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Homeworld Remastered Information, Release 25/02/2015.

  1. Gamers Lounge Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #151
    Legendary JAL-18's Avatar
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    Also i'm gonna pitch in on the whole debate and say that mechanically HW1 was utter garbage. There's was very little redeeming about it in comparison to Cata or HW2. Both of the latter take HW 1 and give it the much needed slap up the back of the head it desperately needed. HW1 had so many unit types that where useless or highly marginalized it just wasn't funny, and whilst fuel and formations with strikecrafts sounds cool, they rarely brought anything meaningful to the gameplay, (formations with bigger craft are another matter however). By freeing up frigates from fuel duty they where able to push frigate importance much more thoroughly and the lack of rigid formations freed strikcraft to act like the small zippy things they where. The addition of squadrons greatly improved ease of use as well.
    I've seen a couple of comments talking about how unbalanced Homeworld 1 was but I don't recall it being that bad. I don't think saying most or even a large percentage of units were too specialized - going through the unit list, scouts, ints, defenders and bombers were all commonly used, corvette walls had lights, heavies, and multies, all the frigate types were used, and all the capital ships were used. The race-specific ships I remember Taiidan being used more than Kushan. That leaves minelayers, and the utility ships at the bottom of the build manager, which, granted, where less commonly used and more specialized - but the same can be said of HW2 minelayers and utility ships. I have no idea what you mean by "freeing frigates up from fuel duty" as frigates have never required fuel. I would actually argue frigates were more useful in HW1 due to increased survivability, firepower, hyperspace independence, and the ability to execute meaningful combat maneuvers (in the Homeworld archives somewhere there is a great thread debating the relative strengths of ion frigates versus assault frigates - ICFs obviously had more direct firepower but microed AFs could stay on their flanks out of the ion's firing arc)

  2. #152
    I actually liked the HW1 balance better than the Cataclysm/HW2 balance. HW1 you actually needed a decent mix of everything. Cataclysm had superweapon idiocy (Beast infection ray/Particle Cannon) and HW2 had platform stupidity. Also, I felt the removal of fuel from HW2 and the Vaygr Carriers having only one production slot also threw wrenches into the metagame.

    The only thing I could criticise HW1 about is that the two main factions were essentially carbon copies of eachother, with only very minor differences between them. Also, if you played without unit caps, you were pretty much forced to forgo strike craft once the gravwells started coming out.
    Last edited by Nanaki; 29th Jan 15 at 2:16 PM.

  3. #153
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    I've seen a couple of comments talking about how unbalanced Homeworld 1 was but I don't recall it being that bad. I don't think saying most or even a large percentage of units were too specialized - going through the unit list, scouts, ints, defenders and bombers were all commonly used, corvette walls had lights, heavies, and multies, all the frigate types were used, and all the capital ships were used. The race-specific ships I remember Taiidan being used more than Kushan. That leaves minelayers, and the utility ships at the bottom of the build manager, which, granted, where less commonly used and more specialized - but the same can be said of HW2 minelayers and utility ships. I have no idea what you mean by "freeing frigates up from fuel duty" as frigates have never required fuel. I would actually argue frigates were more useful in HW1 due to increased survivability, firepower, hyperspace independence, and the ability to execute meaningful combat maneuvers
    It's been a while and i doubt the threads are still there after all this time but when i first got HW1 i had a lot of issues with both the campaign and skirmish and all the advice boiled down to:
    Don't build anything but scouts and Heavy Corvettes, (substitute light for heavy in early campaign), because whilst a multi-gun could for example do much better vs strickcraft, especially fighters, it was so much weaker in every other respect that heavy corvettes where much more cost effective. Similar thing with fighters micro tricks and evasive orders in combination made scouts just flat out better than bombers and fighters because they where far less vulnerable to corvettes and assault frigates. In fact i was basically told that assuming you had enough support frigs to keep them fueled nothing less than a missile destroyer would be able to beat it.

    That's not to say that nothing else was used, but the missile destroyer was the sole reason anything that wasn't a support frigate a scout or a heavy corvette mattered.

