals at 2 HP/s and can't attach to a squad to get some ablative armor, so that's just leaving him incredibly vulnerable for a very long time. This is when you need that FW squad to take some hits, because they can be reinforced for instant squad health restoration and will heal up faster than your TC (3 FW at 1 HP/s are healing 50% faster than a single TC).

5) You should definitely practice your dancing. Keep in mind that unless we're talking about a very big squad of melee units, only a single squad of yours can get tied up by the an enemy melee unit. Only one unit should be running from the CS at any given time as the CS can only hurt one unit at a time.

6) It's better to have FW spotting for FW than to have your TC spotting for FW when the TC is low on health. As mentioned above, he does not heal up well and he's expensive as hell. Better to lose a couple FW than risk losing your TC. Keep him mixed in with the FW, not out in front.

7) It's okay to attack-move with FW, just tap Q once they start shooting so they don't keep chasing when their current target moves out of range. This'll save you some micro and guarantees your FW get in range, something I saw you struggling with as you tried to individually position each squad.

8) When you reached the IG base at ~6:30-7, you had that in the bag but kept moving your FW in and out and in and out. FW have a 1 s setup time, they can't afford to move around like that. Bump them into range of the GM, sit still, and gun them down.

9) At that same time, you were trying to take down an IC. From the health bar you can tell it was being repaired by a techpriest, the best repairer in the game. Shift forward a bit, pop his ass, and that IC would have crumbled. DoS AI will try to make excellent use of repairers, so don't let them. Plus, that's 75 req you'll have just blasted, req that could have purchased three more GLs.

10) At 8:30 you're reinforcing and buying equipment for the SS to make them a better AV squad when you're already struggling against the infantry of the IG. That's a LOT of money that could have gone towards Pathfinders, the Pulse Rifle upgrade (Which you may have already had at that point? I can't see what upgrades you researched after they're complete in a replay), reinforcing your FW, or getting Shield Drones (which cut enemy ranged fire in half) or Shas'Ui on the FW.

11) You've gotta be more aggressive. At 9:45 or so I'm watching you with three full squads of FW and TC with missiles and flamer just....sit. You've scared the IG AI back into his base, you have the resource advantage with the SP behind you, whoop his butt now before he gets out a Hellhound or something you're not quite equipped for.

12) Speaking of the SP behind you, that should have been an LP a long, long time ago. Send an ECB (and just one remember, don't double up) with your army if you're going to cap things to build LPs that can become LP2 redoubts in case of trouble.

13) You sat there pounding on the HQ for a long, long time while it got repaired up by two TPs, and you could see it happen thanks to the Pathfinders on the field. That's just wasted firepower. Either kill the TPs by focusing them down or shoot something else. The HQ is the only IG building that can be repaired by more than one unit at a time and it takes the least damage from your weapons, so you're just wasting your time.

14) Where are the squad leaders on the FW? A pair of Shas'Ui on each FW team would have increased the squad's firepower by 50% (Shas'Ui do more damage than FW).

15) Your Pathfinders got pounded towards the end because of the vehicle pathing issues in DoW. You'd have been better off sending those vehicles around on the east track so they didn't munge up the pathing of your infantry.

16) Speaking of Pathfinders, I can't tell this from the replay, but make sure they're not on the same hotkey as your FW. You don't want them getting in front of your troops, but with their shorter firing range that WILL happen. I put my FW on hotkey 1 and the PTs on hotkey 4 or 5.


Edit: I added a replay of this matchup to the other thread.

[Deemer125]

Thanks for all the tips.
I know that having a second builder reduces time by 33%, but I had them on shift commands so didn't want to mess it up, but I'll practice more, and I kind of forgot to build my first fw and later fw due to microing even though it was early in the game, maybe I should put them on overwatch? And yeah, I'm not that good at dancing, so I'll have to practice more as well.
I was moving my fw around, so they were out of range of the buildings, and when the GM came along, it seemed that they had quite a lot of nades at the time and I didn't want to lose a lot of fw, but maybe moving them made them get shot up more?
The pulse rifle upgrade, I got almost immediately after the PtE was built, and I agree the SS upgrade was unnecessary, but I guess I'm more used to bigger games, so it was an automatic reaction to when the PtE's finished for me.
I guess I was waiting at the base for my skyray to come out and take the IC fire, or I might be over-rating the IC fire, and I didn't get the leaders because I thought that the game would be over soon anyway, so there wouldn't be any point.
My Pathfinders, I do put them on a different hotkey, and I got them out a little too late, but I think that was due to reinforcing the FW squads.

After my PtE is built, I research the Pulse Rifles, build my Vehicle Beacon, research Missile Barrage, then research the Power upgrade. That is roughly what I do each time after the PtE is built, and Pulse Rifles is a definite first for me.
Should any changes be made to that?
And thank you Makata, for the very detailed summery.

[Maktaka]

Regarding overwatch, don't use it if you can help it. You want to delay using overwatch as long as you can as it will always leave you with resources going to places you aren't entirely controlling, preferably not using it at all in tier 1 with units as expensive as FW unless you're performing an all-out retreat.

Regarding moving under fire, you definitely don't want to moving around that much. In ranged fights you only want to move if you will end up reducing damage while maintaining your own as you do so. In a FW vs GM w/ GL fight, the GL will outrange your FW (40 v 35) so you're not reducing damage taken and the setup time will significantly reduce your damage dealt. Damage from buildings, which won't be much if the GM are outside shooting at you, is not worth that kind of sacrifice.

