How ignorant are you about basic women's biology?

[Stripe7]

This has perplexed me, this is the modern era and I live in the US which is supposedly the most technologically advanced nation on Earth. Two recent incidents in the US has given me grave doubts about the general knowledge level of the US men about women's biology.

The first was the Sandra Fluke incident where Rush Limbaugh a right wing loudmouth, on his radio show widely announced his ignorance of how BCP's work. (Birth control pills). Those are taken daily and not used like a condom like Rush Limbaugh said on his radio show. How could he not know this?

Now we have this politician Todd Akin, who thinks that women have the ability to stop impregnation from Rape due to their biological makeup!

These are just two very public instances of a total lack of knowledge of the basic biology of 51% of the population of the US!

I am just curious as to how much ignorance of basic women's biology have been encountered by the members of this forum?

[Akranadas]

I think the main issue here is simply old men who grew up in a time where women stayed at home and did what their husbands said.

There could also be an issue in that those topics; birth control, contraception, periods and menopause are generally taboo subjects that people shy away from discussing those matters, even with their partners. So it is fundamentally a education issue.

[CommissarRezail]

Also women don't know about men biology just the same. Just we don't give a crap to complain about it, not saying your complaining.

Well all i need to know is once(week or so) a month don't start shit with her, and the basics. That's about , less i usually ask the better, sometiimes you get odd answers from them anyway that doesn't relate to their biology but personal preference.

Also don't take rush comments about women seriously, turkey neck rush wouldn't know a woman's mouth from her anus.

[AridMonk]

All those topics were covered in depth in a class called SE (Social Education? I never really knew) at my school, and I think every school in the UK (aside from the rape/pregnancy control thing, that, thats just ridiculous). It frightens me a little how ignorant some of the more "Educated" members of the US social structure are on these topics, particularly when called to have a political stance on them.

[Moe]

These are just two very public instances of a total lack of knowledge of the basic biology of 51% of the population of the US!

Why are you surprised? In this same country, only 40% of the population thinks that evolution is real (in case you're trying to find the US, it's all the way at the end next to Turkey), while 60% is either not sure or flat out says that it's not, where the chairman of the Energy and Commerce committee thinks that ocean levels can't possibly rise because it says so in the bible, and where a congressman during an armed forces committee hearing expressed his concerns that stationing more troops on Guam may cause the island to capsize.

Of course, some of this can probably be blamed on horrible textbooks. (Disclaimer: That's a book used for extreme Christian home schooling, but still).

[ShyGuy]

To continue off of what Moe said, it's not only that people are ignorant, but that that their ignorance is reinforced by other idiots. Todd Akin claims to have heard something about this child-proofing a raped woman's body performs from doctors he's talked to. Of course, that may not be intended to be a factual statement. However, it isn't completely absurd that he happened to hear something about a woman's health being adversely affected by rape, and that this, in some circumstances, could cause problems with a resultant pregnancy. The absurd part is taking this information and twisting it into some kind of moral referendum on the victim.

Also, what the hell is a legitimate rape?

[Ewokz]

I believe "legitiment" was used to reference woman who had actually been raped and not those that could or claim to have been victims of rape in order to get an abortion. That info is second hand so some correct me if I'm wrong.

[Stripe7]

Ewokz, the ignorant portion of what he said was that a woman cannot get pregnant from rape. Hence if she got pregnant she was not legitimately raped. He is ignoring the 38,000 yearly pregnancies from reported rape in the US or redefining those to not be rape since they got pregnant. It seems it may be deliberate ignorance in order to bypass the abortion in case of rape or incest portion of some proposed laws.

[ShyGuy]

To be fair Stripe, Todd Akin didn't claim women were physically incapable of getting pregnant from a "legitimate" rape. Wikipedia has the full quote (or at least more context.)

[Ewokz]

Stripe he didnt exactly say that, heres the quote:

"If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. But let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work or something. I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child."

Obviously he was wrong about females having the ability to stop pregnancy when raped, but he didn't say that it was impossible for women to become pregnant after rape. I was replying to Shyguy in my last post btw, if that wasn't clear.