    TDLR i'm not saying that other stuff wasn't useful, but it wasn't useful on it's own merits and strikecraft had massive issues amongst themselves on top. In fact your point about assault frigs beating ion frigs is a great example of that. the very fact that a ship who's sole advantage over it's competitors was it's superior firepower could actually be beaten by said competitors is itself a huge internal balance issue.


    Also what i meant with fuel and frigates is HW1 forces you to expend much of your early resource investment and a good chunk of your pop cap on support frigs so that your less able to keep around numbers of actual combat frigates.

    Now thats not to say that HW2's frigates didn't have issues, as i noted HW2's cap ships where way too cost efficient which sidelines the ion/heavy missile frigs and the bugged assault frig hurt the Vaygr furthar. Cap ships basically ended up invalidating frigates which was a huge issue, but it was because of two specific ships being OTT. Not because only 2 out of about a dozen ships where actually ok balance wise, and for the time period prior to that they where fully capable combatants that where, (at least in the Higarran's case, again the Vaygr got the shaft cos bugs), fully capable of standing in the line of battle on their own merits, they didn't need a strikecraft wall backing them up and a non-strike craft opponent to be relevant.

    @nanaki: I have no clue what your talking about. Platforms are pretty much suicide vs even the easiest AI. I shudder to think what a competent player would do to anyone dumbass enough to use them. Also Fuel added nothing to the metagame so i have no clue how it threw a wrench, i do agree that the differing production wasn't handled great, but then production capacity was rarely my limit in HW2, it was income. In that respect the Vaygr's cheaper carriers are quite the plus.
    I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.

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  4. #154
    They must have seriously nerfed platforms after I quit playing. I remember the first few weeks of HW2's release was just constant platform spam/rushes. As for fuel, it basically gave the carrier hangarbays a use carrying fighters instead of always keeping the fighters out 24/7 because the only reason you would dock them was for repairs. You have a point about the Vaygr's cheaper carriers, but unit limits were still a thing and it absolutly killed the fun of carrier only games.

  5. Gamers Lounge Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #155
    Legendary JAL-18's Avatar
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    Who ever built support frigates for fuel platforms? The long range magic repair beams were so ridiculously useful I don't know why you wouldn't build SFs regardless of what else your fleet consisted of.

    The rest of your HW1 experience just doesn't match mine at all and I don't know what to say to that. Missile destroyer effectiveness dropped off drastically after it spent its initial 32 missiles and they were a significant hit to your destroyer cap. Send in a suicide wave of scouts to waste their ammo and your bomber wings (or, anything, really) could follow to wipe out the destroyers (or more usefully the support frigates keeping them alive - see above). The real reason you saw a strike craft drop off in the late game is the lack of hyperspace - it wasn't worth the time waiting for them to dock or having enough jump capable support craft to bring them along.

    Considering how much time and resources you had in the campaign I don't think that's a fair place to criticize balance. Light corvettes for example were pointless because you got heavy corvette tech in the same mission and you could just wait around at the end of missions to harvest and build whatever you wanted. In multiplayer light corvettes came out as soon as they were available due to their cheapness, increased firepower, and durability against fighters. Pop a support frigate or some repair corvettes behind them and you have the basis of your corvette wall, which you can add heavies and/or multies to as needed.

    Platforms in the HW2 beta and at release were ridiculously overpowered notably in the oversight where moving the ship that built them didn't count against their single-move. You could spam platforms on a carrier and make a poor man's capital ship. Obviously this was patched out fairly quickly.

  6. General Discussions Senior Member  #156
    terrible, terrible damage Starfisher's Avatar
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    Guys keep in mind that probably the last time you played comp HW1 was over ten years ago. Memory is unreliable and based on the average age here most of us were young enough to still not quite max out gaming skills. I was terribad at HW1 because I was 15 when it came out. Now I'm 30 jesus fuck I'm old. But I'm also way better at games in general. I wish I could devote hours a day to HW:R and see what I'm capable of now, but unfortunately life has other plans.

