Homeworld 2 Complex 8.4.3

[adamstrange]

So far the only thing i noticed is that the Mechgun ship [Khopesh in PDS6.0] behaves just like a pulsar corvette and are alot easier to destroy rather than as a heavy armored attacking fighter like in PDS.

This is not a complaint but just was wondering if it was done on purpose?

Also the Recicle Ability was misspelled.

It should be spelled Recycle.

[John Sheridan]

Great release, I've only played one round but I do like it. My only complaint is that for the cost and how easy it is to unluck, the Heavy Ion Cannon for the Mothership is a bit too powerful. One shot from the thing took off most of the health from the opponent's MS.

[DatonKallandor]

Ill have a look at that Beghins.


Daton

[Ionic]

As a possible suggestion about the Heavy Ion weapon on the hiig mothership being overpowered, perhaps it can be set to not penetrate defense fields? Or so that it can only penetrate when upgraded to do so?

[Axtumanu]

Normally defense field only stops missiles and projectile weapons, ion beams are unaffected. I dont know if you could make it so that one kind of ion beam would be affected, but if you could do that, it would be inconsistant.

Also, Vagyr dont really have defensive shields? Also, is it juts me, or is Hig overpowering compared to Vagyr in this mod? Hig seems to get more things, and the uber-battlecruiser.

[beghins]

John Sheridan:

Great release, I've only played one round but I do like it. My only complaint is that for the cost and how easy it is to unluck, the Heavy Ion Cannon for the Mothership is a bit too powerful. One shot from the thing took off most of the health from the opponent's MS.

Ionic:

As a possible suggestion about the Heavy Ion weapon on the hiig mothership being overpowered, perhaps it can be set to not penetrate defense fields? Or so that it can only penetrate when upgraded to do so?

Axtumanu:

Normally defense field only stops missiles and projectile weapons, ion beams are unaffected. I dont know if you could make it so that one kind of ion beam would be affected, but if you could do that, it would be inconsistant.

Yes, the Heavy Ion Cannon for the Mothership is a bit too powerful, I will ajust it in 3.1; defense shield stops ion weapons too, but with a different percentual, the only unit tha can penetrate the defense shield at 100% is the ion frigate but it need the upgrade "Shield Penetration" (Adv. Research, Fire Control tower).

Axtumanu:

Also, Vagyr dont really have defensive shields? Also, is it juts me, or is Hig overpowering compared to Vagyr in this mod? Hig seems to get more things, and the uber-battlecruiser.

Uhm, Higaaran is overpowering compared to Vagyr, another thing to ajust in 3.1...

AdamStrange:

Also the Recicle Ability was misspelled.
It should be spelled Recycle.

Thanks.

Legion166:

If you want, i could make a .big file and put it up.

No thanks Legion166, Complex 3.1 will be in .big format.

Isul:

I'm more than glad to help
btw where can i get an index of ships/tech items?
thanks

Take a look at your private messages, It's my intention create an interactive manual describing ships and weapons available during game...

[Qwaar-Jet]

The mod looks good, but I never have enough money to buy anything, I always seem to be struggling.What about putting back in the option for higher starting resources?

[BaalRoG]

good idea and another suggestion:

I like the idea of getting better and better weapon damages, but it does not make the fights more spectacular...

I would like to see techs which higher the shoot frequencies of every weapontype or shiptype (mostly the bigger ones), maybe with every tech step 10-20% to a maximum of twice the times now...

Maybe as a handicap they also reduce the damage of each weapon 5-10% with every step...

Its a little bit boring to wait for each ship shooting...

Another point:

Integrate 3 different weapon types:

1. long range weapons up to 25 km shootrange like Ionweapons and torpedos
2. middle range weapons up to 15 km shootrange like cannons, laser weapons
3. short range weapons like Point defense weapons and fighter weapons

Give Vaygr and Higara different beam/laser-weaponcolors

The point is, only bigger capital ships and torpedo/ion frigates should have type 1 and so on...

