[HOWTO?] Help against Prisms

[Prodigalson]

Last night I was playing in a 3v3 game, doing pretty well. I had 4 space marine squads with missiles, 3 dreadnoughts and a squad of assault marines and was trying to defend a friend's base.

Then the Eldar player showed up with 3-4 Prism tanks. I couldn't get to his tanks with my dreadnoughts becuase of all the guardians etc... on the ground. My space marines were being bounced everywhere and couldn't seem to do any repspectable damage to them even when they were standing still and firing.

Anyway I was thinking about it and trying to decide how to answer the Fire Prism. These are some ideas I had, please let me know if you have some as well.

1. Assault Marines with Melta Bombs - These may damage a fire prism, but they will not kill it. My guess that it would take two squads to jump in to destroy on of them, then they would get blown away.

2. Vehicle Heavy Weapons - These mostly likely should be things likes Predators(all Las) and Hellfire dreadnoughts with las/missile. Since they do not get bounced around I would think they would be able to take them out.

Thanks and I would appreciate any other ideas.

[Hawley]

what weapons did your dreads have?

[Prodigalson]

They had assualt cannons or were for hand to hand. I hadn't teched up enough for the las cannons.

[Sentenz]

Quit playing against Eldar or die *g*

Just think by urself... Fireprisms got much HP, are highly accurate, have long rage, are unaffected by low projectile weapons, can jump quickly out of cc situations, are fast enough to be everywhere they want to be, are massed by most players because they do so because they win so and.. of course... they got highest splash dam, highest dam output on a vehicle so and are effective against EVERYTHING.

Just take the units that prevent such bonuses of the Fireprisms and u will beat them...

[sarcasm=off]

In fact, Elder needs some serious tuning.. or the other 3 races needs.... it's not impossible to beat fire prism but really hard. Actually.. with all the bonunses and abilitys.. Fioresprisms are VEHICLES.. so use things/units/tactics that TAKES OUT VEHICLES.

Sen

[Garibaldi]

I fear you will have to tech up to get the Lascannons to be effectiv against any kind of tank.

I've had a squad with 4 rocket launchers attack a fire prism, and another one appeard. They kept alternate firing so my squad never really recovered from the ground.
Alternatives are Predator Annihilators or Cybots or Land Raiders. Since you mention Infantry in the way, I'd say upgraded Predators. We've tested. One Annihilator kills up to two Prism tanks, but fails against three.
(Or was it one and two? Damn my memory but i'm pretty shure 2 and 3)

[MoleUK]

Preds are the answer, and yes I am aware they are expensive but they completely destroy fireprisms. How many hp's do fireprisms have anyhoo? I seem to remember them having 1700 which aint much compared to a preds 4400? or 4700 odd. Might be wrong though .

[Garibaldi]

Drawback is, they are only available rather late in the game, after you have upgraded the Stronghold a final time. I rarely have the time or ressources to build and upgrade preds, unless I have the upper hand anyway.

[Athamas]

dread lascannon, and tac squad with missiles seemed to do it for me,

i then got a second squad with 4 more missiles, as another appeard, they die prety easily if you can hit then once!

[MoleUK]

Really? Preds are tier2 fer chaos, they tier 3 for SM?

[Noir]

For some reason,yes.

I believe Chaos Preds also have slightly less health than SM Preds too.

[Amaron]

It doesn't matter if your chaos or SM all the lascannon upgrades are tier 3 for even the dreadnaughts.

Basically your only option before tier 3 is trying to get them into melee with h2h dreads or maybe assault marines and trying to keep missile launchers on them w/o letting them get knocked over.

[ComanderSeagoon]

cannons on the chaos preds are far less accurate than the SM ones

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Yes, but Chaos Preds still can't get lascannons until tier 3. Marines can get basically the same firepower at tier 2 with hellfire dreadnaughts and landspeeders.

[Amaron]

Yes, but Chaos Preds still can't get lascannons until tier 3. Marines can get basically the same firepower at tier 2 with hellfire dreadnaughts and landspeeders.