As far as I'm aware he only used "legitiment" to describe women who had been raped and weren't faking it to get abortions. Obviously the guys about as ignorant as its possible to get but any focus on the word "legitiment" is misplaced.

[CommissarRezail]

Wow only 40 percent believe in evolution, and we still think electricity is a mystery, good old American schooling.....

[Mac_Bug]

So, what you are saying is he thinks most of the women who got pregnant after being raped are actually faking it so they could get abortions, nevermind the fact that abortion is actually legal in the US of A.

[Starblade]

Obviously the guys about as ignorant as its possible to get but any focus on the word "legitiment" is misplaced.

He is literally saying that if a woman is raped "legitimately" (?), the body can shut down "that whole thing" (??) down, but if for some reason the Rape Self Defense Biological System fails then the rapist should be punished. That's what those words in that order mean.

[Nerdfish]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/pre...as-ille,29258/

[Ewokz]

From what I can infer they were discussing abortions, abortions in the event of rape obviously then came into play and the potential for a system where only rape-abortions were legal had the flaw that women could lie about the circumstances of how they got pregnant allowing them to get abortions for children that were made under normal circumstances.

Although I am admittedly pulling that out of my arse, as I said most of what I've written about I got second hand, I'd need to watch the interview for myself really. Might be handy if someone in this thread had seen the interview


@Starblade Surely the issue is with the rest of the sentence and not the word legitiment? "the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down" is the problem, as he clearly has no idea what he's talking about. He's using the word "legitiment" just to differentiate between women who haven't been raped and those who have.

Also personally I don't think the guy was saying rape shouldn't be punished unless the victim is pregnant, I very much doubt he's that stupid. He said there should be punishment for the rapist in this situation not the resultant child who would be punished if an abortion was carried out, he's not making a comment on anything else.

[Starblade]

@Starblade Surely the issue is with the rest of the sentence and not the word legitiment?

No. The problem is the entire thing and the ideas behind it and what he is intending to propagate. There's no such thing as an illegitimate rape. There's just rape.

[Ewokz]

By "illegitimate rape" he meant people pretending they were raped in order to get abortions for babies they didn't want. IE. people who were not raped

[Starblade]

By "illegitimate rape" he meant people pretending they were raped in order to get abortions for babies they didn't want.

Do go on.

Also personally I don't think the guy was saying rape shouldn't be punished unless the victim is pregnant, I very much doubt he's that stupid.

What you just said and what I just said do not mean the same thing.

[Ewokz]

@Starblade these are not my opinions, I was explaining the context for his quote nothing more.


Heres the section in question:

Transcript of *remarks by Missouri Republican Senate candidate Todd Akin on abortion:



Charles Jaco:
“On abortion, you’ve been pro-life your entire career.”

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.):
“Yeah.”

Charles Jaco:
“You’ve been very staunchly pro-life. Are there any circumstances in your mind in which abortion should be legal?”

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.):
“Well, I think that sometimes people talk about life of the mother as a situation, Charles. And in my sense, one of the foundational things America is built on is a respect for life. So I would say you optimize life.
“So, for instance, a woman has a tubal pregnancy or something. Well, technically by my understanding life begins at conception, so you technically had conception. But the child doesn’t have a chance and will soon kill a mother, okay? So I would say in those kinds of situations, you try to optimize life.


“But, you know, my case in this, Charles, has been even if you sort of separate a little the whole abortion question out, one of the things I love about this country is the fact that Americans do consider life really important.
“And it’s not because of some theoretical thing – you’re on a talk show and somebody asks you about it – but you have Sept. 11 and you’ve got these guys that are running into a building that’s about to collapse. They find somebody in a wheelchair. They never checked their ID or anything like that or whether they’re important. They grab them and get them to safety, and they run back and get another one.
“Same kind of thing that we saw – Ollie North has some footage. You know, he’s been right there in the front with cameras taking footage. This is over in Iraq. And there’s a Marine – a big guy, and he’s got this guy who’s wounded over his shoulder and he’s running. The bullets are flying around. And there is a cameraman in a safe position saying, ‘Hey, that guy’ – and the guy’s fatigues are just up and you can see that this is an Iraqi citizen. This isn’t the U.S. soldier. Says, ‘Hey, that’s an Iraqi citizen. Why are you risking your life there?’ This Marine turns around and he looks straight into that guy’s camera and he said, ‘Because that’s what we do.’
“And that spirit of America, I think, is so important for us to protect that idea of the importance of all of us.”