All these weaponranges could be based on techs which higher the range... maybe you start with weapon type 1 at 15 km and 2 techsteps later they fire 25 km...

Only ideas to make multiplayer fights more interesting and tactical...

[adamstrange]

What about putting back in the option for higher starting resources?

You could try 2 things:

[1] Install a Gamerule that has higher starting resources [ i know i have one ].

[2] Edit the DeathMatch starting resources.

-- starting resource option
{
name = "resstart",
locName = "Starting Resources",
tooltip = "CHOOSE THE AMOUNT OF STARTING RU'S",
default = 0,
visible = 0,
choices =
{
"Low (1000)", "1000",
"Medium (3000)", "3000",
"High (20000)", "20000",
-- "Off", "0", --resourcing disabled
},
},

[Axtumanu]

I really like the idea of reduced weapon cooldown times instead of increased damage. Perhaps you could have both, though dont put in a negative to the damage for a shorter cooldown, its useless to do so, because you get the same effect by not applying as much of a modifyer to the cooldown time.

[Knightsoul]

Downloaded and played this "Complex" mod: let me tell ya Beghins you've done a wonderful job.
I really like it, I found brilliant the gameplay balances choices you've made with this mod.
2 thumbs up!!! :nod:

[Jewegee]

Beghins-This is an outstanding mod! It is hard to beleive you've had to do it all yourself, so props to you. It has made homeworld alot more fun.

Also, I hear 3.1 will be released soon, so here are some things I noticed you might want to address...

While playing 3.0 I noticed some potential bugs for the hiigarans:
-the manufacturing controller subystems says that it unlocks "buil" upgrades. You need to add a "d" to the end.
-Bombers emerge from the MS damaged slightly (yes they are brand-new)
-even though I have all the required stuff in the research list, I still cannot research anti-missile systems nor callistoes for anything but the intruder. Is this intentional?
-All of a sudden, my MS started firing missiles. This was very appreciated, but how did I make it do that?

Suggestions:
-can you make a tech tree eventually so we can see what techs require what? For example, I was unable to figure out exactly what I need to get callistoes or anti-missile systems, so I had to look into the build scripts. I doubt most people know to do this (I still don't know how to get callistoes, or what they even are)
-perhaps renaming the death frigate. It sounds a bit lame IMO
-perhaps renaming the "pulsar laser". The homeworld 1 manual stated that Ion Cannons are not lasers, but particle beams. In the HW2 manual, it says that pulsars are "short wave" ion cannons. This means they are still particle beams.

thanks for all of your hard work, and your care in responding to each individual question

[John Sheridan]

I'll save beghins the time:

It's impossible to change weapon firing rates with an upgrade. Well, ok, it's possible to give a ship one such upgrade, but it wouldn't be compatible with most ships currently in Complex.

[Tel'Quessir]

No permission to release PDS models was given for the Complex mod. I don't exactly appreciate the lack of response from my PM either, nor do I respect the notion of asking for release permission way after said models were put into the mod in short ASSUMING it would be granted.

[BaalRoG]

nice community :fencing:

[Ionic]

I've mostly been playing around with the capship and frigate classes from this mod and I haven't seen any models from PDS. Although there was some post that one of the hiig fighters or corvetts looked like a pds model. Could someone name the offending ship?

uhoh tels angry... :hide:

[Jewegee]

the Hiigy Avenger and Mechgun I beleive, however I'm not sure...

Tel is angry for the people who made such ships. And he has good reason. As someone who has made my own ships, I know how much work goes into them, and I imagine it'd be a real pain to get them taken, tweaked and generally fiddled with without consent. However, I don't think this is such a case. I think this might just be a miscommunication. I hope that whoever imported them asked first.

I am going to quote SVK: " You do intend to get permission, right?"

[Tel'Quessir]

I had stated certain conditions where PDS ships could be deployed in the Complex mod. No acknowledgement was given by the creator of this mod and no permission was given to include Avenger and Khopesh ships into Complex anyway.

