Well, you add two homeworld 1's together to get homeworld 2 :P
seriously though, resource collector granulation, fighter craft/corvette squadrons were all added on HW2. along with warp-in shipyards and one-at-a-time production.
Well, you add two homeworld 1's together to get homeworld 2 :P
seriously though, resource collector granulation, fighter craft/corvette squadrons were all added on HW2. along with warp-in shipyards and one-at-a-time production.
I'll give it a shot.
In HW1 you have two races, Kushan and Taiidan. They mostly use the same ships (different models and weapon hardpoints, but are the same role) with a few uniques. They both again have mostly the same tech tree for research. In HW1 fighters and corvettes (the two smallest classes) use fuel to travel. They can refuel on certain ships like support frigates, carriers, and the mothership. Fighters can also refuel on a specific corvette class ship (this one doesn't use fuel to travel). Each type of ship can be built simultaneously from a single mothership or carrier. ie, you can build fighters and bombers at the same time. Or multiple types of frigates at the same time.
In HW2, there are again two races. The Hiigarans are the most similar to the HW1 races (they're based on the Kushan race design wise). The Hiigarans are mostly frigate and capital ship focused. The other race is the Vaygr, which is mostly fighter and corvette focused. This time around both races are almost completely unique in terms of combat ships. They both have different tech trees. Fuel is no longer a mechanic and fighters/corvettes are now built as squadrons. If any ship in the squadron is alive the whole squadron can be rebuilt by docking at a mothership/carrier for free. Ships are now built by class (Fighter, Corvette, Frigate, Capital Ship). To reuse my previous example, you can only build one type of frigate at a time per mothership/carrier. But you can still build a fighter and a frigate at the same time. Also Battlecruisers can now only be built after building a separate shipyard (basically a larger version of the mothership).
One notable difference also is the way you can capture enemy ships in both games. In HW1 you build Salvage Corvettes which grab on to the ship, disable it and carry it back to the mothership to be converted to your team. In HW2 you build Marine Frigates which attach to the hull of enemy ships frigate and up. They will try to capture it during the fight itself. The more frigates attached the faster the bar fills up. If they succeed then it's converted to your side at it's current location. In practice though, salvage corvettes are significantly more effective at capturing ships. Also worth noting that in HW1 by capturing ships you could go over the unit limit basically as much as you want. In HW2 you can't go over the limit by capturing ships.
Pretty sure that's most of it. I'm sure someone will yell at me if I've missed anything obvious.
Xbox Live/GFWL/Relic Online/Steam: Saberdark
It'd be kinda cool if fuel was a toggle you could enable for skirmishes and which would apply to all factions, same for building multiple things at the same time. I also wonder how they'll handle HW1's research ships. I fully expect fighters to always be in squadrons though as that's just a lot easier to manage and lets you make bigger fleets.
Mandead In one you have an apple in the other you have an orange. They are both fruit
Oranges are not the only fruit.
Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were just exchanging fruit-based platitudes. It certainly didn't answer my question.
At the very least HomeWorld 1 & 2 re-mastered got everybody's attention, at the very least those of us that played the game will be released in beta in Feb. This is going to be interesting considering the Modeler's out in the field once they they get their hands on the final product. It is going to be on Steam as stated on Gearbox's forum. After a long pause this just might bring peeps back.
Katha secret of immortality is to be found in purification of the heart, in meditation, in realization of the identity of the Self within and Brahman without. For immortality is simply union with God
I wonder how the Garden of Kadesh missions will play out with the possible exclusion of fuel. Fuel usage was a weakness for the Kadesh fighters since they burned (and probably spilled) fuel at a rapid rate and required rapid refueling with their support ships.
Doesn't seem like the old factions will have squadrons. They didn't have them in the IGN video linked before when they showed off the Taiidan for a bit. Not necessarily final of course, they apparently weren't ready to show them off. Still, I think if they forced squadrons certain sections of the fanbase will riot. Even if they are much easier to use both ways have their advantages.
mandead, did you miss my post? Pretty much covers everything.
