HALF LIFE 3... wait, valve is doing hardware?

[roflmao]

Valve says it's jumping into the computer hardware business.

So, apparently, Valve has decided to jump into the hardware industry. But, they're neither entering the PC marketplace nor the console marketplace, or at least that's what they claim:

"even in basic input, the keyboard and mouse, haven't really changed much in any meaningful way over the years,"
"there's a real void in the marketplace, and opportunities to create compelling user experiences are being overlooked."

Pretty vague, not much information for the time being, but I guess this means they're going to try to innovate by creating new peripherals or something? Who knows.


First reaction: Where's HL3 you jerks.
Second reaction: This is kind of cool.
Third reaction: What are you actually going to do that interests me?

Discuss.

[Shuma]

Meh. Read about it a couple of days, doesn't sound interesting, it's not like we know what they're planning to do. But it sounds to me like they just want to do, i don't know, innovate mouse and keyboards in some way.

[Trizzdog]

Would be more interesting if the rumours weren't just possibly peripherals and hardware packaging.

[Misiok]

I'm waiting for Valve to get into Medical Research when they notice the big hole of dead consumers (because cancer) that can't use Steam.

[Paladin]

Not sure it's really a good time for a newcomer to enter the hardware market... I'm pretty sure the PC form factor is about to undergo a radical change.

[roflmao]

That's what I'm thinking Paladin. Things are going to change, somehow. No one knows exactly how but every console generation consoles just become more like PCs. There is *absolutely no way* the 720 and PS4 won't support a robust digital download service or the rising F2P model. With MMO's and F2P taking the scene, the former of which basically requires a keyboard right now, there's going to have to be some fusion of some kind.

Which is what Valve is trying to accomplish, I think.

If valve were to release a PC style gamebox with keyboard and mouse at console prices, I would be ecstatic.

[SpitfireMK461]

What advantage would Valve have from creating a console? PCs are their thing, always have been, it is working plenty well for them, and "innovation" isn't really defined as creating something like a PC but that can't do as many things.

As this GameSpy article expresses, I think Valve is working on something peripheral, perhaps something intended to change the mouse/keyboard setup.

@Paladin, what do you mean? I haven't heard anything about radical new PC designs. The most radical idea I've heard is dropping physical media, but I think that is still a ways off.

[Vintage]

@roflmao,

Why not just build a computer for the same price as a console? Whatever the next generation of consoles cost, you can build a PC for the same price but with greater power. Why have a PC style gamebox when you can just have a PC for the same price?

[Akranadas]

I wish we could ban this fucking vague topic posts, I shouldn't have to click the link to see what the hell you are talking about. A little insight would you know, help.


As for the actual topic. I think it's more relating to Valves plans to release Steam on Linux than them actually building a dedicated steambox and shipping it to customers. I can't see Valve entering the console market in any form, sure they've got steam to back them up but they don't have the piles of cash or the other primary incomes that Microsoft and Sony do. The most I could see is them designing a box that customers can build at home with a set amount of components to allow you to hook up to your TV and access steam.

They really should stop their venture into hardware and go to other avenues within the realms of software.

[Ammon Ra]

valve do have a point about keyboard and mouse having changed very little since their inception.

then again, key&mouse are adequate-to-perfect for office work, touch screens have taken over the mobile device market (tablets, hand-held consoles, phones,etc.) and are not particularly effective for traditional desktop work.

Nintendo has probably been the forerunner in pushing input devices successfully into new directions (motion control) while touchscreens have made portable/mobile devices easier to use. I would not want to play a game on my pc with either of those technologies.

Is it a case of attempting to re-invent the wheel or will valve actually produce a successor to the mouse & keyboard for pc games? (more importantly, will it still be functional for destop office work, as 'gamers' would need two sets of keyboard/mouse).

[Afoxi]

I'm not sure why this immediately sprang to mind.

[Paladin]

Spitfire: With the rise of tablets and smartphones, I'm predicting that the PC market is going to change drastically. Go into a place like Best Buy where you used to be able to get PC components, and see how 3/4 of what used to be the PC section of the store is now devoted entirely to tablets.