Charles Jaco:
“Okay, so if an abortion can be considered in the case of, say, tubal pregnancy or something like that, what about in the case of rape? Should it be legal or not?”

Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.):
“Well, you know, uh, people always want to try to make that as one of those things, ‘Well, how do you – how do you slice this particularly tough sort of ethical question.’
“It seems to me, first of all, from what I understand from doctors, that’s really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
“But let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work or something. You know, I think there should be some punishment but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child.”


###

[Starblade]

Did you not read that quote at all? It confirms what I said. The man literally thinks that if a woman has been raped there is some sort of biological system that can detect that the woman has in fact been raped and not Fake Raped and "shut it down", and that in the case that it fails the rapist should be punished.

“Same kind of thing that we saw – Ollie North has some footage. You know, he’s been right there in the front with cameras taking footage. This is over in Iraq. And there’s a Marine – a big guy, and he’s got this guy who’s wounded over his shoulder and he’s running. The bullets are flying around. And there is a cameraman in a safe position saying, ‘Hey, that guy’ – and the guy’s fatigues are just up and you can see that this is an Iraqi citizen. This isn’t the U.S. soldier. Says, ‘Hey, that’s an Iraqi citizen. Why are you risking your life there?’ This Marine turns around and he looks straight into that guy’s camera and he said, ‘Because that’s what we do.’

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Mac_Bug]

or he could refer to legitimate rape as in violent rape, as opposed to date rape, otherwise I would have no context to understand his reference to the body's defenses.

[Ewokz]

Yes he's an idiot with no idea how the female body works, but I don't see how he was talking about "fake rape" and that's how women who are raped get pregnant.

Given the context it just looks like he was pointing out rape 100% occurred in his hypothetical example, because given a system where rape was the one legal exception to his belief of no abortions, people could potentially lie about it to abort babies produced in regular circumstance. He used one word to sum it up and it's bit him on the arse. It seems more likely to me thats what he meant than a dude thinking people who have babies as a result of rape are "fake raped". That would be literally retarded.

[Starblade]

Given the context it just looks like he was pointing out rape 100% occurred in his hypothetical example, because given a system where rape was the one legal exception to his belief of no abortions, people could potentially lie about it to abort babies produced in regular circumstance.

Before I forget to mention it, saying that women are lying about being raped or are willing to do so in large enough numbers to be relevant to get abortions also makes him a fantastically shitty person and is also not worth defending. Dismissing accusations of rape as women lying or it "not counting" or however the fuck you want to dress it up normalizes rape in the same way stating that that woman deserved it for dressing like a slut does.

But the child doesn’t have a chance and will soon kill a mother, okay? So I would say in those kinds of situations, you try to optimize life.

Also somebody tell me what this means.

That would be literally retarded.

As opposed to what he is saying under your interpretation?

[Ewokz]

Also somebody tell me what this means.

No Idea.

As opposed to what he is saying under your interpretation?

Oh sure what he's saying isn't great, it just sounds far more believable an opinion for someone to hold than what your proposing. An old guy thinking that people would lie to bypass a strict abortion system just seems more likely than him thinking that women who are raped and get pregnant weren't really raped.

Before I forget to mention it, saying that women are lying about being raped or are willing to do so in large enough numbers to be relevant to get abortions also makes him a fantastically shitty person and is also not worth defending.

It hardly makes him a shitty person for considering it, if a hypothetical system like that were to be implemented its likely that a number of women would lie in order to obtain abortions. Unwanted pregnancy is a very serious and emotional issue, and in many circles its much more frowned upon to have an unwanted pregnancy than to be the victim of rape. Both issues are obviously extremely emotional issues so I'd rather not go into both of them at once, at least to me its clear that a system where only rape victims were given the option of abortions would not work at all and would result in at least some false claims.