While it was much more user friendly with squadrons you can't do all the fun things you could do in HW1 like giant battle balls of scouts/defenders or huge claw formations of bombers. Removing that would remove part of the reason for having the old factions in the game in the first place.
Yeah, I read it, thanks. Much appreciated.
If there is a fuel toggle it would be interesting to play Kadesh with it off. The fighters never felt that scary to me because I could burn the Fuel Pods off with my capital ships way before they did any serious damage. Having to actually go after them when they're buzzing around and dangerous would be interesting. Especially if they adapt the AI to target salvage corvettes so you can't just steal the MBFs and the Garden of Kadesh missions are suddenly way harder.
HW2 made changes to certain things that weren't really needed.
Squadrons were an unnecessary addition. They could have just been a formation type, instead it removed an element of micromanagement that meant the game lost a bit of depth.
I wasn't a fan of subsystems either. On paper they sounded neat: you could be like a starship captain and order your ships to target weapons and engines! Except they tended to be such small targets that when you had capital ships attacking they could barely hit and would instead do direct hull damage. Ships would also attack them from the other side and again just hit the hull. The only use I ever found was a sneaky bomber attack against a mothership or shipyard.
HW2's story was great though!
In Homeworld 2 I Found that subsystems was a neat idea but not really practical. You could strike at them, but it just wasn't practical to make surgical strikes to take out key systems and then retreat as they'd be repaired up pretty quick. Also during battle because of how ships are taking the whole thing out at once was basically the most effective approach. I tended to only ever hit engines sometimes to stop a larger ship moving around ;but that was about it.
I think it was a neat idea, just not suited to the style of combat that Homeworld 1 and 2 really focus on (whilst in a game like Nexus Jupiter Incident its all about targeting subsytems).
I think I used bomber groups on several occasions to take out the engines on Vaygr BS so it couldn't bring its trinity cannon to bear, and likewise, I used bombers on Hiig BS to kill the ion turrets. Kept my heavy ships in the game longer
Yeah it's a nice concept when it works, but how much micro did it require to ensure the bombers attacked from the correct direction initially? And then as soon as they made a pass they were in the wrong location to hit it properly for the next run.
Formations are a good example of sacrificing "depth" when in fact all it does is remove unnecessary actions per minute, or rather it doesn't impact the level of "meaningful" actions per minute. The same argument can be made for squad-based gameplay vs. single entity units, but this also depends on the intentional design of the game at large (as supposed to older games where it was a purely mechanical limit).
I am an Iron Warrior. Iron Within, Iron Without.
If commanded to attack a subsection, bombers tend to just swarm that subsection (just had my brother test it)
Am I the only one who wants the collectors in HW1 to work the same way in HW1 remastered? I was a little disappointed that they worked like the HW2 collectors however I understand that from a multiplayer perspective it wouldn't work but a least for the campaign their could have be exceptions made to keep the original feel and game mechanics.
I'm am modder not much else to say, You can contact me through Moddb (Rapid107) through Tanis or the GearBox official Homeworld forums.
I wonder if we can't have a Remastered Traditional version? No changes to the core gameplay for singleplayer just the upgrade in visuals only? It sounds messy to have a remastered version with different gameplay (I can accept interface changes only because homeworld really had almost no interface - HS2 brought more with it; but the original was very interface free)
It kind of looked like they were trying to get them to at least look a bit more like how the collectors worked in HW1, but had the beam location in the wrong spot. It might be a limitation of how they uplifted HW1 to enhance the graphical fidelity. That demo was also done on a pre release version as well, maybe they'll figure something out before launch
It's in beta form so don't you think with all the feed back some improvements will be addressed? At the very least no matter how you look at it especially without the game in hand, no one knows exactly what will be done, that said, I look forward to seeing you all in the game or not hehe.
