true true,but a HC has 6 1 barrled guns so it still outguns the BC,but it really depends on the situation.
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true true,but a HC has 6 1 barrled guns so it still outguns the BC,but it really depends on the situation.
BC has manuverability and flexibility...HC has raw firepower
IMHO
APOC
But the HC has one big advantage: Those 4 ion cannons have better tracking. I saw one of my Tai HC take down 14 enemy bombers just using those ion cannons, but those bombers weren't even dodging though.
my personal opinion is that:
a heavy cruiser is a support ship that needs to work with other more specialised ships to be most effective and gives a strike group much more anti-capital fire power.
a Battle cruiser is capable of performing well by itself due to it's various weapons and can direct it's fire power in a 360 degree arc compared to the heavy cruisers smaller foreward arc.
Historically:
Heavy Cruisers were extremely heavily armored ship with cruiser armament.
Battle cruisers, on the other hand, had armament more along the lines of a battle ship, but they had much much less armor. This made them very, very fast, but also very vulnerable to heavy fire.
In a battle, a BC would always win against a HC, mainly because its heavier armament had a much longer range; the HC would get pounded to pieces before it could ever get close enough to deal lethal damage.
Now, we all know that HW2 doesn't follow the naval model exactly, but I view the 100-year tech improvement from HW1 to HW2 as being pardigmatically very similar to the shift that occured post-WWII to today's modern military: our guns haven't really gotten that much more powerful (we've never made anything larger than the Montana-class's 16-inch guns), but we've become much more versatile and quick-footed, so to speak.
So, the HC is basically just a totall badass ship. It has super-heavy armor and super-heavy weapons, but it's very slow and is vulnerable to quick attack e.g. bombers. The BC, on the other hand, is much more versatile: its range is much longer, its faster (well, a little at least), it has fighter bays, and also has fighter-defense guns. *shrug*
Corvet defence guns,the fighter bay suks for anything but carring fighters(6-7 squads),the arc is larger true but in a slug fest the HC wins due to the fact that it brings more firepower and armor than the BC which is like the HMS Hood(remeber what hapend to that ship?1 word:KABOOM!)faster but weaker in armor,the only thing it has in plus is either i fire control tower or a cloaking device.
Now lets say ur a complete moron and send a HC front up to a BC the BC will use its range and get in a few shots but then the HC comes into its range and starts to pummle the ion turrets(which r sub-systems and can be destroyed)and after those r knocked out it just takes its time taking apart the BC.
The HC has the advantage of no subsystems so its got no achilies heel in weapon sistems.
HC rullez BC drullez!
who says they won't make the ion cannons on the HC subsystems?
I forget, how did they deal with the fighter fuel issues and the limited ammunition for the missile destroyers?
I say in a 1v1 fight the HC will win, but in a team tactics, the BCs got it down with the fire control tower and cloaking system. So it depends on how you want the fight to occur. HC is too slow limiting its strategic ability(aside from hyperspacing it all over the place), the BC however, can deploy fighters to cover its flank or to assist in a raid.
Or, since the battlecruiser was built ONE HUNDRED YEARS LATER and has TEN TIMES the firepower (seriously -- look at the firepower number and the fact that the Hiigaran BC's ions drain over a third of a destroyer's HP per hit) the Heavy Cruiser dies almost instantly.
There is absolutely no single way, whatsoever, that a stock HW1 heavy cruiser could stand any chance against a stock HW2 battlecruiser. The only thing the HW1 heavy cruiser does better... is that it's faster. The HW2 BC is significantly tougher, and its ion guns are something like five to ten times more powerful. Nuffsaid.
Have I mentioned the HW2 BC is a century newer than the HW1 HC? Because it is. Now, I dunno about you guys, but I'm pretty sure the vessels America was using in 1905 don't stand much chance against the vessels America is using in 2005.
By the way -- HW1 HC... 100 years older than HW2 BC. This is an important indicator of combat ability.
Aye but its a game.
BC has The same guns excepting PDS and pulsars.
Hc's arbiters are single barreled though. Both ships are the same length.
Yes Hc'd get owned. But its a mod
Sorry for lack of updates lately, but just as DW said - i've got my exams now.
However, i've worked some on the MS today:
Consider this more a teaser than an update, since i'll probably make some changes to the bridge shape to make it easier to add goblins where i want them. But on the other hand, the good news is that i finally got to the bridge area modelling
Ok, I guess we know the result. The ancient hc can't win unless there are alot of them.
Ah just wait till its out 8-)
I'm telling you. HW1 Ion Cannons, if replicated like they were in Homeworld 1, stand no chance against the battlecruiser. Per hit, the battlecruiser's ion beams do 20,000 damage. That's 80,000 damage. That's a lot. In fact, after one volley, the Heavy Cruiser would have 10,000 HP left. That's... that's not very much.
