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  1. #101
    Intercept course punched in Elukka's Avatar
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    We never really see the Kushan engines' structure in HW1. They're all covered in glow.

    I have a million artistic quibbles about the redone ships but I really like how the engines shut down when they're not moving.

  2. Child's Play Donor Technical Help Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #102
    Finally done. Moe's Avatar
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    So porting the dynamic enemy fleet strength adjustment into the HW1 campaign is a bit of a problem when you do bridge of sighs the way it's meant to be, i.e. by capturing 100 ions. The sheer number of enemy vessels that spawn in a giant + formation right in front of your mothership in the last mission is, uh, problematic.

  3. #103
    Skeptic Kushan_Pilot's Avatar
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    I believe it. All it takes is for the heavy cruiser that spawns there to get in a salvo or two, harder still if it's one of many ships there. Did you have the same problem in mission 3? If you grabbed all the Turanic ships, an impossible number of assault frigates spawn and decimate the cryo trays. The Homeworld campaign needs to be rebalanced. The Gardens shouldn't be so easy, the Turanic carrier and Needle Mothership should actually shoot back, and so on.

    I'm amazed you had the patience to snag those frigates. Since the salvettes have to go all the way back to the mothership, it's too slow for me.


    Sierra/VG's Homeworld, Cataclysm, and HW 2 Moderator (Closed)

  4. Child's Play Donor Technical Help Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #104
    Finally done. Moe's Avatar
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    I'm amazed you had the patience to snag those frigates. Since the salvettes have to go all the way back to the mothership, it's too slow for me.
    I used a pair of heavy corvettes and waypoints to first go counterclockwise around the giant sphere formation. That causes all the frigates in the upper half to "unravel" and follow the vettes. I then had the vettes descend to about 1.5km above the plane that the mothership was in, and then had them orbit the MS. The frigates followed, and since they were locked in on the two heavy vettes, they didn't try to shoot anyone else. That way, the distances were not too long for the salvettes, and i just picked the frigates off one by one.

    Then repeat for the bottom half. Then repeat for the HC and the destroyers.

    So yeah, at the start of the last mission, there are so goddamn many enemy ions, plus a few supercaps. Tricky to get them before they destroy the MS.

    And yeah, I don't like the rebalance. I used to be able to use a carrier to focus the enemy fire, keep it alive with support frigs, and have the ions salvaged right there on-site. That won't work anymore, because hitpoints have been nerfed everywhere, and there's a limit to how many frigs can heal you at any given time because they don't use their cool long range green beams anymore

  5. General Discussions Senior Member The Studio Senior Member Boardwars Senior Member  #105
    Player Hater Langy's Avatar
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    The Turanic carrier definitely shoots back - I lost a large number of strike craft to it while I was busy capping everything I could.

  6. #106
    Skeptic Kushan_Pilot's Avatar
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    I won't deny its point defenses are pretty good. But it never used its main weapons against me, just sat there.

  7. Child's Play Donor Technical Help Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #107
    Finally done. Moe's Avatar
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    I won't deny its point defenses are pretty good. But it never used its main weapons against me, just sat there.
    Yep, it used to have dual ions and actually presented a threat to the mothership. Now, not so much.

  8. Homeworld Senior Member  #108
    Hiding out on LM-27 Norsehound's Avatar
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    We never really see the Kushan engines' structure in HW1. They're all covered in glow.
    Actually... we kind of do. If you check out some of the dead derelicts in Karos they use the same engine bank as the classic Kushan ships. The OFF engine banks show a kind of plate with paired holes drilled down the length. HWS has a pretty good shot:




    I kind of liked this being off and "full burn" is so bright this plate is obscured, don't really like the round nozzles set into the bars. The Bar engines were part of what made Homeworld different IMO, because it wasn't another engine bell but was still a chemical engine.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    So porting the dynamic enemy fleet strength adjustment into the HW1 campaign is a bit of a problem when you do bridge of sighs the way it's meant to be, i.e. by capturing 100 ions. The sheer number of enemy vessels that spawn in a giant + formation right in front of your mothership in the last mission is, uh, problematic.

    Not sure. Landed in Bridge with 16 HC's and 13 destroyers and had no problems there




    The trick for this is probably possible in classic and 1.05, but I haven't tried yet. It is tedious and makes salvaging all the ion's look like a task for someone with ADHD.

