Blood Angels w/ Allied Guard 2k pts

[SocietySoldier]

So here's a preliminary list (thoughts below):
Also I have not done any 6ed games yet, so the new rules are still new to me and I finally have time to game soon since I've graduated school

Mephiston (1) – 250

Reclusiarch (1) – 170 (goes with honour guard)
Jump Pack
Powerfist

Honour Guard (5) – 305
Jump Packs
Power Weapons (4)
Storm Shields (4)

Sanguinary Priests (2) – 150 (go with assault squads)
Jump Packs (2)

Assault Squad (10) – 235
Jump Packs (10)
Power Fist (1)
Meltagun (2)

Assault Squad (10) – 235
Jump Packs (10)
Power Fist (1)
Meltagun (2)

Allies: Battle Brothers

Primaris Psyker (1) – 70

Infantry Platoon – 255
Platoon Command Squad (5)
Sniper Rifle (2)
Autocannon (1)
Infantry Squad (10)
Sniper Rifle (1)
Autocannon (1)
Infantry Squad (10)
Sniper Rifle (1)
Autocannon (1)
Heavy Weapon Squad (6)
Autocannon (3)

Leman Russ Squadron – 330
Leman Russ Battle Tank (2)
Hull Lascannon (2)

My thoughts on the list:
-Do I need a bastion or defensive structure to anchor the army?
-I'd like to fit in a Chapter banner on the honour guard if they're even worth taking
-Should I kit out the guardsmen as I have them?
-Primaris Psyker seems like a good cheap ally HQ
-Should I try to squeeze in another apothecary to go with all of the allied guard blob
-Mephiston or reclusiarch as warlord? or other thoughts on HQ's
-Only two tanks is somewhat worrisome but they still pack a

Any other thoughts are great since I'm still reading my way through 6ed
Seems like sniper rifles can be pretty nasty now and Psykers seem quite important

I have some extra models to work with including: stormraven, land raider crusader, tactical squad, assault squad in razorback, scouts w/ snipers, apothecaries and librarians and chaplains, death company, cc dread, cc termies

[Elerium]

Just as a heads up, allies I think don't work in the way you are thinking: basically you're playing two different armies, from what I know you have to have 1 HQ from one codex and another HQ and Troop from the other, then for every core unit you pick from your primary codex army your allies codex creates a slot using your force org (so one core troop would equal to one allies troop, one core elites troop would equal to one allies elite, same for the rest).

[Foxfyre]

Actually he has it right. HQ + 2 troops then HQ + 1 troop from allied army; that's all that is required before you can start having fun. Draigo + 2 paladins as primary opens up all sorts of fun

[Elerium]

But he has a Reclusiarch, Mephiston and a Primaris Psyker.. that's 3 HQ's, and if he has the tanks that would mean (I assume) Codex BA is the primary codex so he needs at least a BA Heavy Support to cover the tanks.

Edit: Actually, you can have two HQ's with a HQ allied detachment? Wordy rules.. still confused as the Force Org says "Optional 1 HQ, Mandatory 1 HQ" so thus it would be only two HQ's you're allowed?

[Foxfyre]

3 HQs.
As you said earlier it's essentially an army plus an army, the main FoC applies to the primary detachment then you have the option of using the allied FoC in addition.

[SocietySoldier]

Yes as I understood the new rules, it's like having a second limited FOG

Anyone have any thoughts on the list itself?

[Mantaray]

primary thoughts on the list...
what exactly are you looking for from your IG allies?
if your going to take things from the BS3 list, then PLEASE get vox casters. 5points per squad to make the orders system work is truly worth it.

but. if you are just going to sit there, maybe just grab one or two veteran squads. you can give them a heavy weapon THREE special weapons AND carapace armour with the bonus of BS4 for ~150 a squad depending what you buy. imo. they're amazing. instead of getting flat out eaten by every gun at AP5 you get a save! and you don't get insta-killed by boltguns! huzzar!

autocannons in my opinion are.. less usefull then you think they are. if you want multi-purpose fire power for dealing with infantry and vehicles get missile launchers. you can even snap-shot krak missiles! but not frags unfortunately due to how the rules are worded.

same goes for the sniper rifles. unless you intend to be shooting monster creatures, the plasma gun is a super duper weapon and unless im mistaken, you can look out sir on gets hot! wounds.


i also think you have a miss-match with your fists, shields and swords.
generally speaking, marine HQ's have a decent initiative, so its a shame to waste it on a powerfist. but if you desperately do need that 2xS, THEN combo it with the storm shield for that 3+invul to help you get the hits in.

as for the honour guard, they would all benefit from that +1 attack for a second close combat weapon. (storm shield isn't) to use those powerswords to good effect. or, if its available to you, use combat shields for that additional invul in combat.

also. i think one of your assault squads would benefit from being less anti-vehicle. i mean sure have one squad that will melt any poor tank that gets close. but depending on what your fighting, i would consider going for a sword+combat shield and 2 flamers.