Looking at Motorola's webtop design, I'm predicting that the PC as we know it is going to go away, at least as far as the normal mass consumer market goes. You're going to be seeing PCs you carry in your pocket and then plug into a docking station to give you a desktop form factor, plug into a little notebook when you need a notebook, plug into your home theater system when you want to watch movies or listen to music, etc.

When you look at the rising horsepower of mobile processors, it's pretty clear that the average person could really get by with just that, and a bunch of peripherals that give it different functionality.

Just a matter of time IMO.

[ÜberJumper]

They'll be able to rapidly prototype all kinds of input devices with 3d printing technology. This'll be pretty cool.

Combine that with a touchscreen with the ability to change the shape of the touch screen surface, and you might be able to tweak the input device on the fly.

[roflmao]

Duly noted Akranadas, I added a bit more to the post, will add even more later. Cheers.

[Mantaray]

They'll be able to rapidly prototype all kinds of input devices with 3d printing technology. This'll be pretty cool.

funny you should mention that. im planning on getting myself a reprap this year, probably a Huxely
http://reprap.org/wiki/Huxley

gonna be making all kinds of random crap for my ebay store (also some personal tabletop wargaming stuff hurr hurr)

[Nalkor]

@Ammon Ra - The reason KB&M haven't changed much all since their inception is because aside from gaming mice (extra buttons on the side for MMos and such), they're pretty much perfect as is and it'd be akin to reinventing the wheel.

[Ammon Ra]

Yeah, that was what i was thinking too.

except that people thought that steam engines were the best of the best and anything else was silly. so will this be an evolution of k&m or a dead-end attempt to bring us waggle 3d controllers/mice with embedded touchscreens and vibration feedback.

[Cuddles]

Given that Windows 8 is being reported as all kinds of shit for PC gamers, is it any wonder Valve want to develop something that they can run their platform (Steam) on. They might release steam on Linux, but expecting users to shift from a pretty simplistic platform to one far more complex would be naive of them. Valve need to secure their future, to do that they need a reliable, accessable platform and its starting to look like Windows will no longer provide that.

[rowan sjet]

Given that Windows 8 is being reported as all kinds of shit for PC gamers, is it any wonder Valve want to develop something that they can run their platform (Steam) on.

Yeah, that's what immediately jumped to mind when I read this, especially given Newell's previously voiced thoughts on Windows 8.

[Rukoth]

I think they just need to pull their heads out of their butts and start giving everyone at least some indicator regarding HL3, its one of their biggest titles, I don't know why they are either being so secretive or taking so long to develop it. Why are they doing this whole thing? kind of a random direction. I guess thats what you get from a company of equal employees moving around in wheely desks working on random projects together.

[Dark_Axel]

@Ammon: Did you forgot about the Logitech iFeel mouse from 2001, using the minigun or plasma rifle with Unreal Tournament was a real pleasure with it's vibration feedback (didn't improve my aim though)

[Shuma]

I don't know why they are either being so secretive or taking so long to develop it.

Those hats aren't going to make themselves.

[Croaxleigh]

Given that Windows 8 is being reported as all kinds of shit for PC gamers, is it any wonder Valve want to develop something that they can run their platform (Steam) on. They might release steam on Linux, but expecting users to shift from a pretty simplistic platform to one far more complex would be naive of them. Valve need to secure their future, to do that they need a reliable, accessable platform and its starting to look like Windows will no longer provide that.

Oddly enough, I installed Steam in Windows 8 last night (was on my laptop instead of my desktop and used an Amazon gift certificate to buy a download code during the Amazon labor day sale; had to install Steam to add the game to my library.) Amazingly, installing Steam on Windows 8 didn't make my computer explode or delete all of the games from my library or make it do anything that it didn't do when I installed it in Windows 7. I was shocked and awed.

[Trizzdog]

Not to sidetrack the thread or anything, but could someone link some (good) articles about why Windows 8 sucks for PC gaming? I'm interested in reading up on this topic.