    Anyway, let's wait and see how the game plays when it comes out. Even if it's an HW1 clone in all details, people are going to take time to remember old tricks and there should be some fun meta-game evolution until it all settles. Maybe it'll even have a decent MP scene for a while.

  7. Gamers Lounge Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #157
    Legendary JAL-18's Avatar
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    It's more fun to discuss balance and strategy than just wait around though

    Although to your point I had forgotten how deadly Defenders are. I booted up Homeworld 1 for nostalgia and my swarm of 20+ Scouts got horribly chewed up by 7 Defenders, even using evasive tactics. I thought it was just a formation of interceptors guarding a harvesting op and 10 seconds later when I looked back half my wing was gone or spewing flames.

    I also forgot about the dangers of ionized dust clouds and another dozen pilots lost their lives because of it. Oops.

  8. #158
    Member marmoo's Avatar
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    Ionized clouds would sync game in multiplayer if ion frigates fired in those clouds.

    Use of CTRL Z when attacking with scouts/inters would counter Defenders

    And lets not forget the Battleball tatic

  9. #159
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    It's more fun to discuss balance and strategy than just wait around though
    This.

    @Jal: Note i was given the advice for both skirmish and campaign, and i did mention the bit about light corvettes.

    As for the repair beam. Why would i want it, i know it doesn't come close to equaling the damage output of another frigate so outside of strikcraft fights there really is no justifiable reason to build one. One more actual combat frigate will increase your incoming damage per minute, (from lost healing), by less than the enemies. The only place it really works is with strikecraft because they're so evasive they take damage much more slowly from assault frigates than anything else, (and virtually nothing from anythign bigger bar the MD). Also seriously you do understand the idea of cost effectiveness. Sure there are a hell of a lot of ways to beat a MD with strikcraft, but are any of them ever going to do it without suboptimal ship options and/or on less resources.

    Platforms in the HW2 beta and at release were ridiculously overpowered notably in the oversight where moving the ship that built them didn't count against their single-move. You could spam platforms on a carrier and make a poor man's capital ship. Obviously this was patched out fairly quickly.
    Despite having HW2 unpatched, (and yes i beat the campaign that way), from roughly release till my join date here i never discovered that. That is kind dumb. Though i'm not sure how it could have created a real balance issue, even unpatched platforms where awful for their cost, Bombers, laser Corvette's, Ion Frig's, Heavy Missile Frig's, Even Flak Frigs beat them 1v1 even when facing their supposed hard counter. Off top of my head i think most of those fights can even be won 1 v 2 which means the platforms generally cost more than what it takes to kill them.

    As for fuel, it basically gave the carrier hangarbays a use carrying fighters instead of always keeping the fighters out 24/7 because the only reason you would dock them was for repairs.
    Given i don't remember anyone using carriers for that purpose like ever i'm not sure what your trying to say. Honestly Fuel in HW1 did nothing because the whole system was built around using support frigs to let you rotate them out a few at a time. Combine that with the repair beams and the net effect on combat power was probably net positive as the repair beams improved longevity sufficiently that they made up the slight loss in combat power from always having a few out of the fight refueling.

    If the system had forced you to withdraw the whole wing from combat, then sure it would have added something, (and had some more different problems), but the way it actually worked all it did was forc spending on support frigs.

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Despite having HW2 unpatched, (and yes i beat the campaign that way), from roughly release till my join date here i never discovered that. That is kind dumb. Though i'm not sure how it could have created a real balance issue, even unpatched platforms where awful for their cost, Bombers, laser Corvette's, Ion Frig's, Heavy Missile Frig's, Even Flak Frigs beat them 1v1 even when facing their supposed hard counter. Off top of my head i think most of those fights can even be won 1 v 2 which means the platforms generally cost more than what it takes to kill them.
    The difference is that Platforms could be had out super early, before any of the counters could be built. For the early game, platforms had an enormous amount of firepower, and even if you ignore the exploit, most people just used the single-move on platforms to move them to the enemy base, which basically turned them into early capital ships since they could still fire while on the move.