Regarding your tier 2 plans, I'd say the FW squad leaders, PFs, and TC's missile launcher are a higher priority than a Vehicle Beacon, at least in a 1v1. Range and aoe damage like the Skyray offers are most useful when you're facing multiple well-reinforced infantry squads, although the AV damage can also be a good supplement to an SS squad that's already on the field. That can happen in a 3v3 or 4v4, but a 1v1 will be long over before that. The Vehicle Beacon, Skyray, and Missile Barrage cost 500/425 for one measly Skyray. You could completely outfit all three FW squads with Shas'Ui and get a PF squad for that and have it on the field much sooner while spending less. There are so many questions that get answered by having a PF and the appropriate squad leaders on your FW that you'll always want to buy them ASAP. Shield Drones are pretty much an auto-win in ranged slugging matches and Shas'Ui have great firepower and grenades that can murder the crap out of infantry when stacked on a single target.

[Pseudonymn]

Regarding overwatch, don't use it if you can help it. You want to delay using overwatch as long as you can as it will always leave you with resources going to places you aren't entirely controlling, preferably not using it at all in tier 1 with units as expensive as FW unless you're performing an all-out retreat.

I'd agree with this up to a point. If you're efficient with your macro, you should be able to build the structures and upgrades that you want before OW takes money out of the bank for its auto-production queue. If you're not efficient or if you plain forget that it's on then, yes, it can result in damage to your economy.

It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. If your macro is really efficient, you'll be producing what you need when you need it anyway. Overwatch is just a means of limiting the burden.

Personally, I use OW in all of my BOs, beginning with early production queues at the barracks once completed right up until I'm finished letting out the big T4 guns. I find it's an invaluable technique as it let's me focus on battlefield conditions and keeps me from generating unwanted float. Float is in and of itself an indicator of significant economic damage (wasted macro time) on the other end of the spectrum, which especially against the DoS AI you do NOT want to be doing. Does it require attention and proper management? Yes, absolutely it does. It's an advanced feature, but it's definitely worth learning how to fit it into your BO and, specifically, how to arrange your BO timing so that one compliments the other. Done properly and in conjunction with the use of rally points, it's simply the fastest way to get troops moving to where they're needed than can be achieved by hand alone (IMO).

[Maktaka]

True. It's good on units getting shot up (especially melee units) while they're in the fray, and on something cheap like GM I'll almost always use it after the first couple minutes when resource timings aren't as tight. On something like FW and other pricey units though, I find myself getting screwed by it in tier 1 more often than it helps. If I've reach the point where I can't find anything better to do with my resources other than set squads on overwatch, it's time I got myself out of tier 1.

[Pseudonymn]

Yeah, I'd have to definitely agree that setting squad-level reinforcements on OW too early is definitely an easy hole to fall in to; I was talking more about building production queues on OW. I usually won't touch OW on those until I have fielded all the units that I want to field in T1, built at least 2 gens and started a third, have an armory (or equivalent) + weapon upgrades for my commander, and used up any remaining power floated up to that point in LP1 upgrades. The timing is pretty tight, but by that time, the economy should be productive enough to start thinking about turning things over to the AI's OW queue. So, yeah, learning that fine line between manual production/reinforcements of early troops to prevent draining resources needlessly and getting comfy with OW is key.

[Arbit]

I saw this thread pop up and it inspired me to do a few AI mod skirmishes last night! I'll try to post the games tonight - the first was against a harder IG opponent and was a bit hilarious as I chose a tiny map, and the second was against an insane IG on a larger map. I played Tau on both. My early game strategy is 2-3 stealth suits, 2-3 firewarriors, and the commander. I lead with the commander because he has decent sight and can soak up a little damage while the firewarriors set up behind. Once he's got their attention I pull back the commander back and let the firewarriors go to work. He can get a little beat up with way - if his health gets critical, I play more defensively and use a forward LP2 for sight. Once I hit T2 I get pathfinders ASAP, sarges on all the stealthsuits, get the non-flamer weapon upgrades on the commander, then finally kit out my firewarrior squads. The firewarrior range upgrade goes in there too. I've usually got the IG already bottled up already and the stealthsuits and commander can take out an early vehicle (EMP grenades are so, so good), so at this point it's just a matter of fully upgrading the suits and pecking away at their buildings with impunity. Sometimes I get skyrays but usually it's not necessary.

I don't use vespids. Because of the crazy resource bonus the AI gets I find I need to kill at long range with minimal losses, and vespids tend to get shot up simply because there's only one of them and the AI has tons of squads. I'd be curious to see some games with them.

[Deemer125]

Thanks, and if you could post the replays on Makata's link, that would be very helpful
Would be very interesting to see how you play, and maybe adapt my play-style

[Pseudonymn]

I've never been a big user of the Vespid home-wrecker strategy. If I recall, the patch changes lead to it being an expensive all-or-nothing strategy that basically meant you were screwed if it didn't work. And the window of time where it can work really limits the strategy to 1v1 or maybe 2v2 maps. Anything more than that and, like you said, they tend to get eaten. I'd rather go with another FW or possibly Kroot for the cost and versatility. Vespids aren't worth balls as anything but emergency detectors and building bashers. It would have been cool if they scaled better, but alas.