With the present status quo I'll skip all the fluff, save my own time on this and just say "no way you're going to use PDS ships" - if I'm the only person doing the talking, and see that the thing about giving credit is just one-way "look, we give credit!!" without my acknowledging the fact then that is NOT called diplomacy.

A similar thing occurred in the past - EX mod's creator posted a screenshot of early PDS modular weapon systems blatently ripped from v1.4x or so.

When the community pointed out that it is, a PDS thing and EX's author labelled the MWS as his own creation... said author simply "made his own" while saying "feature inspired by PDS" without any communication to myself or my team whatsoever.

So, in short - "giving credit" in the above manner is absolutely useless and changes nothing.

[adamstrange]

Tel is right,anyone who doesn't notice the Khopesh must be playing with a patch over one eye and a finger over the other.

Although i didn't know that the avenger was PDS material [thought i saw it in another mod],the Khopesh in the current Complex are missing an extra weapon [front hullgun] and they behave just like pularcorvettes.

I thought that the PDS team were going to have some of their ships in C:3.0 since i remember awhile back to an earlier thread about this.

[Tel'Quessir]

So that in fact breaches my conditions for PDS ships in complex: That the PDS flight models AND weapons configuration must stay, or no-go. Modifcation of weapons characteristics for balancing would be fine and would be adequate for adaptation without compromising the ships' identity.

Of course I've since simplified this to "PDS ships are no-go in Complex".

And I'll state the critical point again - that no acknowledgement or suggestions were given from the creator of Complex both now and in the original discussions for ship import.

[BaalRoG]

What is that here? Are you making a mod that should be seen like Open Scource? Why is PDS for free?
Why not ask for permission and get it, give credit and good?

These 2 mods can easily coexist with the same models without competition...

Am i the only one who has problems with this behaviour like "I made it, you cant get it, i am the best!"?

I dont understand this nonesense, we wouldnt have linux the way it is if everyone wishes his work to stay clean!

But in one way Tel is right... Permission should have been granted before taking shipmodels...
The thing is, i believe someone gave permission some time ago in another thread, but i cant remember when and where...


Maybe the anger comes up because Complex could become better than PDS? :omg:

I can understand that PDS should stay unique, but the community of homeworld 2 has only a few good modelers and many good coders who would like to make beautiful mods, but cant because of missing models...
Why not make them public for all to use?
We would all participate on it...

There wouldnt be a problem, if there would be a database with all models ever done and the creators name and some conditions when you can take it or not...

[beghins]

Jewegee:

Beghins-This is an outstanding mod! It is hard to beleive you've had to do it all yourself, so props to you. It has made homeworld alot more fun.
Also, I hear 3.1 will be released soon, so here are some things I noticed you might want to address...
While playing 3.0 I noticed some potential bugs for the hiigarans:
-the manufacturing controller subystems says that it unlocks "buil" upgrades. You need to add a "d" to the end.
-Bombers emerge from the MS damaged slightly (yes they are brand-new)
-even though I have all the required stuff in the research list, I still cannot research anti-missile systems nor callistoes for anything but the intruder. Is this intentional?
-All of a sudden, my MS started firing missiles. This was very appreciated, but how did I make it do that?

Thanks, build bug is fixed;
For Anti-missile system you need: Adv. Research, Platform Control Module, Defense Control Tower;
Callistoe is a speedly anti-Frigate/Capital Ship missile mounted only by Intruder, you need: Fighter Facility, Adv. Research, Fire Control Tower;
Your MS starts to fire missile because you've researched "Mothership Imp Defense" Ability, for this you need: Research, Defense Control Tower.

Suggestions:
-can you make a tech tree eventually so we can see what techs require what? For example, I was unable to figure out exactly what I need to get callistoes or anti-missile systems, so I had to look into the build scripts. I doubt most people know to do this (I still don't know how to get callistoes, or what they even are)
-perhaps renaming the death frigate. It sounds a bit lame IMO
-perhaps renaming the "pulsar laser". The homeworld 1 manual stated that Ion Cannons are not lasers, but particle beams. In the HW2 manual, it says that pulsars are "short wave" ion cannons. This means they are still particle beams.