mandead - original HW1/HW2 differences:
HW1: strikecraft used and could run out of fuel, ships could be assigned wall/sphere/claw/etc formations (ion frigate ball o' doom ftw), research and shipbuilding were fairly centralized, not counter-heavy gameplay (IMO)
HW2: no fuel, no formations outside of some general stuff to keep your fleet together when moving, reseearch and shipbuilding modules appear on damn near everything, extremely counter-heavy gameplay (frigates became absolute popcorn for fighter craft)
During the demo, I did see the blue fuel bar on appropriate HW1 ships, very briefly. As it was explained to me, the unified engine approach suggests you will be able to make HW2 ships use fuel with some modding work.
Edit: shiza forgot there was a page of responses I hadn't read yet.
Edit edit: squadrons can burn in a fire. Sphere formation rules.
Mandead i mostly said what i said as a joke.
On the subject of squadrons: they were a good idea on paper but they were just completely lifeless when it came to implementation. they just had no good AI to work with. eventually relic shored that up with COH but it in HW2 they did nothing but be bullet sponges.
Hopefully the Remastered games include that.
Also: Subsystems and targeting of such is cool, and I hope the Remastered games keep that but make it less micro-heavy (ie making people who are supposed to be targeting a subsystem actually approach from the correct direction to get LOS on said subsystem).
The way I see it, subsystem targeting seemed by and large designed to keep bombers relevant in the late game. While you'd need absolute swarms of them to deal with the supercapitals if all you did was target the hull, a few bomber squadrons could disable a key subsystem before the full fleet hypered in. You could also destroy construction subsystems to for instance delay BCs.
Also the salvage aspect brings some interesting tactics to the game much like in HW 1, the more you stole......and formation do have a place in the game, it depends on how they are used, based on your skill level.
From what everything that I have seen and read on the Homeworld Remastered Collection. It sounds like they just super-upgraded the HW2 engine & UI, ported the multiplayer backend to Steam, and then just re-created all the assets for HW and HW2. Now I don't have a problem with that so long as they keep the same gameplay mechanics that was unique to each game like many have already mentioned; fuel, salvaging, simultaneous build queue, formations, and what ever else made HW1 vastly superior over HW2.
I just hope that they fixed a lot of the goofy things that were bad about HW2 and bring it more inline with what HW1 had.
With mod support and combined race multiplayer available right out of the gate I am very impressed to see what the mod community will be able to do with fully-functional and developer level tools available (WE LOVE YOU DELPHY).
Honestly, I could take or leave HW1 factions facing HW2 factions. They're two different games built on two different principals. HW1 was more like chess in that there wasn't a substantive difference between them and a Kushan Heavy Corvette was essentially the same as the Taiidan one (and they cost the same). Yes, there were the faction-specific craft but they were fringe units (save for the DF Frigate which was vastly superior to the Drone Frigate, but cloaked fighters were pretty cool, but I digress). There was little to balance because everyone had essentially the same units: the creativity came in getting those units at certain tactically advantageous times and/or combining arms. TLR, no one had an advantage because their faction had the "better" units.
HW2 moved away from that in a big way and I think was lesser for it. I felt more like a fleet commander in HW1 but in HW2, I was playing an arcade game of rock/paper/scissors. There were obvious of jack-of-all-trades ships in the Hiigaran navy (I'm looking at you Pulsar Corvette, Missile Frigate, and Destroyer) and the Vaygr faction made you go all-or-none with which path you wanted go (strike craft, frigates, capitals, etc.). Hell, I liked the Beast faction in Cataclysm way more than the Vaygr. But ultimately, capital ships destroyed everything and were so laughably more powerful than frigates that the "basic" ships never felt like they had a chance past a certain point. I never really felt that way about HW1 ships.