Dismissing accusations of rape as women lying or it "not counting" or however the fuck you want to dress it up normalizes rape in the same way stating that that woman deserved it for dressing like a slut does.

Not exactly sure where the hell this has come from

[Starblade]

It hardly makes him a shitty person for considering it, if a hypothetical system like that were to be implemented its likely that a number of women would lie in order to obtain abortions.

The problem is that, not hypothetically, that often happens already. And unfortunately for many, rape often leads to unwanted pregnancy. Further, I would argue that putting forth that argument only leads to further normalizing the idea, if even slightly, among the people willing to listen to it. No matter how you slice it, it's a shitty argument and he's shitty for saying it.

[Ewokz]

His point was not to give special treatment to anyone in terms of abortion, the reason being that to do so would lead to abuse of the system. Abuse of the system would lead to pretty much exactly what your saying, it would normalize the idea that women might be faking it, which is bad. Stating that the system could be abused hardly makes you a horrible human being, its just stating the truth and its valid reason for either allowing everyone abortions or no-one to have them, having a middle ground causes the issues you've raised.

E: Bugger I'm off to bed its 7am :/ I'll get back to this tonight.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Also somebody tell me what this means.

Broadly I'm assuming he means that in that case the baby's dead either way and an abortion might save the mother. So in his opinion you can perform an abortion.

[LoCo]

Ewokz: Ummm, how, exactly, is a woman going to claim she got raped when she finds out she is pregnant?

First, there would be a police report yeah? Because a woman who has been raped is going to go to the police. So, the woman who hasn't been raped and is looking for an abortion is going to? What? Get a fake police report? How is she going to do that?

Unless you are saying that a woman is going to go to the police and claim she has been raped every time she has sex?

That argument doesn't work. At all. So either this guy is braindead, or he is a braindead shit. Either way, I think the bigger question here should be why Americans keep putting people like this in places of power?

[Mac_Bug]

Ewokz, that's about as valid as me saying we shouldn't send anyone to jail because we might jail innocents.

maybe what he actually meant to say is women who are raped get morning after pills that solves the problem of pregnancy most of the time.

Wait, isn't that considered abortion?

[PetarB]

I am literally speechless.
How do these people get elected? I guess they represent their constituency?

[Malachi]

LoCo, didn't it occur to you that there is no legal requirement for rape victims to report the rape, and that actually about half of them don't do that, due to numerous reasons like, you know, the risk of that info reaching the public?

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Malachi: How does this weaken his argument in any way?

[Malachi]

If you're asking about the argument that a woman couldn't possibly claim that her pregnancy is a result of rape if she didn't have a police report, then I believe it's self-evident. She could, as it is not required of her to immediately report the rape to the police.

[Stripe7]

It was not that long ago and is still the case in some parts of the US where the woman raped is treated as the guilty party. That is one big reason why a lot of rapes still do not get reported. There is also the case of statutory rape where even if the child is willing but she is underage. Some religious beliefs in the US allows for child brides and polygamy, both I believe are currently against US law.

All the restrictions in the US to a woman's choice in her own health makes me think that Michele Bachmann was looking in the wrong place for her Islamic influence on the US congress. It seems that the Taliban has made great inroads to the US Republican party.

[Nurizeko]

I came in expected an honest survey and found a thread of divisive American politics and general ignorance of the hard right.

My ignorance of this 'Rush Limberg' means I can't join in


And I was so ready to flout my intimate understanding of women's fun bits. :<

[Cable]

I share the same sentiment, Nuri. Gagged on my cup of tea at "women's fun bits", haha!

On a more related note, I like to think I know my fiancé - ahem - inside out?

[scoiatollo]

OMG, Cable you are so doomed, you have had premarriage sex?! God damn you, you are not allowed to have any fun before the wedding!

Also I am not sure how to react to this idiocy other than with sarcastic jokes about it, every other approach would mean I'd lose my last bit of respect I have for humanity.

[Starfisher]

Thought this was an onion article when I first saw it. Fucking life imitating art.