[SocietySoldier]

Thanks for the thoughts Manta
I was already considering vet squads instead of a platoon, they do seem like they would be more worth it with plasmaguns and maybe chimeras?

The honour guard squad I can be flexible with, and the models I have already have an extra hand weapon, plus I could throw the Chapter Banner on there as well

What about just swapping flamers into one squad w/ power weapon?

I'll retype a list tomorrow after I've had some sleep

[819244]

I agree with everything Mantaray has to say apart from the following:

then PLEASE get vox casters.

Usually good advice. But as you're only going to be issuing one order per turn, I don't think it's worthwhile.

And while I would never recommend a Primaris Psyker over a Company Command Squad for an IG army, for an Allied Detachment, I think it's a really, really good idea. Might include some IG allies under a Primaris for my Chaos list.

autocannons in my opinion are.. less usefull then you think they are.

Space Marine fires a Krak Missile at the front armour of a Chaos Rhino. 3+ to hit. 3+ to knock off a Hull Point. 44% chance of knocking off that Hull point. 5% chance of penetrating and rolling a Destroyed result.

Space Marine fires an Auto-cannon at the front armour of a Chaos Rhino (or Necron vehicle, badass Dark Eldar vehicle, side armour of a real tank). 3+ to hit... twice. 4+ to knock off a Hull point. 66% chance of knocking off at least one Hull Point (11% chance of doing 2 HP). 7% chance of penetrating and rolling a Destroyed result.

Firing at an AV 10 Wartrukk (sucky Dark Eldar vehicle, rear armour of a real tank):
Krak Missile has a 55% chance of knocking of a HP (9% chance of a kill);
Autocannon has a 66% chance of doing the HP (19% chance at 2HP and 11% chance at the kill).

Firing at GEQs, both ignore armour and cause 2+ instant death.

Granted, Kraks are better at killing MEQs (AP 3) -- so long as those MEQs aren't in cover, in which case the autocannon is just as good. And they're better at the high AV vehicles... but you're gonna want to be putting your AP2 Lascannons (at range) and AP1 Meltas (up close) on actual vehicles. (Hoping to glance death AV14 with Krak missiles is a bit... well.. sad.)

I'm not saying missile launchers are a bad option: especially in a list like this that has fists and meltas for cracking tough tanks (with no lascannons in the list, missile launchers aren't a bad option for your long range gambits). But autocannons are still every bit as good as people think they are (still).

carapace armour

Usually not worth it. For the price of one Veteran in Carapace Armour, I can get two guardsmen in Flak. Carapace armour saves you 50% of the time, but you get half the wounds. And if I can sit my guardsmen in cover (which may or may not be viable owing to your local meta - but I still play in pretty heavy urban terrain), then I get a 4+ save for free. And if the squad is riding in a chimera, you won't be taking many armour saves anyway.

On the other hand, Veterans do get more cool weapons. And they have the higher BS. But you'll have fewer (scoring) units if you go the Veterans route. Plasma guns are ridiculously good and paying a few points to help keep your plasma gunner alive can win you games. But then having scoring units can also win you games.

I think that Infantry Platoons will serve you better than Veterans because "better" is not always better. More is always better.

Ultimately, I think carapace armour is not a good idea. But if you're dead set on Veteran's it's not a bad idea either.

unless im mistaken, you can look out sir on gets hot! wounds

I'm pretty sure you are right. You can "look out, sir!" on "get's hot!" wounds. But only characters can "look out, sir!" Plasmagunners are not characters.

sniper rifles. unless you intend to be shooting monster creatures

Yeah... never see those in my local meta. Plus, you know, Precision Shot. I've half a mind to bring my Ratlings out of retirement just to kill off the characters and special weapons hiding at the back of squads. And sniper rifles are, what, a third of the cost of plasma guns (don't have my codex to hand).

****

What about just swapping flamers into one squad w/ power weapon?

Personally I'd keep the fist. 6th Ed has made target prioritising and focusing your firepower even more central to the game. If I'm running a tanks list, I'm going to throw everything I've got at your melta unit... which won't help me if your flamer unit can also pop my tanks. Plus AP2 is really hard to come by in close combat now, and while hidden fists are no longer as usual as they used to be (on account of challenges taking away the "hidden" part), hitting hard still hits hard. (Plus you've got the Sanguinary Priest for challenges... right?)