Other HW2 changes that made little/no sense to me were the hyperspace jumps, power of frigates, and the shipyard. Capital ships had to have a hyperspace subsystem attached (or within a hyperspace module sphere of influence) to make jumps when in HW, all frigates or above could jump if you had the resources. Vaygr had hyperspace gates that were cool in theory but I didn't feel they worked all too well in practice. Frigates in HW2 never were the "middle-ground" between true capital ships and strike craft (though they were in HW1). Frigates were vulnerable to just about everything in HW2 and didn't have the hitpoints or firepower to engage much of anything beyond basic units. The Devs used to explain this by saying "but they cost only marginally more than a fighter squadron!" but that wasn't helpful. They were more vulnerable than a fighter squadron. I would have preferred more expensive frigates that had more firepower/durability. Then there is the shipyard. It was a better Mothership and I never understood its place in the game. Yes, it was slower and slightly easier to kill but the Mothership was never supposed to be all that mobile anyway. Maybe if the Mothership had super-weapons or other utility that the shipyard didn't have, I could see the shipyard being a better manufacturing vessel but that wasn't the case. The shipyard had more module slots (you could literally put everything on it), could build battlecruisers, and was replaceable. Why even have a Mothership when the shipyard was better in virtually every way?
At any rate, I'm looking forward to HW1 gameplay much more than HW2 and I'm hoping it doesn't get tinkered with too much.
I was wondering how long it'd take for the HW2 bashing to commence. Three pages it seems.
I probably missed the memo.
Did Gearbawkes alter HW1 Mothership to free move alike HWC/HW2?
Didn't watch the vids. Don't want to get spoiled by all the stuuuuuff.
In HSW1 MP, Motherships could move around. It was only in SP that they cannot move. sm
I for one am overjoyed we have so many new things to complain about. For so many years I thought we'd never get a new Homeworld to nit pick! What a wonderful time to be alive.
(RIP Cute smiley face I don't remember how to make you.)
Since I am tired of putting out hundreds of fires piece meal I have decided to consolidate things.
1. Where is Cataclysm!!!!!!!
a. The Big problem arises from the Barking Dog sale. At some stage during the folding and mergers between BD, Rockstar Vancouver and Rockstar propper the source code to HW:C was lost. How it was lost is uncertain. Either mechanical failure of the drives without back ups, drivers were lost, or wiped are all possible. My instinct tells me they were wiped. HDD space was a big premium back in 2000, especially for small companies and the mergers wouldn’t help matters. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news...he-Source-Code
2. What the Hell is this Combined Multiplayer! I only want to play Classic version of X!
a. Cool down. As seen from this screenshot of the PAX footage:
c. Under options we have a game mode selector. This is going to give us at a minimum 3 options: Homeworld 1Classic Rule Set, Homeworld 2, Classic Rule Set, Homeworld Remastered Brawl Rule set. This brawl rule set is the one that will have battles between all 4 races. Meanwhile no matter the mode we share a lobby together, hugs anyone? Confirmed by Dev Here: http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...0&postcount=27
3. Will the preserved versions have Multiplayer Support.
a. Unknown at this time but I would speculate the old LAN code to still be active
4. Amazon is showing a Ship Date in 2016 for my Collector’s Edition! WHYYYYY!!!!!
a. Amazon is still updating their systems. Amazon policy is if you use prime 2 or 2 day and above you will get it on release day. Any slower shipping speeds and it is a gamble on that but should be no more than a week delay. If you want it for release day You have plenty of time to upgrade your shipping option. Also Amazon does not charge money on preorders until they are shipped.
5. What about mod tools?
a. GBX is Very Enthusiastic about mod Support however mod tools will not be available on release because the tools are not finalized.
6. Where can I see gameplay footage?
a. IGN seems to got exclusivity over the PAX South game demo here:
b. IGN Also has footage of the entire panel here:
7. I want to order the Collector’s Edition but I live in country X!
a. At the time of writing the only place with any CE stock left is Amazon.co.uk. in there, there is USK and PEGI versions that can be shipped outside the United Kingdom.