    -dB

  10. Child's Play Donor Technical Help Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #110
    Finally done. Moe's Avatar
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    Not sure. Landed in Bridge with 16 HC's and 13 destroyers and had no problems there
    It's not so much what you bring into bridge, it's what you take out of bridge, i.e. about 110 ion frigs. That makes the last mission... iffy.

  11. #111
    Skeptic Kushan_Pilot's Avatar
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    Alright, explain the line of Kushan HC's. Did you feed them to the ghost ship and retire all your frigates for the resources to build them?

  12. Homeworld Senior Member  #112
    Hiding out on LM-27 Norsehound's Avatar
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    You don't get heavy guns until Karos, so he probably gave them to the Dawg and then salvaged them later?

  13. #113
    Member Jake's Avatar
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    So... Did anything we all criticised HW2 for back in the good old days get fixed for the remastered version?


    [

  14. #114
    Exactly, fed them to the dog, and got them back. Very tedious to do safely. One must pin the dog with gravwells, then clean out the autoguns anywhere near where he leaves things he catches. Then let him catch things, then kill him, then get them all back.

    Tedious in RM, where you can cycle through 4 gravwells. Not sure yet it it's possible in classic or 1.05 with gravwells that blow up and harder autoguns, but I'm going to try.

    I think if you let the dog take things, then try to kill autoguns before salvage that you have to fight your captured fleet and the autoguns, which could be awkward.

  15. #115
    So... Did anything we all criticised HW2 for back in the good old days get fixed for the remastered version?
    If you were criticising the difficulty of HW2, then yes, they fixed that. It's much easier.
    Last edited by dbrower; 15th Mar 15 at 8:03 PM. Reason: add the quote

  16. Homeworld Senior Member  #116
    Hiding out on LM-27 Norsehound's Avatar
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    I have to speculate where most of Gearbox's efforts for the remaster went. Certainly work in porting HW1 levels, actions, and behaviors into Homeworld 2 must have taken some time, otherwise one of the mods would have done it by now. Writing new behaviors for some of the classic ships and pirate races must have taken some time as well?

    seems to me that some of the Homeworld 1 races have shortcuts from Homeworld 2 systems to make them work. Transposing the Hiigaran defense field into the Taiidan one, making classic missile destroyers apparently fire missile corvette guns, making fighters simply one-ship squadrons... etc. That Gearbox didn't do a better job on these things makes me think about where their development time was invested for this project.

    On one hand I can be a little miffed they didn't spend their time correcting mistakes and fixing things in the time it took them to put our this remastered copy of Homeworld...

    ...but on the other, I presume a lot of that work was getting these old games to work on modern systems and in a place where they are friendly to modify. Once the game was good enough to release they did so, but fixing these issues is something that will have to come later.

    Not that I suppose we'll ever know, but my wonder now is what the Gearbox team is up to for HWR. Are there deeper and larger issues that team is presently working on or have they re-tasked for something else? The Gearbox team has their own priorities... but modders have a lot of free time and little obligations for other projects to pursue the fixes at their own leisure.

  17. #117
    It's not so much what you bring into bridge, it's what you take out of bridge, i.e. about 110 ion frigs. That makes the last mission... iffy.
    Haven't needed anything caught in the bridge in a long time.

    With 16 HCs, you just drive straight to the inhibitor and kill it. The ion's, DDs and lone HC melt like buttah.

  18. #118
    I am now playing classic, which looks and feels very familiar. Kami-salvage of missilie corvettes is as hard or harder than I remember. I will test ghosting. If you're having trouble with a multi-screen setup, use the /window command line option, which fixed it for me.

  19. #119
    With more than 2 cruisers, there's absolutely nothing the game hits you with that can't be slaughtered- unless the game caught wise and countered with even more cruisers. The only things that can reliably defeat cruisers without suffering insane losses are bombers, salvettes... and other cruisers. Half a dozen destroyers can manage it, but not without losing two or three ships. They completely destroy the game's balance; they're worse than HW2's BCs, because you can't even disable their weapons to negate the obscene gap between them and the next most powerful ships. Take out their engines and they're still murder with a side of fries from almost any angle... and it doesn't help that nonfunctional formations and ultra-slow frig and destroyer movement make it that much more difficult to get out and stay out of their main gun firing arcs.