Complex 4.0 will figure a research tree and a unit gallery, you can see something in the web site, maybe today;
Death Frigate... OK... ideas?
Pulsar Laser... OK.

thanks for all of your hard work, and your care in responding to each individual question

Thanks you, this kind of posts are what I'm looking for to improve Complex.

[Isul]

Creating a mod involves spending a great deal of time and patience, and like Jewegee said, a lot goes in it, especially when you have a busy RL, and everytime you do it means that you dont do something else.

However, mods have absolutely no copyright. They are custumizations build by players, and are then shared among their communities. HW2 has seen magnificent pieces of work since its creation, and it plain obvious modding is a shared experience. The great tutorials/tools at Karos Graveyard are the "living" proof of this. Interested people should check the Modernization Mod Page, http://homeworld2.petroglif.ru/ and especially the screenshots:
http://homeworld2.petroglif.ru/screenies.html

When working from original HW2 models it is likely to achieve the same end result if following the same concept (ex: if we want a "multigun" corvette form HW1 and are developing it from a higaran corvette chassis, then two independent modders would probably create similiar ships, the share the same starting point, working material and end product). On the other hand, a ship built from scratch such as the PDS CL is unique and, and in this case, plagiarism would be obvious. Concerning the Khopesh, the fact is that it got here first. It is a good ship and complies to the multigun corvette concept. Picking up a higaran corvette chassis and putting additional weapons would, most likely result in a similar ship, so are all eventual future versions of multigun corvettes be accused of copying the Khopesh? What about the in-development higaran gunboats using the minelayer corvette as basis? Complex 3 introduced the Minegun corvette, so will they be a copy? Should beghins do something?

Modding is about sharing, and if someone develops good material chances are other players will try to pick them up and tweak them. Is this bad? or rather a sign that people like their work so much that they are willing to spend hours reading the tutorials just to customized it?

PDS quality speaks for itself, and i'm sure everyone recognizes and acknowledges its work, even if it is in other mods.

Complex, along with PDS, is top of the actual HW2 mods, and it is thanks to the effort of all these people that we can enjoy these great works.

A model database would be great!

[Jewegee]

Legally, a modeler has no copy rights or anything (thanks to relic. But then again, none of this would be possible without relic). Nevertheless, what would happen if great modelers suddenly stopped releasing their ships to the average joe homeworld fan? We would be stuck with what we have (which is great albeit, but there will be more to come I'm sure), in stasis. By respecting the intentions of the modding community, we make it better for all. Happy modellers tend to be less hesitant to share their work. If we respect their talent, they will share it with us. If we piss them off, they might not.....


As far as renaming goes:
-Possible new name for the death frigate: Lancer Frigate,
Electronic -Warfare frigate, fire-support frigate. Some other
name that hints at its purpose?
-possible names for the Pulsar laser: Pulsed Particle Beam, Pulse Ion Cannon, Short Duration Particle Beam/Ion cannon, fast-tracking IC

[Isul]

You're right Jewegee, thus the value of having an on-line model database with corresponding credits and acknowledgements. However this should be applied only to truly new designs (like the Liirha and the Avenger) and not to original HW2 models.

[beghins]

About the discussion above:
Models we're speaking of are Avenger and Mechgun ("Shiri" Avenger Mk.3 and Khopesh Assault Gunship in PDS).
I asked for permission and the PDS team response, in fact, has been: you can use models, but without changing of fly models and weapons. I've understood, but really I didn't imagine they're so severe.
Anyway, the fact is this: I'm interested in importing models in Complex, but nothing about PDS fly models and weapon configurations, the two project are too different and guard to a too different kind of gameplay too.
I wanna be glad to receive a response from the author of those two accused models (Jodonnell for the Avenger and for the Mechgun too, I think), my question is: Can I use your models in the next Complex version?
I hope you agree, no one make money with mods and all we're doing is for our hobby and for the community.
If your response will be no, OK, I'll cut them from the public release and I will ask to Complex team to change something in your models in order to continue to use them in Complex.
Consider that a lot of people are placing their eyes over Complex and I'm speaking of a durature collaboration in creating ships and new features.
Complex team now consists of professional staff and want develops a great space RTS, without any kind of commercial ties.
Thanks, let me know, ciao.