No because hellfire dreadnaughts can't get lascannons until tier 3 either. The missile launcher on a HF is pitiful as is the assault cannon.

[ComanderSeagoon]

the missile launcher should fire 2 or 3 missiles off at once but have a 50 or 80 % decrease in refire rate.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

No because hellfire dreadnaughts can't get lascannons until tier 3 either. The missile launcher on a HF is pitiful as is the assault cannon.

Chaos Preds still can't get lascannons until tier 3. They've only got Autocannon and Heavy Bolters at Tier 2.

Marines can get basically the same firepower at tier 2 (that chaos has).

[MoleUK]

Ahhh never knew it had to be tier3 to upgrade to lascannons, by the time I really start using em im always tier3 anyway heh.

[Bone Breaka]

I've found to tactical units with missle and a assault squad with melta does in one (and only one) fireprism ok, but anymore then one and the tactics change, you need another assault at min and some armour (of any kind) to lay down constent fire. The eldar play should focuse the prism.s on the assault to try and stop them from killing one giveing the tactical squad more time to fire. Beyond 1 prism with what you had it'd be a tose of the dice at best for you to take them down.

[PissWater]

Im a big big advocate in turning down the AoE of the prism tanks, prism tanks really have a glass jaw and really the only good anti vehicle units tier two are RLs and you cant really get them to effectively take down prisms if theyre being blown around all over the place. Maybe even if the smaller AoE only applied for anchored infantry it would make sense and help the prism problem alot.

[Fallen]

Heh, had a game where totally dominated all the strat points, he sits in his base teching prisms, so no big deal right, i'll just get 4 squads of rocket troops all with 4x rockets and 2x defilers, possessed squad to help clean up the guardians...

Wrong, guardians+4x prisms+normal rate eldritch storm just wiped them out, he had about 2 prisms left and more inc... Unless you have like 6 squads of rockets you can forget it.

Why the hell did they even think of making an artil tank thats as effective against troops as it is vs other vehicles AND never misses.. obscene.

[Noir]

Because in theory an artillery/tank unit that trades durability and range for accuracy sounds like a good idea,but since now that we've seen the results of this hybrid,we conclude that it was poor,or in this case,overly good in execution?

These things happen all the time in real life and such :\

[ComanderSeagoon]

rockets have a long range spread your troops out so he eather is wasteing shots or microing harder than usual. this also works for eldritch storms if you are observant.

[Fallen]

rockets have a long range spread your troops out so he eather is wasteing shots or microing harder than usual. this also works for eldritch storms if you are observant.

Unless you have more rocket troops than he's got prisms it won't work, 1 prism per group and they get owned.

Eldritch storm radius is basically the entire screen? :P

[NewAgeOfPower]

as we all know prisms need to be nerfed or upped in cost AND upped in vehicles support cost

[NakedFisherman]

as we all know prisms need to be nerfed or upped in cost AND upped in vehicles support cost

BADLY. Same goes for D-cannons.

[HannibalBarca]

Yeah I notice that Missiles damage suck on the Hellfire and Lascannons on different vehicles do different damage....even though they are the same weapon! Prisms can only be countered with Marines on 2 vs 1 basis most of the time.... That should always be the case. Also dont have your squads clumped together. After you get to tier3 though prisms are not biggy.

[NakedFisherman]

Yeah I notice that Missiles damage suck on the Hellfire and Lascannons on different vehicles do different damage....even though they are the same weapon! Prisms can only be countered with Marines on 2 vs 1 basis most of the time.... That should always be the case. Also dont have your squads clumped together. After you get to tier3 though prisms are not biggy.

For Marines they're not.

[Lt. Zaphon]

I couldn't get to his tanks with my dreadnoughts becuase of all the guardians etc...

I had this problem tonight too. It's THE problem when trying to kill Fire Prisms.


When there is a huge battle raging, your units do not always attack who they are supposed to. Add in the relatively short range of the lascannon compared to the what the FP do, the end up BEHIND the lines, instead of out front like almost everyone's armor. You don't even need to know what you're doing to have it happen, as FP will set up at their maximum range, which is way longer than the infantry that have to close in.