    The balance is even weirder because HWR seems to scale difficulty... inconsistently. There were some missions where it spawned more of only one ship type (usually assault frigates); others where it spawned gobs of assault frigates and strike craft, and only two where it increased the number of super-capitals present by adding more destroyers (5 and 14 for me). The result wasn't difficult, just really, really tedious. Because everything kills frigates, I stopped using them for anything but cleanup after M10. I stopped using strike craft because anything smaller than a corvette was even squishier; on one occasion I lost 70 bombers to a group of 12 multiguns... in less than 30 seconds. I used gravwells, which most enemies seem to just ignore, instead of frigs and strike craft (in pairs for continuous use). An assault frig glob played broom after the super-caps took care of anything bigger than a corvette.

    As soon as I got cruisers and gravwells, my losses dropped to basically zilch until M16, when I split my fast ships off to make sure Elson survived. Most of that group was destroyed by- you guessed it- cruisers (fortunately I had max bombers and managed to just barely kill them before they wiped out everything larger, since they had no antifighter support). Even then, I defeated every wave of attackers with no losses at all using just three cruisers, some gravwells, and my cleanup force of assault frigs (which stayed out of the fight until only the frozen solid strike craft were left alive). I'd have needed support frigs to do that before- I even had about 20 of them, I just never used 'em. The first wave was the largest, consisting of ~80 frigates, two missile destroyers, two destroyers, and a cruiser... only one of my cruisers came out of that fight with significant damage (~50%); the other two were pristine. Guess which enemy did almost all of that damage. Yup. Cruiser.

    The difficulty in Remastered comes entirely from random broken crap and cruisers. M6 murders strike craft because they fly straight into the asteroids; use caps and it's back to easy town (though frigs and destroyers do some odd things there too- at least they're not suicidal). M8 also murders strike craft because remain docked resets to auto-launch and vomits them right out into the swarmers before you get control. M12, same story. M10-11-12 can be hard if you don't salvage that first cruiser, but only because you have to fight a cruiser in each mission using only everything else that's not a cruiser. Grab that one guy, and every mission afterwards is a cakewalk. Grab two or three, and you steamroll absolutely everything with them to the point that you can just leave everything else at home but two gravwells and some mop-up frigs to freeze and swat strike craft. I can't even imagine how crazy things must get when you've got 16 cruisers to play with. 0_o

  20. #120
    I can't even imagine how crazy things must get when you've got 16 cruisers to play with. 0_o
    They took away my humane mass salvaging, but gave me as many HCs as I had RU to build. No more Mr. Nice Guy.

  21. #121
    GentleM3N OutriderVS9's Avatar
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    With more than 2 cruisers, there's absolutely nothing the game hits you with that can't be slaughtered- unless the game caught wise and countered with even more cruisers. The only things that can reliably defeat cruisers without suffering insane losses are bombers, salvettes... and other cruisers. Half a dozen destroyers can manage it, but not without losing two or three ships. They completely destroy the game's balance; they're worse than HW2's BCs, because you can't even disable their weapons to negate the obscene gap between them and the next most powerful ships. Take out their engines and they're still murder with a side of fries from almost any angle... and it doesn't help that nonfunctional formations and ultra-slow frig and destroyer movement make it that much more difficult to get out and stay out of their main gun firing arcs.
    Yes, both HCs and BCs are end-game units with ridiculous amounts of power, and can really only be countered by another HC or BC. In skirmish and MP however, BCs completely trump HCs. There is really not much a HW1 player can do once the late game arrives in MP, especially if resource patches are spread out so much like on the HW1 maps: the problem lies within the super slow HW1 resource collectors

  22. Child's Play Donor Technical Help Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #122
    Finally done. Moe's Avatar
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    Haven't needed anything caught in the bridge in a long time.
    It's not that you need it. It's a time-honored tradition. Salvage all the things. And in bridge, you can salvage a shitton of ions.

  23. #123
    The problem also lies with trying to balance MP with the HW2 factions while having no regard whatsoever to what that does to SP balance. As it is, balance in MP is nowhere near acceptable, but the closer it gets, the worse off SP is going to be.