[TheDividedGod]

Yeah, all I've heard on that account is totally vague nonsense from various game developers, many of whom don't seem to know what they're talking about....I have been running the windows 8 consumer preview for several months now, installed plenty of games, new AND old (I must say, they've impressed me with the compatibility options, I've definitely got things running that I shouldn't be able to run) and I never use the touchscreen/mobile platform screen "metro" interface, I only ever use the desktop, and thus my experience is just like any other version of windows.

Gabe newell simply called it "a catastrophe" and made no attempt to explain why (also following up with comments about how the future is computerized wristbands and touchscreens are already on the way out....ummm, oooookay...)

Stardock CEO Brad Wardell wrote this article about three problems with windows 8 that show how little he understands of the OS...

Let's say you're on the desktop and you want to load up Mass Effect 3 or Microsoft Word. You are expected to move your mouse to the bottom left, wait for a tile to be displayed, click on the tile. That action whisks you away from the desktop to the Metro environment where you can then look for those programs.

The Windows 8 experience involves jumping back and forth between the tablet environment (Metro) and the desktop. They have nothing in common. Metro's task list won't list desktop apps and the desktop won't list recently active Metro apps. They're separate and yet you have to use both.

This is actually completely untrue, there is no need to move away from the desktop at any point - all games I've installed have of course asked me at the end of the installer if I want to put a shortcut on the desktop - I say yes, and then move the shortcut from the desktop into a folder on the desktop labelled "shortcuts", as I've been doing since windows 3.1. The icons are clearly displayed and, perhaps it just my version of the consumer preview, but there is an option to update both synchronously and I of course use it. Also, I've run tests with windows XP and windows 7 and the metro screen comes up at almost exactly the same speed as the old Start Bar, so I don't know what the issue is there. They just took the start bar and expanded the idea to become a touchscreen interface as well. Besides, any program I use frequently has a shortcut on the desktop or in my shortcuts folder, and any power user would probably say the same - why go through the start bar (or "metro" screen) at all when you can freely make shortcuts to any program you want and dump them right on the desktop for ease of access?

The other two "issues" are equally obsequious and equally reveal his lack of understanding of OPTIONS that you can CHANGE to WHATEVER YOU WANT. On a side note, the very first comment at the bottom of the article completely refutes his statements in better depth. Just check out the kotaku link I posted and scroll to the end of the article.

From another article:

"Rob Pardo, Executive Vice President of Game Design at the Irvine-based company, took to Twitter and chimed in on the matter, stating that Windows 8 is "not awesome for Blizzard either."

No reasons given, and none that I could find after searching either. Just more vague insubstantial drivel.


Windows 8 has been, in my experience (primarily as a gamer of course, but also as a serious sound engineer and recording artist) on a Toshiba laptop, an older pc, and a spanking new pc, both powerful and versatile, not to mention stable and VERY forgiving. These people (especially newell and wardell) literally don't understand what they are talking about - gamers, IMO, being relatively pc-savvy to begin with, have nothing to fear from this OS which is stupid simple to use (from the "metro" perspective) and just as powerful for powerusers as any other windows OS (from the traditional desktop perspective).

Seriously, check out the first comment at the end of the kotaku article - it really makes brad wardell look foolish, or at least, an amateur pc user who doesn't understand the oodles of customization and shortcut options available to him.

***

Sorry about the thread hijack. As far as valve making hardware....BAD idea. all it takes to ruin a company that is inexperienced in a certain market is one mistake. A single large investment in a different industry that tanks will subsequently affect the whole company, as well as their services. They're running game right now with steam, and things can only get better if they just stick to what they are good at. Risky ventures in different markets like this are a quick way to financial ruin, as we saw recently with THQ and the UDraw tablet disaster. Deals with manufacturers are good - Valve BRANDING on hardware is good, and also brings hardware experience into the company, which would THEN be a good stepping stone to getting into manufacturing. Jumping into the deep end with a vague press release? Not good.

[Trizzdog]

Thanks for the info TDG. Your post eloquently echos what some of my friends have said about Windows 8 against all the "omg dis suxz" I've been hearing about on the 'nets.