8. Can you please make more CEs?
a. GBX has repeatedly said that they are a one off and grossly underestimated demand. Oh well. Considering it took the US version 6 months to sell out I think the amount they made was a good call.
9. Is there a difference between the CE artbook and the Hardcover one announced at PAX South?
a. Updated: 1/28/2015 CE is a small paper back novel type format. Hardcover one abot the size of a coffee table book
10. The Voices Sound Different what’s up with that?
a. GBX has gotten the original cast to rerecord their lines as the original masters were not up to snuff. However there are two known exception and the first is the late Campbell Lane who voiced the Bentusi/Narrator. May he Rest in Peace. The second is the person who voiced Karen in HW2 is not returning but Heidi from HW 1 is.
11. Who is handling the voice and audio remasters?
a. Who else but Paul Ruskay?
12. Are Homeworld 1 Fighters going to be Squadrons? I do not want squadrons in my HW 1 game!
a. No official statement yet but the IGN footage of Kadesh indicate strongly that in singleplayer at the least hw 1 strike craft do not use squadrons.
13. Are there physical CDs.
a. No everything is to be redeemed via Steam Code
14. Will there be Fuel?
a. Ambiguous at this time
15. I have all these mods from the old days. Will they Still work
a. Most likely not with the remastered copies. The mod creators or you will need to update the mods to be compatible. As for the classic versions it may be hit and miss since they are getting bug updates and balance tweaks.
b. Additional Dev Comment:
"However, Legacy Mod support is _not_ going to happen 'as-is'. If you just throw an old Mod at HW:RM - it'll probably fail to run. The assets and format have changed, how materials/textures/shaders work has changed - and units/logic have been given love too. That said, almost anyone that did Mods will find the changes quick to adjust - and I am probably going to write a HW1/2->HW:RM asset updater. Though, the 'old' assets lack the needed textures (normals, reflection, gloss maps, etc) - so old stuff updated will look pretty flat without love. "
16. I saw the HW1 resource collector latching NOOOOO. I want my PDA's.
a. while PDAs will have a place in our hearts GBX couldn't get them to work in the hw2.5 engine without breaking resourcing completely. thus they decided to make sure you had a working resourcing system
17. Will "Homeworld" by Yes still be in the end credits?
a. Unknown at this time. GBX is really hard to get a comment out on possible licensing issues.
18. I saw Lotion Blur and DoF effects can they be turned off?
a. Yes! there appears to be an exhaustive video options menu:
Please see pax gameplay capture for options menu
19. will resources auto harvest at end of mission.
a. largely unknown right now. however the pax panel showed some time compression. this may be dev use only though.
20.Why can't I play the classics now?! they were done 15 years ago!?
a. No they are not done and classic does not mean verbatim original. the classics had a host of bugs, balance and compatibility problems. this has resulted a revisit on their source code and game files. thus it needs to go through QA again. This is a not a straight ISO rip of the original cds. What is being shipped is Homeworld 1 version 1.6 and HW2 1.2. Second answer is they are being sold as a bundle and you can not unlock 1 part of the bundle without unlocking the whole thing
If I have missed anything let me know.
Last edited by ORCACommander; 10th Feb 15 at 10:33 AM. Reason: added article 20
Thanks for the answers, Orca. Plenty there I wasn't even wondering about!
I've taken my signature back!!!
... but I've got no idea what to put here now...
Exactly! I've been spending most of my free time since the weekend in #art nitpicking every change and gushing over the unsurpassed artistic genius of the one, the only original Homeworld. I feel amused, excited. Inspired! I haven't felt so alive in a while.I for one am overjoyed we have so many new things to complain about. For so many years I thought we'd never get a new Homeworld to nit pick! What a wonderful time to be alive.
Seriously though there is already a lot I disagree with, but there are clearly a lot of good things coming out of the remaster. Really looking forward to getting my hand on it and give the remodeled Toaster a spin.