  11. General Discussions Senior Member The Studio Senior Member Boardwars Senior Member  #161
    Player Hater Langy's Avatar
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    Yeah; that was definitely a thing that happened, Nanaki. I don't remember if I even played HW2 after the first patch, but I distinctly remember sending a ton of platforms off to an enemy's base to die in a HW2 multiplayer match. Don't think it actually worked, though - I'm generally terrible at MP.

  12. Gamers Lounge Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #162
    Legendary JAL-18's Avatar
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    Carl I played through this stuff first-hand, I'm not relying on someone else's "advice."

    Your claim about support frigates is mathematically wrong. I pulled open the game files to get the exact values for the repair beam versus the damage output of an assault frigate. An SF can repair 100 damage per second indefinitely. The four guns on an AF do 180 damage total and fire every 2.9 seconds. The two plasma launchers do 130 damage every 5 seconds. Averaging this out gives ~88.1 damage per second for an assault frigate. (And this is the maximum possible - HW1 actually had minor damage variability, so in practice AFs would do less than 88 DPS). Support frigates are cheaper than assault frigates (425 vs 575) so on paper you could build SFs 1-on-1 with the enemy's AFs and come out ahead. How's that for cost-effectiveness?

    And looking at the patch notes from HW2 we see significant nerfs to platforms:

    g. Platforms no longer attack when moving.

    a. Platforms
    i. Platform controller build time increase (from 30s to 70s).
    ii. Hiigaran Platform controller cost increase (from 500ru to 650ru).
    iii. Ion Platform accuracy vs. corvettes and fighters has been decreased (from 10% to 4% for fighters and from 8% to 4% for corvettes).
    iv. Ion Platforms Penetration vs. Corvettes and Fighters has been decreased from (from 100% to 1% vs. fighters and from 100% to 10% for Corvettes).
    v. Ion Platform research time has been increased by 70 seconds (from 30s to 100s).
    vi. Missile Platform research time has been increased by 45 seconds (from 60s to 105s).
    vii. Speed for all platforms has been reduced by 75 (from 200 to 125).
    viii. Platforms have had significant reduction in amount of damage done to collectors (75% damage reduction for gun platforms 50% damage reduction for missile platforms and 60% damage reduction for Ion Platforms).

    tldr: Platforms take longer to produce, are more expensive, and are less effective against early game units (strike craft and collectors).
    Last edited by JAL-18; 30th Jan 15 at 9:27 AM.

  13. Technical Help Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #163
    Multi-Capsed ORCACommander's Avatar
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    updated my faq folks!

  14. Child's Play Donor General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member The Workshop Senior Member  #164
    Ignorans, te absolvo Homdax's Avatar
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    I am soo gonna wooop yer rears in MP....wait, I have only one MP session on record and it was so good I was accused of cheating.
    Where is my horse and armour... ah, thats lotro... my Ion Cannons and Bombers.

    Looking for time and sacrifice. I need some training sessions, need to fire up these games.

  15. #165
    Never Around.. Mr Tyranny's Avatar
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    Amazing that my account is still here. The resurrections continue..

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  16. #166
    Homdax - you have my sword!

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  17. #167
    I be Alpha_1_SLS most places. Alpha_1's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm spitting in the wind here but support frigates were used for quiet effective harassment, dock a full compliment of fighters and corvettes on one then tell it to jump to an enemy resource sight and watch the carnage ensue. Never used em that way myself because I never got the timing right but they were used against me that way often enough.
    There is power in words.

  18. #168
    Updated the main post with ORCACommander's FAQ (Thanks for that info btw) and put a link to the full panel that ign uploaded.
    Last edited by die harder; 30th Jan 15 at 9:33 PM.
    I'm am modder not much else to say, You can contact me through Moddb (Rapid107) through Tanis or the GearBox official Homeworld forums.