[DatonKallandor]

Yes. You should not forget that the models are not PDS property but the modellers property. Modeller was James, thus he should be the one asked for permission.


Daton

[DeliriumTremens]

Guys

the discussion has no sense!
Everyone has to be proud to watch his own models in Complex. It's absolutely the best MOD

Great job!

[adamstrange]

Electronic -Warfare frigate

PERFECT NAME

but nothing about PDS fly models and weapon configurations, the two project are too different and guard to a too different kind of gameplay too.

I agree,i really don't want frigates behaving like slow drunk fighters,circling around upside down like the way they do in PDS...sorry PDS but as soon as you release a new version,me and my trusty Notepad are fast at work.

I would not want to be a mechanic aboard any of their pitching and tumbling carriers or shipyard,not to mention all those munnitions and torpedos bobbing about in their compartments :fright:

By the way,how does the Minegun Corvette deploy its mines after you upgraded to its mine deploying system?

The text on the build lists it as "AUTOMATIC" but i never see it deploy any nor is there a button on the interface to do so.

[beghins]

By the way,how does the Minegun Corvette deploy its mines after you upgraded to its mine deploying system?

The Minegun is an anti-Fighter/Corvette unit, so, its mines are anti-fighter/corvette; send an handful of Minegun into a fighter/corvette battle and you will see the automatic mine deploying system.

Warfare Frigate

OK, name is good and has been changed.

[Locutus]

There was indeed discussion in the past about this issue in the past, and Beghins may have taken this as permission. This is not a repeat of the Genesis mod issue, where IP was blatenly ripped off and no credit given.

I'm going to make a ruling here, and I expect both parties to abide by it. If you don't like it, take the issue up with Delphy, who has already approved this ruling.

It is too late to delete the PDS material within his mod, since he has already balanced the mod for the ships he has. Therefore I am going to issue the following ruling:

Beghins MUST add to the Complex 3.0 readme file that he used ships developed by James O'donnell for the PDS mod without permission, and include an apology within the readme file.

Beghins must also post a thread in the Main discussion area of Tanis apologizing to the community for his breech of the RDN IP guidelines in the announcement.

Tel'Quessir must post an apology for the rash and aggressive comments he has made and in effect demanding that an already completed mod be altered to suit his demands.

Beghins must also remove all PDS material in his next version of the Complex mod unless Tel'Quessir grants him permisssion posted in the Complex Thread to use PDS material in the future.

I am going to lock the Complex thread and edit out the download link until I am satisfied that the conditions have been met.

EDIT: There is currently a thread in Forum Issues discussing this.
EDIT(2): Thread in Forum Issues closed by Delphy.
Judging by the thread in FI Complex mod is leaving the Relic Boards as Beghins is unwilling to abide by the terms for re-opening the thread.

[Locutus]

Thread re-opened following discovery of evidence that James did indeed authorize use of the relevent models.

I expect an apology from Tel'Quessir will follow shortly.

[Tel'Quessir]

First, I recognise the moderators' statements above regarding my actions - the deployment of PDS models within Complex in the present manner came as a surprise to me as the ships' modeller in question never did update me on anything to that regard.

Thus I acted as I had seeing that beghins did release Complex 3 without waiting for me to review his asking me for permission, and did not reply to both my PMs seeking clarification on the matter and my previous posts on this thread regarding use of PDS models. Obviously someone thinks it proper to keep me out of the loop.

Nevertheless, I bear full responsibility for the distruption of Complex mod operations.

[theDrinker]

Beghins, wait you for a beer!
Complex is come back!

[BigFish]

Beghins could consider trading some of his models/scripts with PDS in return for the models. Or have a competition to design and model replacements - great way to get extra publicity for Complex and get some new moddling talant involved in the Homworld community.