But yeah, I hope they don't go too willy nilly on new hardware. Valve could gain from diversifying their products, though. They just have to be conservative to start. Of course Valve could sustain a bigger financial loss if they risked it big due to infinite Steam sales and MOAR HATS, but there would be a noticeable effect on the company, and could cause a chain of events. I mean, what has Valve done as a developer recently? Not much. Wait, I'm wrong. See: hats.

[Ammon Ra]

bbc article

However, he added, the openness that helped Valve as well as firms such as Google and Zynga could disappear with Windows 8.

"There's a strong temptation to close the platform," he said, "because they look at what they can accomplish when they limit the competitors' access to the platform, and they say, 'That's really exciting.'"

This is seen by commentators to be a reference to the inclusion of a Windows Store in the Microsoft operating system.

This is a shop through which users will be able to buy apps for their Windows 8 device.

On versions of Windows 8 designed to run on ARM-based chips, it will be the only way to get downloadable software such as games.

Emphasis mine. I'm guessing that the underlined bit is part of the reason why valve & blizzard aren't keen on win8.

[Trizzdog]

Aren't systems designed to run on ARM-based chips... mobile devices? So people (IE Valve and Blizzard) aren't liking Windows 8 because Windows based mobile devices will have an exclusive app store like Apple & co. do? That doesn't make any sense.

[Croaxleigh]

It's not even all Windows-based mobile devices. ARM-based tablets will run a flavor of Windows known as Windows RT, which is essentially just the Start Screen (so it'll run Windows apps, but not desktop programs.) There are also tablets that will have Intel i-series processors that will run a full version of Windows 8, Desktop and all (essentially an ultrabook in the tablet form factor.) The Windows Store is present in both, but in RT it's the only way to add new programs. It's worth noting that the majority of apps that I've seen in the Windows Store are compatible with both ARM and Intel chips, so you can install them in either version of the new Windows; from what I understand it's a 1-time purchase thing, too, since any apps you buy will be tied to your Microsoft Account and you can reinstall them on other devices without having to repurchase.

Valve could port Steam Mobile to the Windows Store and have it available on any machine capable of running the new version of Windows, and anything running a full version of Windows 8 could install and run the full version of Steam as well. As far as that goes they could create beefier Steam app to take advantage of the fact that it could run on both ARM and Intel devices. Hell, if they really wanted to go the full monty then they could even produce a Steam-branded Intel tablet that was designed with gaming in mind and pair it with Bluetooth peripherals or something similar and have a product wholly unlike anything their competition is producing.

But yeah, Windows 8 is bad for Steam. (Hey, I tried to tie it in with the thread topic there at the end. )

[DeafMute]

For HL3, I think the general idea in the community is that Valve are fixing up Source 2.0 since its fairly obvious the current edition of source is really showing its age. Hardware wise, yeah I also think the KB+M combo works just fine as is but welcome any and all advancements Valve could bring together. As for windows 8, im still on Vista haha I should upgrade to Windows 7 really seeing as it will be only afew more years before the PC games being released probably wont have vista inmind as I saw Blops2 didnt have XP as an OS the other day. But yeah, Gabens a bro.

[Gorb]

XP differs on a number of grounds to Vista, I think. This is a supposition, but I'd imagine Vista support will continue for some time (considering how close to Win7 it is).

[Cuddles]

Croax, I never said steam wouldn't work on Windows 8

The issues is the direction Windows 8 is heading, which others have already highlighted. Valve need a reliable and unrestrictive platform to host Steam on.

[Ammon Ra]

For HL3, I think the general idea in the community is that Valve are fixing up Source 2.0 since its fairly obvious the current edition of source is really showing its age.

Valve have repeatedly said in many occasions that they do not do engine leaps like that. source has been incrementally upgraded over the years with the dota2/portal2 engines being the most sophisticated versions available, and then the alien swarm sdk.