  19. #169
    Member marmoo's Avatar
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    I found towards the end of Won we never used the tatic of hypering fighters / corvs via the support frigate. To be honest we stopped using the big maps years before that for our online skirmishes

  20. #170
    Member Derivative's Avatar
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    I never figured out how to get all the fighters and corvettes to dock onto the support frigate for hyperspacing. I could only ever get 1 or 2 of them docked before it hyperspaced.

  21. Gamers Lounge Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #171
    Legendary JAL-18's Avatar
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    You had to issue the dock command (preferably by double clicking on the given support frigate) and then the hyperspace order. The frigate would wait for the strike craft to dock before jumping.

  22. #172
    That hyperspace ferrying is one of the things I want back most badly, though have not huge hopes for.
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  23. Technical Help Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #173
    Multi-Capsed ORCACommander's Avatar
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    i just hope it gets a better interface for it

  24. Technical Help Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #174
    Multi-Capsed ORCACommander's Avatar
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    article 15 has been updated

  25. #175
    Otaku ~ Mönch mdcertainty's Avatar
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    Wasn't even aware that there is a remastered version coming up.... nice

  26. Technical Help Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #176
    Multi-Capsed ORCACommander's Avatar
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    updated article 1 on my daq

  27. #177
    I'm going to dig into my old HW1 and 2 files and see what I can add to the conversation, besides knowing that one tactic I loved, grav's and salvage corvettes in games stealing became an art form especially 4on4.
    Katha secret of immortality is to be found in purification of the heart, in meditation, in realization of the identity of the Self within and Brahman without. For immortality is simply union with God

  28. The Studio Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #178
    Cryo-Pod Sleeper Chrome's Avatar
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    I'll join in now that my connection doesn't suck anywhere as much as it did 10-odd years ago, I'll be able to play online reliably. I remember trying to learn tactics off folks in WON, but the synch error usually made me drop out or caused weird glitches.

    Wait, I'm usually horrible at MP. Uh, oh well. Just let me cough and shuffle off quietly now...

    (And hope the Remastered devs put in that hot pink teamcolors anti-hack for anyone trying all-black ships for the two HW1 races because ya know, fond memories.)

  29. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrome View Post
    (And hope the Remastered devs put in that hot pink teamcolors anti-hack for anyone trying all-black ships for the two HW1 races because ya know, fond memories.)
    Kind of funny considering that anti-hack was pathetically easy to circumvent =>->=

  30. #180
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    CHROME!!! Good to see you. How you doing these day's, haven't heard from you in ages.

  31. #181
    Cat in disguise! MadCatChiken's Avatar
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    Wait, I'm usually horrible at MP. Uh, oh well. Just let me cough and shuffle off quietly now...
    It's ok, I used to win against my brother by swarming his mothership with so many scouts his laptop would lag out!

  32. #182
    Member Derivative's Avatar
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    I find myself playing Cataclysm again after finding the cd. It took a bit to get working on Windows 7, but it's apparent it just doesn't run quite right. I'm at the mission where you yell at the Bentusi - I don't see all the responses that they say and the conversation plays with serious pauses between the speakers.

    Shame that the source code is missing. Here's hoping it turns up in a loft of a barn somewhere.

  33. The Studio Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #183
    Cryo-Pod Sleeper Chrome's Avatar
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    Doing good. Just putzing around in the old Homeworld-fan stomping grounds a touch.

  34. #184
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    They even dug up Alex Garden.

    Edit: Also notice what's playing on the small screen at 3:24
    Last edited by Laevus; 7th Feb 15 at 5:28 AM.

  35. #185
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Good to hear. Missed the artwork spam you used to do. I'd have looked up your deviantart or wherever you post art now but no idea where that is .

    p.s. Sorry if i was in any way responsible for pushing you away from here, i know stuff got a lot crazy around legacies at the end, and i think everyone let themselves get swept up.

  36. #186
    Ah, so this is the thread. You seen this? Some really good trivia. Even though I have yet to dig into HW:C that I own (I really need a nocd) then this looks amazing.