I tried to figure out how much damage a HW1 Heavy Cruiser's ion cannons do. I theorized that it was dealing the damage from the HW1 weapon files 16 times a second. So, take 4 ion cannons dealing 33 damage 16 times a second for 4 seconds. That's 8,448 damage. Or almost exactly one tenth the damage a BC can dish out.
Do you get the picture? A stock HW2 BC wouldn't just beat a HC. It would SMASH a HC. It would smash large numbers of Heavy Cruisers. If you attempt to argue that a HC's heavy guns would make a difference, you're still wrong. If my memory serves me, Heavy Guns spit 300 damage projectiles every 2.7 seconds. That's definately not enough to make up for the 8/9ths of a Heavy Cruiser's hit points blown away by the first volley fired by the BC. Not to mention the BC fields a total of 8 guns (4x2) that do something like 500 damage each and spit bullets significantly faster. I'm not sure what would happen if five heavy cruisers approached a BC. They might stand a chance of killing it, but would take casualties. Lots of casualties.
To reiterate: Yes, it's a mod. It's also trying to recreate HW1 pretty close to the way it actually was. Therefore, it's impossible to entertain the merest thought of OMG HC vs BC!!!!111. So, um... No. Not so much there.
#764
I think that once you guys release it I am going to set these ships against the ones from PDS, just to see who wins.
Should be entertaining.
Yeah but it should be dammed fun playin them all
By the way if any of you guys need someone who can use maya 5 and texture I dont mind helping out as long as my work load isnt to heavy as im converting ships from hw:C at present as well
I think the BC vs HC thing came up because the Kushan and the Taiidani fleets are going to be balanced to be at par with the Hiigaran and Vaygr fleets. I'm not sure about this, can someone confirm/clarify?
I've always really liked the look of the mothership bridge from the "early prototype" picture in the manual. It looks much more...I dunno elegant/weird/cool. I can scan it if you guys want a picture...
On BC vs. HC:
The point isn't who would win now, the point is: how should it work in the mod? The devs want to be able to make the two races able to play against one another in a balanced way.
One option is of course to just equalize the attributes of the HC and BC so they're effectively the same ship but with different models, but I don't think anyone really wants to do that...
Things we can control: cost, time to research, armor, armament, speed, special abilities (e.g. ability to build modules, damageable subsystems, etc.).
I'll leave the last one alone since we don't know the dev's opinion on that. Something to think about: physical size. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that the HC is going to appear much smaller than the BC since it's not as long and isn't flattened out like the BC. This suggests that HCs would be more maneuverable and speedy....I dunno, maybe one option is to decrease the time to research and cost of the BC, scale it up to be fairly fast and have the armament/armor of roughly 1.5-2 destroyers, and maybe add a special ability like anti-subsystem guns or something. Meanwhile, the BC would probably get an armor increase, slight firepower decrease, and cost/ttr increase.
Alternately, we could do the traditional model where the HC is huge, heavily armored, and very very slow. It would be very vulnerable to bomber attacks, and would take forever to kill. The devs might have to scale up the model a little though...
Meanwhile the BC should probably get a slight range increase and armor decreasem, along with a major speed increase. Equipped with cloaks and hyperspacing, they would be hit-and-run ships that would get easily torn apart in close quarters (by an HC or large fleet of frigates/destroyers). Primary targets would be their engines, since a good BC would rely on the ability to stay at the edge of a battle, out of the range of everyone else's guns. Bombers would be especially devastating to BCs.
*shrug* Those are two options. I'm sure there are more. Any other ideas?
Afaik they're balancing it. No point in having a fleet 10 times weaker than the enemy is there really?
yes avatar they're going for the realistic HW1 game, but not in the way of keeping exact sizes & models & weapon damage. They'll probably just scale them up to be near equal to their modern counterparts.
#769
We're staying as close as possible to the orignal Homeworld game. We are keeping relative scale somewhat the same as far as what their sizes were supposed to be in meters, then scaling down the strikecraft based on cockpit sizes. The Qwaar Jet has quite a bit more mass than the hw2 battle cruisers, and does look a lot heavier and slower but it's armed more like a battleship than a cruiser. Currently it seems like destroyers with a good frigate escort (frigates = cannon fodder/bait) are the easiest way to take down a hw1 HC.
We will not be balancing so much as we will be striving for HW1 style gameplay. If anything we're more likely to adjust hw2 ships to be more hw1 friendly than the other way around.
My money rest on the God of Pain no way some p***y higaran cruiser can beat it,if u want ur ass kicked its the best ship u can call on to do it,oh and by what i know the HC has no and never will have subsystems so by my point of view:HC hype's in takes out those ow so powerfull turrets(which if i recall have a small problem dealing with a ship below their arc)and bb BC.