Valve have also said in many occasions that they don't just add a technology for the visual effect of it, but if a certain gameplay moment requires it or could be enhanced by it. Its gameplay-driven engine updates, not a visual fidelity driven engine, unlike for example, cryengine or unreal udk 4.

lastly, there is no monolithic "current edition" of source. Each source game uses a unique version of source, except cs:s, tf2, & hl2dm, which use sourceMP. the version of source in dota2 is different to the version used in l4d1, l4d2, tf2, portal 1/2, etc. There is no singular latest version of source. each is tweaked to the needs of the specific game.

/end fanboi rant

hl3/ep3 is probably using its own iterative version of source of which the alien swarm sdk is derived from.

[Gorb]

Croax, I never said steam wouldn't work on Windows 8

The issues is the direction Windows 8 is heading, which others have already highlighted. Valve need a reliable and unrestrictive platform to host Steam on.

Steam, a restrictive gaming platform that locks games to that platform, that repeatedly goes down for maintenance (that isn't necessarily broadcast in advance) . . . needs a reliable and unrestrictive platform?

The irony, it abounds.

/devil's advocate - I like Steam and it's good to see such a difference of opinions in-thread.

[Cuddles]

Point Gorb

But I was talking form Valves point of view. Trying to run an online shop on a closed platform OS that comes pre-packaged with an online shop.. I do wonder if Microsoft will be forced to provide a range of alternatives to their Online store. A bit like they do with Internet Explorer on a fresh install, you start it and then it asks you if you'd prefer to use Firefox, Opera, etc..

[Gorb]

The problem with thinking from Valve's point of view is we don't really know their point of view.

Is it make hats? Is it make HL3? Is it, heaven forbiden, make money? Sensibly, I'm sure they plan to make money and hats, but how they aim to do it is anybody's guess.

For example, there was no need to rail out against Windows 8 - that smacks of PR spin, which is something I thought Valve were far above stooping to. Apple and Windows are the two main OSs available and are both "closed platform". I'd argue Apple is harder to develop for but that's only because I dislike both what they do to their App Store and because I hate the language that is apparently used to develop MacOS for no good reason (it looks really, really, bad).

[Paladin]

As for windows 8, im still on Vista haha I should upgrade to Windows 7 really seeing as it will be only afew more years before the PC games being released probably wont have vista inmind as I saw Blops2 didnt have XP as an OS the other day

Do yourself a favor and get the x64 version of whatever you upgrade to. The day is coming very soon when you're going to see games shipping with no x32 version (I'm honestly surprised it's not already happening).

[FriendlyFire]

It's not already happening because XP is still dragging everyone back. Please don't mention XP x64.

[Croaxleigh]

Croax, I never said steam wouldn't work on Windows 8

The issues is the direction Windows 8 is heading, which others have already highlighted. Valve need a reliable and unrestrictive platform to host Steam on.

That's just it... there are no restrictions whatsoever in running Steam in Windows 8. As far as desktop software goes, Windows 8 is basically as restrictive as Windows 7 but has the Start Menu on its own page instead of popping up over the Desktop itself. You can already install Windows 8-optimized versions of Firefox and Chrome, and if you set them as your default browser then they'll feature a Modern UI variant as well (aka, a Start Screen app.) On the non-RT version of Windows 8, there is nothing that makes you use the Windows Store if you don't want to; you don't even have to use a Microsoft Account (which is required to log in to the Store anyway) and can install any program that you could install in Windows 7 and have it run exactly the same way.

There are restrictions in Windows RT, but unless you can run a full version of Steam on iOS or other mobile platforms then there's no difference in that restriction and what Valve currently encounters in the mobile market. Even then, it would take very little for Valve to make a Steam Mobile app that was compatible with both ARM devices and the Modern UI interface on Windows 8 (allowing people to make purchases without having to open Steam or on computers where Steam isn't installed, and providing access to account settings and community features without the need to navigate the main Steam interface.)

[ÜberJumper]

Some reference links:

Windows 8 is not good for gamers From Kotaku (parent company Gawker Media) - From a usability perspective.

You’re Being Lied To: Windows 8 Isn’t Bad for Gaming From Gizmodo (parent company Gawker Media). - Comes at it from a business perspective and gives some insight into why some publishers/digital sales providers are concerned.