  37. #187
    Member Shoota Fodder's Avatar
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    Ooft, having never picked up a HW game I think I'll definitely grab this...
    "Celtic fans right now sit in silence and watch, and hope that the damage doesn't get any worse from this Graham Carey free kick. Away by Wilson. Teale. Still options waiting in the middle for St. Mirren...OH, AND THEY HAVE ANOTHER ONE! It's stunning! It's absolutely stunning at Hampden park! And it's Steven Thompson, who scores his thirteenth goal of the season, and that might just be the goal that takes St. Mirren into the league cup final!" - 27/01/2013

  38. #188
    Member uncle_anaesthesia's Avatar
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    just pre ordered can see myself late at night drinking some beers and enjoying the visuals and music

  39. #189
    Yes. pre-ordered this a week or so ago. Just waiting now.

  40. #190
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Intresting question for all modders. Whats the first thing you think you'll mod once we get the ability to do so? Assuming the VFX scale option is still in I'll probably be implementing my vaygr plasma cannon mod which turned the vaygr frigate and destroyer guns into plasma cannon. never did get the Fighter guns working like that though . Just couldn't get a good enough looking FX.

  41. General Discussions Senior Member The Studio Senior Member  #191
    I haz nori, u want? Nurizeko's Avatar
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    I assume a new PDS mod would be one of the first to appear.

    It made the base HW experience quite fun after all.

  42. #192
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Ughhh hated that mod. It was the perfect example of "Ohh Shiny" syndrome. They'd stuck so many unnecessary weapons and modules and other stuff on everything and so totally failed to explain what anything did that i could never really play it because i had no idea what did what.

    That's not to say the idea of implementing mass CIWS stuff was bad, but the implementation left much to be desired.

  43. #193
    over in the modding forum you can see PDS members starting to reorganize, so that's a thing. Me, it depends too much on what the HWRM engine allows. Porting stuff, fixing stuff, testing stuff.

  44. Child's Play Donor  #194
    Run for the train!!! Dark_Axel's Avatar
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    I seriously want the Star Wars mod back (WarLords), it was everything I could ever wished for that LucasArts never did.
    Also... Battlestar Galactica anyone?!
    The Dark one has Arrived.

  45. #195
    BrickSpace will be back of course.

    I'm hoping to do lots of fiddling with the fuel systems and formations. And see what kind of missile count and PDS weapons are possible.

  46. Child's Play Donor General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member The Workshop Senior Member  #196
    Ignorans, te absolvo Homdax's Avatar
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    STFU Carl.

    How is that expression: put your mouth in your hand?

    In any case I am politely trying to convey that the Mod development is attempting a restart and that, if it ever was considered closed, we are making efforts to ensure that anyone can have their say about it.

    Welcome to www.pds.homeworldaccess.net

  47. #197
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    To be fair homdax the last version i downloaded may not have been remotely the most recent. it's many moons ago and i'm not clear on when the new versions stopped coming out. If you want a detailed critique and summary of things i think could help feel free to say so .

    Like i aid i also wasn't trying to be insulting or anything. Compared to a number of other mods for various games it's quite good. Your not remotely in the Darwin Award modding category.

  48. Child's Play Donor General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member The Workshop Senior Member  #198
    Ignorans, te absolvo Homdax's Avatar
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    Is true that development cycles are jagged at best. Considering what I have seen you post over time I wish to underline the opportunities you actually have to present your views and ideas. You know HW, you are no rookie, you have versed opinions, I just want you to bring them to bear.

  49. #199
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Wasn't sure how to interpret your first couple of lines . Will get to work on something more detailed then .

  50. Gamers Lounge Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member  #200
    Do You Even Lift? Mantaray's Avatar
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    I'm looking forward to wacking the game up to ridiculous scale again.
    interceptors coming in a proper squadron of 3 flights consisting of 5 interceptors.

    depending on the engine limitations, i'm tempted to throw it up to wing level, consisting of 3 squadrons of 3 flights containing 5 interceptors each.
    obviously this'll all change depending on initial flight size as-included.

    maybe making it a feature/research to be able to build different size 'units' to represent increased C2 capacity of the fleet.

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