Not being able to get to the Fire Prisms is what is making them so effective. A FP out in the open dies pretty quick to twin linked lascannons, like 6 hits. But you just can't put fire on them because of their long range, you have to slog through 90% of the eldar front forces to get to them, and by then, weakened as you are, the FP mow you down. Oh sure, you could teleport or jump in the back, except that Fire Prisms can just jump away from you, when micro'd properly. Melta bombs do somewhere in the neighbor of 20% damage to them, so it'd take about 5 squads of assault marines to kill it before it could move. ATs I haven't seen in action against FP, but I'd imagine they'd get knocked down once and run away.

Fire Prisms SUCK in a massed battle. I've focused on them directly with my biggest guns for awhile now, and in those massed combat scenarios, I can never seem to wipe them out.

[HannibalBarca]

^^^^ I have a problem to what in my entire statement you are referring to?

[Biber_Alpha]

@Lt. Zaphon:

Yeah, I agree.
One FP isnt that problem, but massed about 3 or 4 is very hard! And when you need 2 squads for one prism, how you get your troops NOT clumped together (6-8)?

No to forget they are in combination with Seer Council, guardians with platforms and other things.

My idea is to weaken the FP a lot. It can jump away thats good. I never see Falcons or Wraithlords, only FPs. I think that is the best proof that they are to good!

[Mega-Pimp]

All tanks/walkers need abit of nerfing against Inf.
Considering the cost comparison between a tank and a marine squad with missile launchers.

[arew]

A big issue for me about tanks (especially fire prism and dreadnought) being so strong is that the only way to counter them is lots of tanks yourself and
equip everyone possible with anti-tank weapons.

If you do, then all non-anti-tank troops and upgrades becomes unused , if you don't then you will be spanked.

Thats boring.

[Daeleron]

Uhm... i do not think the dread need to be strenghtened.... and for the last time... a prism is no tank by classification, stop sending your footsoldiers into a battle versus artellery. Of course you need tanks/walkers, and maybe, maybe in the second wave behind that missile squads for support.

[Fallen]

Uhm... i do not think the dread need to be strenghtened.... and for the last time... a prism is no tank by classification, stop sending your footsoldiers into a battle versus artellery. Of course you need tanks/walkers, and maybe, maybe in the second wave behind that missile squads for support.

The problem is that prism doubles as anti-tank, so walkers don't last very long against them, tanks work but then you're looking at a tier 3 solution to a tier1/2 problem.

That's not balanced, apart from that if you go with infantry vs defilers, WW's, looted tank you'll be a hell of a lot better off than going up against a FP, the accurate knockdown is bad enough but the aoe damage on top..

[Daeleron]

Please, to build prism you have to build the soul shrine and research mobilize for war - then you have to research the unit and maybe then armor, so it not instantly curls up and dies - then you can produce. At least tier two, just on par with caos tanks - orcs are a little faster, marines slower (but they got the dread).

I agree however, they do a little to much dammage against vehicles maybe. Walkers should be able to take more pounding from them. But thats slightly overpowered.

I play caos and what i do is send a tank out, followed by a defiler driving away troops and then follow with missile infantry which can fire well out of range the prisms - the tank does well as scout. Four to five prisms prove no problem - that is if i get not spammed to death with e-storms. I gurantee you once this damm storm is gone you all will realize how weak prisms really are. As it stands now they can of coursebe abused in a pretty ugly combination with farseer - no chance to beat it, except you play eldar yourself.

[WNxHellRaid]

This post really annoyed me. It's almost saying everyone who has trouble with Eldar are stupid.

At least tier two, just on par with caos tanks - orcs are a little faster, marines slower (but they got the dread).

Chaos tanks won't have lascannons at that time and so will be pwned...

I agree however, they do a little to much dammage against vehicles maybe. Walkers should be able to take more pounding from them. But thats slightly overpowered.

No, they should do less damage to inf. And miss sometimes.