Locust:This discusion will be resolved once we can match them up and see ho kicks hos ass into small nano-particles.
PS:Really the God of Pain has been refined by time and no upstart cruiser can really match it.
#771
personally I think having the HCs of the HW1 era outclass the HW2 BCs in all ways except possibly speed is acceptable, perhaps have them be a little more expensive though, and they *do* require a bit more research though research is free in HW1. To justify this for storyline purposes one could simply say that the hiigarans and vaygr opted for less massive, less expensive BCs instead of HCs because of shorter development times, and getting into battle faster. Furthermore the HW2 cruisers do not really fit the same role as a HW1 heavy cruiser anyway. The HW2 cruisers are more of an armed carrier than an assault craft. The HW1 cruisers are meant to deliver a maximum quantity of *PAIN* before they are destroyed. With a good escort of defense fighters and DFG frigates, not much can withstand the God of Pain.
Personally though I think the most effective HW1 ship that has no equivalent in HW2 is the taiidan multigun corvette. It's got more firepower and more coverage than most hw2 frigates, and is a skilled predator of all strikecraft and small cap ships. In large numbers they even pose a threat to large capships though they're better off escorting a HC.
hey guys
i just wanted to tell you that im back in the hw2 community after almost a year away...for now i do not plan to join the requiemwar team as an active member but ill send them everything they might need and help them with more complex stuff if i can...the first thing deathwish asked was the old website i sent him the version i had but its wasnt the online version so its a bit out to date but in the next few days ill try to figure where i put my damn backup cd
EE, Deathwish and Deimos youve made a great job considering that some members left after me and the fact that i left without warning.. :hmm:
i hope youll be able to release that mod anytime soon
- ZuiljiN
#773
Good to have you back in the community! I don't know about the others but I know that I would be incredibly excited to have you back on the team again, at least as a modeler / scripter. There are so many ships that have yet to be modeled or have been partially modeled but could use some tweaking.
I'd almost thought you'd never come back, I'm just glad you proved me wrong
:cranky:
Ah you old geezer!
Good to see you back
(And yeah, great job EE, Deathwish and Deimos :clap: )
Oh, come on.
#775
Wow, Zuiljin and No1 in our thread both on the same day! it's almost like the good ol' days again
WOW, IT'S Z! Welcome back! Personally, i'd be glad to have You back in the team too, especially once we get to the singleplayer part
Glad to see You in this tread, No1.
hey deimos
for the singleplayer i didnt looked into the files yet but if im right the first 3 missions was ready...speech..music animatics was converted to hw2 and the scripting was done too..the only thing that need to be done is the nis for each lvl...ill probably try to make the opening nis in the first mission in the next few weeks but before that you have to finish your MS
but many things still needs to be done to complete the sp..just converting speech music and animatics take alots of time..well anyway we will see for that later
Hey No1
i tried to look into some your works today in the studio section but i guess youve reached your limit cause every links for your pics was down..
Last edited by ZuiljiN; 14th Jun 05 at 12:07 AM.
if ZuiljiN is back, perhaps he can take a look at the NIS animations. If i remember well, he worked on it a little. Am i wrong ?
Deathwish: I agree with you about Heavy Cruisers. The way I've always seen it is that Battlecruisers are faster, more manuverable (probably cheaper, you're right), and more versatile (since they mount more point-defense weaponry, and can build subsystems like the Fire Control Tower). Whereas the HC is just a tank.
Hahahahahaha awesome . I thought we were never going to see ZuiljiN again! Plus he's boasting three missions :wowsers: .
hey guys, wow, nice to see ZuiljiN and no1 back in the community again!
just to say i have been working on the menu system, and it's at about 90% done, reason i've been away from it is i neded a bit of a break and i'm currently addicted to EVE Online lol
why all of the picture is ion cannon frigate??
#783
Just out of curiosity, is this team aware of the size difference between the fighters and corvettes of HW1 and HW2?
It seems everything has been shifted up a weight class- just compare the Kush assault frigate to any standard frigate- it's something like twice the size if you compare bridge blocks and assume the windows are the same size.
That being said it seems the BC is bigger, but has roughly the same armament as the CA. As suggested elsewhere in the PDS histories, the BC is a peacetime battlecruiser that's meant to replace the popular Avatar after Cata. So IMO they should be the same ship, just reclassified.
Native Taiidani
Author: Children of Kadesh, Children of Kadesh (book 2), The Taiidan Civil War, The Fire ,Tradition, Outcry (oneshot), Chronicles of the Nadiim-Basad,
and maker of the Map of the Homeworld universe, and the Homeworld 2 Grand Strategy Game. Responsible for Cataclysm 2nd. Also has a running short story collection.