[SocietySoldier]

So then if I do take a CCS instead of a Primaris Psyker, how would you kit them out?
For the most part I didn;t want to take a CCS since I'm avoiding having to take another Chimera, I only have two, and if i take two vet squads, I'm likely to shove them in Chimeras

Basic thoughts on a list that I haven't had a chance to flesh out yet

Mephiston
CHaplain w/ Jump Pack
Honour Guard Squad w/ Jump packs, 4 Power Swords, Chapter Banner
2 Sanguinary Priests w/ Jump Packs
Assault Squad w/ Powerfist, 2 Meltaguns
Assault Squad w/ Power Weapon, Flamer, Melta
Primaris Psyker
Vet Squad w/ Plasma Pistol, 3 Plasmagun, Chimera
Vet Squad w/ Plasma Pistol, 3 Plasmagun, Chimera
2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks w/ Hull Lascannon

Haven't crunched the points but I will soon

If it really is worth taking the CCS then I can always get another chimera if need be, I'm also saving a good bit of points on not taking stormshields now on the Honour Guard

[Mantaray]

I'm pretty sure you are right. You can "look out, sir!" on "get's hot!" wounds. But only characters can "look out, sir!" Plasmagunners are not characters.

i do beg your pardon. you're right any uncertainty is cleared up in the reference part of the rulebook.

i agree with your assessment that autocannons are superior for dealing with light vehicles. but if anything av14 turns up you have no-chance. the lascannon points increase for the sake of an extra strength i don't feel is worth it for heavy vehicles, hence my missile recommendation.

oo! if you're going to wack your guardsmen in chimeras i strongly recommend a 3 flamer + 1 heavy flamer kit-out. its like having a hell hound that then. captures objectives. its super.

as mentioned carapace armour is truly down to your local gaming boards. if you are constantly sitting in places that give 4+ cover then obviously i wouldn't bother. but i still argue that veteran squads are worth it simply for the high density of special weapons at bs4. seeing as your enemy is probably going to be prioritising all the nasty blood angels you can get away with the low guard model count.

[Cuddles]

Replace the Chimera with Vendettas? You'll then have 6 twin linked lascannons, enough to deal with any armor 14 vehicle and the ability to pretty much get your men anywhere on the board to contest objectives. Depends if you are planning to DoA with your Blood Angels, as you will need to consider the amount of units you must deploy. Although you are battle brothers remember the sang priests cannot give FnP to an allied detachment.

[SocietySoldier]

I have no vendettas, don't really plan on purchasing any either

Edit:
Mephiston - 250
Reclusiarch w/ Jump Pack - 155
Honour Guard w/ Jump Packs, Chapter Banner, 4x Power Swords - 255
2 Sanguinary Priests w/ Jump Packs - 150
Assault Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, 2x Meltagun - 235
Assault Squad w/ Jump Packs, Power Sword, 2x Flamer - 215

Primaris Psyker - 70
Veteran Squad w/ 3x Plasmagun - 115
Chimera – 55 Heavy Bolter, Hull Heavy Flamer
Veteran Squad w/ 3x Plasmagun - 115
Chimera – 55 Heavy Bolter, Hull Heavy Flamer
2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks w/ Hull Lascannons – 330

Cut the list to exactly 2k points, things I'm considering is getting rid of either Mephiston OR Reclusiarch and Honour Guard and then playing with the remaining points to maybe take a CCS in Chimera with flamers/heavy flamer and then give voxes.
Also, how do people like equipping their chimeras? Two heavy bolters or what? Seems like having two heavy bolters could be quite nice.

[819244]

Just to be clear, I recommend you keep the Psyker and do NOT have a Company Command Squad. The reason being is that Imperial Guard armies need the extra orders. When fielded in small numbers as Allies you don't need as many orders, and Psychic powers are really useful. (But were you to take a CCS, I'm a fan of 4 plasma guns, plasma pistol and chimera or lascannon/Master of Ordnance.)

****

the lascannon points increase for the sake of an extra strength i don't feel is worth it for heavy vehicles, hence my missile recommendation.

But it's not just the extra strength, it's also extra AP that helps to pop vehicles. And as power swords (and exotic power weapons - like Nemesis Force Weapons) don't cut through Terminator Armour any more, AP 2 has gotten that much more useful.

Yes, the lascannon costs twice as much as the Missile launcher, but it's also twice as likely to knock a hull point off an AV14 vehicle AND it's actually able to destroy an AV 14 vehicle in one hit (and it gets a bonus from it's AP when rolling on the Pen table).