He made a statement that it's "really rare" for rape to cause pregnancy, citing a flatly non-existent female defense mechanism. There is no way to interpret that other than insane ignorance. No part of that conversation is about people lying to obtain abortions, it's about the ethical issue of when abortion is appropriate. Trying to parse "legitimate rape" out into "rape where the female isn't lying about wanting" makes no sense given the surrounding words, because it still implies that females get to choose when they get pregnancy using magic.

[LoCo]

Malachi: If a woman is going to claim that her baby is the result of a rape, then she will have to file a report with the police.

That brings with it a lot of baggage like an investigation and documents and signatures and suspects etc.

If a woman is trying to keep the fact that they got raped hidden, then she isn't going to go telling anyone that her baby is the result of rape now is she?

So... to recap... in order for her to claim her pregnancy is the result of rape, there has to be a rape claim. Otherwise she is saying that she is carrying a baby from her rapist without getting raped... which is just lunacy. If a doctor believes a woman has been raped, he will call the cops. That means a report.

So... no. No legal requirement to report a rape.

But there does need to be a rape reported for the woman to claim she is pregnant from a rape.

Any woman who claims she is pregnant through rape, must file a report about the rape. If she doesn't want to report it, then she can't claim to have been raped. Simply making the claim is reporting it. The only difference is that her words get taken down and she signs it.

More education, as usual, is important here. Being raped should not be a shaming offense. Rape victims have done nothing to shame themselves. If a woman is raped she should report it so we can get this filth off our streets. We need to teach women that they need to stand up for themselves. That they can stand up for themselves. That standing up for themselves is not shameful. That it is the right thing to do. Not just for them, but for the next potential victim.

But none of what you have said harms my argument. Unless you can explain how?

As for the duration of time before reporting... the longer a woman waits to report it, the harder it will be to prove. Again, education.

But you are speaking legally yeah? If it were only legal to have an abortion if you have been raped, then one would assume that legally a police report will have to be filled in before the abortion could proceed. Otherwise there is no proof, and legally there needs to be proof. So... what's your objection to my argument?

[Starblade]

The man clarifies his arguments.

PS: Representative Akin is on the United States House Committee on Science, Space and Technology.

[Mantaray]

abortion is fine.
if the condoms broke and the birth control pills failed. i would get an abortion.
if i was raped by a big gruff man in a dark alley and the after pill failed, i would get an abortion

i don't remember being born. i don't seem to recall feeling much. i think if i was aborted i'd be none the wiser.

[Akranadas]

PS: Representative Akin is on the United States House Committee on Science, Space and Technology.

How does a man who holds a Master of Divinity get put in charge of that?

[Langy]

Malachi: If a woman is going to claim that her baby is the result of a rape, then she will have to file a report with the police.

That brings with it a lot of baggage like an investigation and documents and signatures and suspects etc.

If a woman is trying to keep the fact that they got raped hidden, then she isn't going to go telling anyone that her baby is the result of rape now is she?

So... to recap... in order for her to claim her pregnancy is the result of rape, there has to be a rape claim. Otherwise she is saying that she is carrying a baby from her rapist without getting raped... which is just lunacy. If a doctor believes a woman has been raped, he will call the cops. That means a report.

The doctor might call the cops, but there is absolutely no requirement for the woman to cooperate with them. It is eminently possible for a woman to be raped, get pregnant from the rape, and tell an abortion clinic doctor about the rape without cooperating with the police. Further, I don't think doctors can legally tell the police if the patient specifically asks them not to do so. Thus, no rape must be reported to the police for a woman to claim she is pregnant from a rape.

More education, as usual, is important here. Being raped should not be a shaming offense. Rape victims have done nothing to shame themselves. If a woman is raped she should report it so we can get this filth off our streets. We need to teach women that they need to stand up for themselves. That they can stand up for themselves. That standing up for themselves is not shameful. That it is the right thing to do. Not just for them, but for the next potential victim.