[Shuma]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/09/...ture-test-date

There you go. Hardware.

[Croaxleigh]

When I saw that picture, the first thing that popped into my head was:

"And we can make everything red, and call it the Virtual Boy!"
"I'm pretty sure that name's already taken, Gabe."

[Cuddles]

As for The Big Picture, is this simply an upgrade for steam so users can use their PC or laptop plugged in to their 40 inch Tv? If so it seems a bit pointless, most game already support a resolution perfectly suitable for a large Tv and I have played plenty enough on mine. Or is it a box you plug into your Tv so you can play your steam games without having to mess around with moving your PC and cables?

[Nurizeko]

I am confused as to why the OS for a PC needs to look and act like the OS for a smartphone/tablet device?

Crucial difference between making communication between platforms easier and making the huge mistake of thinking that the platform devices are that similar.

[Nalkor]

When was Episode 2 released? I'm curious because at this rate, Heart of the Swarm will come out before the next Half-life installment.

[Ira Aduro]

@Nuri - So on OSX (BOOO HISSS) Apple has done what I consider a fantastic job melding aspects of iOS into OSX. I don't use a mouse anymore, I use the ridiculously huge trackpad you can buy and the reason for that is the OS is much more useable with gestures. You four finger swipe between spaces, you do finger tap to right click, you can pinch, zoom, scroll, all with much more ease than using a mouse. Now, apple hasn't taken it as far as it seems microsoft has, not yet at least. I think microsoft kind of went too far.

[Croaxleigh]

Nuri: It's also the interface used on the Xbox 360, or a version of it anyway. As far as the core of the OS goes, it still functions largely like Windows 7. The big difference (not the only difference, but the one that most people focus on) is that the Start Menu is now fullscreen and features the Windows Phone/Xbox 360 interface and has dedicated apps that can run in it. The Desktop still works like it did in Windows 7, Vista, XP, etc. There are even a number of mods that put the Start Button back in place and restore the old Start Menu so people can use the OS in Desktop mode only (though it does require a 3rd-party download.)

On my laptop (which I'm using as my Windows 8 testbed) I even took things a step further and installed ObjectDock to get rid of the Taskbar as well; I've got a few little docks that pop up in different parts of the screen as I need them, but otherwise I've got a fullscreen Desktop and a fullscreen Start Screen. It works surprisingly well, and to be honest it's a bit weird now when I get back on my desktop computer and have a Taskbar and a Start Button.

(And yes, I use a mouse and keyboard for everything... though up until recently I didn't have a mouse for my laptop and just used the little touchpad thing under the keyboard. The mouse works much better in Windows 8, though even the touchpad was perfectly usable.)

[Nurizeko]

Croaxleigh, Only problem is if I'm having to mod my OS to function the way I think it should than it has utterly failed in its job of being a 'better' OS interface.


Fundamentally changing the layout is just a poor and risky decision. Since we're talking about the start button, it has been in that bottom corner since forever. It works. What is the logic of changing it?

Because it's not 'hip' enough? Nonsense. Windows isn't a fashion accessory it' an OS, leave pointless design concepts to Apple and their techno style accessories.

[Croaxleigh]

Technically, there's still a Start Button in the corner. Now it just auto-hides, and has its own context menu with quick access to the Control Panel, Command Prompt, etc. if you right-click it. As far as the Start Screen itself, at first I was like "What the Hell?" but now I like it better than the Windows 7 Start Menu. You can organize the programs that you use on the Start Screen, remove the boxes for those that you only use infrequently, and find any program or app by typing its name (similar to the search box in the Windows 7 Start Menu, but significantly faster in my experience.)

That said, it's certainly not for everybody. It's the first significant interface change since Windows 95, and I imagine that some people will skip it entirely and wait for Windows 9 (which according to rumor is shooting for a 2015/2016 release window) though it's unlikely that the new interface will go anywhere. More likely it'll be refined, since it seems like every Windows release that incorporates change is followed by another release that just tries to make that change a bit easier on the user.