That said, if you've got a Heavy Weapon's Squad, it doesn't make that much difference as you can pile on the pain with lots of Missile Launchers while keeping your points costs low. Whereas a Lascannon squad means every lascannon that dies to enemy fire is a LOT of points down the drain. But if you can screen your Heavy Weapons with regular squaddies (as in a Veteran's Squad) then the extra effectiveness of the lascannon is worth the cost.


****

SocietySoldier, most people (myself included) take the default Multi-laser/heavy bolter. It's the most flexible layout: a high strength weapon that'll wound Marines on a 2+ and a Medium AP weapon that will ignore Tau/Stormtrooper armour saves. That said, there aren't really any bad options with the Chimera (flamer is short ranged, but counters your low BS; twin HBs isn't that useful against MEQs but is great against GEQs).

[SocietySoldier]

Thanks for the tips, I'll have to go with the ML/HB combo then for the variability. I think this might be my default list for the time being and once I get a chance to play it more I can fiddle with it and make some changes

[Fat_Bloke]

Just a few thoughts on the list.

Keep in mind that the limitations that Mephi now has. He is listed as being armed with a force sword, this means that his attacks have an AP of 3, so keep him away from anything and everything that has a 2+ save. This is especially true of characters, Mephi is a one man character unit meaning that if challenged he must accept, if the guy challenging him has a 2+ save and a fist or thunder hammer then Mephi is pretty much toast.

I would seriously consider dropping the reclusiarch for a libby. Divination really is a stupid strong set of powers because the primaris power (the one you can always have) is re roll failed to hits. This works for shooting and assault in your turn and your opponents, much better than just the turn you charge. In addition to this, the primaris power, prescience, is a blessing and therefore your opponent can only attempt to block it if he is running wolves or eldar. You don't need to worry about a libby with no invuln getting caught out in a combat any more either as IC's do not fight individually like they did in 5th.

I am going to have to disagree with those who have already written on the use of the IG allies. Vet squads in chimeras were a really solid base for an army in 5th, they can still be so in a 6th edition IG army but not really in an allied contingent, especially given the rest of your list. Chimeras worked in 5th because they were spammed, whether or not they will still work in that capacity in 6th is up for debate but you still need to have in the region of 10 AV12 vehicles to make it work (if, indeed, it still does). 2 AV12 vehicles can pretty easily be dropped in the first turn of the game and because of how vulnerable vehicles are to assault, if your opponent can get to them you will most likely lose the vehicle and the squad inside. What I would suggest is to go back to your earlier idea of a platoon, leave the PCS with nothing (your going to hide them all game anyway, otherwise you will just give up the first blood secondary objective in every game) and put an autocannon and a plasma gun into each infantry squad. Then, use the combine squad rule to blob them and finally add your newly acquired libby to lead the squad. The libby can sit in the blob squad and cast prescience on them to allow the to re roll all their shooting, suddenly that BS3 is not such a big deal. Even better that this though is that the libby now confers his ATSKNF onto the guard blob squad meaning that they are Ld10, auto regroup if they happen to fail a leadership and cannot be the victim of a sweeping advance in CC. I have played with it a bit and it is a massive pain in the arse to get rid of.

Finally, vehicles in squadrons are almost never a good idea. Leman Russ especially so, remember that both tanks have to shoot the same target leading inevitably to either overkill or underkill. More importantly than this vehicles are incredibly vulnerable to assault now and being in a squadron just means the enemy can assault one of them and blow them both up.

[819244]

Finally, vehicles in squadrons are almost never a good idea. Leman Russ especially so, remember that both tanks have to shoot the same target leading inevitably to either overkill or underkill. More importantly than this vehicles are incredibly vulnerable to assault now and being in a squadron just means the enemy can assault one of them and blow them both up.

Kinda disagree. I've never killed an entire squad with a single Battlecannon shot (*snigger*). People don't wrack up their units in nice 3x3 rows and sit them out of cover (*snigger*). People deploy in lines, space out to maximum coherency distance and hug cover. When you want a unit dead, you want it dead. And throwing two Ordnance Blasts at a squad is a good way of doing that. Vis-vehicles, two battlecannons and two lascannons seems a good way to knock off HPs. Sure, you might get lucky and blow your target up with the first shot - good for you. It's more likely, however, that you won't. And it's no more over-kill than your standard Devastator Squad (four heavy weapons firing at the same target).

Plus the shortest range on those tanks is 48". Yes, Deep Strike, Outflank, etc, exist and so sitting at the back of the board isn't a foolproof way of staying out of combat... but really, getting charged should not be your first concern here: we're not talking about using the tanks to hold the line, we're using them as AV14 artillery pieces.