I think most of all though I'm looking forward to hearing the impressions of the people who've never played any HW before. I hope some of them fall in love with Homeworld the way I did 15 years ago. I hope I can relive a little of that feeling when I make my way through the campaigns again and hit it off in MP.
Nova I take praise in the form of non sequential 100 dollar bills sent to this anonymous swiss bank account: :P
Orca - I asked em at PAX, and saw the art book in the collector's edition when it was on stage - collector's edition art book is small, novel-sized-ish, the Art Book they announced they said was gonna be a big coffee table style book.
Also, re: Lane (RIP), they said they got one of his students (mentees?) who does a spot-on match for his voice. They seemed excited, I am excited.
Well, looks like I'm going to have a new coffee table art book to complement my Mass Effect art book!
Thank you sastrei. Now where is that blood bank. I need to inquire with a man about a certain kidney
The jump from HW classic to remastered is amazing. The garden looks amazing, I shall look forward to being absolutely destroyed by the Kadeshi again in that level! I hope I can keep enough cash aside for my collectors preorder since the game release falls on pay day. :/
Hyperspace Arena, Hyperspace Arena, Hyperspace Arena, Hyperspace arena... *Nuri goes on like this for an indeterminate amount of time.*
Thanks a lot for this Orca, I particularly like the ruleset thing. It seems to be the best way around enabling both HW1 and HW2 gameplay mechanics so that both purists and newcomers are happy.
@Sastrei: You just made me an awful lot less bummed about not having bought the CE. I'd have gone for the CE pretty much entirely for the art book, the miniature doesn't really interest me.
Sad to hear they couldn't get everyone back and that the master where not good enough . That said hopefully they've found replacements upto snuff.
Also i'm gonna pitch in on the whole debate and say that mechanically HW1 was utter garbage. There's was very little redeeming about it in comparison to Cata or HW2. Both of the latter take HW 1 and give it the much needed slap up the back of the head it desperately needed. HW1 had so many unit types that where useless or highly marginalized it just wasn't funny, and whilst fuel and formations with strikecrafts sounds cool, they rarely brought anything meaningful to the gameplay, (formations with bigger craft are another matter however). By freeing up frigates from fuel duty they where able to push frigate importance much more thoroughly and the lack of rigid formations freed strikcraft to act like the small zippy things they where. The addition of squadrons greatly improved ease of use as well.
That said HW2 was a long way from perfect, the Gunship corvette had a major AI flaw which resulted in the Higarrians generally not having cost effect strikecraft vs strikecraft solutions, and an outright hardpoint, (the hardpoint file is the file which determines where subsystems go, where weapons positions are, e.t.c.), bug, meant it suffered under half the rate of fire it should rendering it fairly ineffective in the counter strikecraft role, (forcing the vaygr into a strikcraft heavy setup). Capital ship where also far too cost effective and where saved from being complete game breakers only by the fact that equally badly under-powered turrets and weak resource collector armour made a quick resourcer rush kill strategy so effective games rarely ran long enough for it to become a major issue, (you just didn't build and use them enough to see the advantage).
Basically both had issues. But HW1 suffered from just being saddled with for worse internal balance issues on top of some basic raw external balance issues. HW2's where almost all internal and where limited to a handful of units, those units just happened to be positioned to really distort things. TDLR to turn HW1 into an actual decent game, (as apposed to an awesome story), i'd petty much need to start from scratch. To turn HW2 into a decent game i'd just need to fiddle with a few units.
I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.
Thousands of years ago, Egyptians worshipped what would become our ordinary housecat. The cats have never forgotten this.
I am actually not going to moan about the game but the CE eddition, I bought it to make sure this venture turns a profit, and the statue is cool, but there is no physical game there, it seems very light on content. The full sized artbook and OST would have been a minimum for the £100 quid for me to be a happy bunny. Fuck it just charge me 10 quid more for the coffee table art book, but it's going to be stupid owning two!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)