I suggested the Battlecruisre was adapted for high manueverability, the "face first" procedure didn't work so well after the Hiigarans resorted to defense instead of offense.
Makes perfect sense in my book, but I'm sure Norse does not agree.
Just like I don't agree that a peacetime battlecruiser means anything. (sort of like having a light carrier instead of a full fledged carrier in your army because there is no more wars)
#785
How hard is it to grasp a peacetime battlecruiser? Arms reduction, ease of maintenance, and noneed for a tremenous killing machine (Before the invasion that is)
BTW inert, to enlighten you this is my Relic profile. I am also known as Norsehound.
But we are not here to talk about PDS or battlecruisers if they do not relate to the topic.
#786
Wow, ZuiljiN is back! That would be soo good if You join up again! i still remember when i got the first version of my Qwaar-Jet imported by You, as the first HW1 capital ship in HW2:-)
Ahh, if only this damn exams time would end, then i could do some serious progress again...
Ave Qwaar-Jet!
"Once again shall the great seas of space run red ...with the blood of Hiigara"
It's the middle of June and you still have Exams!?!?! o_0???
I meant coverage, but it is not worth arguing.
Anyways, Norse do you also notice that the corvette is relatively the same size as a frigate too? Bothers me like no other, and the frigate should have more options just by being twice the length of a corvette! Tch.
#789
HW2 corvettes are large, and appear to be nearly as large as Hw1 frigates, but I'm not entirely sure. I'd have to line them up side-by-side to be certain.
It does seem though that stock Hiigaran ships have a fighter cockpit control station- and no, I'm not talking about the Kopesh which have enough room to put a large bullseye sticker in.
I got exams next week so its not really new(the exams in june stuff).
#791
@Silver Wolf#: On topic comments please.
#792
i brought up the exams thing, so don't punish him, he just reacted to that.
Ceade, Inert, i think everyone sees the ships sizes different, according to his own liking. i have not much problems with this, because i love one of the largest ships of the HW universe. According to the 3D models, HW1's ships would dwarf HW2's equivalents. Also would they outrun, and outgun them.
However in RW -so HW1 vs HW2 battles are more enjoyable, and maps don't seem too small- we scale down HW1's ships to their HW2 counterparts (but we definitely think of HW1's scales as "real"!!). Their speed will also be adjusted (or a HW2 fighter won't be able to escape a HW1 frigate...). Despite all these refinements, the HW1 ships will be strong as hell, trust me!
The best example is the difference between the so beloved (but not by me!) Hiigaran BC (which not even has a ship-class name), and the Kushan Avatar class HC. Look on these both ships, first on the HW2 version, that has some tiny gun thingies scattered on it's hull, and is so sleek that i could break it in half myself. Then look on the HW1 Avatar, that huge beast, full with guns, firing 4 ion beams so that even one of them looks more devastating than all 4 on the Hiigaran BC...
and these 2 ships belong to the same race... unbelievable. Such an atavism in ship technology...
Locust:Its kinda on topic coz exams to seem to interfear with the mods progress from time to time,but if u wish on topic i shall remain.
E-Ent:By me the really messed up the ships in HW2 their just weak and to think we were fighting which of the BC and HC would win in a battle.And i can just see it now i a HW2 scout speeding along when suddenly a kushan frigate comes to it and blows it apart
hey EE
well i dont have too much time to work on that for now but i might find some to work on the singleplayer...ive made a new kharak model and ill make a straight convertion of the ms and the scafold so ill be able to work on the first nis..once its will be done ill send it on the ftp so youll be able to try it
other than that im not too sure what have been done since i left..ill speak more to deathwish about that this weekend
#795
ZuiljiN, i eagerly await any progress of You:-) SP would be just right, as we have currently zero knowledge of that. We've much more scripting challenges than modeling challenges before us...
Yeah, i'd sure like to see some progerss from You, Z
And here's something i've made today:
more details to come
id say its not great,maybe u should just texture the windows in that area.
#798
Please don't say "not great" on what is obviously a WIP shot. He said "made today" not "final form". It's polite not to pass final judgement on a WIP. Just an FYI
Nice model btw.
Last edited by Locutus; 18th Jun 05 at 10:43 PM.
#799
How interesting it would be to have the HW1 and HW2 Motherships side-by side on the same map. Or perhaps even more interesting would be to mod the SP campaign, and beleive that it is the same mothership from the exodus.
Heh, imagine the kushan forces against the Vaygr. That would be interesting.
Well, you would actually be seeing the MS01 in orbit around Hiigara, if it were to survive Makaan's initial invasion fleet.
EDIT: I had failed to see the WIP in question. Absolutly stunning, Deimos!
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Originally Posted by TBS