Granted, fielding a tank squadron is far from ideal, but your alternatives are to spend more points on your allies to field a second detachment (which weakens the assault portion of the main army) or only take one Leman Russ... which isn't going to be enough firepower. So... what is it that you're suggesting? Predator? Not enough firepower. Vindicator? Too short range. Land Raider? Too expensive.

Your criticism is valid. I agree it's a weak link. I just don't see another option.

[Fat_Bloke]

@819244 Sorry, my meaning didn't come across correctly on the overkill/underkill thing. What I mean in that with Leman Russ, generally, you tend to have the problem that the stuff that is bunched up enough to land a good number of hits on is going to be chaff like ork boys or guardsmen, you will kill 5 or 6 but they don't care (overkill). Against higher value targets, such as marines, they will spread and you will never hit more than 3 (underkill). The underkill is an even bigger problem in 6th as your opponent can put a model with a 2+ save at the front of the unit so they can eat all the battlecannon shots, they will do this with the unit you really need/want to hit. This problem is only exaggerated by having 2 in a squadron.

In terms of alternatives, the most obvious for me is a manticore and a vendetta. They will fill the same kind of role as the Leman Russ but much better and come from 2 different FOC slots so can independently target. Personally, I would be tempted to drop the heavy support from the allies as the best thing you get from it will be the IG blob squad. Instead put in an assault cannon/ multi melta Stormraven and a couple of dakka preds, that will get you solid backfield presence and the Stormraven to both reach out and touch enemy tanks/elite infantry and give you some air presence that challenges enemy fliers.

[SocietySoldier]

Interesting things to consider here from both of you, I don't have any predators but With the option to drop mephiston and play with some things, I'll remake the list and see what I can make of it.

I'll never give up the Chaplain, they always come through for me when I need them most, not to mention I have a sweet model for my Jump Chaplain.

[Fat_Bloke]

@SocietySoldier If you love the Chaplain then stick with it man. I probably should have said in my initial post, I look at these things from a hard efficiency standpoint because it is how I most enjoy the game. I am, however, very much aware that my approach is not everyone's cup of tea and I would not want to try and make people play my way.

[SocietySoldier]

@ Fat_BLoke: No harm done

And wow i had a revelation last night while looking through the new rulebook that death company are now ridiculous with the new change to the rage rule.

New List:

Librarian w/ Jump Pack – 125 (goes w/ Meltagun Assault Squad) (Divination Powers)
Reclusiarch w/ Jump Pack – 155 (goes w/ Honour Guard)
Honour Guard w/ Jump Packs, Chapter Banner, 4x Power Swords - 255
2 Sanguinary Priests w/ 2x Power Sword, Jump Packs - 180
Assault Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, 2x Meltagun - 235
Assault Squad w/ Jump Packs, Power Sword, Hand Flamer, 2x Flamer - 225

Primaris Psyker – 70 (goes w/ a Veteran Squad)
Guardsman Marbo - 65
Veteran Squad w/ Plasma Pistol, 3x Plasmagun - 115
Chimera – 55 Multi-Laser, Hull Heavy Bolter
Veteran Squad w/ Plasma Pistol, 3x Plasmagun - 115
Chimera – 55 Multi-Laser, Hull Heavy Bolter
2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks w/ Hull Lascannons – 330

This is of course still preliminary, the only thing I think it's missing is some meltabombs on the Honour Guard and/or the Flamer Assault Squad

[SocietySoldier]

Finalized the list I think:

Librarian w/ Epistolary, Jump Pack – 175 (goes w/ Meltagun Assault Squad)(Divination Powers)
Reclusiarch w/ Jump Pack – 155 (goes w/ Honour Guard)
Honour Guard w/ Jump Packs, Chapter Banner, 4x Power Swords, 4x Meltabombs - 275
2 Sanguinary Priests w/ 2x Power Sword, Jump Packs - 180
Assault Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, 2x Meltagun - 235
Assault Squad w/ Jump Packs, Power Sword, Meltabomb, 2x Flamer - 220

Primaris Psyker – 70 (goes w/ either Veteran Squad)
Veteran Squad w/ Plasma Pistol, 3x Plasmagun - 125
Chimera w/ Multi-Laser, Hull Heavy Bolter – 55
Veteran Squad w/ Plasma Pistol, 3x Plasmagun - 125
Chimera w/ Multi-Laser, Hull Heavy Bolter – 55
2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks w/ Hull Lascannons – 330

Threw in some more meltabombs, got rid of Marbo since he is potentially just a gamble, also upgraded to an epistolary to use that extra power if need be