Cooperate and itll all be fine

[Tel'Quessir]

No offense to your happiness but if you want to start celebrating think of it as insulting my efforts in getting the above post done in an acceptable manner just so you can get this thread back on track.

[sanityflare]

Beghins feel free to use any of my models or request any models hodded. The modding community isnt all bad

Hell I have a few ships up my sleave I have halfe done.



The rear and the side guns arnt done so put a place holder on that butif you want it Ill have it done after i finish the t-mat

[adamstrange]

Snake...what the hell is that

[sanityflare]

an ion bc

1100 polys
512x512 texture
64x128 engine texture and 32x32 badge texture


Good uv`s make it look higher res than it is

[adamstrange]

Another thing that i noticed but don't know if its the mod or the game's AI but i was just playing on this really huge map that i created and i set it up so that i had 1 cpu allie against 4 cpu enemies.

Well the cpu allie was a damn waste of cpu resource because it kept building but never attacked the enemy...it just kept building and building ,staying in its base.

Computer slowed down to a crawl so the only way to remedy this was to save the game,create a really powerful nuke missile,target the enemy scout ship just above my cpu allie,a flash of light later...everything is much better.

[BaalRoG]

well it surly attacks, but after a long time and with many many ships...

But one thing is a problem, the ai can easily be overrun at the beginning on expert by human players... i think it is because of the 1000 credits at the beginning which isnt enough to hurry up building cycles...

I would prefer a start with 2500 credits...
Would be enough to build up a harvest control module and 2 additional harvesters...

[Isul]

As it should be.

Congrats to everyone for solving this issue with sense.

Welcome back behgins!!!!!!


PS: thank you TheDrinker!

[beghins]

OK, thanks and thanks to all community for assistance and for affection on Complex; expecially theDrinker, your contribution has been determinant, once for all I will send that bear and I will insert you and someone other in Complex credits has special thanks! And this is the minimum I can do.
I,m a few deluse, anyway a sort of kind of web site is on-line, see the first threat, www.Homeworld2Complex.com, it must be ajourned, I've done it in a couple of hour, here you will find information about the project and in September (cause I'm leaving Milan for holiday) you will be able to downlad new versions of Complex.
SnakeChiken,

Beghins feel free to use any of my models or request any models hodded. The modding community isnt all bad

Thanks, read your PM and seen your model pics, thanks for your precious help; If you want model for Complex I need specific units, now we're designing for an Hiigaran Hyperspace Gate, and for a Collector Guard (Hiigaran and Vaygr, a sort of chage in which collectors can speedly dock in case of an hyperspace enemy attack). Obviously I consider any other model, let me know, if you still have no try Complex, download and try it, then, let me know if and what would you like model for Complex; has I've just typed:

Consider that a lot of people are placing their eyes over Complex and I'm speaking of a durature collaboration in creating ships and new features.
Complex team now consists of professional staff and want develops a great space RTS, without any kind of commercial ties.

I wish you spend an incredible beautifull summer!

[DougalMcFrugal]

Is anyone having any issues actually playing complex 3.0? it crashes right back to desktop when i try and launch any player VS CPU game. Nearly makes it too, gets as far as LOADSCARSCRIPT then boots me right out. HW2 original still works fine and I'm on version 1.1. Have removed MOD files and replace them but no change. Any ideas anyone?

[sanityflare]

humm. Have you any custom effects in there you forgot to remove?

[DougalMcFrugal]

not that I can think of, I had PDS installed before, but removed all the files. Maybe I just need to re-install everything from scratch

[DougalMcFrugal]

well uninstalled HW2, reinstalled, applied patch, extracted complex. Ran the game, complex mod in place, launched a straight forward 2p me vs CPU and it booted me back to windows again just as the battle was about to start.

argh!

[sanityflare]

when you unistall delete the entire dir after the uninstall as it leaves modded files in place.

[Nekokaburi]

just remember to keep the animatics directory and the .big files when you delete the other stuff in the directory :P

[DougalMcFrugal]

its now working perfectly

not that I changed anything

weirdness

ah well, complex looks pretty cool so far!