I play caos and what i do is send a tank out, followed by a defiler driving away troops and then follow with missile infantry which can fire well out of range the prisms

Right - since when did prisms have a shorter range than miss. launchers? it's one of the problems discussed. and when can a defiler "drive away troops"? its so innaccurate it can hardly "drive away" anything, unless it reaches CC.

Four to five prisms prove no problem - that is if i get not spammed to death with e-storms. I gurantee you once this damm storm is gone you all will realize how weak prisms really are.

Four to five prisms is the big problem. If they get grouped together and focus ona a target, say goodbye. I get the feeling what you have writter is entirely theory.

I think that prisms should:

1. Deal slightly less damage.
2. Be as accurate as a SM firing a ML.
3. Be unable to jump if in CC (The thrusters would be unstable due to being pushed around)
4. If none of the above, make a limit of 3 prisms.

[Hawley]

i think the devs should remove the prims tank from the game, that way you guys can stop bitching about it

[Trienco]

i think the devs should remove the prims tank from the game, that way you guys can stop bitching about it

then something else would need to take the place of artillery/anti-tank/anti-building vehicle and would again be useful against everything and the vehicle of choice (why build weak vehicles with limited use if theres this neat and tough one-size-fits-all-jumping-tank?)

[Çhristovas]

Fire prims aren't so tough. they have about 1045 HP. hit them will meltas and rockets and they will make quick work of the. They only do 70-80 pts of damage i belive, so don't get so fearful.

[Trienco]

Fire prims aren't so tough. they have about 1045 HP.

i really need to find out where you get all the numbers. last time i checked it was shown with 3485hp which is about 1/3 more than their wraithlord and close to 5x the falcon or vyper. once you can afford it theres not much reason to build anything but prisms and maybe some wraithlords for good measure (yet, it seems the "smaller" vehicles of other races are also often underused?)

[Ahnteis]

Problem is they have long range, high damage, huge AOE, pretty high HP, AND they can jump away when they're hurt.

NO weakness.

[HannibalBarca]

1.They have low HP for a vehicle.
2.Do not do too much damage to infantry or vehicles particularly (only thing that saves them is AOE)
3.Dont clump squads agianst nuff said

Also I dont see the problem with alot of you what is wrong with countering vehicles with anti-armor squads I just dont get it...

[Question]

Your anti-armor squads get a chance to deploy???

[Talos]

i have played loads of games against eldar and the fp fine missle kill them quick.Also that is eldar only strong veh as wraithload is weak compared to the killer kan and dread and defiler and the falcon and viper are weak

[Alexus]

My experience is that 3 squads of SM all equiped with 3 or 4 Rocketlaunchers do the trick very well. So my guess is that that's your best resolution for prism's untill your preds arrive at the scene.

Send a decoy dread for some distraction from the prism's, that way your SM will gung-ho all the way! :fight:

[Lt. Zaphon]

My strat is this against FP. Split my WW fire between the infantry and fire prisms to soften them up. Target them with all my a) tier 3 lascannon preds/dreads, or b) target them with all my hell fires. Target them will all my ML. Focus fire one at a time.

This didn't work so well in 1.3 because of Eldritch storm. Kept nuetralizing my ML fire, lagging my tanks so that they behaved funny. With it being less prevalent now, battle is cleaner, units do more of what they are supposed to be doing instead of freaking out. Prisms die pretty easily.

That's IF the Eldar player is going basic and just backing up his main force with FP. If they are spending a little more time being clever, and make me divide my fire in two directions to kill his FP, things are not so peachy. The collateral damage from the WW is a lot less, my dreads/vehicles don't absorb nearly as much infantry fire, and Eldritch storm helps do my infantry force in, isolating my vehicles.

Fire prisms are fine. They just take more work now to be effective. I'm no longer totally screwed when facing 5 FPs, as most people that don't know what their doing end up winning my battle for me.

[Z3phyr]

As an eldar player I don't build prisms anymore. #1 engage his infantry in H2H. #2 Engage prisms H2H.

Prisms now have friendly fire and can mess up his own infantry. Then if you h2h w/ the prisms you can mess them up with a quickness.