That's not entirely true. Women can do things that put them more at danger of rape; for example, an underage girl could willingly have sex with someone else. That's still rape because underage girls aren't legally able to consent (statutory rape). Similarly, they might otherwise put themselves into a situation that they might feel shame about - such as a date rape situation. I can certainly understand why a woman would feel shame about that. Yeah, it sucks, and a woman who is just plain attacked out of nowhere shouldn't feel shame, but not all rapes are the same. Also, people feel shame about a lot of stuff. And finally, it isn't all about shame. Just delivering the rape report, not to mention dealing with the trial, can feel a lot like reliving the rape all over again.

But you are speaking legally yeah? If it were only legal to have an abortion if you have been raped, then one would assume that legally a police report will have to be filled in before the abortion could proceed. Otherwise there is no proof, and legally there needs to be proof. So... what's your objection to my argument?

Whoever said anything about proof? I see no reason that proof of a rape would be a requirement for an abortion, even if it's one of those 'you must be raped to get an abortion' places. Proving rape isn't always that easy, after all.

[Theophilis]

Ah ignorance, it fills the air. Oh yes, the topic itself.

A big part of that I think is the fact that a lot of people, men and women, are just uncomfortable with talking about the female anatomy. That lack of comfort leads to avoiding the subject, which leads to ignorance. I probably have a better understanding of female anatomy than my wife, and my medical knowledge comes from emt training and experience. Thats just an uncomfortable subject for her.

As for Akin's statement, you mean to say that a politician to something they heard from an "expert" that he may or may not have understood completely, if he was paying much attention at all, made his own conclusion of it and then made a statement that may or may not actually mean what the "expert" said. Wow, news at 11.

As for Akin's stance on abortions and rape. He obviously doesn't want to create a system that can be abused to kill human beings. For him human life begins at conception, rape or not. So to have an abortion is to kill a particularly innocent and vulnerable human being. If you had a sytem where rape victems were some of the only people that could get abortions then someone would claim to be raped just to get an abortion. This is human nature, someone will always try to exploit the system, in this case a system that ends in the loss of human life. Even now there are women who claim to have been raped when they haven't. This is a very small percentage of rape cases, expecially compared to the number of legitemate rapes that go unreported.

[Ramrod]

Master of Divinity

I could have sworn that was a videogame title.

As for women's biology, I've heard that they don't actually have bowel movements, and in the off-chance they ever do anything as unsophisticated as burp or fart, it doesn't stink like when we gross men do it.

[Theophilis]

i don't remember being born. i don't seem to recall feeling much. i think if i was aborted i'd be none the wiser.

And if you were violently murdered with polar bear, a week from then you'd be none the wiser, but does that make it any less wrong to use polar bears to murder people.

[GeoffS]

As for Akin's statement, you mean to say that a politician to something they heard from an "expert" that he may or may not have understood completely, if he was paying much attention at all, made his own conclusion of it and then made a statement that may or may not actually mean what the "expert" said. Wow, news at 11.

Umm, no, what he said was so ignorant and insensitive that he doesn't deserve to get away with claiming it as a simple misunderstanding or mis-speak. Nobody who is remotely worthy of holding political office would have made such a gross error of judgement. Politicians are supposed to be able to think quickly before they make public statements, it sort of is the whole minimum requirement for the job. By making such an idiotic statement he has effectively shown that he doesn't possess the skills necessary to be a political representative. At the very least, it should be the end of his political career.

He would have been more worthy of respect if he had simply said that he believes abortion is wrong even in the case of rape. He would still have been wrong, but at least he would have been consistent.

[Codex]

He made a statement that it's "really rare" for rape to cause pregnancy, citing a flatly non-existent female defense mechanism.

My first thought:

So if a man uses a condom, holds down a woman and has sex with her against her will, that's not rape? It's also "really rare" to conceive when a man is using protection.

[Stripe7]

That really rare is 1 in 20 rapes resulting in pregnancy.

[CommissarRezail]

Akins just like Turkey neck Rush, when it comes to women they just need to sit back and stare and say nothing. Unless Akins have been experimenting with the us female population and putting nano auto defense turrets into women bodies so when they get raped the turrets shoots down the sperm coming in, oh what am i saying this guy just dumb. There no excuse for him to think women can't get pregnant if being raped, semen goes and baby comes out, not much a woman can do unless she aborts it oh my. This what they call a catch 22?