    If the rest of the ships are brought up to the power level they need to fight cruisers on the same terms they did in HW1, then the HW1 factions are too powerful for MP against the HW2 factions. If the cruisers are brought down to achieve the same effect, then the HW1 factions are hopelessly outclassed. Evidently Gearbox is trying to tweak the HW1 ships so that they're roughly analogous to the HW2 ships to create a more consistent MP experience... but that means SP is increasingly going to favor cruisers and everything else becomes expendable build cap filler.

    I'd much rather see two completely different sets of ships for MP and SP. While that would still be a halfassed solution, it would at least let players have working, balanced fleets in both.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion_Fury View Post
    The problem also lies with trying to balance MP with the HW2 factions while having no regard whatsoever to what that does to SP balance. As it is, balance in MP is nowhere near acceptable, but the closer it gets, the worse off SP is going to be.

    If the rest of the ships are brought up to the power level they need to fight cruisers on the same terms they did in HW1, then the HW1 factions are too powerful for MP against the HW2 factions. If the cruisers are brought down to achieve the same effect, then the HW1 factions are hopelessly outclassed. Evidently Gearbox is trying to tweak the HW1 ships so that they're roughly analogous to the HW2 ships to create a more consistent MP experience... but that means SP is increasingly going to favor cruisers and everything else becomes expendable build cap filler.

    I'd much rather see two completely different sets of ships for MP and SP. While that would still be a halfassed solution, it would at least let players have working, balanced fleets in both.
    I dont think there is anything half-assed about having separate balance for single-player and multiplayer.

  25. #125
    GentleM3N OutriderVS9's Avatar
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    The problem also lies with trying to balance MP with the HW2 factions while having no regard whatsoever to what that does to SP balance. As it is, balance in MP is nowhere near acceptable, but the closer it gets, the worse off SP is going to be.

    If the rest of the ships are brought up to the power level they need to fight cruisers on the same terms they did in HW1, then the HW1 factions are too powerful for MP against the HW2 factions. If the cruisers are brought down to achieve the same effect, then the HW1 factions are hopelessly outclassed. Evidently Gearbox is trying to tweak the HW1 ships so that they're roughly analogous to the HW2 ships to create a more consistent MP experience... but that means SP is increasingly going to favor cruisers and everything else becomes expendable build cap filler.

    I'd much rather see two completely different sets of ships for MP and SP. While that would still be a halfassed solution, it would at least let players have working, balanced fleets in both.
    This is a great point to bring up, but it is not entirely true. In fact I don't even think balancing aspects of SP even affects the balance of MP and vice versa. For instance there are in fact different health values used for the Kushan MS in SP, and in MP. Look at the following little string of code:
    if (getGameRubric(NewShipType) == GR_SINGLEPLAYER_SKIRMISH) or (getGameRubric(NewShipType) == GR_MULTIPLAYER) then
    NewShipType.maxhealth=280000
    else
    NewShipType.maxhealth=210000
    end


    There may not be separate SP and MP SHIP files, but there are clearly lines of code to differentiate between SP and MP versions of HW1 ships. So it looks as though the balancing/tweaks are indeed accounting for unique modes of play...

  26. #126
    Then... it should be a great deal easier than I thought to bring the HWR campaign back into line with HW1's less ridiculous balance. Which makes it even worse that it's not what happened.

    I mean, I like that some of the missions are harder. Some of them were always too easy, for one reason or another. It's just that the wrong ones got harder for all the wrong reasons (ie 3 for possibly spawning enough assault frigs to nuke the cryo trays before you even reach them; 6 because it's just plain broken, 9 because it can spawn ridiculous numbers of assault frigs, while you can only use strike craft... which AFs now murder... any mission with a cruiser where you don't also have a cruiser), while others got easier to the point of being pushovers (4, with the massively gimped IAFs; 7 and 8, with the gimped swarmers and MBFs, 13 with the similarly weak autoguns). I wasn't upset to find extra destroyers in 5 and 14. I wasn't upset that the asteroid in M15 spawned closer to the MS than I remember.

    But... geez. There's just so much wrong here. SP feels like an afterthought, when it should have been first and foremost on the agenda. That MP doesn't work right either just makes it all even more frustrating. This game was definitely not ready for prime time.

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